Sainsbury's parking tickets

[Doctor FinnBarr]

Parking have only prosecuted 3 people in hospital car parks in last ten years

 

Throw it away they can't prosecute under Scottish law

 

Now theres a thing, I thought the SNP had made all hospital parking free now, well it certainly is at St Johns in Livvy but when I took the daughter to Little France for keyhole heart surgery it cost me 7 quid for the day. She's ok if anyone is wondering.

[Just joe]

Now theres a thing, I thought the SNP had made all hospital parking free now, well it certainly is at St Johns in Livvy but when I took the daughter to Little France for keyhole heart surgery it cost me 7 quid for the day. She's ok if anyone is wondering.

Bless your wee girl, glad all is ok.

[Shanks said no]

I was going to support Sainsbury`s until I remembered they called it Murrayfield.

[mutley]

I take it everyone using sainsburys car park would be cool with a stranger parking in their driveway?

[daftie]

I've posted here before as I work for a private parking company. Not one bit of me feels bad issuing tickets, when we're trying to stopf people parking parking on other people's private land.

 

I'm not getting into the dos and dont's, but why should owners have to put up with people parking on their property. Let's be honest, we would all go ape, if we couldn't park at our own property. I personally think it's pretty sad, that common decency doesn't come into it anymore. I'm sure the majority of us would be enraged if we couldn't park due to illegal parkers at our own home. Even if a car park is quiet, it is totally irrelevant, you shouldn't park there.

 

Some people think I'm scum, but I wouldn't park on land that I'm not entitled to park on.

[Unknown user]

I've posted here before as I work for a private parking company. Not one bit of me feels bad issuing tickets, when we're trying to stopf people parking parking on other people's private land.

 

I'm not getting into the dos and dont's, but why should owners have to put up with people parking on their property. Let's be honest, we would all go ape, if we couldn't park at our own property. I personally think it's pretty sad, that common decency doesn't come into it anymore. I'm sure the majority of us would be enraged if we couldn't park due to illegal parkers at our own home. Even if a car park is quiet, it is totally irrelevant, you shouldn't park there.

 

Some people think I'm scum, but I wouldn't park on land that I'm not entitled to park on.

This whole "you wouldn't want strangers in your drive" argument is irrelevant, it's not the same at all.

Your job is to ticket people, fair enough, but no one can convince me it's any more morally wrong than nipping into a bar's patrons only toilet for a pee without buying anything.

Sainsbury didn't get hurt, no one got inconvenienced, and this isn't the seethe thread

[Irufushi]

I take it everyone using sainsburys car park would be cool with a stranger parking in their driveway?

What a comparison

 

[gjcc]

What a comparison

 

Aye. I'll just park in one of my hundreds of other driveways.

[kila]

They could take away your nectar points  

 

Though the whole 'toss the ticket in the bin and forget about it' is getting a little more risky after a recent precedent earlier this year:

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14331874.Driver_who_used_McDonalds_as_personal_car_park_faced_with_bill_for_thousands/

[Unknown user]

Aye. I'll just park in one of my hundreds of other driveways.

It's probably the time of night but I actually 'd at that

[gjcc]

They could take away your nectar points

 

Though the whole 'toss the ticket in the bin and forget about it' is getting a little more risky after a recent precedent earlier this year:

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14331874.Driver_who_used_McDonalds_as_personal_car_park_faced_with_bill_for_thousands/

What precedent is that? It was settled outside of court.

[kila]

What precedent is that? It was settled outside of court.

 

Regardless, the parking company 'won'. More parking companies be willing to challenge in court.

 

Though parking companies just want a quick payment and won't take it that far. My flat area has private parking and a friend of mine parked there without a permit once. He got a ticket, and later got a letter demanding payment as they had evidence. Bizarrely, they ended up asking him to confirm his registration plate...

 

However, if everyone dodged the fines, they'd not make any money and would have no choice but to take folk to court.

[queensferryjambo]

I take it everyone using sainsburys car park would be cool with a stranger parking in their driveway?

 

 

Yeah any stranger can park on my drive -

 

As long as the DVLA give their name and PRIVATE home address (IMO any private company being given peoples private details by a government body is absolutely ridiculous).

 

Then I can demand a ludicrously inflated amount of money for parking fees compared to any other car park in Scotland. Then threaten to double the fees they owe me. Then threaten court action. Then offer a reduced fee. Then threaten higher fees. Then threaten court action again and again. 

 

Oh wait no if I did that I would be charged for threatening behaviour and extortion. 

[gjcc]

Regardless, the parking company 'won'. More parking companies be willing to challenge in court.

 

Though parking companies just want a quick payment and won't take it that far. My flat area has private parking and a friend of mine parked there without a permit once. He got a ticket, and later got a letter demanding payment as they had evidence. Bizarrely, they ended up asking him to confirm his registration plate...

 

However, if everyone dodged the fines, they'd not make any money and would have no choice but to take folk to court.

They won because it didn't get to court. No way of knowing what would have happened had they went to court. Besides, the only reason this got taken so far is the amount involved. Firms aren't likely to waste time with someone who parks in a sainsbos once. So just make sure it's Sainsbury's one game, Aldi the next, McDonald's, then Lidl. And repeat.

 

For what it's worth:

I've never parked in a shop or residents only car park. I'm just too polite.

See no issue with others doing so though if they want the potential hassle.

I've had someone double park blocking me in before, i ended up phoning the police to contact the driver(I didn't know who the car belonged to). A right pain in the arse, especially when the guy comes out fuming about the police being contacted. Just told him to be a little more considerate and it wouldn't happen. The alternative was getting my mates round to move it.

[Sneckiejambo]

Thank you for all the input, for and against. One last thing we don't just go and park there,we usually spend ?30 to ?50 in the place.

[Peebo]

Thank you for all the input, for and against. One last thing we don't just go and park there,we usually spend ?30 to ?50 in the place.

How many times have you done this?

[Budgie's Boyfriend]

Bet some of you clowns(mutley etc) would like to see clamping in Scotland . 

[mutley]

Why not just park 5mins away instead of being lazy. Clamping wouldn't bother me tbh

[Seymour M Hersh]

I suppose at the very least the OP will now avoid Sainsbury as a place to park so in their eyes job done (partially anyway).

[Unknown user]

Why not just park 5mins away instead of being lazy. Clamping wouldn't bother me tbh

No one was inconvenienced, had property damaged or got hurt. No one lost money, there was zero cost of any kind to anyone.

 

The one solitary thing that happened was a fellow Hearts fan was convenienced on his way to the game.

 

Why should he justify himself to anyone? If there's a reckoning he'll be responsible for his actions, that's life. It literally affects not one single soul otherwise. Well, except the judgemental type, but they'll find some other major social injustice to seethe about soon enough.

[Paolo]

No one was inconvenienced, had property damaged or got hurt. No one lost money, there was zero cost of any kind to anyone.

 

The one solitary thing that happened was a fellow Hearts fan was convenienced on his way to the game.

 

Why should he justify himself to anyone? If there's a reckoning he'll be responsible for his actions, that's life. It literally affects not one single soul otherwise. Well, except the judgemental type, but they'll find some other major social injustice to seethe about soon enough.

He doesn't need to justify himself, but if he his posting on a public forum, he is going to get replies from people with different viewpoints.

[John Frum]

They could take away your nectar points

 

Though the whole 'toss the ticket in the bin and forget about it' is getting a little more risky after a recent precedent earlier this year:

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/14331874.Driver_who_used_McDonalds_as_personal_car_park_faced_with_bill_for_thousands/

...and there you have some prime examples of the misinformation these racketeers go for.

 

Out of court settlement doesn't mean a win or that there's case law in their favour - it means someone has abused the system and backed down / panicked.

 

These Companies also use acronyms to con the unsuspecting: PCN - is it an unenforceable  Parking Charge Notice (not a fine) or a legitimate Penalty Charge Notice (a fine)? If any of the letters refer to a fine - thats a criminal offence (fraud) if its from a private company. 

 

CPS is it the Crown Prosecution Service or Combined Parking Solutions? CPS is looking at 500 other claims - really? Combined Parking Solutions might be but the Crown Prosecution Service certainly aren't. Misrepresenting themselves and their powers is close to fraud and too often they do cross the line into genuine fraud.

 

As for using ANPR (Auto Number Plate Recognition) without the correct operator licenses it's illegal too - very few of these Companies actually hold the correct licenses - ANPR actually works against them more often than not (don't chance it at the airport though)

 

Leaving aside, the other hurdles - such as no or poor signage, the misrepresentations made by these companies are a big reason why they don't go to court very often - its difficult to get a ruling against someone for a civil law, when your actually breaking criminal law.

 

I'm not condoning people who habitually park inconsiderately (I actually think those ones should get punished before they force a law change which could legitimise the Parking Companies behaviour)  but at the moment these enforcement Companies are quite simply extortionists operating in legal grey area.

[Francis Albert]

Francis Albert, Jeso your a hard man, I followed Hearts since 1958. Sold Capital cash line tickets for years, ?500 in for Gorgie stand, Donations since the start for FOH, Season ticket, years of heartache, park in Sainsbury's for 3 hours now guys want to let our tyres down or scratch the car. The train is near ?60 return, Jesus a could walk down the road and watch Caley, but we are JAMBOS HHGH.

PS Smithee Top man.

Inverness? Practically next door.

 

The car scratching point was more "serves them right" than a proposal. As it is leave your car for over two hours in a busy supermarket car park and there's a fair chance of it happening anyway ..... But you've saved 5 minutes walk.

[Francis Albert]

If the car park for the Hearts museum is heavily used by shoppers and residents around Gorgie Road, to the detriment of visitors and visitor numbers, presumably we'll be OK with that?

[Unknown user]

If your aunts grows a ****** will you still sit on her lap?

 

Ffs

[Unknown user]

He doesn't need to justify himself, but if he his posting on a public forum, he is going to get replies from people with different viewpoints.

Indeed, but he was asked directly to justify himself, that's not a viewpoint.

[Paolo]

If the car park for the Hearts museum is heavily used by shoppers and residents around Gorgie Road, to the detriment of visitors and visitor numbers, presumably we'll be OK with that?

Or if some random parked in your driveway or garden, just because the can and it is unlikely they would get taken to court.

[rossaldinho]

Okay, seeing as I'm not from Edinburgh, where could I park that's near the stadium at 2:45pm?

[Unknown user]

Or if some random parked in your driveway or garden, just because the can and it is unlikely they would get taken to court.

Aye, exactly the same situation that

[Peebo]

No one was inconvenienced, had property damaged or got hurt. No one lost money, there was zero cost of any kind to anyone.

 

The one solitary thing that happened was a fellow Hearts fan was convenienced on his way to the game.

 

Why should he justify himself to anyone? If there's a reckoning he'll be responsible for his actions, that's life. It literally affects not one single soul otherwise. Well, except the judgemental type, but they'll find some other major social injustice to seethe about soon enough.

How are these parking control operations funded? Are sainsburys paying them, or are they independent (maybe even paying sainsburys) and financials based on successful demands from drivers?

[Peebo]

Okay, seeing as I'm not from Edinburgh, where could I park that's near the stadium at 2:45pm?

If you mean places within 15 mins walking distance, Hutchison and Roseburn spring to mind...although many spots will have been taken by that point (by grocery shoppers parking as close to Sainsbury's as possible...).

[Unknown user]

How are these parking control operations funded? Are sainsburys paying them, or are they independent (maybe even paying sainsburys) and financials based on successful demands from drivers?

I've been a taxman, I've been a double glazing salesman, but I've never been a traffic warden - I can't answer that.

 

But he isn't preventing sainsbury from earning, he isn't harming them in any way. No queues of single mothers with starving bairns were turned away because the car park was full, and crucially, the Gorgie community remain safe.

[Francis Albert]

If your aunts grows a ****** will you still sit on her lap?

 

Ffs

If that's a reply to my analogy with the Hearts museum car park ... it seems a fair enough analogy to me.

[ToadKiller Dog]

Have parked there on the odd occasion when we go by car rather than train .

Sainsburys certainly do a roaring trade in their restaurant and snack food sections with passing hearts fans be they on foot or parking cars in the car park .

 

I take it they have had complaints and why they have started to do this .

 

I don't really see any harm in using the car park ,could just enforce the rules in the sections nearest the door leaving spaces enough for shoppers it's not as if shoppers fill up the car park on a Saturday .

[Francis Albert]

No one was inconvenienced, had property damaged or got hurt. No one lost money, there was zero cost of any kind to anyone.

 

The one solitary thing that happened was a fellow Hearts fan was convenienced on his way to the game.

 

Why should he justify himself to anyone? If there's a reckoning he'll be responsible for his actions, that's life. It literally affects not one single soul otherwise. Well, except the judgemental type, but they'll find some other major social injustice to seethe about soon enough.

So you keep saying. I am not sure how you can be sure. The car park always seems pretty busy when I walk through it to get to the tram. It is possible that, since shoppers will try to avoid the Tynecasle rush hour that it gets even busier during the game. I don't know and neither can you unless you monitor usage during the game. As for inconvenience there is always a pretty long queue to get out the car park after the game. So shoppers using the car park for its intended purpose may well be inconvenienced by waiting an extra 5 minutes to exit the car park. True, only a few minutes - the same time Hearts fans using it save by not walking a little further from a legit parking place.

[Unknown user]

So you keep saying. I am not sure how you can be sure. The car park always seems pretty busy when I walk through it to get to the tram. It is possible that, since shoppers will try to avoid the Tynecasle rush hour that it gets even busier during the game. I don't know and neither can you unless you monitor usage during the game. As for inconvenience there is always a pretty long queue to get out the car park after the game. So shoppers using the car park for its intended purpose may well be inconvenienced by waiting an extra 5 minutes to exit the car park. True, only a few minutes - the same time Hearts fans using it save by not walking a little further from a legit parking place.

[Tommy Brown]

I like to park at Saughton Park, a wee bit remote and isolated (always have in the back of my mind about being broken into). A nice walk through the walled garden and a quick pint in Luckies before the game.

5-10 minute walk, free and no inconvience to locals.

[Cade]

Only council and government parking tickets are legally enforceable.

 

If anybody else demand payment, ignore them. They *can* take you to court but all they can claim is what it cost them to put the ticket on your car or for the cost of sending any subsequent letters to your house. Normally this work out at around a tenner and nobody is going to incur court costs to recoup a tenner.

 

Ignore their threatening letters and they'll eventually give up.

 

If not, you can actually sue them for harassment.

[Nookie Bear]

Okay, seeing as I'm not from Edinburgh, where could I park that's near the stadium at 2:45pm?

Up at Harrison Park around the Ettrick.

 

Or leave earlier.

[rossaldinho]

Up at Harrison Park around the Ettrick.

 

Or leave earlier.

Never thought about leaving earlier!

 

 

 

 

Other commitments in the morning/early afternoon mean I can't leave earlier. I'd also miss the start of the game if I parked there.

 

 

 

 

I'll just stick with the half-empty car park.

[Rocco_Jambo]

Only council and government parking tickets are legally enforceable.

 

If anybody else demand payment, ignore them. They *can* take you to court but all they can claim is what it cost them to put the ticket on your car or for the cost of sending any subsequent letters to your house. Normally this work out at around a tenner and nobody is going to incur court costs to recoup a tenner.

 

Ignore their threatening letters and they'll eventually give up.

 

If not, you can actually sue them for harassment.

It is a contract like any other so is legally enforceable. Whether or not they have anough evidence to enforce it is a different story and in most cases they don't because the problem is they can't prove who was driving the car and that they entered in to a contract with this person.

 

An unenforceable contract is one that is deemed valid but a court will not enforce. If a court finds that you entered in to a valid contract with the parking company it will enforce it.

[Jambothump]

Why use Sainsburys? there's plenty of empty private drive ways on Stevensons drive, just park your car there  ? Owners of these private properties won't be able to do anything will they?

 

Oh, if when you get back to your homes  surrounds ? in Dunfemline/Livingstone etc, to find some group of people having a barbecue in your very nice garden, remember how you STOLE a companies private property space.

 

I have no affiliation to any companies car parks, but a deep dislike for ignorant and inconsiderate drivers, half the clowns who bring their cars in town on a Sunday, never having learned how to park before.

 

Park and Ride we have is excellent, USE it

[Francis Albert]

a telling contribution.to the thread.

[John Frum]

It is a contract like any other so is legally enforceable. Whether or not they have anough evidence to enforce it is a different story and in most cases they don't because the problem is they can't prove who was driving the car and that they entered in to a contract with this person.

 

An unenforceable contract is one that is deemed valid but a court will not enforce. If a court finds that you entered in to a valid contract with the parking company it will enforce it.

 

The first hurdle is for them to identify the driver as you say. Unfortunately for them the next set of hurdles are much higher: the parking companies frequently commit fraud (deliberately deceive) and more often than not ignore the simplest contractual requirements such as having adequate signage. Charges are almost always significantly out of proportion to the actual losses incurred and in Scotland there is no effective appeals procedure. These make most of the contracts invalid / unenforceable.

 

Occasionally they do go after serial abusers (quite rightly in my opinion) where they pull out the stops to get additional evidence.

 

There are also a handful of very rare cases - 1 or 2 a year before the law changed in England - that the private parking companies actually won. The defendants in these cases often had such poorly constructed defences that many suspect something wasn't quite right - not conspiracy theories - fully documented on various parking forums.

[Francis Albert]

TL;DR

Never thought about leaving earlier!

Other commitments in the morning/early afternoon mean I can't leave earlier. I'd also miss the start of the game if I parked there.

I'll just stick with the half-empty car park.

always slightly emvious of people whose lives are so full that they can't spare 5 minutes before the game or have to leave 5 minutes before the end.

[rossaldinho]

always slightly emvious of people whose lives are so full that they can't spare 5 minutes before the game or have to leave 5 minutes before the end.

The joy of having a busy life.

[HMFC 1874]

There's a private car park where I live and each space is clearly marked with the flat number. I technically pay for the parking space I get. But because it's privately owned then random folk just park in it all the time because they know they'll get away with it without any consequences. It is desperately scummy and selfish behaviour. Anyone that parks in my space I've began to park directly behind them, essentially blocking them in. They know my flat number so if they want out then they can come up and ask nicely, cretins. Just stop being an arsehole and park somewhere else FFS. Complete laziness.

Desperately scummy?

 

How sad and pathetic are you ffs

[Francis Albert]

Desperately scummy?

How sad and pathetic are you ffs

no just a recognition that someone other than yourself has some rights and consideration. Tough for the post thatcherite generation to understand.

[Unknown user]

a telling contribution.to the thread.

Hey I've contributed plenty to the thread, I even provided a link to the Scottish Citizens Advice Bureaus advice page for exactly this issue.

 

Meanwhile, you've been judgemental, preachy, called people entitled arseholes and acted like an anal wee bowling club president who's found someone having two biscuits - "hey, he's breaking a rule!"

 

The particular post you quoted though, I was just laughing at you to be fair

[Rocco_Jambo]

The first hurdle is for them to identify the driver as you say. Unfortunately for them the next set of hurdles are much higher: the parking companies frequently commit fraud (deliberately deceive) and more often than not ignore the simplest contractual requirements such as having adequate signage. Charges are almost always significantly out of proportion to the actual losses incurred and in Scotland there is no effective appeals procedure. These make most of the contracts invalid / unenforceable.

 

Occasionally they do go after serial abusers (quite rightly in my opinion) where they pull out the stops to get additional evidence.

 

There are also a handful of very rare cases - 1 or 2 a year before the law changed in England - that the private parking companies actually won. The defendants in these cases often had such poorly constructed defences that many suspect something wasn't quite right - not conspiracy theories - fully documented on various parking forums.

Many contracts in the world aren't valid. An unenforceable contract is one which a court deems as valid but will not enforce for a particular reason e.g a contract to buy controlled drugs.

 

Parroting that parking charge contracts are unenforceable is wrong because they are no different to any other contracts the difference is it a very hard if not impossible to prove the parking company entered in to a valid contract with a particular individual. That doesn't mean that if you confirm you were the driver and that you entered in to a contract with the company and it went to court the court would not enforce it.