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Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues

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Still Tynie

Wonder what the carbon footprint figures are to construct the second half of the route to Newhaven and how many new forests the clowncil will need to plant to compensate 

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Francis Albert
14 hours ago, Smithee said:

I'd happily have public transport run at a loss. It's a service to the public, it's exactly where tax money should be going, but in the modern age profit is everything and making a loss often seems to be seen as morally wrong no matter what the context is. 

Agreed. Public transport is heavily subsidised in most of the world … even in bastions of capitalism like the USA and Singapore, and for good reason. Life in both cities and countryside would be impossible for many without affordable public transport.

No-one (or at least very few) argue that the health service, education, the armed forces etc should be profitable,

One thing I would say is that free transport for everyone over a certain age (from which I benefit)  seems a needless extravagance.

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Dunks
15 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Could you give details of which routes receive subsidies?

Any information on your second sentence would also be appreciated.

 

 

I'll have a wee look later if I get the chance - mostly spread across various council reports as subsidised routes go out to tender. I seem to recall seeing route 19 as commercial during peak times and run by Lothian with the off peak run by First as lowest tender. That was a while back. Once First withdrew, Lothian got it for £150k pa - almost double the First subsidy.

 

FWIW I agree with subsidised public transport and note that some cities provide free transport in their city centres. They justify this through the reduction in traffic/congestion/climate impact.

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davemclaren
18 hours ago, FWJ said:

Aye.

There’s been a few wild guesses on this thread - trams not running to the airport - having to get a shuttle bus to the terminal, trams not running at all, the 100 being withdrawn to force people to use the trams, breakdowns left, right and centre causing traffic chaos, riots as people are stung for £1000 fines, businesses deserting the city - tourists deserting it too (how’s that working out?) tramline being abandoned because no-one is using it.

 

The trams are working great, doing what they were meant to do and proving very popular.

The airport one was the funniest to be fair. 

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pablo

The tram running to Newhaven is going to open up a lot of brownfield sites for housing in the north. If this section is as successful as I expect it to be, there will be a proper network within 20 years with a north-south route, and a city centre loop between Haymarket and the Southside. 

 

 

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Mikey1874
19 hours ago, Dunks said:

 

I can't think of any public transport providers in Scotland that make a profit when you take subsidy into account.

 

What subsidy?

 

(Edinburgh Council does pay for loss making routes eg Ratho but if they didn't the services would not run)

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Mikey1874
13 hours ago, Old Castle Rock said:

Wonder what the carbon footprint figures are to construct the second half of the route to Newhaven and how many new forests the clowncil will need to plant to compensate 

 

Good point

 

After Elton John said it was okay I'm planning to buy a private jet and offset by recycling cans and bottles (for the 20p when  it starts). 

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Francis Albert
15 hours ago, Old Castle Rock said:

Wonder what the carbon footprint figures are to construct the second half of the route to Newhaven and how many new forests the clowncil will need to plant to compensate 

Surely you have to look at the carbon footprint beyond the construction phase and into its working life taking account in this case of displacement of car and bus usage.

Otherwise any carbon reducing project would fail at the first hurdle as all would show a positive (or negative as in damaging) carbon footprint during the construction phase and so not on your test happen.

Edited by Francis Albert

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Dunks
4 hours ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

What subsidy?

 

(Edinburgh Council does pay for loss making routes eg Ratho but if they didn't the services would not run)

 

See further up thread - loads of routes are subsidised and for good reason :thumbsup:

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Mikey1874
21 minutes ago, Dunks said:

 

See further up thread - loads of routes are subsidised and for good reason :thumbsup:

 

The only subsidised routes are routes that Lothian Buses say they would not run that the Council agree to fund. 

 

No other reason. Lothian Buses is 100% run commercially. 

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Dunks
32 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

The only subsidised routes are routes that Lothian Buses say they would not run that the Council agree to fund. 

 

No other reason. Lothian Buses is 100% run commercially. 

 

Exactly - that what subsidies are for. LB has to tender for those routes, but the competition is dwindling. 

 

LB being in public ownership is a good thing.

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Smithee
56 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

The only subsidised routes are routes that Lothian Buses say they would not run that the Council agree to fund. 

 

No other reason. Lothian Buses is 100% run commercially. 

 

Who owns LB again?

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Mikey1874
5 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

Who owns LB again?

 

Doesn't matter.

 

And it's been a long time, but I think the rules are they have to run commercially.

 

The Council just pay to run services Lothian Buses refuse to do. Ratho is one. The one from Hanover Street to the Scottish Parliament is another. It's on ongoing negotiation and consultation also including local communities.

 

There may be changes. Scottish Government has a new transport strategy including improving bus services  with priority on mostly rural areas that Stagecoach shut down. 

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The Real Maroonblood
6 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Doesn't matter.

 

And it's been a long time, but I think the rules are they have to run commercially.

 

The Council just pay to run services Lothian Buses refuse to do. Ratho is one. The one from Hanover Street to the Scottish Parliament is another. It's on ongoing negotiation and consultation also including local communities.

 

There may be changes. Scottish Government has a new transport strategy including improving bus services  with priority on mostly rural areas that Stagecoach shut down. 

The No 63 is another one.

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Smithee
8 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Doesn't matter.

 

And it's been a long time, but I think the rules are they have to run commercially.

 

The Council just pay to run services Lothian Buses refuse to do. Ratho is one. The one from Hanover Street to the Scottish Parliament is another. It's on ongoing negotiation and consultation also including local communities.

 

There may be changes. Scottish Government has a new transport strategy including improving bus services  with priority on mostly rural areas that Stagecoach shut down. 

 

It does matter when the council own the bus company, it means they get the profits from the profitable lines and subsidise the unprofitable lines as public services. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

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pablo
21 minutes ago, Smithee said:

 

It does matter when the council own the bus company, it means they get the profits from the profitable lines and subsidise the unprofitable lines as public services. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

 

Indeed. It's also worth noting that trams and buses do  different things. That's why tram stops are further apart than bus stops. The same applies for the Underground and buses in London. The tram/metro system moves people in and out, the bus offers a hopper service. As Edinburgh expands, this is what will happen just as it does in cities around the world.

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Dunks
1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

The Council just pay to run services Lothian Buses refuse to do. Ratho is one. The one from Hanover Street to the Scottish Parliament is another. It's on ongoing negotiation and consultation also including local communities.

 

 

Routes 12, 13, 17, 18, 20, 24, 42, 48, X48, 60, 63, N16, N26 and N44 are all subsidised routes in Edinburgh. There are more of course in East, West and Midlothian :thumbsup:

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Seymour M Hersh
7 hours ago, Dunks said:

 

Routes 12, 13, 17, 18, 20, 24, 42, 48, X48, 60, 63, N16, N26 and N44 are all subsidised routes in Edinburgh. There are more of course in East, West and Midlothian :thumbsup:

 

I don't think the 13 is a Lothian bus anymore. 

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The Real Maroonblood
1 hour ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I don't think the 13 is a Lothian bus anymore. 

Neither is the No 18.

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3fingersreid

I’m curious to see how , with the exception of the  Pilrig street junction ,  the suggested no right turns onto Leith walk from the various side streets will work out .. 

 

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ArcticJambo
On 11/10/2019 at 15:22, Cade said:

 

Untitled.jpg

 

London Road relegated to a side street.  :lol:

 

Folks coming in from the East of the city going anywhere west of centre ... good luck!:berra:

Edited by ArcticJambo

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EIEIO
18 hours ago, pablo said:

The tram running to Newhaven is going to open up a lot of brownfield sites for housing in the north. If this section is as successful as I expect it to be, there will be a proper network within 20 years with a north-south route, and a city centre loop between Haymarket and the Southside. 

 

 

Extension will rrun through one of the most densely populated parts of city as well as opening up other areas for development towards granton.

Problem with buses in Edinburgh is the fact they all , pretty much, go via Princes Street creating big delays.  This has to change more buses should terminate at eg Haymarket, Waverly Market and top of Leith walk/York Place with people switching to tram for onward journeys. Tickets would obviously need to be interchangeable, this happens in a many cities in UK and abroad so is not an obstacle.

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Dunks
4 hours ago, Seymour M Hersh said:

 

I don't think the 13 is a Lothian bus anymore. 

 

2 hours ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Neither is the No 18.

 

Yeah, that's why I said Edinburgh subsidised route without mentioning the current operator :thumbsup:

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logie green
1 hour ago, 3fingersreid said:

I’m curious to see how , with the exception of the  Pilrig street junction ,  the suggested no right turns onto Leith walk from the various side streets will work out .. 

 

eh? do you mean you won't be able to turn into leith walk from mcdonald road or annandale st and head towards town? or from brunswick, albert and dalmeny st's to go down the walk?

not doubting you just curious

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Seymour M Hersh
20 minutes ago, Dunks said:

 

 

Yeah, that's why I said Edinburgh subsidised route without mentioning the current operator :thumbsup:

 

Is that why the operator of the 13 route was denied when they wanted to increase the timetable?

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Herbert

why did they not just do this when the original line went down?

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3fingersreid
1 minute ago, logie green said:

eh? do you mean you won't be able to turn into leith walk from mcdonald road or annandale st and head towards town? or from brunswick, albert and dalmeny st's to go down the walk?

not doubting you just curious

That’s what I’ve been told and from a councillor too. 

Mcdonald rd and Annandale st will probably be right turns but from what he said the rest are left turns only , no crossing over tram lines . 

For example coming out of Lorne street and you want to go to say Junction street the suggested route will be go via Easter road as you can’t turn right onto leith walk .

Balfour street to go to the Omni centre , come out Balfour street and head DOWN the walk and either turn to come back up from Easter road or from Bonnington road . It’s basically a loop as far as I can make out . 

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Still Tynie
9 minutes ago, Herbert said:

why did they not just do this when the original line went down?

Think they had used up all the money

a Billion smakarooneys on 8miles of track 

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Cade
25 minutes ago, Herbert said:

why did they not just do this when the original line went down?

Leith Walk was dug up for about three years in preparation for the tram coming down it.

Then they ran out of money.

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FWJ

Then the trams started turning a profit (earlier than expected) and so it’s been straightforward for them to get a commercial loan for the extension - particularly since when complete numbers using the service will double and an associated increase in revenue from fares.

Lots of people comment that the tram ‘doesn’t go anywhere near me’.  Putting it through the most densely populated part of the city (indeed, country) should help.

 

Also, as someone noted upthread a bit, Leith Walk has numerous bus routes leading to ‘bunching’, something that the trams should help reduce.

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3fingersreid
23 minutes ago, FWJ said:

Then the trams started turning a profit (earlier than expected) and so it’s been straightforward for them to get a commercial loan for the extension - particularly since when complete numbers using the service will double and an associated increase in revenue from fares.

Lots of people comment that the tram ‘doesn’t go anywhere near me’.  Putting it through the most densely populated part of the city (indeed, country) should help.

 

Also, as someone noted upthread a bit, Leith Walk has numerous bus routes leading to ‘bunching’, something that the trams should help reduce.

Genuine question , what’s the figures for the profit in the trams and by that I mean the income from fares and adverts/wraps versus the payments to lenders ? 
 


Im sure there was some monies claimed from the bus service was there not ? 

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FWJ
30 minutes ago, 3fingersreid said:

Genuine question , what’s the figures for the profit in the trams and by that I mean the income from fares and adverts/wraps versus the payments to lenders ? 
 


Im sure there was some monies claimed from the bus service was there not ? 

There was talk of an extraordinary dividend of £20 million from Lothian Buses I believe.

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Mikey1874
1 hour ago, 3fingersreid said:

Genuine question , what’s the figures for the profit in the trams and by that I mean the income from fares and adverts/wraps versus the payments to lenders ? 
 


Im sure there was some monies claimed from the bus service was there not ? 

 

Still making a loss.

 

They initially said it was making money but failed to account for costs and loan payments. 

 

They also recently brought all the maintenance under the same budget. 

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FWJ

My understanding is that it was always known the trams would take on the maintainance etc costs after a few years and they’ve started this earlier than planned because they’ve been so successful.

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The Real Maroonblood
23 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Still making a loss.

 

They initially said it was making money but failed to account for costs and loan payments. 

 

They also recently brought all the maintenance under the same budget. 

The £800M it cost for this protect it will takes years for the trams to make a profit.

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FWJ
Cade

Scotrail projects usually cover the exact distance promised.

 

Originally the Embra Tramz was costed at £350million for three entire lines.

 

What we got was half of one line for £800million and the city council stuck paying interest payments of £14.3million per year for the next 30 years while basic services (and buildings) continue to crumble.

 

:fonzie:

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FWJ
21 minutes ago, Cade said:

Scotrail projects usually cover the exact distance promised.

 

Originally the Embra Tramz was costed at £350million for three entire lines.

 

What we got was half of one line for £800million and the city council stuck paying interest payments of £14.3million per year for the next 30 years while basic services (and buildings) continue to crumble.

 

:fonzie:

The £350 million was the very earliest estimate - similarly the AWPR earliest estimate was £295m - it’s now estimated to be around £1billion.

It was also for two lines, the third (down to the Royal) was to be paid for from the congestion charge.

And we got rather more than ‘half’ of one line (Original Line 2) (14 / 18 kms)

 

 

 

 

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Nicholas Brody

The Fly Half pub on constitution street is now up for sale because of the impact of the tram works. 

 

End of march is when Easter Road and Leith Walk become one way. Should be a laugh.

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Ray has bus pass hooray
1 hour ago, Nicholas Brody said:

The Fly Half pub on constitution street is now up for sale because of the impact of the tram works. 

 

End of march is when Easter Road and Leith Walk become one way. Should be a laugh.

noticed that the council are looking at the whole Granton-Gypsy Brae future development costing £1.3billion it includes trams running to Granton, 3200 new homes, regenerating the old railway station, the gas works, doing up old shipping containers to use as craft shops, cafes etc, pubs, restaurants nice walk between Granton and Gypsy Brae would imagine that it will link with Cramond as well. Timescale 10-15 years don't hold your breath.

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muldoon74

I applied last year for trainee tram driver. Got to online test stage but they kept putting it back 2/3 months. 

 

I was, sent an email saying to fill out form online and I'd go straight yo online testing this time for definate... 6 weeks on i'm still waiting for a reply/further instructions having basically filled out entire application form again. 

 

Anyone in similar position regarding recruitment into the trams? 

 

Seems fairly farcical to me. 

 

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Ribble
2 hours ago, Nicholas Brody said:

The Fly Half pub on constitution street is now up for sale because of the impact of the tram works. 

 

End of march is when Easter Road and Leith Walk become one way. Should be a laugh.

 

Fly half has been sitting almost empty most days since it changed from the constitution to the black fox 2, trams a convenient excuse for the fact it's a huge pub with not enough customers to fill it regardless of whether or not the road outside is closed

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Randy Marsh
3 hours ago, Nicholas Brody said:

The Fly Half pub on constitution street is now up for sale because of the impact of the tram works. 

 

End of march is when Easter Road and Leith Walk become one way. Should be a laugh.

 

That's a shame that.  Good wee pub.  Was in there last month on a Saturday but is was fairly quite.

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Randy Marsh

Would be cool if Edinburgh had a Subway system like Glasgow.  Probably cost a shitload though.

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Justin Z
55 minutes ago, Randy Marsh said:

Would be cool if Edinburgh had a Subway system like Glasgow.  Probably cost a shitload though.

 

I thought I heard somewhere it wasn't feasible because of the historical infrastructure underneath the city. But I'm too lazy to go looking again for what I'd read :lol:

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Randy Marsh
10 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

I thought I heard somewhere it wasn't feasible because of the historical infrastructure underneath the city. But I'm too lazy to go looking again for what I'd read :lol:

 

I would be quite interested to know myself.  You would think in this day and age it would be possible to have 1 line at least.  Maybe looping round Princess St - Lothian Rd - Tollcross - Grassmarket - Royal Mile.   Or something like that.😂

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3fingersreid
1 hour ago, Ribble said:

 

Fly half has been sitting almost empty most days since it changed from the constitution to the black fox 2, trams a convenient excuse for the fact it's a huge pub with not enough customers to fill it regardless of whether or not the road outside is closed

 

1 hour ago, Randy Marsh said:

 

That's a shame that.  Good wee pub.  Was in there last month on a Saturday but is was fairly quite.

So is it a huge pub or a wee pub ?

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Randy Marsh
2 minutes ago, 3fingersreid said:

 

So is it a huge pub or a wee pub ?

 

Not massive but think it does have an extra function room behind the bar.  Medium sized but good screens for watching football.

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3fingersreid
1 minute ago, Randy Marsh said:

 

Not massive but think it does have an extra function room behind the bar.  Medium sized but good screens for watching football.

👍🏻👍🏻

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Nicholas Brody
4 hours ago, Randy Marsh said:

 

That's a shame that.  Good wee pub.  Was in there last month on a Saturday but is was fairly quite.

 

I've only ever really been in when there's been a big game on and it was usually quite busy. Other than that, it's not a pub I would usually bother going to. The port next door is a much better pub and it seems to be doing alright with the works. 

 

I got thrown out the fly half for accidentally chucking a pint over a barman carrying someone's food when Scotland went 2-1 up against England :jj:

 

Thought we'd won it untill my mates came out and told me they had equalised :muggy:

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