Edinburgh Trams Farce Continues

[Dawnrazor]

What's the thoughts on the trams?

I've been in them a couple of times going to the rugby and football and thought they were great!

Park at Ingleston but a family travel ticket and you're there before you know it, I was impressed. 

 

[Governor Tarkin]

22 minutes ago, Dawnrazor said:

What's the thoughts on the trams?

I've been in them a couple of times going to the rugby and football and thought they were great!

Park at Ingleston but a family travel ticket and you're there before you know it, I was impressed. 

 

 

Had the wee man on them yesterday. He's too young to know that they aren't the choo choo trains. Ran back and forth a few times between Balgreen and Hermiston Gait. You should've seen his wee face. 

[Dawnrazor]

Just now, Governor Tarkin said:

 

Had the wee man on them yesterday. He's too young to know that they aren't the choo choo trains. Ran back and forth a few times between Balgreen and Hermiston Gait. You should've seen his wee face. 

😆

I did a similar thing with my lad about 7 years ago, he was doing a project at primary school about London, he asked if we could go so I said we'd go that weekend, he was delighted, so, on the Saturday morning we set off for "London", he was asleep after 10 minutes in the car, we went to Preston, he woke up and was convinced we were in London, every time he asked where "the Queens house" or "The big wheel thing" or "Big Ben" was we just said "on the other side of London and we don't have time to go today but we'll come back soon and see them". A Burger King then, 10 minutes on the M6 he was sound asleep happy in the knowledge he'd been to London.

[Harry Potter]

12 hours ago, weehammy said:

Nobody involved will still be alive when the Inquiry reports.

Total farce from start to finish, 

[cheetah]

14 hours ago, Dawnrazor said:

What's the thoughts on the trams?

I've been in them a couple of times going to the rugby and football and thought they were great!

Park at Ingleston but a family travel ticket and you're there before you know it, I was impressed. 

 

 

Been decent for us, can stay at hotels out in Edinburgh park (pretty cheap) and easy 20 min trip in the tram.

 

City centre hotels are mentally priced.

[Shanks said no]

We went to the public meeting in the Gyle a few weeks ago to hear about the Councils plans to close roads near Craigmount under the guise of making the area Covid safe. Around 1000 turned up. 
 

Give Councillor McInnes her due, she was facing a pretty hostile crowd. She started waxing lyrically about Edinburgh Trams. Laughter erupted and she almost lost it. Obviously didn’t appreciate the widely held view that the tram project has been a joke. 
 

 

[CJGJ]

Shock Horror the council decide it's cheaper to continue with Trams build rather than cancel

 

However 'would probably be' is the phrase used...what does that mean...are they incapable of doing the maths 

 

Of course the anti car transport council convener Lesley MacInnes prefers to ignore any other thoughts but then again it's not her money

 

The report said in all but one of the scenarios it considered, the impact on council reserves of cancelling the project would be greater than continuing construction.

On Thursday, councillors will consider the final business case and vote on whether to continue with the project.

 

 

[Stuart Lyon]

9 hours ago, CJGJ said:

Shock Horror the council decide it's cheaper to continue with Trams build rather than cancel

 

However 'would probably be' is the phrase used...what does that mean...are they incapable of doing the maths 

 

Of course the anti car transport council convener Lesley MacInnes prefers to ignore any other thoughts but then again it's not her money

 

The report said in all but one of the scenarios it considered, the impact on council reserves of cancelling the project would be greater than continuing construction.

On Thursday, councillors will consider the final business case and vote on whether to continue with the project.

 

 

As I said in the seethe thread this situation with significantly reduced income must also impact on the finances of the original phase! Bet the CeC won't declare the figures!

[frankblack]

12 hours ago, CJGJ said:

Shock Horror the council decide it's cheaper to continue with Trams build rather than cancel

 

However 'would probably be' is the phrase used...what does that mean...are they incapable of doing the maths 

 

Of course the anti car transport council convener Lesley MacInnes prefers to ignore any other thoughts but then again it's not her money

 

The report said in all but one of the scenarios it considered, the impact on council reserves of cancelling the project would be greater than continuing construction.

On Thursday, councillors will consider the final business case and vote on whether to continue with the project.

 

 

 

What that means is that they will introduce more speed cameras and ways to tax drivers such as force through a congestion charge as a "covid safety measure".

[FWJ]

Yup.

Just like it would probably never be built

Or it would probably never reach the airport and you’d probably have to get a bus from the tram stop to the terminal building.

And the busses would probably be decimated by the trams and the Airport bus would probably be discontinued to give the tram a face-saving monopoly.

And it would probably never carry any passengers and there would probably be fights and riots as conductors demanded £1000 fines.

And there would probably be daily chaos as trams broke down left, right and centre.

 

Turns our the trams work and work well.  Until Covid, passenger numbers were rising every year and they had started to turn a profit.  Passenger satisfaction with the service was in the high 90%s.

Most people now think that they are working well and a useful addition to the (rapidly expanding) city’s transport mix.

My understanding is that Glasgow is now another city giving serious consideration to re-introducing a tram service.

[Dunks]

On 20/02/2020 at 16:04, Randy Marsh said:

Would be cool if Edinburgh had a Subway system like Glasgow.  Probably cost a shitload though.

 

Edinburgh is mainly built on rock, Glasgow isn't

[Dunks]

On 13/10/2019 at 17:20, The Real Maroonblood said:

The £800M it cost for this protect it will takes years for the trams to make a profit.

 

This is an often quoted criticism of the project and a rather lazy one at that. While the capital costs rocketed, the ongoing operation of the trams is always about reaching sustainability i.e. cover the operating costs.

 

As an example, the Queensferry Crossing cost around £1.3bn, bit it's free to use. There is no income to cover the build cost or indeed the maintenance cost. Just like most other capital projects.

 

Whether you like them or not, the trams have been an operational success.

[Dunks]

1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

What that means is that they will introduce more speed cameras and ways to tax drivers such as force through a congestion charge as a "covid safety measure".

 

Speed camera revenue does not go to the council

[SE16 3LN]

19 minutes ago, Dunks said:

 

This is an often quoted criticism of the project and a rather lazy one at that. While the capital costs rocketed, the ongoing operation of the trams is always about reaching sustainability i.e. cover the operating costs.

 

As an example, the Queensferry Crossing cost around £1.3bn, bit it's free to use. There is no income to cover the build cost or indeed the maintenance cost. Just like most other capital projects.

 

Whether you like them or not, the trams have been an operational success.

So as long as you ignore the capital costs, the corruption, the small businesses that went under while roads were needlessly closed/disrupted and the fact that its only useful to a small part of the City, its great.

 

To be honest once its extended to ALL parts of Edinburgh it might have use value to enough people to make it worthwhile. I suspect though, in the post Covid world, behaviour will change so much that not many residents will use it to travel to offices and shops and it will be mainly a tourist mode of transport, or for those travelling to sporting events etc. 

 

In thirty years time people will ask what the fuss is about.

[Dunks]

1 hour ago, SE16 3LN said:

So as long as you ignore the capital costs, the corruption, the small businesses that went under while roads were needlessly closed/disrupted and the fact that its only useful to a small part of the City, its great.

 

 

Don't ignore it - but don't expect the operation of the trams to pay for it. And while it doesn't address the whole city, the bit that's there is operating well.

[Heartsmad1874]

Used to work at the Ingliston P&R office, visitors always wanted to take the Tram for the novelty of it but there was a lot of Scottish folk with bus passes determined to take a bus when there wasn't one cause they hated that 'their money paid for the trams but they canny use their free pass'.

 

Folk also hated paying the full Airport price for just going one stop  

[The Real Maroonblood]

2 hours ago, Heartsmad1874 said:

Used to work at the Ingliston P&R office, visitors always wanted to take the Tram for the novelty of it but there was a lot of Scottish folk with bus passes determined to take a bus when there wasn't one cause they hated that 'their money paid for the trams but they canny use their free pass'.

 

Folk also hated paying the full Airport price for just going one stop  

Their passes are valid on the trams.

[Heartsmad1874]

Just now, The Real Maroonblood said:

Their passes are valid on the trams.

Only Edinburgh council issued and blind issued ones. People from Glasgow and Ayrshire etc always used to grumble cause theirs weren't, unless its changed since i left back in August last year.

[The Real Maroonblood]

1 minute ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

Only if you are  Edinburgh resident you can use your bus pass on the tram.

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

Just now, The Real Maroonblood said:

 

I was a bit late with my edit.

[Heartsmad1874]

1 minute ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

I was a bit late with my edit.

Haha all good. Some folk got pissed off when i told them they had to pay £3.20 or so.

[Spellczech]

Is it the same idiots doing Phase 2 who made such a mess of Phase 1? I used to live in Munich where they had a great trams network - but that was the thing, a network requires intersections and multiple lines. So far we have one meandering line which most residents have no real need for - is it intended for tourists to/from the Airport and Fifers to Park & Ride? - and it seems to be taking forever to extend it about a 2 miles down Leith Walk to the the SG Executive offices...It is a truly great warning against Independence and not much else...

[Tommy Brown]

5 hours ago, Dunks said:

As an example, the Queensferry Crossing cost around £1.3bn, bit it's free to use. There is no income to cover the build cost or indeed the maintenance cost. Just like most other capital projects.

 

Sitting here thinking ()

Who actually maintains the road bridges, do both councils split the costs.

[Dunks]

1 hour ago, Tommy Brown said:

 

Sitting here thinking ()

Who actually maintains the road bridges, do both councils split the costs.

 

Bear operate the contract funded by Transport Scotland funded by Scottish Government

 

[Malinga the Swinga]

7 hours ago, Dunks said:

 

This is an often quoted criticism of the project and a rather lazy one at that. While the capital costs rocketed, the ongoing operation of the trams is always about reaching sustainability i.e. cover the operating costs.

 

As an example, the Queensferry Crossing cost around £1.3bn, bit it's free to use. There is no income to cover the build cost or indeed the maintenance cost. Just like most other capital projects.

 

Whether you like them or not, the trams have been an operational success.

Pretty rubbish example. We need bridge, we don't/didn't  need tram. 

Ultimate vanity project along with Scottish Parliament. 

Amazing how country short of money but we find it for things like this. 

[SE16 3LN]

5 hours ago, Dunks said:

 

Don't ignore it - but don't expect the operation of the trams to pay for it. And while it doesn't address the whole city, the bit that's there is operating well.

I know, and in a few decades the next generation will probably wonder what everybody was moaning about.

[Stuart Lyon]

From today's Herald

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18861635.snp-told-dig-deep-prop-edinburghs-tram-extension/

[Dunks]

Hurrah! More trams on the way 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-56040370

[The Real Maroonblood]

8 hours ago, Dunks said:

Hurrah! More trams on the way 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-56040370

Great news.

More roadworks is what Edinburgh needs.

[Famous 1874]

Ah yes more trams, just what Edinburgh need... Convinced people on the council are weegie idiots who are determined to **** Edinburgh up. Didn’t need them in the first place and don’t need more of them, especially since we have the UK’s best bus service. 

[cheetah]

we should get these trackless trams, much easier project.

[Stuart Lyon]

19 minutes ago, cheetah said:

we should get these trackless trams, much easier project.

Far too sensible an idea for the clowns at the CeC.

[Sharpie]

I don't know if its  irony or just another memory, but its strange to be able to recall in 1956 working as a policeman doing traffic and other duties resulting from the removal of tram lines. Now here I am reading about the probable for some younger people to be doing similar duties for the expansion of tram lines. 

 

[Boof]

On 10/11/2020 at 12:17, Dunks said:

 

Edinburgh is mainly built on rock, Glasgow isn't

 

How's about an overground subway...

 

[moshy]

What will be finished first? the tram down to Leith or the dualling of the a9 😄

[Seymour M Hersh]

19 hours ago, moshy said:

What will be finished first? the tram down to Leith or the dualling of the a9 😄

 

Or Boris's tunnel to NI from Stranraer? 

[maroongoals]

In the evening news the current build is £6m over budget so far, must be great spending other peoples money.

 

Edinburgh tram extension £6 million over-spend could be 'history repeating itself' warns councillor

An Edinburgh councillor has warned that ‘history is repeating itself’ as it was revealed the council’s tram extension project has already spent £6 million more than it had been expected to at this stage.

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/edinburgh-tram-extension-ps6-million-over-spend-could-be-history-repeating-itself-warns-councillor-3343022

[The Real Maroonblood]

35 minutes ago, maroongoals said:

In the evening news the current build is £6m over budget so far, must be great spending other peoples money.

 

Edinburgh tram extension £6 million over-spend could be 'history repeating itself' warns councillor

An Edinburgh councillor has warned that ‘history is repeating itself’ as it was revealed the council’s tram extension project has already spent £6 million more than it had been expected to at this stage.

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/edinburgh-tram-extension-ps6-million-over-spend-could-be-history-repeating-itself-warns-councillor-3343022

It'll never make any money. 

[pablo]

37 minutes ago, maroongoals said:

In the evening news the current build is £6m over budget so far, must be great spending other peoples money.

 

Edinburgh tram extension £6 million over-spend could be 'history repeating itself' warns councillor

An Edinburgh councillor has warned that ‘history is repeating itself’ as it was revealed the council’s tram extension project has already spent £6 million more than it had been expected to at this stage.

 

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.com/news/politics/edinburgh-tram-extension-ps6-million-over-spend-could-be-history-repeating-itself-warns-councillor-3343022

 

Not being funny, but they're laying tracks through ancient streets in the most densely populated urban area in Scotland. Our main stand had a bigger overspend  😃

[pablo]

4 minutes ago, The Real Maroonblood said:

It'll never make any money. 

[Phage]

6m meh... gotta be done. It's in a few months when they say 75m overspend that I'll get upset

[Malinga the Swinga]

They can overspend all they want. There will still be the usual couple of posters who will attempt to justify this folly with smiles and platitudes.

Absolute ****ing joke what Edinburgh transport and council get away with.

[The Real Maroonblood]

6 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

They can overspend all they want. There will still be the usual couple of posters who will attempt to justify this folly with smiles and platitudes.

Absolute ****ing joke what Edinburgh transport and council get away with.

They’re an embarrassment.

[FWJ]

21 minutes ago, Deke Thornton said:

‘Working well’ for visitors and those residents living along the straight line from the airport to the city centre.

Absolutely useless for everyone else.

Yes it is working well for those people, so well in fact, until Covid, numbers were increasing by 10% a year.  And what better way to serve even more people than to have it go through the most densely populated part of the whole country - Leith Walk.

 

I don’t live in Galashiels.  The Borders Rail Line is ‘absolutely useless’ for me. Very happy to see it open though.

[maroondevo52]

My mum was knocked down by a tram in Edinburgh when she was a bairn, deaf in one ear ever since.

[Malinga the Swinga]

Didn't take long for chief apologist to appear.

[Jeffros Furios]

The only thing worse than the trams is the ****in tram drivers 

Bunch of weird looking bustards. 

Buy aye what a funking waste of money and they look horrible .

 

[FWJ]

2 hours ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Didn't take long for chief apologist to appear.

[Sharpie]

I have looked at graphs and pictures of the extensions, a bit different routing but very similar to the old tram lines. In my first year as an Edinburgh Polis, 1956 my most regular duties were a progression of advancements dealing with traffic problems as the old tram lines were being dug up and removed.In those same years the numbers of ordinary people just like myself were buying and using cars, the combination of cars buses and trams were a nightmare. I thought the innovation of trams from the airport to the City Centre was interesting, somewhat of a touristy toy, but still a contradiction of the purpose as I understood it to make road travel with the removal of the stagnancy of movement caused by the rail transport system more flexible. As happens so often history repeats itself and not always for the better.

[Cade]

In 2003, when the first Bills were passed in the Scottish Parliament, this was the entire planned network, expected to cost a total of £498 million for all three lines:

 

Line 1 was the loop from St Andrew's Square to Leith to Granton back to York Place.

 

Line 2 was the bit from Newbridge to St Andrew's Square.

Line 3 was the line from Haymarket to Musselburgh

 

 

Line 3 was scrapped when Edinburgh Coonsil lost their traffic congestion charge referendum in 2005, which was to fund that tram line.

 

Faced with mounting costs to the public purse, the SNP tried to scrap the entire scheme in 2007 but lost the vote in Parliament due to being a minority government at that time.

 

Line 1 got scrapped.

 

By 2010, the cost of the single remaining Line 2 had risen to £600million.

 

The Newbridge to Edinburgh Airport bit was scrapped.

 

By 2011, costs had risen to £770 million.

 

Edinburgh council tried to cut more of Line 2, terminating it at Haymarket, leaving the project with a single line running from the airport to Haymarket, a total distance of 7 miles (or £110 million a mile)

The Scottish Government then refused to provide any more funding unless the line was extended all the way to York Place.

Edinburgh Coonsil took out a £231 milllion loan at 100% interest.

The city will be paying off this loan debt to the tune of £15.4 million a year until 2041.

 

When factoring in this eye-watering loan interest, the final bill for the 8.5 mile line topped £1.2billion.

 

£144million a mile.

 

Embra Coonsil is currently in the process of extending the line to Newhaven. The projected cost for this is £144 million. Place yer bets on how far past that figure we end up on.