Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues

[been here before]

Thats Public Inquiry published its report into the tram shambles.

 

The gist of it being the council were at fault, TIE were at fault, the Scottish Govt were at fault and the whole thing was managed poorly from start to finish with  "litany of avoidable failures".

 

Its taken 9 years and £13 million to come up with a conclusion your average Joe Bloggs in the street could have provided in 30 seconds.

 

Oh aye and they also come to the conclusion that the actual cost was £835.7 million- about 100 million per mile.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-66854342

Edited September 19, 2023 by been here before

[manaliveits105]

Enquiry costs more than the Iraq War inquiry 

Scottish government response to criticism (unable to blame the Tories) is basically the enquiry has got it wrong and cost too much 

 

[Lovecraft]

3 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Enquiry costs more than the Iraq War inquiry 

Scottish government response to criticism (unable to blame the Tories) is basically the enquiry has got it wrong and cost too much 

 

It's worth remembering that the SNP government had wanted to scrap the Edinburgh Trams project.

Indeed the party's manifesto in 2007 contained a commitment to abandon the project.

However, the SNP didn't have a majority at Holyrood and the opposition parties united to outvote the Scottish government, forcing it to press ahead with the scheme.

[Stuart Lyon]

The revised cost means it will likely never make a profit! An expensive vanity project like fixed cycleways and spaces for people measures retained long after COVID.

[Malinga the Swinga]

6 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

It's worth remembering that the SNP government had wanted to scrap the Edinburgh Trams project.

Indeed the party's manifesto in 2007 contained a commitment to abandon the project.

However, the SNP didn't have a majority at Holyrood and the opposition parties united to outvote the Scottish government, forcing it to press ahead with the scheme.

Yep, that's true. You have missed out part though where because they were outvoted, they scaled back government supervision of tram project, something very rarely done. As a result, more cost to Edinburgh but then again, Scottish government hate Edinburgh and it's citizens.

[Pans Jambo]

20 minutes ago, Lovecraft said:

It's worth remembering that the SNP government had wanted to scrap the Edinburgh Trams project.

Indeed the party's manifesto in 2007 contained a commitment to abandon the project.

However, the SNP didn't have a majority at Holyrood and the opposition parties united to outvote the Scottish government, forcing it to press ahead with the scheme.

Never let the facts get between the truth and an idiot!

[The Real Maroonblood]

30 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Yep, that's true. You have missed out part though where because they were outvoted, they scaled back government supervision of tram project, something very rarely done. As a result, more cost to Edinburgh but then again, Scottish government hate Edinburgh and it's citizens.

[been here before]

100 million per mile works out at about a 1.5k an inch if my fag packet maths stand up to scrutiny.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

As ever with these things, less interested in who is blamed than who actually faces consequences.

 

Assuming the answer will be no-one 

[The Real Maroonblood]

Has the Inquiry started into why the Inquiry took so long?

[manaliveits105]

37 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Yep, that's true. You have missed out part though where because they were outvoted, they scaled back government supervision of tram project, something very rarely done. As a result, more cost to Edinburgh but then again, Scottish government hate Edinburgh and it's citizens.

Never let facts get in between truth and smurf clowns 

[Jim_Duncan]

1 hour ago, been here before said:

Thats Public Inquiry published its report into the tram shambles.

 

The gist of it being the council were at fault, TIE were at fault, the Scottish Govt were at fault and the whole thing was managed poorly from start to finish with  "litany of avoidable failures".

 

Its taken 9 years and £13 million to come up with a conclusion your average Joe Bloggs in the street could have provided in 30 seconds.

 

Oh aye and they also come to the conclusion that the actual cost was £835.7 million- about 100 million per mile.

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-66854342

Why is there such an incredibly high level of ineptitude in this country?

(That’s Scotland and/or the UK before any of the Indy-Union warriors start picking apart the idea of what a country is and isn’t.)

[indianajones]

How heids aren't rolling for this is mental. 

[luckyBatistuta]

35 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

Why is there such an incredibly high level of ineptitude in this country?

(That’s Scotland and/or the UK before any of the Indy-Union warriors start picking apart the idea of what a country is and isn’t.)

Was listening to this channel on the radio at work a couple of nights back. I can’t remember the exact figures, but they were talking about rail links, motorways, etc in the uk. They discussed figures from other countries like Germany and France, plus more. We were pretty much three times the cost, per mile, than all the other countries. Where the hell is all this money going🤷🏼‍♂️

[luckyBatistuta]

5 minutes ago, indianajones said:

How heids aren't rolling for this is mental. 

Exactly mate, Born Slippy…Tramspotting.

 

 

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

8 minutes ago, luckyBatistuta said:

Was listening to this channel on the radio at work a couple of nights back. I can’t remember the exact figures, but they were talking about rail links, motorways, etc in the uk. They discussed figures from other countries like Germany and France, plus more. We were pretty much three times the cost, per mile, than all the other countries. Where the hell is all this money going🤷🏼‍♂️

Possibly because it's easier to get workers from all over the European Union at less cost to companies and production costs are probably more reasonable with free cross border trade.

That's no excuse for the Edinburgh tram line costing more though as we were still in the EU at the time of the first section's construction.

[Horatio Caine]

1 hour ago, been here before said:

100 million per mile works out at about a 1.5k an inch if my fag packet maths stand up to scrutiny.

Probably does, but you really ought to stop smoking.

[Greenbank2]

51 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

Why is there such an incredibly high level of ineptitude in this country?

(That’s Scotland and/or the UK before any of the Indy-Union warriors start picking apart the idea of what a country is and isn’t.)

IMO, since Thatcher in the '80's there has been a relentless push towards privatizing everything. That means lining the pockets of business owners and top management i.e. more cost. What it has also meant is that public bodies have been forced to disinvest in the skills that were previously responsible for creating the governance that was used to manage large scale projects. eg. take HS2, Edinburgh trams/ Hospital building etc or any other big investment project. What did the tender document say? Who wrote it? Who scrutinised the responses? I'll bet it was all done by consultants who were charging millions - and were key stakeholders (for profit) in the outcome. The big (for profit) organisations who replied would have water-tight legal clauses that protected and their profits should anything go awry. So what you get is the following:

 

Tender document: Build a tram system from A to B.

Response: 500 pages of assumptions and legal clauses which conclude with "on that basis, expect a cost of between 1 and 2.

 

Stakeholders tell the world it will cost between 1 and 2 and awards contract.

 

Planning and eventually construction starts during which lots of clauses in contract are triggered, project takes 10 times as long and 100 times the cost. Contractors say "not our fault, this is what was approved"

Why? because our councils/governments do not have the funding to hire people who can run these things properly.

[Harry Potter]

never been on one yet, nearest stop is 2miles away, handy for tourists though,

[luckyBatistuta]

35 minutes ago, Horatio Caine said:

Probably does, but you really ought to stop smoking.

[luckyBatistuta]

1 hour ago, been here before said:

100 million per mile works out at about a 1.5k an inch if my fag packet maths stand up to scrutiny.

Just can’t get my head around how anything could possibly cost that much.

[luckyBatistuta]

42 minutes ago, All roads lead to Gorgie said:

Possibly because it's easier to get workers from all over the European Union at less cost to companies and production costs are probably more reasonable with free cross border trade.

That's no excuse for the Edinburgh tram line costing more though as we were still in the EU at the time of the first section's construction.

3x though, seems a bit much.

[Lord Montpelier]

Always thought the bus network with a little investment was more than adequate

 

And if this was about getting out to the airport a spur on one of the train lines going close by could have done that

[John Findlay]

2 hours ago, Dusk_Till_Dawn said:

As ever with these things, less interested in who is blamed than who actually faces consequences.

 

Assuming the answer will be no-one 

Correct.

[All roads lead to Gorgie]

50 minutes ago, luckyBatistuta said:

3x though, seems a bit much.

It was just incompetence from the planning stage to the foremen on site. Remember when they had to rip up the tracks on Princes Street and relay them because they used the wrong sealant between the rails or something.

[Gundermann]

3 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Never let facts get in between truth and smurf clowns 

 

Tories wanted to bulldoze centre of Edinburgh and put a motorway through it as in Glasgow.

 

Labour/ Tory coonsull now extending the trams.

 

Useless unionist ******s.

[Byyy The Light]

2 hours ago, Greenbank2 said:

IMO, since Thatcher in the '80's there has been a relentless push towards privatizing everything. That means lining the pockets of business owners and top management i.e. more cost. What it has also meant is that public bodies have been forced to disinvest in the skills that were previously responsible for creating the governance that was used to manage large scale projects. eg. take HS2, Edinburgh trams/ Hospital building etc or any other big investment project. What did the tender document say? Who wrote it? Who scrutinised the responses? I'll bet it was all done by consultants who were charging millions - and were key stakeholders (for profit) in the outcome. The big (for profit) organisations who replied would have water-tight legal clauses that protected and their profits should anything go awry. So what you get is the following:

 

Tender document: Build a tram system from A to B.

Response: 500 pages of assumptions and legal clauses which conclude with "on that basis, expect a cost of between 1 and 2.

 

Stakeholders tell the world it will cost between 1 and 2 and awards contract.

 

Planning and eventually construction starts during which lots of clauses in contract are triggered, project takes 10 times as long and 100 times the cost. Contractors say "not our fault, this is what was approved"

Why? because our councils/governments do not have the funding to hire people who can run these things properly.

 

Nail on head.  So many businesses just add zeros to public sector contracts.  Not just construction but marketing agencies etc as well.  

[Spellczech]

I'm sure "lessons will be learned" etc...

[Malinga the Swinga]

31 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

I'm sure "lessons will be learned" etc...

I'm fairly sure they haven't been, and fairly sure they never will be.

Look at the **** up with the ferries. 

Private companies send qualified specialist lawyers to get the contracts signed off with caveats all over place in their benefit, local authorities and Scottish government/UK government send their unqualified lackies.

No surprise we get screwed over.

[ArcticJambo]

2 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

I'm fairly sure they haven't been, and fairly sure they never will be.

Look at the **** up with the ferries. 

Private companies send qualified specialist lawyers to get the contracts signed off with caveats all over place in their benefit, local authorities and Scottish government/UK government send their unqualified lackies.

No surprise we get screwed over.

This is what it's all about! Employ the best lawyers to make your contracts watertight but time and time again the thick ***** won't do it. Senior management in govt stealing a wage!

[Spellczech]

2 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

I'm fairly sure they haven't been, and fairly sure they never will be.

Look at the **** up with the ferries. 

Private companies send qualified specialist lawyers to get the contracts signed off with caveats all over place in their benefit, local authorities and Scottish government/UK government send their unqualified lackies.

No surprise we get screwed over.

Yeah "lessons will be learned" is just the standard public sector reponse to all public inquires...

Edited September 19, 2023 by Spellczech

[i wish jj was my dad]

14 hours ago, Greenbank2 said:

IMO, since Thatcher in the '80's there has been a relentless push towards privatizing everything. That means lining the pockets of business owners and top management i.e. more cost. What it has also meant is that public bodies have been forced to disinvest in the skills that were previously responsible for creating the governance that was used to manage large scale projects. eg. take HS2, Edinburgh trams/ Hospital building etc or any other big investment project. What did the tender document say? Who wrote it? Who scrutinised the responses? I'll bet it was all done by consultants who were charging millions - and were key stakeholders (for profit) in the outcome. The big (for profit) organisations who replied would have water-tight legal clauses that protected and their profits should anything go awry. So what you get is the following:

 

Tender document: Build a tram system from A to B.

Response: 500 pages of assumptions and legal clauses which conclude with "on that basis, expect a cost of between 1 and 2.

 

Stakeholders tell the world it will cost between 1 and 2 and awards contract.

 

Planning and eventually construction starts during which lots of clauses in contract are triggered, project takes 10 times as long and 100 times the cost. Contractors say "not our fault, this is what was approved"

Why? because our councils/governments do not have the funding to hire people who can run these things properly.

That is the real national scandal and until we are prepared to properly invest in public services and infrastructure we will always end up spending more than our peers in the long run. It's a false economy with disastrous consequences. 

[The Mighty Thor]

14 hours ago, Greenbank2 said:

IMO, since Thatcher in the '80's there has been a relentless push towards privatizing everything. That means lining the pockets of business owners and top management i.e. more cost. What it has also meant is that public bodies have been forced to disinvest in the skills that were previously responsible for creating the governance that was used to manage large scale projects. eg. take HS2, Edinburgh trams/ Hospital building etc or any other big investment project. What did the tender document say? Who wrote it? Who scrutinised the responses? I'll bet it was all done by consultants who were charging millions - and were key stakeholders (for profit) in the outcome. The big (for profit) organisations who replied would have water-tight legal clauses that protected and their profits should anything go awry. So what you get is the following:

 

Tender document: Build a tram system from A to B.

Response: 500 pages of assumptions and legal clauses which conclude with "on that basis, expect a cost of between 1 and 2.

 

Stakeholders tell the world it will cost between 1 and 2 and awards contract.

 

Planning and eventually construction starts during which lots of clauses in contract are triggered, project takes 10 times as long and 100 times the cost. Contractors say "not our fault, this is what was approved"

Why? because our councils/governments do not have the funding to hire people who can run these things properly.

Indeed. 

 

When you put councillors and council employees up against professional business negotiatiors and lawyers the outcome will always be that someone is getting their pants pulled down. 

[Stuart Lyon]

Surprise, surprise SNP Transport Minister says Lord Hardie got it wrong!

[stuart500]

I prefer the SNP transport strategy of providing everyone with a free luxury motorhome.

[Dagger Is Back]

18 hours ago, Jim_Duncan said:

Why is there such an incredibly high level of ineptitude in this country?

(That’s Scotland and/or the UK before any of the Indy-Union warriors start picking apart the idea of what a country is and isn’t.)

Inept or corrupt? Or both?

[JudyJudyJudy]

The guy who was initially in charge of it was from a social work background . Absolutely zero clue about business . 
 

the cost is shocking but I actually really think it’s been a good thing for Edinburgh , in particular for the environment 

[pablo]

Love the trams. The difference the Newhaven line has made to Leith is remarkable in a couple of months. 

 

Looking forward to the North-South line next. I see latest thinking is Lothian Road and through the meadows rather than the Bridges.

[EIEIO]

16 hours ago, Spellczech said:

I'm sure "lessons will be learned" etc...

Some seemed to have been learned on the project to complete the line to Newhaven. Though it should have been  "easy" as they presumably made some  progress during the first abandoned attempt.

I'm in favour of trams and improved rail links but the original project was managed disgracefully. 

As others have said what's the point of an inquiry ? No one was sacked or put in jail for their actions or lack of.

[Randy Marsh]

22 minutes ago, pablo said:

Love the trams. The difference the Newhaven line has made to Leith is remarkable in a couple of months. 

 

Looking forward to the North-South line next. I see latest thinking is Lothian Road and through the meadows rather than the Bridges.

This. The new extension is tremendous.  Was at my mum's in Newhaven a few weeks back.  Was going to the Hearts match and it only took about 30 minutes to get to Haymarket.  Hopefully they are serious about extending it to Granton/Waterfront as there are 1000's of new flats getting built. 

[Unknown user]

20 hours ago, Jim_Duncan said:

Why is there such an incredibly high level of ineptitude in this country?

(That’s Scotland and/or the UK before any of the Indy-Union warriors start picking apart the idea of what a country is and isn’t.)

 

The same happens everywhere, the extra underground spur in Amsterdam went years and billions over schedule because buildings were starting to subside.

[The Real Maroonblood]

32 minutes ago, Randy Marsh said:

This. The new extension is tremendous.  Was at my mum's in Newhaven a few weeks back.  Was going to the Hearts match and it only took about 30 minutes to get to Haymarket.  Hopefully they are serious about extending it to Granton/Waterfront as there are 1000's of new flats getting built. 

That is one advantage of staying in the dark side.

My son also stays there and getting to the airport is a dawdle.

[The Old Tolbooth]

21 hours ago, manaliveits105 said:

Enquiry costs more than the Iraq War inquiry 

Scottish government response to criticism (unable to blame the Tories) is basically the enquiry has got it wrong and cost too much 

 

 

Even though they didn't want it and were outvoted by yoons...

 

Looking forward to the HS2 vanity project enquiry though  

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 minute ago, The Old Tolbooth said:

 

Even though they didn't want it and were outvoted by yoons...

 

Looking forward to the HS2 vanity project enquiry though  

[PortyJambo]

41 minutes ago, The Old Tolbooth said:

 

Even though they didn't want it and were outvoted by yoons...

 

Looking forward to the HS2 vanity project enquiry though  

Edinburgh trams - we went £400m over budget

HS2 - haud ma beer....

[Thunder and Lightning]

Was Budge the Builders involved?

[Carl Fredrickson]

I live out of town and the bus service is irregular and takes ages. The train is my preferred option when going into Edinburgh but have had issues the last few times. 

Parking charges are mental.

In August my kids wanted to go to the Royal Mile to see street acts. Parked at Ocean Terminal and got the tram. Reasonably priced, quick, clean and is now our choice of transport when going into the city centre. 

 

 

[The Old Tolbooth]

1 hour ago, PortyJambo said:

Edinburgh trams - we went £400m over budget

HS2 - haud ma beer....

 

And Scotland had to pay for some of the HS2 vanity project, yet we had to fund our own trams and Queensferry Crossing...

[Spellczech]

2 hours ago, pablo said:

Love the trams. The difference the Newhaven line has made to Leith is remarkable in a couple of months. 

 

Looking forward to the North-South line next. I see latest thinking is Lothian Road and through the meadows rather than the Bridges.

That's because the bridges are not structurally sound enough to take the weight of trams I would expect...

 

Trams are a vanity project by a council which decided to be backward-looking rather than forward-looking. If they ever make it into a system it might have some value but I've never been on a tram. Only upshot for me has been that they removed the 35 bus to the airport which used to cost me 1.50 to get there, and replaced it with the 300 which cost same £4.50 as the tram and the 100 bus it never managed to replace, and then removed the 300 bus so now I take taxis to the airport...What I have learned is that it only costs £13 to take an Uber to the Hilton Doubletree and £18-23to go to the airport drop-off. Trams basically cost me ten times as much to get to the airport!

[Spellczech]

1 hour ago, PortyJambo said:

Edinburgh trams - we went £400m over budget

HS2 - haud ma beer....

You are comparing 11.5miles/ 43mph top speed to 330 miles/ 225mph top speed. It is like comparing from 20th century to 21st century...