Understanding the North Korean nightmare.

[elvoys]

http://www.workers.org/2017/08/14/self-defense-and-the-dprk/

 

As it was always so. Some among the socialists workers set actually see NK as the victims here and I'd wager many others don't think its black and white.

 

I await mass protests on campus and shitting down of totalitarian apologist speakers. Or not.

[Ibrahim Tall]

NK apparently prepping missiles at the moment according to the South. Atmospheric nuclear test to follow?

[Jambo, Goodbye]

Today's reaction from the locals - "slightly irritated"

[...a bit disco]

Today's reaction from the locals - "slightly irradiated"

 

Fixed.

[doctor jambo]

Someone is going to have to lose face here

Neither of the protagonists are the kind that will like that prospect

Shame the good old days when America would have surreptitiously funded a coup in North Korea have gone, as it would seem the ideal solution

[jumpship]

America letting south Korea put larger pay loads in to their missiles.

 

Question, whats the point. The nutter in the north doesnt care about his people. he's not going to care if the South destroy/kill more innocents in the north.

[Ibrahim Tall]

America letting south Korea put larger pay loads in to their missiles.

 

Question, whats the point. The nutter in the north doesnt care about his people. he's not going to care if the South destroy/kill more innocents in the north.

There isn't really, larger missiles also won't prevent conventional artillery annihilating a city of 10m+ in the opening hours of a war either.

If anything I'd imagine it's a nudge to China to get its finger out as they don't particularly want a nuclear armed South Korea and Japan.

[Cruyff Turn]

Its getting a bit too serious now. There is really nothing anyone, apart from China maybe, can do about this wee Asian Eric Cartman type creature.

 

The Americans could probably manage to annihilate most the DPRKs defences but it will come at a huge cost to the South, even if they managed to destroy 90% of the DPRKs Artillery and strike capabilities, Seoul will still probably be destroyed.

 

Hopefully the UK govt keeps their Bugles out of this one, instead of grand standing alongside the Sceptic Tanks. We really have no vested interest in that part of the Globe anyway.

 

Donald Trump is certainly the wrong President to deal with this wee raj. He just continues to escalate the situation with his bravado and complete lack of tact or diplomacy.

[Alwayssunnyingorgie]

Scotland are in with a great shout qualifying and the world is gonna be blown to bits

 

Can we not let him play with his missiles and just shoot them out the sky?

[Boab]

Scotland are in with a great shout qualifying and the world is gonna be blown to bits

 

Can we not let him play with his missiles and just shoot them out the sky?

 

Hibs winning the big cup was as big a portent of doom as anything in the past.

[Sidelight]

http://www.workers.org/2017/08/14/self-defense-and-the-dprk/

 

As it was always so. Some among the socialists workers set actually see NK as the victims here and I'd wager many others don't think its black and white.

 

I await mass protests on campus and shitting down of totalitarian apologist speakers. Or not.

We are locking at a massive American nuclear first strike, to take out the fat demonic chipmunk.

[luckyBatistuta]

 

I know we haven't agreed on quite a few things on here, but this whole horrible situation must be a lot worse for you, being where you are. Hopefully all this madness will sort itself out peacefully moving forward. Stay safe mate

[luckyBatistuta]

We are locking at a massive American nuclear first strike, to take out the fat demonic chipmunk.

Sure China is going to love a massive American nuclear first strike next door.

[Cade]

We are locking at a massive American nuclear first strike, to take out the fat demonic chipmunk.

That will defo not have any wider problems at all (what, with China and Russia both sharing a border with NK)

 

For the USA to be the only nation to have unilaterally used nuclear weapons once (needlessly) before in WW2 then again in 2017 whilst at the same time have spent the intervening 70 years bombing the shite out of and invading anybody else even SUSPECTED to have weapons of mass destruction will forever mark them as a rogue state that does as it wishes in the eyes of many billions of people around the globe and embolden the REAL threats of Russia and China.

 

Not only that, it will make Pakistan and India more likely to use their nuke in the next Kashmir war (skirmishes there have been more or less ongoing ever since partition).

 

And in Syria, the rampant hypocrisy of the USA trying to gather a multinational coalition together to get rid of Assad due to chemical weapons use when nuking North Korea will further strengthen the regime there.

 

This entire situation calls for cold, rationality. Sadly, the leaders around the world at the moment are 90% bampot.

 

It's a strange situation when the Chinese seem to be the most stable, serious players.

[Sharpie]

I am amazed at how relaxed people seem to be in this crisis.  To be honest I am not majorly concerned, I am way too old to be worried about my mortality.  It was quite a bit different for me in 1962 when the Cuban missile crisis raised its ugly head.  I recall working the Niddrie beat, and went into the gas station on Niddrie Mains Road to use the facilities.  It was on the radio about the missiles and what could happen, I walked out of there really shocked, my wife was pregnant with our son, my life was good, but the potential of atomic warfare was still something to fear after having seen the results of Hiroshima.  I really hope cooler heads prevail, that it sorts itself out with a peaceful resolution, war regardless of where it happens in the world is bad, nuclear war is really bad.

[luckyBatistuta]

I am amazed at how relaxed people seem to be in this crisis.  To be honest I am not majorly concerned, I am way too old to be worried about my mortality.  It was quite a bit different for me in 1962 when the Cuban missile crisis raised its ugly head.  I recall working the Niddrie beat, and went into the gas station on Niddrie Mains Road to use the facilities.  It was on the radio about the missiles and what could happen, I walked out of there really shocked, my wife was pregnant with our son, my life was good, but the potential of atomic warfare was still something to fear after having seen the results of Hiroshima.  I really hope cooler heads prevail, that it sorts itself out with a peaceful resolution, war regardless of where it happens in the world is bad, nuclear war is really bad.

I've been watching and reading about this most days like everyone on here probably has. I've not been overly concerned, thinking that it will all sort itself out somehow, but I'm now starting to get a bit more worried about it now, as it seems to be escalating with each passing day. I think what concerns me most is the fact that we've got an egotistical lunatic in either corner, calm heads are needed.

[michael_bolton]

I know we haven't agreed on quite a few things on here, but this whole horrible situation must be a lot worse for you, being where you are. Hopefully all this madness will sort itself out peacefully moving forward. Stay safe mate

[ZeroHour]

I think appeasement has failed. North Korea simply by detonating H-bombs - many times more powerful than Hiroshima - pose a risk to the planet, something so powerful deep underground could shift tetonic plates. That could create a catastrophic earthquake and tsunami putting many lives at risk around Asia. It's time to remove the North Korean regime.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I think appeasement has failed. North Korea simply by detonating H-bombs - many times more powerful than Hiroshima - pose a risk to the planet, something so powerful deep underground could shift tetonic plates. That could create a catastrophic earthquake and tsunami putting many lives at risk around Asia. It's time to remove the North Korean regime.

 

Seems pretty obvious that nothing much will happen. Lots of talk of 'could and might' do this or that but it's all rhetoric.

[John Findlay]

Been here seen that all before and got several T shirts. Not losing any sleep whatsoever.

[Sidelight]

That will defo not have any wider problems at all (what, with China and Russia both sharing a border with NK)

 

For the USA to be the only nation to have unilaterally used nuclear weapons once (needlessly) before in WW2 then again in 2017 whilst at the same time have spent the intervening 70 years bombing the shite out of and invading anybody else even SUSPECTED to have weapons of mass destruction will forever mark them as a rogue state that does as it wishes in the eyes of many billions of people around the globe and embolden the REAL threats of Russia and China.

 

Not only that, it will make Pakistan and India more likely to use their nuke in the next Kashmir war (skirmishes there have been more or less ongoing ever since partition).

 

And in Syria, the rampant hypocrisy of the USA trying to gather a multinational coalition together to get rid of Assad due to chemical weapons use when nuking North Korea will further strengthen the regime there.

 

This entire situation calls for cold, rationality. Sadly, the leaders around the world at the moment are 90% bampot.

 

It's a strange situation when the Chinese seem to be the most stable, serious players.

 

Cade, the rabbit hole is very deep and selfishness and hypocrisy reign.

Much of what you write is a reality, but we have been taught to believe, and the residuals of the world wars still echo, that the West, America, Britain and Allies are morally and intellectually superior, better. There was a time when I would have believed that and that our Government would never lie to its people. How naive.

China a ?stable and serious player? in what way?

They are happy to use the NK situation to wave a proxy geopolitical stick against America. You can be sure that China will exploit the climate to suit their own agenda.

 

 

[Rab87]

Seems pretty obvious that nothing much will happen. Lots of talk of 'could and might' do this or that but it's all rhetoric.

 

The rhetoric is being stepped up big time in the last 48 hours.

 

If the current trend continues, something WILL have to happen. 

 

I am not sure that KJU is quite  the rational and calculating figure that some have made him out to be.

 

There is A LOT at stake here, but these things can spiral out of control very quickly.

[iantjambo]

Let's be honest, we've lived under the fear of nuclear war since the late 40's and while those fears were reduced considerably with the end of the Cold War in '91, the threat has never completely went away.

 

I'm not going to lose sleep over this latest crisis.

 

NK won't launch a first strike because even if they don't get completely flattened by the a counter strike then they'll just severely piss off China and Russia for bringing trouble to their doorstep.

 

The mere suggestion of a US first strike is just laughable, the repercussions behind such an action doesn't even bear thinking about.

[doctor jambo]

I think appeasement has failed. North Korea simply by detonating H-bombs - many times more powerful than Hiroshima - pose a risk to the planet, something so powerful deep underground could shift tetonic plates. That could create a catastrophic earthquake and tsunami putting many lives at risk around Asia. It's time to remove the North Korean regime.

THe only ones who could do that are China

If the USA moves perhaps millions of south Koreans would die

[Ibrahim Tall]

The rhetoric is being stepped up big time in the last 48 hours.

 

If the current trend continues, something WILL have to happen.

 

I am not sure that KJU is quite the rational and calculating figure that some have made him out to be.

 

There is A LOT at stake here, but these things can spiral out of control very quickly.

Tbh it's not even a case of rationality, hes in a position where he can't afford to lose face. If he backs down with the nuclear testing and missile launches without atleast the excuse of American concessions, aid etc then he looks weak.

Him being seen as the 'strong' supreme leader is the only thing that's keeping the military on side, if that image is lost it could stir up unrest in NK and its military.

Problem being that Trump isnt an Obama or Clinton etc, he's cultivated his own 'strongman' image and can't afford to concede ground either.

[Sidelight]

That will defo not have any wider problems at all (what, with China and Russia both sharing a border with NK)

 

It's a strange situation when the Chinese seem to be the most stable, serious players.

It?s clear, that China would welcome a scenario where SK and other surrounding nations are less politically aligned with America.

This would result in the build-up of military hardware around China?s borders being curtailed.

If NK is decapitated, the threat which motivates the SK/American alliance would be greatly diminished.

Again this suits China?s agenda, with economic Asia/Pacific expansion their goal.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

The rhetoric is being stepped up big time in the last 48 hours.

 

If the current trend continues, something WILL have to happen. 

 

I am not sure that KJU is quite  the rational and calculating figure that some have made him out to be.

 

There is A LOT at stake here, but these things can spiral out of control very quickly.

 

But it's all "if this happens, then we might do this". Been going on for days/weeks now. Nothing will happen.

 

I mean, at the UN security council meeting the US was asking the UN to impose stricter sanctions on North Korea like that will make any difference and hasn't been tried before.

 

The US aren't going to do shit, and North Korea most certainly aren't going to invite a firestorm. Kim's not as stupid as his haircut.

[Escobar PHM]

THe only ones who could do that are China

If the USA moves perhaps millions of south Koreans would die

China wouldn't tolerate the US moving on NK on that sort of scale. Trump knows this. China are watching on with interest and learning every day but as soon as KJU steps over the mark (the Chinese mark, not the Trump mark) the Chinese will move in and change the regime one way or another. He wont be left there to spark a bloodbath in the region  and they (NK) cant unilaterally trigger a world war IMO. They'd be erased from the map before an Nuclear ICBM left their airspace.

 

At the moment the situation is amusing China. As soon as they stop being amused, they'll take him out.

 

I worry that Trump will get trigger happy if they fire a missile anywhere in the vicinity of Guam but hopefully he's got enough brainpower in the military and in the NS advisor, to head that off.

[Rab87]

But it's all "if this happens, then we might do this". Been going on for days/weeks now. Nothing will happen.

 

I mean, at the UN security council meeting the US was asking the UN to impose stricter sanctions on North Korea like that will make any difference and hasn't been tried before.

 

The US aren't going to do shit, and North Korea most certainly aren't going to invite a firestorm. Kim's not as stupid as his haircut.

 

The rhetoric has been ramped up in the last few days, in my opinion.

 

The word "war" is now being banded about at the UN, and Global leaders like Putin and Xi, are openly discussing how devastating a conflict would be. 

 

If NK fires towards Guam, over Japan, or conducts an atmospheric test, things will happen. Another missile test is somewhat expected this week, possibly on Saturday.

 

Japan is already talking about evac plans for it's citizens in South Korea.

 

You are right when you say words have been exchanged for weeks and months now, but, we cannot continue on the upward trend we are on for long, without anything happening. 

[Maple Leaf]

An American first strike would be catastrophic.  Despite America's much vaunted military prowess, they're not perfect and a preemptive strike would simply kick off a major conflict in the area.  They would not get all NK's missile and artillery sites with their first strike, leaving NK with the ability to hit back hard, probably at Seoul.  

 

I'm hoping that all Trump's brash talk is nothing more than bravado, and that the generals will advise him against doing anything rash.  This is clearly a problem from hell, as there are no obvious or easy solutions.  As much as I hate to see any life lost, it might be best for all concerned if the Chinese arrange for KJU to die in his sleep, from natural causes, of course.

[Boris]

An American first strike would be catastrophic.  Despite America's much vaunted military prowess, they're not perfect and a preemptive strike would simply kick off a major conflict in the area.  They would not get all NK's missile and artillery sites with their first strike, leaving NK with the ability to hit back hard, probably at Seoul.  

 

I'm hoping that all Trump's brash talk is nothing more than bravado, and that the generals will advise him against doing anything rash.  This is clearly a problem from hell, as there are no obvious or easy solutions.  As much as I hate to see any life lost, it might be best for all concerned if the Chinese arrange for KJU to die in his sleep, from natural causes, of course.

 

I wonder if China, and to an extent Russia, are allowing this to develop as much as to see exactly what Trump is (or isn't) made of.

[doctor jambo]

I wonder if China, and to an extent Russia, are allowing this to develop as much as to see exactly what Trump is (or isn't) made of.

That would be pretty much in keeping with communist thinking

Cost millions of lives to see if something works

[maroonlegions]

That would be pretty much in keeping with communist thinking

Cost millions of lives to see if something works

 What like the Vietnam war and the dropping of that bomb on Hiroshima , just good old  western capitalist thinking. 

 

The NK leader is more of a loony than a communist , i would  bet my last yankee dollar on that reality.

[doctor jambo]

 What like the Vietnam war and the dropping of that bomb on Hiroshima , just good old  western capitalist thinking. 

 

The NK leader is more of a loony than a communist , i would  bet my last yankee dollar on that reality.

I was more thinking about collective farming, and communist/ socialist economic policy

And infact health care policy re mental health etc in soviet type states- Romania/hungary etc

The west have of course made glaring mistakes in this regard though little on the scale of the left

[Boris]

That would be pretty much in keeping with communist thinking

Cost millions of lives to see if something works

 

I wasn't really thinking about it from an ideological perspective (not to mention the current lack of ideology that can be attributed to Chinese & perhaps more especially N.Korean communism from a particularly Marxist perspective) but rather more from a general realpolitik.

 

The Chinese are historically adept at being quite and thoughtful, yet understanding what is going on.  Trump is pretty much a wild card.  Perhaps this is a test for him, one they can stop when they like?

 

As has been mentioned, war is in no ones interest, least of all China and the USA.

[Boris]

I was more thinking about collective farming, and communist/ socialist economic policy

And infact health care policy re mental health etc in soviet type states- Romania/hungary etc

The west have of course made glaring mistakes in this regard though little on the scale of the left

 

Dunno, Nazi Germany must have made some inroads into "balancing the books" if that's what you are after.

[doctor jambo]

Dunno, Nazi Germany must have made some inroads into "balancing the books" if that's what you are after.

The Nazis were in many ways very socialist

particularly with regards economic policy

high borrowing and then spending on manufacturing and public expenditure (including the military) but also VW etc, construction and so on

but granted, yes, the far right are generally fruit cakes too

[Boris]

The Nazis were in many ways very socialist

particularly with regards economic policy

high borrowing and then spending on manufacturing and public expenditure (including the military) but also VW etc, construction and so on

but granted, yes, the far right are generally fruit cakes too

 

They weren't really socialist.  They threw that in to get public support.  Granted, not your run of the mill capitalist economists, but the Junkers and Krupps were happy to deal with them.  In fact big business bankrolled them due to their fervent anti-bolshevism.

 

In the same way as Buffaloes don't have wings, Nazi's aren't socialists.

[doctor jambo]

They weren't really socialist.  They threw that in to get public support.  Granted, not your run of the mill capitalist economists, but the Junkers and Krupps were happy to deal with them.  In fact big business bankrolled them due to their fervent anti-bolshevism.

 

In the same way as Buffaloes don't have wings, Nazi's aren't socialists.

 

Indeed

The rejuvenation of the German economy under them and the employment boom was largely fictional (ie it was real but was achieved through public employment and sleight of hand) in much the same way the UK is currently

[Boab]

Nixon's " madman theory " comes into play here.

 

His advisors putting it out to Hanoi that he was nuclear ready !

 

Problem is, it didn't work !

 

This time, the Russians and Chinese will listen, and seem to be, because there is a real madman in charge. Not a theory anymore but good for Trump's top brass. They can lever the Chinese with this nutcracker at the helm.

[JudyJudyJudy]

China will intervene military. Its the best option and most sensible.

[jake]

My understanding of this was that both north and south Korea wanted a peace treaty.

The USA refused.

 

I also thought that the Morth Koreans would freeze their nuclear weapons programme if the US ceased the war games in the region.

Both Russia and China agreed with this but again the USA refused.

 

Who really is the aggressor ?

[Debut 4]

My understanding of this was that both north and south Korea wanted a peace treaty.

The USA refused.

I also thought that the Morth Koreans would freeze their nuclear weapons programme if the US ceased the war games in the region.

Both Russia and China agreed with this but again the USA refused.

Who really is the aggressor ?

The Rothchilds....apparently.

[jake]

The Rothchilds....apparently.

 

Its actually very easy to find these facts out for yourself.

As they are indeed facts.

But i can see how you wish to put these facts and me down.

 

Go on check for yourself.

[jake]

Bad iraq bad lybia bad syria bad north korea.

All the former three based on lies fact.

 

The USA currently spends 55% of its budget of milatary .

Drops bombs on a daily basis.

Interferes in every region of the world.

 

Shall i go on.

 

Allies itself to regimes as brutal and backward if not more so than North Korea.

 

And it makes no difference if its a democrat or republican in office.

These policies are not decided on 4 year terms.

 

Oh by the way i was called a conspiracy nut about Syria.

[Maple Leaf]

Bad iraq bad lybia bad syria bad north korea.

All the former three based on lies fact.

 

The USA currently spends 55% of its budget of milatary .

Drops bombs on a daily basis.

Interferes in every region of the world.

 

Shall i go on.

 

Allies itself to regimes as brutal and backward if not more so than North Korea.

 

And it makes no difference if its a democrat or republican in office.

These policies are not decided on 4 year terms.

 

I don't disagree with any of that.

 

But the fact remains that the situation with NK is very dangerous, and a misstep by either NK or the USA could have catastrophic consequences for everyone.  And there doesn't seem to be an easy solution. 

[Jambo-Jimbo]

Bad iraq bad lybia bad syria bad north korea.

All the former three based on lies fact.

 

The USA currently spends 55% of its budget of milatary .

Drops bombs on a daily basis.

Interferes in every region of the world.

 

Shall i go on.

 

Allies itself to regimes as brutal and backward if not more so than North Korea.

 

And it makes no difference if its a democrat or republican in office.

These policies are not decided on 4 year terms.

 

Oh by the way i was called a conspiracy nut about Syria.

 

The 'West' is by no means perfect, far from it in fact, however I'd much rather live in the UK or USA with the perceived freedoms which I enjoy, than live in Russia, China, North Korea or the likes, at least I don't need to worry about that dreaded knock at the door.

[Debut 4]

Its actually very easy to find these facts out for yourself.

As they are indeed facts.

But i can see how you wish to put these facts and me down.

Go on check for yourself.

I actually wasnt having a pop, just a lighthearted joke.

 

But anyway, what facts?

 

Have you done investigative work yourself? Seen it for yourself? Spoke to people, seen things happen for yourself and recorded it?

 

Fair play if you have.

 

Most of us live by some form of propaganda , news or information in whatever form it comes in.

 

PS...I wish the big bad Yanks never stuck their noses in every corner of the globe in WW2. They were just a hindrance...

[jake]

I don't disagree with any of that.

 

But the fact remains that the situation with NK is very dangerous, and a misstep by either NK or the USA could have catastrophic consequences for everyone. And there doesn't seem to be an easy solution.

 

It is a very dangerous situation.

But it has to be acknowledged that it is the US which continually constructs these conflicts.

Perhaps all though unlikely to ever happen the world should impose embargoes on the US.

I wonder what would be the reaction.

Little doubt in my view .

 

The US has been responsible for trouble in south america eastern europe north africa middle east and south east asia.

They have manufactured conflicts.

 

And yet its reported otherwise.

[jake]

I actually wasnt having a pop, just a lighthearted joke.

 

But anyway, what facts?

 

Have you done investigative work yourself? Seen it for yourself? Spoke to people, seen things happen for yourself and recorded it?

 

Fair play if you have.

 

Most of us live by some form of propaganda , news or information in whatever form it comes in.

 

PS...I wish the big bad Yanks never stuck their noses in every corner of the globe in WW2. They were just a hindrance...

 

Glad they did stick their nose in.

But it actually was Russian blood that won Europe.

Not a very nice regime.

The US cannot be excused because of ww2 .

 

No to answer your other points.

I when seeing the headlines always ask the opposite .

Im not academic but a little search usually shows up things which are conveniently forgotten.

Or tucked away.

Its really not that difficult.

I just dont believe what we are told straight away anymore.

And with pretty good reasons.

 

Syria was a shameful reflection of our news outlets .

Left and right.