The Death of Debate on JKB

[jambos are go!]

I have recently returned to JKB actively after staying off it for a while because I felt that the situation at Hearts right now is serious and that my belief that non renewal of season tickets is the only weapon many Hearts supporters who feel the same way I do, have.

 

My feelings on Vladimir Romanov are well known. I make no bones of the fact that I believe he is poison for our Club and that he does not have the best interests of HMFC at heart and that I would really want to see the back of him unless he changes his style of running our club. I also accept that nothing is cut and dried and we are in a very difficult situation and that many fans really don't know what to do for the best.

 

I have started a few threads on subjects such as my belief that we may end up relegated, that we may end up as AFC Hearts and on non-season ticket renewal. These to me seem serious points. I also think they are a good basis for reasoned debate all round.

 

Instead what seems to happen is that I get a torrent of abuse, mainly from the type of poster that NEVER start serious threads themselves with a starting point that is cogent and reasoned. I also get accused of being an "attention seeker" How on earth can someone who posts under an assumed name on a internet forum be labelled that is beyond me.

 

What I really want to say is, my stance on the present situation is well known. But it seems to arouse violent responses from many posters.Well I am asking this of these guys. Many of you still believe in Vladimir Romanov. So why don't you start threads that have a reasonable list of points describing how he is the right man to lead us forward or whatever.

 

Naturally, you will no doubt receive abuse/hate thrown at you like I have.

 

I also have to say that I usually strike back at times even though I know that that can weaken my case. I only hope that in doing this I can show that I am just an ordinary fan with no agenda, and not a "professional" like some on JKB who are accused of being such because they never seem to lose their cool regardless of the stick they get which some find suspicious.

 

So, be controversial. Step into the arena. Stop trolling and make an attempt to sit back and explain your positions. Then hopefully debate on vital subjects will return without abuse flying around, warnings and suspensions.

 

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones. You threatened me on here last night in a deleted post after I criticised a deleted sickening post you made.

[Chad Sexington]

People who live in glass houses should not throw stones. You threatened me on here last night in a deleted post after I criticised a deleted sickening post you made.

 

Oh I say!!

 

Don't tell me Freewheelin' Ghandi has a violent side.

 

[flecktimus]

I have recently returned to JKB actively after staying off it for a while because I felt that the situation at Hearts right now is serious and that my belief that non renewal of season tickets is the only weapon many Hearts supporters who feel the same way I do, have.

 

My feelings on Vladimir Romanov are well known. I make no bones of the fact that I believe he is poison for our Club and that he does not have the best interests of HMFC at heart and that I would really want to see the back of him unless he changes his style of running our club. I also accept that nothing is cut and dried and we are in a very difficult situation and that many fans really don't know what to do for the best.

 

I have started a few threads on subjects such as my belief that we may end up relegated, that we may end up as AFC Hearts and on non-season ticket renewal. These to me seem serious points. I also think they are a good basis for reasoned debate all round.

 

Instead what seems to happen is that I get a torrent of abuse, mainly from the type of poster that NEVER start serious threads themselves with a starting point that is cogent and reasoned. I also get accused of being an "attention seeker" How on earth can someone who posts under an assumed name on a internet forum be labelled that is beyond me.

 

What I really want to say is, my stance on the present situation is well known. But it seems to arouse violent responses from many posters.

 

Well I am asking this of these guys. Many of you still believe in Vladimir Romanov. So why don't you start threads that have a reasonable list of points describing how he is the right man to lead us forward or whatever.

 

Naturally, you will no doubt receive abuse/hate thrown at you like I have.

 

I also have to say that I usually strike back at times even though I know that that can weaken my case. I only hope that in doing this I can show that I am just an ordinary fan with no agenda, and not a "professional" like some on JKB who are accused of being such because they never seem to lose their cool regardless of the stick they get which some find suspicious.

 

So, be controversial. Step into the arena. Stop trolling and make an attempt to sit back and explain your positions. Then hopefully debate on vital subjects will return without abuse flying around, warnings and suspensions.

 

Ok, I have not debated the renew or not to renew, because i am not a season ticket holder.So i have a couple of questions.

 

1) Are you a season ticket holder?

 

2) What action are you proposing to get our club back if the brown stuff hits the fan?

[camsanozziejambo2]

Does it make sense?

 

Decent e- mail

1 day we will ALL get the answers

Anyway a lot of good points

HOO ROO

[camsanozziejambo2]

[G,Day

Another good reply

BUT WHAT IS THE ANSWER

SOMEBODY TELLME

HOO ROO

[Makween]

Ah, for the halcyon days of Kickback being a haven for sensible, reasoned debate.

 

Er, when was that again? I've been using Kickback on and off for nearly four years now, and it's no better or worse than it's ever been.

[MacDonald Jardine]

Ah, for the halcyon days of Kickback being a haven for sensible, reasoned debate.

 

Er, when was that again? I've been using Kickback on and off for nearly four years now, and it's no better or worse than it's ever been.

 

Probably not but I'm getting increasingly hacked off with the overwhelming negativity and continual posing on the same topic by certain posters. The OP is a classic example.

 

Yes, it's been a crap season.

No, Vlad shouldn't interfere in team selections.

 

But ultimately I want to watch Hearts play games.

Apparently that makes me part of the problem.

[Guest GhostHunter]

Yes, it's been a crap season.

No, Vlad shouldn't interfere in team selections.

 

.

 

Nut in a shell.

[ToadKiller Dog]

The simple fact is FWJ if he likes it or not has put himself up on kickback as the lead voice of the do not renew at any point campaign and as chester says using the most emotive of rhetoric to do so.

I just wish that FWJ and others with the same view came out and admitted the end game of there non renewal that they want Romanov out not just to change his ways,i dont think that is a step that the majority of the support are near ready to fully consider as there is no real alternative certainly not AFC Hearts which FWJ at one point was promoting as a good thing.

There is only so much preaching from both sides of the argument that the average kickbacker can take ,so if you are going to take up the missionary position on what ever side you should expect to get......

[portobellojambo1]

I think it is very much a case of in many circumstances there is no real scope for debate because opinions seem to be so very divided, and many threads are actually brought down to slagging matches, with people debating the merits of each other rather than the merits of the subject matter within the original post,

 

Applies whether that be who would make the best manager, will the new stand be built, renewal of season tickets, whatever. In relation to many subjects it is not possible to debate because people have hard and fast opinions, and are not willing to give anything.

 

In relation to renewal of season tickets I don't even think it is a subject up for debate, because renewal is very much something personal to each individual, and I would like to hope each individual would make up their own minds without feeling under pressure from others.

 

Certainly it was the outlook I had, I have my opinions on the running of the club, who might make a good manager, opinions on players and player performance, all sorts of other things, but that is all it is, opinions, doesn't mean they are necessarily right. In relation to renewing my season ticket I always knew what I was going to do, and had no intention of letting anyone on JKB influence that decision.

[Deek]

I stay away from the Terrace,precisely because you hardly have any reasonable debate.

 

You try and put forward your point of view and as PJ1 has pointed out, the thread normally ends in posters being debated rather than the subject.

 

I post mainly in The Shed, because there you do have well formed opinion and intelligent debate.

[Francis Albert]

JKB is not so different today as it was in the last days and months (maybe year) of CPR. Then any post that was not virulently anti-CPR, or which dared to suggest there might, say, be a case for selling Tynecastle to clear the debt, was interpreted as being "pro-CPR" and probably paid for by CPR. This was so even if the poster made clear his opposition to CPR. Similarly today - anyone who criticises some of the more absurd anti-Vlad stuff is deemed "pro Vlad" (or to be precise a "Vladsheep"). A recent example is the portrayal of the ST message on the official web site. Some see it as another "lie" perpetrated on the long suffering Hearts support by the monstrous regime. Others see it as a perfectly normal (if maybe too transparent) piece of marketing. The latter are not pro-Vlad.

 

The reason no-one starts pro-Vlad threads to set up the desired "debate" is that I doubt that anyone who posts on here supports Vlad's management of the football side of Hearts. Disappointing though that may be to those who enjoy deploying their own overblown rhetoric in "debates".

[JamboGraham]

Rather incredibly (or not!) statistically speaking four out of every five posts on kickback comes from the top twenty posters so it is no surprise that the same points and opinions are raised time and time again...just now we have over 238,400 posts...

 

Even more interesting is that one post in every five comes from one of three posters who between them have made over 46,000 posts between them! What do these guys do for a living? Do they have kickback open 24 hours a day....who knows...however, given that level of posting it is impossible to avoid the same ideas and thoughts coming up time after time...

 

Fair play to the "big three" and the rest of the top twenty. However, in many ways genuine debate is suppressed when the board is dominated by so few posters.

[Makween]

What do these guys do for a living?

 

Perform statistical analysis on the post ratios of online forums?

[Nobreath]

What do these guys do for a living? Do they have kickback open 24 hours a day....

I laughed out loud when I read that, as I've asked myself the same question a few times.

 

I reckon I must be on Kickback at least an hour a day which IMO is pretty excessive. God only knows how many hours the leading posters are on for.

 

As far as the mods are concerned, I think they do a damn fine job and should continue to be anonymous.

 

I've posted a few stupid comments on here in the heat of a debate which I've later regretted, but without any problem from the mods, so would imagine that you would have to be really taking the **** to end up with a suspension/ban.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Perform statistical analysis on the post ratios of online forums?

 

:biggrin:

[JamboGraham]

Perform statistical analysis on the post ratios of online forums?

 

Ha.....touche!

[Ulysses]

Rather incredibly (or not!) statistically speaking four out of every five posts on kickback comes from the top twenty posters so it is no surprise that the same points and opinions are raised time and time again...just now we have over 238,400 posts...

 

Even more interesting is that one post in every five comes from one of three posters who between them have made over 46,000 posts between them! What do these guys do for a living? Do they have kickback open 24 hours a day....who knows...however, given that level of posting it is impossible to avoid the same ideas and thoughts coming up time after time...

 

Fair play to the "big three" and the rest of the top twenty. However, in many ways genuine debate is suppressed when the board is dominated by so few posters.

 

Actually, while the above is statistically interesting, it isn't true.

 

The total post count you can see for the forum is about 238,500. The total post count for the top twenty posters is about 172,000. However, the post counts of individual members include the posts they made before the change to the new server in January. The old server had approximately 1.25 million posts on it. So the top twenty posters have posted about 11% of the posts on JKB. The "big three" have posted about 3%.

[Ulysses]

Actually, while the above is statistically interesting, it isn't true.

 

The total post count you can see for the forum is about 238,500. The total post count for the top twenty posters is about 172,000. However, the post counts of individual members include the posts they made before the change to the new server in January. The old server had approximately 1.25 million posts on it. So the top twenty posters have posted about 11% of the posts on JKB. The "big three" have posted about 3%.

 

And following up on this, 305 different people have posted so far today. 545 different people have posted since Friday morning, and 1,100 people have posted in the last week.

 

There's quite a variety of debate to be had on JKB, even if you have to block out quite a bit of noise sometimes.

[JamboGraham]

Actually, while the above is statistically interesting, it isn't true.

 

The total post count you can see for the forum is about 238,500. The total post count for the top twenty posters is about 172,000. However, the post counts of individual members include the posts they made before the change to the new server in January. The old server had approximately 1.25 million posts on it. So the top twenty posters have posted about 11% of the posts on JKB. The "big three" have posted about 3%.

 

Thanks for the update, useful information indeed. I do suspect though that the overall contribution from the current top twenty and "big three" is far greater since the move to the current server than the 11% and 3% over the lifetime of the combined boards.

 

I agree that there is fine debate (at times) to be had on JKB. Long may it continue...

[jkato]

And following up on this, 305 different people have posted so far today. 545 different people have posted since Friday morning, and 1,100 people have posted in the last week.

 

There's quite a variety of debate to be had on JKB, even if you have to block out quite a bit of noise sometimes.

 

A very good post.

 

Please do not block out posters who "question" the current regime.

 

Please!!

[Nucky Thompson]

Thanks for the update, useful information indeed. I do suspect though that the overall contribution from the current top twenty and "big three" is far greater since the move to the current server than the 11% and 3% over the lifetime of the combined boards.

 

I agree that there is fine debate (at times) to be had on JKB. Long may it continue...

How do you know who the top twenty or the big three posters are?

[Tom Heaney]

How do you know who the top twenty or the big three posters are?

 

Click on members list and sort by posts

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

Just back now from a good day out in the Toon.

 

Did a stadium tour of St James Park. Awesome.

 

Did a pub tour after including the last few minutes of the show at City Vaults.

 

Honestly we just wandered in there to watch the Sunderland game...

 

Glad the wife aint a JKBer...

 

Anyway this thread is bumping along nicely and even my pal Spellczech has a good word for me. However, there is a bit of work to be done with Jambo's are Go! who claims I "threatened" him. Dearie me.

 

Anyway, good to see a thread about an emotive subject getting some good stuff on it.

 

PS Husref, your becoming a bit boring at the moment with the personal stuff.

 

?

[Nucky Thompson]

Just back now from a good day out in the Toon.

 

Did a stadium tour of St James Park. Awesome.

 

Did a pub tour after including the last few minutes of the show at City Vaults.

 

Honestly we just wandered in there to watch the Sunderland game...

 

Glad the wife aint a JKBer...

 

Anyway this thread is bumping along nicely and even my pal Spellczech has a good word for me. However, there is a bit of work to be done with Jambo's are Go! who claims I "threatened" him. Dearie me.

 

Anyway, good to see a thread about an emotive subject getting some good stuff on it.

 

PS Husref, your becoming a bit boring at the moment with the personal stuff.

 

?

Why are you back already you lightweight;)

[Tom Heaney]

Why are you back already you lightweight;)

 

Was just thinking that;) Left around 9am this morning and back by 9pm and thats with approx 4 hours driving time. Seems like he wanted to get back to see how his wee thread was doing

 

[Ulysses]

A very good post.

 

Please do not block out posters who "question" the current regime.

 

Please!!

 

I think most people question the current regime, even those who believe we're stuck with it.

 

I think the real problem is in two parts. The first part is that people rarely change their minds in response to debates; they change their minds in response to events. What this means is that on JKB we will rarely change someone else's opinion because of what we say. The second part is that people get frustrated at that, and the frustration leads to what is called "cyber-transference". In a nutshell, we get annoyed at the fact that the other guy can't see things the way we do, and because he's hidden behind a computer screen we get abusive and rude in a way we couldn't afford to in real life.

 

Most of the hassle and "stifling of debate" we see on JKB is because some people find it hard to deal with disagreement without resorting to anger.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

Why are you back already you lightweight;)

 

Orders.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

Was just thinking that;) Left around 9am this morning and back by 9pm and thats with approx 4 hours driving time. Seems like he wanted to get back to see how his wee thread was doing

 

 

Went down by train. Only 90 minutes each way.

 

Thats all I'm allowed these days...

[Tom Heaney]

Orders.

 

FWJ, You need to sort that out mate:p

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

FWJ, You need to sort that out mate:p

 

She's yours if you want her...

[Nucky Thompson]

I think most people question the current regime, even those who believe we're stuck with it.

 

I think the real problem is in two parts. The first part is that people rarely change their minds in response to debates; they change their minds in response to events. What this means is that on JKB we will rarely change someone else's opinion because of what we say. The second part is that people get frustrated at that, and the frustration leads to what is called "cyber-transference". In a nutshell, we get annoyed at the fact that the other guy can't see things the way we do, and because he's hidden behind a computer screen we get abusive and rude in a way we couldn't afford to in real life.

 

Most of the hassle and "stifling of debate" we see on JKB is because some people find it hard to deal with disagreement without resorting to anger.

Are you a social worker in real life:)

[Tom Heaney]

She's yours if you want her...

 

I'll swap ya, Mines comes with Twin Boys at 2 1/2

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

I'll swap ya, Mines comes with Twin Boys at 2 1/2

 

 

Sounds good.

 

Where will I send the package?

[Tom Heaney]

Sounds good.

 

Where will I send the package?

 

I'm no taking anything "Sight Unseen";)

 

Here is my wife http://files.splinder.com/49dc3f928fa82454c1a42de40a4927f2.jpeg

 

AYE RIGHT

[Eckauskas]

The self-proclaimed debating elite are the problem.

 

They, and the sanctimonious types who revel in telling people that they told us so.

[Ulysses]

Are you a social worker in real life:)

 

Nope. I'm too nasty.

[davemclaren]

I'm no taking anything "Sight Unseen";)

 

Here is my wife http://files.splinder.com/49dc3f928fa82454c1a42de40a4927f2.jpeg

 

AYE RIGHT

 

Jings, you've paid for a heck of a lot of surgery.

[Tom Heaney]

Jings, you've paid for a heck of a lot of surgery.

 

Its actually who I meant to ask to marry me. I got so drunk and got mixed up

[Nookie Bear]

Man starts thread on the death of debate on JKB and ends up trying to swap his wife.

 

Anyway, I can only speak for myself. I rarely log onto JKB these days for the following reasons:

a) the threads are repetitive ("Miko/Elliott/Neilson are gash") although I would imagine its the same on every forum in the world

 

the issues are the same

 

c) the abuse of anyone not keeping the party line is tiresome

 

d) we debate EVERY topic under the sun except the one that , to me, is the most crucial. i.e. Do we need to put together a concerted effort to try and reel Vlad in and to get his paws out of the team? What form would it take if we did? IMO, until we address this in a mature, open fashion then everything else is just mindless fluff that makes a welcome diversion from work.

[Tom Heaney]

Man starts thread on the death of debate on JKB and ends up trying to swap his wife.

 

.

 

Its called multi tasking:rolleyes:

[flecktimus]

Man starts thread on the death of debate on JKB and ends up trying to swap his wife.

 

Anyway, I can only speak for myself. I rarely log onto JKB these days for the following reasons:

a) the threads are repetitive ("Miko/Elliott/Neilson are gash") although I would imagine its the same on every forum in the world

 

the issues are the same

 

c) the abuse of anyone not keeping the party line is tiresome

 

d) we debate EVERY topic under the sun except the one that , to me, is the most crucial. i.e. Do we need to put together a concerted effort to try and reel Vlad in and to get his paws out of the team? What form would it take if we did? IMO, until we address this in a mature, open fashion then everything else is just mindless fluff that makes a welcome diversion from work.

 

Thats the problem with the OP he is trying to persuade people not to renew without suggesting any kind of action on how we will deal with HMFC if the brown stuff hits the fan

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

Man starts thread on the death of debate on JKB and ends up trying to swap his wife.

 

Anyway, I can only speak for myself. I rarely log onto JKB these days for the following reasons:

a) the threads are repetitive ("Miko/Elliott/Neilson are gash") although I would imagine its the same on every forum in the world

 

the issues are the same

 

c) the abuse of anyone not keeping the party line is tiresome

 

d) we debate EVERY topic under the sun except the one that , to me, is the most crucial. i.e. Do we need to put together a concerted effort to try and reel Vlad in and to get his paws out of the team? What form would it take if we did? IMO, until we address this in a mature, open fashion then everything else is just mindless fluff that makes a welcome diversion from work.

 

JKB made me do it.

 

The issue you raise is that the moment anyone starts to mention "taking action" they are screamed down before a debate is given a chance to develop. This is another example of an emotive issue not being allowed to evolve because of certain posters who never start reasonably written OP's themselves (maybe they can't) just take over threads.

 

However, I seem to remember immediately prior to the infamous Jan 1 statement that guys like Jambovambo were seriously considering certain types of protest. The mood had started to move that way, but of course we don't know if anything would have actually happened

[flecktimus]

Sounds good.

 

Where will I send the package?

 

Welcome back FWJ . Need 2 Questions Answered

 

1) Are you a season ticket holder

 

2) Whats your plan of action if HMFC go pear shaped because of fans not renewing

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

Thats the problem with the OP he is trying to persuade people not to renew without suggesting any kind of action on how we will deal with HMFC if the brown stuff hits the fan

 

I am suggesting nothing else because assuming there is a major downturn in tickets sold, we would have to see how Vlad reacts first.

 

Absolutely no one else has put forward any other type of suggestion that would possibly force a change. No protest movement, nothing. I am not the only one to mention ST's, other have too.

 

I dont even know if it would work anyway, but we have to at least try something. What would YOU do?

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

Welcome back FWJ . Need 2 Questions Answered

 

1) Are you a season ticket holder

 

2) Whats your plan of action if HMFC go pear shaped because of fans not renewing

 

1) I am a season ticket holder for 8 years, before that a regular attender when work allowed and became a season ticket holder when work and finances finally allowed it.

 

2) Could Hearts go any more pearshaped with 12500 ST holders, no manager, ?36m debt and possibly relegation?

[jambovambo]

Welcome back FWJ . Need 2 Questions Answered

 

1) Are you a season ticket holder

 

2) Whats your plan of action if HMFC go pear shaped because of fans not renewing

 

It's going pear-shaped, as things stand. We gotta do something.

 

Unless you have a better idea?

[davemclaren]

1) I am a season ticket holder for 8 years, before that a regular attender when work allowed and became a season ticket holder when work and finances finally allowed it.

 

2) Could Hearts go any more pearshaped with 125000 ST holders, no manager, ?36m debt and possibly relegation?

 

Relegation? Even with the team we have now we will not get relegated imo.

[Guest Freewheelin' Jambo]

Relegation? Even with the team we have now we will not get relegated imo.

 

I remember people saying that in 1977.

 

I think it is a distinct possibility in the future.

 

And the team we have now are utter garbage.

[flecktimus]

1) I am a season ticket holder for 8 years, before that a regular attender when work allowed and became a season ticket holder when work and finances finally allowed it.

 

2) Could Hearts go any more pearshaped with 12500 ST holders, no manager, ?36m debt and possibly relegation?

 

What my problem with your stance on not renewing is trying to persuade others and you are not giving any alternative.I may or may not agree you but it must be up to each individual whether to renew or not.