Greatest British Manager Ever?

[Bert Le Clos]

Had an argument at work with a mate at work about whether Fergy could be considered as one of the greatest.

 

His argument was he couldn't, beacuse he has only won 2 European Cups in 21 years and Clough and Stein won 2 or 3 in much shorter periods of time. He also argues Fergy has had much more money than previous "greats".

 

I argue that he can be considered one of the greatest, based on the number of domestic trophies he has won, and the fact that the European Cup is now a harder competition to win.

 

Plus he won at Aberdeen on a shoe-string budjet.

 

Thoughts?

[K1874M]

Had an argument at work with a mate at work about whether Fergy could be considered as one of the greatest.

 

His argument was he couldn't, beacuse he has only won 2 European Cups in 21 years and Clough and Stein won 2 or 3 in much shorter periods of time. He also argues Fergy has had much more money than previous "greats".

 

I argue that he can be considered one of the greatest, based on the number of domestic trophies he has won, and the fact that the European Cup is now a harder competition to win.

 

Plus he won at Aberdeen on a shoe-string budjet.

 

Thoughts?

 

i think he is but I'm 27 and their isnt really any other manager that comes close to him in the last 25 yrs.

[Coco]

Had an argument at work with a mate at work about whether Fergy could be considered as one of the greatest.

 

His argument was he couldn't, beacuse he has only won 2 European Cups in 21 years and Clough and Stein won 2 or 3 in much shorter periods of time. He also argues Fergy has had much more money than previous "greats".

 

I argue that he can be considered one of the greatest, based on the number of domestic trophies he has won, and the fact that the European Cup is now a harder competition to win.

 

Plus he won at Aberdeen on a shoe-string budjet.

 

Thoughts?

 

Fergie has 2 European Cups and 2 Cup Winners Cups. The Cup Winners Cup in those days was not a third rate competition.

 

Add all those league titles with United, Aberdeen and St Mirren (?). Loads of Cups.

 

I think that outweighs any other single modern day manager. Stein, Shankly, Paisley, Busby and particularly Clough's great achievements are not downgraded by that.

[christhejambo]

I would say he has to be considered as one of the best. Sure, he's had more money to spend, but both Clough and Stein worked in a different era re Television revenue, clubs' commercial strengths etc. The number of domestics titles he has won alone should put him up there- being able to sustain the level of dominance that he has for so long is no mean feat in a league where teams are buying the best players in the game, with increasingly impressive facilities, coaches etc. Some of the talent he has nurtured during his tenure have gone on to be some of the best players in the world- Giggs, Beckham, Scholes to name but a few- surely testiment to his man man management skills.

 

The only 'blip' on his recored is the fact that Utd have only won two European Cups under him- but again given the level of investment in football accross Europe, it is a more competitive trophy now than in previous years, and i dont think his current team are finished on that front by any means

[Bert Le Clos]

Having a debate with olleagues at work about whether or not Fergy is one of the greatest British managers ever.

 

Some say no - Paisley and Clough won as many or more European Cups in much less time. Plus Fergy has spent millions on his squads over the years, and has made several dodgy signings.

 

I say yes - IMO the European Cup is much harder to win in it's current format and not many managers do the league and European Cup double. His domestic record is untouchable and all clubs have more money nowadays. Plus he won at Aberdeen on a shoe-string budjet.

 

Thoughts?

[John Findlay]

SAF can indeed be considered one of the greatest managers ever. Many would argue the greatest.

 

His European trophy haul is 2 x Cup Winners Cups(Once with Aberdeen)

2 x European/Champions League Cups. Both with Aberdeen.

 

He has one league titles in both Scotland and England. Both domestic cup competitions in both Scotland and England. Yes he has had more money to spend than anyone else but lots of money does not guarantee you success.

 

Lots of managers through the ages will confirm that.

 

Jock Stein only won one European trophy and that was the European Cup in 1967. Celtic made the final three years later but were beaten 2-1 by Feyenoord after extra time.

 

Shankly never won the European cup but did the Uefa Cup. He won the league championship and the FA Cup(twice) the first being in 1965 which was Liverpool's first ever win in that trophy.

 

Bob Paisley won the championship 6 times and the European Cup 3 times and the league cup 4 times whilst Liverpool manager. He never won the FA Cup.

 

Brian Clough won the English championship with two clubs that can neither be described as big or fashionable in the English game. Derby County and Nottingham Forest. He also won the European Cup two years running. 1979 and 1980 with Nottingham Forest.

 

In terms of trophys hauled then on that stat alone Ferguson is the most successful. Is he the best. That is a debate that will run and run.

 

Herbert Chapman won the English league 3 times with Arsenal and then 3 times with Huddersfield Town(hardly one of the most glamour clubs in England). He didnt win any European trophies as European competition was still 20 years away.

 

Fergie is certainly one of the best but the best I am not sure.

 

 

 

 

John

[Bert Le Clos]

Oops - orry guys, posted this without a poll! Just re-posted with a polling option. Don't know if the two threads can be merged?

[jamborich]

Tough call, Fergie probably shades it however Bob Paisley's achievements at liverpool in his 12 years as manager was outstanding.

 

6 League titles

3 European cups

1 Uefa cup

1 Super cup

3 League cups

5 Charity sheilds.

The only blot on his copy book was he never won the FA cup.

[vegas-voss]

I know the stats of others but have grew up through Fergie's reign so it's Fergie for me.

[The Vulture]

Very hard one this, two names not mentioned are Bill Nicolson. The double winning Spurs side were meant to be an amazing footballing team of which our own Dave Mackay became a legend.

 

Also what about Bobby Robson ? Did fantastic with Ipswich and then went onto win championships in Holland and Portugal as well as being the manager who brought Ronaldo to Europe.

[Say What Again]

Where's Walter Smith?

[Bert Le Clos]

Where's Walter Smith?

 

He's German

[hmfcalum]

Sponge-John Square Heid isn't an option... surely a mistake...??

[flecktimus]

Got to say Brian Clough because all his success came from so called provincial clubs.

[Hearts Heritage]

Where's 'Sir Alf Ramsey' in the list?

 

'IMO the European Cup is much harder to win in it's current format'

 

Can't agree with you on this one because

 

1 - In England 4 teams now get in. So you don't have to do the hard bit of actually winning the league to get in it. Man U didn't qualify for it from 1969 for about 20 years.

 

2 - The seeding in the league format in the group stages makes it far harder for the big teams to slip up. So normally the 'big clubs' go through to the last 16.

 

3 - So it's normally the case that the 'big clubs' are a 'shoe in' for the knock out stages. The ever increasing strength of the EPL now means that the QF and SF are being dominated by them.

[JyTees]

Fergie hands down.

 

Mainly for his longevity at the top.

 

He's seen off a few pretenders to the crown!

[H2]

With the resources at AF disposal Pailsy and Clough would have been far superior. Clough did what he did with little money initially , built teams and made ordinary players stars.

 

AF has spent more on players than any other manager ever in the UK. in the time period JM was at Chelsea AF spent more.

[kennygarland1]

I voted for Alex Miller,his derby record has to be THE greatest ever:)

[Bert Le Clos]

'IMO the European Cup is much harder to win in it's current format'

 

Can't agree with you on this one because

 

1 - In England 4 teams now get in. So you don't have to do the hard bit of actually winning the league to get in it. Man U didn't qualify for it from 1969 for about 20 years.

 

2 - The seeding in the league format in the group stages makes it far harder for the big teams to slip up. So normally the 'big clubs' go through to the last 16.

 

3 - So it's normally the case that the 'big clubs' are a 'shoe in' for the knock out stages. The ever increasing strength of the EPL now means that the QF and SF are being dominated by them.

 

I disagree, the fact that there was only one champion from each league meant that the European Cup had one team from each strong league (Spain, England, Italy) and the rest of the teams made up from poorer leagues. So, in reality, you were up against possibly only 2 decent sides.

 

Nowadays you can end up playing the top three in Spain in the same competition.

 

I'm not saying it's a better competition now, only that it is more difficult to win. The 3rd and 4th placed sides in England, Spain and Italy are stronger than the winners of the majority of Europe's leagues.

[hearts_crazy]

Where's the Stevie Frail option? Anyone who rates Calum Elliot has to be 'special'

[269miles]

I voted for Stein because I grew up as a youngster when Sellick were at their peak and wer a huge force in Europe.

 

Otherwise , I'd plump for Paisley (not the town) : to win the Euorpean Cup in Rome against Roma in their own stadium is , in my mind , the greatest triumph by and British club.

 

Without choking on sour grapes : SAFs two European Ciup wins have hardly been glorious. In fact the first was so lucky I'm amazed MU fans don't get red faces when they think about it.

[Denny Crane]

Tough call, Fergie probably shades it however Bob Paisley's achievements at liverpool in his 12 years as manager was outstanding.

 

6 League titles

3 European cups

1 Uefa cup

1 Super cup

3 League cups

5 Charity sheilds.

The only blot on his copy book was he never won the FA cup.

 

It was actually nine years having taken over from Shankly in the summer of 74 and retiring after the 83 league title win.

As for the FA Cup, amazing that he was denied that trophy by one Jimmy Greenhoff fluke in the 77 final (check out the footage - candidate for one of the jammiest goals ever). Mind he did well to rally the troops to win the European Cup four days later.

[Boris]

Herbert Chapman anyone?

[Denny Crane]

I voted for Stein because I grew up as a youngster when Sellick were at their peak and wer a huge force in Europe.

 

Otherwise , I'd plump for Paisley (not the town) : to win the Euorpean Cup in Rome against Roma in their own stadium is , in my mind , the greatest triumph by and British club.

 

Paisley did win the European Cup in Rome but Borussia Munchengladbach were the opponents that night. The Roma in Rome triumph you refer to was done by Paisley's successor Joe Fagan in 1984. But you are right, it was a bloody good win.

[No Nonsense]

I voted for Stein because I grew up as a youngster when Sellick were at their peak and wer a huge force in Europe.

 

Otherwise , I'd plump for Paisley (not the town) : to win the Euorpean Cup in Rome against Roma in their own stadium is , in my mind , the greatest triumph by and British club.

 

Without choking on sour grapes : SAFs two European Ciup wins have hardly been glorious. In fact the first was so lucky I'm amazed MU fans don't get red faces when they think about it.

 

You can point to that final against Bayern being slightly lucky, however they were the best team in Europe that season. Any team that wins the Euro cup in its current format can point to a chunk of luck at some point in the competition. Just because its in the final doesn't devalue the win.

 

 

Sir Alex for me!

[primrose]

Did it with 2 teams and both of them have had their most succesful times ever when he was in charge. What he did at Aberdeen made him very special, what he has done since then at Man U has taken him way beyond any other British manager, ever.

 

And to think we would have had him if he hadnt won that first FA cup.

[Pants Shaton]

George Burley.

[JyTees]

With the resources at AF disposal Pailsy and Clough would have been far superior. Clough did what he did with little money initially , built teams and made ordinary players stars.

 

AF has spent more on players than any other manager ever in the UK. in the time period JM was at Chelsea AF spent more.

 

And you know this how?

 

Fergie's achievements with The Sheep are equally impressive when it comes to limited resources, not to mention his stint at St midden.

[shaun.lawson]

Totally subjectively, I'd say:

 

1. Stein

2. Ferguson

3. Shankly

4. Busby

5. Paisley

6. Clough

7. Ramsey

8. Chapman

9. Nicholson

10. McLean (maybe)

[John Findlay]

Totally subjectively, I'd say:

 

1. Stein

2. Ferguson

3. Shankly

4. Busby

5. Paisley

6. Clough

7. Ramsey

8. Chapman

9. Nicholson

10. McLean (maybe)

 

Personally I would be one T. Walker before J. MacLean.

 

 

 

 

 

John

[artfuldodger]

Fergie hands down.

 

Mainly for his longevity at the top.

 

He's seen off a few pretenders to the crown!

 

i will explain to you again tomorow (over a bevvy if your out)why it is paisley

on average fergie wins a league with man yyoo vr 2.2 years too paisleys 1.5years.

fergie also wins a eropean cup on average every 11 years at man yoooo.compared to paisleys every 3 years

fa cups is hands down to fergie 1 every 4.4 years compared to bobs record of none in nine(he was to busy preparing for the european cup finals to be bothered with it really).

league cups are pretty naff down there but fergie wins 1 every 11 years and bob 1 every 3 years

fergie has also won the league in sotland 4 times 4 scottish cups and the leaue cup

bob also won 1 uefa cup

in the end they are both very good managers but over different periods of time bob paisley only managed for nine years in total and is the only coach to have won the european cup 3 times . but for me bob wins it hands up and down

[Guest jackdaddy2008]

Its easily Ferguson.

 

You can argue that money is the difference, but I don't agree.

There is more money in fitba generally, its not like Ferguson is up against opposition with the budgets of Shankly, Stein, Clough and Busby.

 

The domestic leagues have never been more competitive or technical as they are now.

 

Europe is a much larger and complex competition and has been the most important club competition in the world for over a decade, where in the by gone age of the older boys, it wasn't as big, competitive or concentrated. It was a knock out when the other guys won it. It is far easier to get eliminated from European competition than it was back then, teams and leagues are simply so much better.

 

If arguments is based on trophies won in Europe in the quickest time, then surely Benitez will become a better manager than Ferguson if Liverpool win the Champs league next year?

 

Also, if you compare sheer results in terms of footballing minutes, I think Ferguson has all of them beat hands down except for maybe Busby and Shankly for periods.

 

Ferguson for me, by miles, what he did at Aberdeen was incredible.

[jamborich]

It was actually nine years having taken over from Shankly in the summer of 74 and retiring after the 83 league title win.

As for the FA Cup, amazing that he was denied that trophy by one Jimmy Greenhoff fluke in the 77 final (check out the footage - candidate for one of the jammiest goals ever). Mind he did well to rally the troops to win the European Cup four days later.

 

You are correct, 19 trophies + 6 manager of the year awards is a fantastic achievement

[bigandy]

10. McLean (maybe)

 

I think its astonishing that Jim McLean hardly ever gets mentioned in the greates british managers discussions. Everyone praises Clough (and rightly so) for his achievements with provincial clubs but you dont get any more provincial than Dundee Utd. He won the league a couple of cup competitions and got Dundee Utd into a UEFA Cup final and the European Cup semis. Like him or not thats a great achievement.

[sked21]

I would say Fergire. But he is the only one I have seen manage. The others are slightly (Read quite a bit) before my time.

 

His record speaks for itself. He has had a few dodgy seasons but each time he has came back and built another team.

[shaun.lawson]

10. McLean (maybe)

 

I think its astonishing that Jim McLean hardly ever gets mentioned in the greates british managers discussions. Everyone praises Clough (and rightly so) for his achievements with provincial clubs but you dont get any more provincial than Dundee Utd. He won the league a couple of cup competitions and got Dundee Utd into a UEFA Cup final and the European Cup semis. Like him or not thats a great achievement.

 

I agree. The fact that I almost forgot about him too backs up what you're saying. McLean was the Scottish Brian Clough: the parallels are weird actually. Not just the miracles they worked with provincial clubs who should, by rights, have been nowhere near winning the title or succeeding in Europe - but also in the point that both appeared cursed in their respective FA Cups, McLean especially. That United finally broke through and won it in their very first season without him as manager was almost spooky really.

 

Plus, both clubs collapsed as soon as the great men left the scene (at the end of the same season too: 1992/3). About my first ever Scottish football memory involves United's UEFA Cup run in 1987: the very idea that they could've knocked out Terry Venables' Barcelona (a shoot-out away from being reigning European Champions) and reached the final seems ridiculous now - but it happened. And the 1984 European Cup Final was very nearly Liverpool v Dundee United! Astonishing.

 

You're quite right: the old curmudgeon doesn't get anywhere near the recognition he deserves, and you have to think that if Aberdeen hadn't also been working wonders at the same time, JM would have a far higher place in the British managerial pantheon.

[269miles]

You can point to that final against Bayern being slightly lucky, however they were the best team in Europe that season. Any team that wins the Euro cup in its current format can point to a chunk of luck at some point in the competition. Just because its in the final doesn't devalue the win.

 

 

Sir Alex for me!

 

 

Slightly ? How many times did Bayern hit the woodwork ? Three ?

Man U were hardly ever in the game.

 

But , as other posters have said , it's all subjective.

You're right to say that it doesn't devalue the win. However , I don't think even SAF would argue (convincingly) that the performance (then or for the next 8 seasons) marked them out as anything special where it really matters : in Europe. No matter what Fergie says or does the Scousers just love giving Man U the five fingered salute.

[rudi must stay]

Slightly ? How many times did Bayern hit the woodwork ? Three ?

Man U were hardly ever in the game.

 

But , as other posters have said , it's all subjective.

You're right to say that it doesn't devalue the win. However , I don't think even SAF would argue (convincingly) that the performance (then or for the next 8 seasons) marked them out as anything special where it really matters : in Europe. No matter what Fergie says or does the Scousers just love giving Man U the five fingered salute.

 

they haven't done well in europe because they've done so well in the Premiership, they've won it 10 out of 17 times. Which is some achievement. I'm sure SAF would have liked to have done better in europe but it's not as if he hasn't won anything else. Oh and btw, incase you didn't guess i voted Alex Fergson

[RockyBalboa]

special mention Allan McGraw! Legend!

[Denny Crane]

Slightly ? How many times did Bayern hit the woodwork ? Three ?

Man U were hardly ever in the game.

 

But , as other posters have said , it's all subjective.

You're right to say that it doesn't devalue the win. However , I don't think even SAF would argue (convincingly) that the performance (then or for the next 8 seasons) marked them out as anything special where it really matters : in Europe. No matter what Fergie says or does the Scousers just love giving Man U the five fingered salute.

 

 

It is funny seeing the look on the Glams' faces when they see that.

Would like Rafa to make it six though as that lot are starting to catch up.

[paulah]

Fergie for me,he done it with Aberdeen and Man U and has built team after team

[bean counter]

I can't decide between Paisley and Clough so have not voted

[Hearts of Vladland]

I say'd Busby

[Robbo27_22]

Bob Paisley - Shanks put the foundation in place, Paisley built the empire.

[Denny Crane]

Am interested to know how many of the Fergie voters were alive/old enough to remember when Paisley/Clough/Stein were managers? Just that in polls like these for best album or best film etc, the "recent is greatest" phenomenon tends to rule. Such as Radiohead's OK Computer winning greatest other album when Q magazine held a best album poll in 1998 for example. Maybe with some of the younger JKBers voting, from the list provided, Fergie is all they've known?

[Denny Crane]

Bob Paisley - Shanks put the foundation in place, Paisley built the empire.

 

Fagan put the icing on, Kenny added the cherry and Souness flushed it down the toilet!

 

Now if those Yanks will allow Rafa to just get on with rebuilding the darn thing....

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

I have to say I voted for Jock Stein and am proud of it.

 

Cloughie would have been second choice.

 

I am sick of all the sectarian crap in Scotland. I live for parts of my life outside of Scotland and coming back to all this p*sh was truly depressing. I aint ashamed to state that the 'tic's achievement in '67 was the greatest success in BRITISH football history. My Mum and Dad were in Canada and watched the final on TV there and my Dad went nuts with joy when they won. He is the biggest Jambo I have ever known.

 

Stein took 11 weegies to two Euro Cup Finals. They should have won both.

 

Cloughie took a p*ssy wee east midlands team and won 2 finals.

 

Ferguson is a true great but lets get the context right. Clougie and Stein should not have won anything with their clubs. They did.

 

Also, money in the game means that only 3 teams can win in England. In Cloughies time any team could win it. Also the old European Cup, meant only the league winners qualified. If you lost one tie, you were out.

 

Jock Stein - The Greatest.

[Dave Ross]

Went for Shankly just because I love the childlike enthusiasm he had for the game.

[aDONis]

Fergie is the greatest. He has created a dynasty at Man Utd that is hard to believe.

 

When he went to Utd they hadn't won the league in 20 odd seasons (26 I think) since he's been there he's won 10

 

We seem to romanticise about the English league being more competative in Paisleys time, it wasn't. In fergies era at Man U we've seen Everton, Leeds, Blackburn Rovers, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man Utd win the title.

 

During Liverpools pre-eminance we saw Liverpool, Derby, Villa, Forest, Everton and Arsenal.

 

What's happened is that Fergie has maximised Utds potential (money counts, but it's not the bee all and end all of football), he has built the dynasty from the bottom up.

 

Today, we may think at the start of the season of the big 3, but it was no different in Liverpools day. Indeed it was often just a surprise that Liverpool didn't run away with it.

 

What makes him greater than all the rest, is what he did with Aberdeen. No team outside of the OF had won the league for 16 years, he won 3. No team outside of Rangers had won the Scottish cup three times in succession - Fergies Aberdeen did

 

No team outside of the OF had won a european trophy - Aberdeen did and although you may snigger, we've got two.

 

I dread to think how many mangers have wilted whilst he's marched on, building and re-building teams, great teams at that.

 

Sir Alex Ferguson, the greatest of them all.

 

Yours **

aDONis

[scott herbertson]

I agree. The fact that I almost forgot about him too backs up what you're saying. McLean was the Scottish Brian Clough: the parallels are weird actually. Not just the miracles they worked with provincial clubs who should, by rights, have been nowhere near winning the title or succeeding in Europe - but also in the point that both appeared cursed in their respective FA Cups, McLean especially. That United finally broke through and won it in their very first season without him as manager was almost spooky really.

 

Plus, both clubs collapsed as soon as the great men left the scene (at the end of the same season too: 1992/3). About my first ever Scottish football memory involves United's UEFA Cup run in 1987: the very idea that they could've knocked out Terry Venables' Barcelona (a shoot-out away from being reigning European Champions) and reached the final seems ridiculous now - but it happened. And the 1984 European Cup Final was very nearly Liverpool v Dundee United! Astonishing.

 

You're quite right: the old curmudgeon doesn't get anywhere near the recognition he deserves, and you have to think that if Aberdeen hadn't also been working wonders at the same time, JM would have a far higher place in the British managerial pantheon.

 

They also played a similar style of football (counter-attacking with fast passing from cultured half backs to good wingers with more old fashioned centre forwards.

 

I remember seeing United draw 2-2 at old trafford (my brother lived in Manchester at the time) - sturrock, Milne and Narey/ hegarty were superb.