Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[TheMaganator]

George Galloway starting his "Just Say Naw" tour. His point appears to be that Scottish people would suddenly start ethnically cleansing the country of immigrants and Catholics in the event of independence.

 

Seems bizarre, but then I read this on Wings today.

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/careful-now/

 

wat

I'm not defending Galloway at all but I don't think that's his message at all. From what I've heard him say, he thinks poverty etc can be better fought as part of a Union.

 

I've never heard any of this Catholic cleansing nonsense from him. That's not to say it won't come from the Catholic Church but you'll forgive me for not wanting to listen to them on much at all.

 

I'm considering going to watch Galloway.

 

I've said it a hundred times on here. Wings over Scotland is run by a nasty piece of work. He's utterly appalling. The Yes campaign have distanced themselves from him. He uses images of dead British soldiers to promote independence. Please don't give his website traffic. He is the definition of a 'cyber Nat'

[jack D and coke]

 

 

I'm not defending Galloway at all but I don't think that's his message at all. From what I've heard him say, he thinks poverty etc can be better fought as part of a Union.

 

I've never heard any of this Catholic cleansing nonsense from him. That's not to say it won't come from the Catholic Church but you'll forgive me for not wanting to listen to them on much at all.

 

I'm considering going to watch Galloway.

 

I've said it a hundred times on here. Wings over Scotland is run by a nasty piece of work. He's utterly appalling. The Yes campaign have distanced themselves from him. He uses images of dead British soldiers to promote independence. Please don't give his website traffic. He is the definition of a 'cyber Nat'

I've been on the wings site plenty and I've never seen an image of a dead soldier. I'm not denying what your saying either about him being a nasty piece of work I don't know who the guy is tbh but he gets plenty right as well. He's obviously a clever guy whoever he is.

[redm]

Its mainly a west coast thing. Elements of Labour (going back to its founding in the 1890s) courted the catholic vote by arguing the Unionist Party was anti-catholic and pro-Church of Scotland. This was stoked up again by the likes of Galloway later on the emergence of the SNP. It was argued that catholics would suffer in an independent Scotland as the establishment would be presbyterian and anti-catholic schooling and ignore catholic sentiments.

 

There's always been an anti-catholicism in scottish life, more so in the 1890s and early 20th century. Sectarianism is a national disgrace. But such lines now are beneath politicians like Galloway. But old tricks die hard.

In the inter-war periods (reflective probably of the partition of Ireland post the Wars of Independence), there was significant sectarian hostility in Scotland (see John Cormack). At this time, the Irish Catholic vote settled around Labour as the best means of 'protection'.

 

It has been used in the past to suggest that Scottish independence would unleash these feelings. Quite why, I have no idea but then Scottish Labour likes to do that to its voters.

 

Thanks folks. I've read a bit about the history there and their relationship with the Labour party, I suppose I was really wondering if there was any reason in modern/recent times for Labour to be able to pick up that hook once again and for it to have impact.

 

My reaction to this concept is generally one of surprise given that religious organisations have increasingly reduced influence over political decision-making but I'm guessing that's maybe also part of their point in some ways.

[Ulysses]

George Galloway starting his "Just Say Naw" tour. His point appears to be that Scottish people would suddenly start ethnically cleansing the country of immigrants and Catholics in the event of independence.

 

Can you find me a reliable source for this assertion? I'm not a fan of Galloway, but if he isn't saying this then we don't want him falsely represented as saying it and we don't want this thread sent down a "sectarianism" cul-de-sac. I'll leave this with you for a while, but if I don't see something soon I'll be removing the comment and the associated sub-topic from the thread.

[redm]

I'm not defending Galloway at all but I don't think that's his message at all. From what I've heard him say, he thinks poverty etc can be better fought as part of a Union.

 

I've never heard any of this Catholic cleansing nonsense from him. That's not to say it won't come from the Catholic Church but you'll forgive me for not wanting to listen to them on much at all.

 

I'm considering going to watch Galloway.

 

I've said it a hundred times on here. Wings over Scotland is run by a nasty piece of work. He's utterly appalling. The Yes campaign have distanced themselves from him. He uses images of dead British soldiers to promote independence. Please don't give his website traffic. He is the definition of a 'cyber Nat'

 

I have heard him babbling on about this but not for a few years. I had the radio on late one night when I was working and he was doing that late night talk show thing he does/used to do and I was totally taken aback. He didn't quite go so far as to suggest 'cleansing' but he was going on about how catholics are still very much marginalised and oppressed in modern day Scotland but didn't really go into much detail about why he felt that way. I'd come to the point where I considered most of his rants as being the words of a mad self-publicising opportunist so I assumed he was probably doing his usual and being intentionally provocative.

[Ulysses]

Not all that many members voting in the JKB poll.

 

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/134460-scottish-independence-referendum-jkb-voting-intentions-november-2013/

[redm]

Can you find me a reliable source for this assertion? I'm not a fan of Galloway, but if he isn't saying this then we don't want him falsely represented as saying it and we don't want this thread sent down a "sectarianism" cul-de-sac. I'll leave this with you for a while, but if I don't see something soon I'll be removing the comment and the associated sub-topic from the thread.

 

Can't see a link to the original article but there is a follow-up here: http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/galloway-attacked-for-snp-catholic-slur.21116305

Goes on a bit about discrimination etc.

[redm]

Not all that many members voting in the JKB poll.

 

http://www.hmfckickb...-november-2013/

 

Was thinking people might not notice it up there if they're not following this thread.

Maybe unsticky for a bit?

[Ulysses]

Can't see a link to the original article but there is a follow-up here: http://www.heraldsco...c-slur.21116305

Goes on a bit about discrimination etc.

 

Thanks for that. As you say it's not the original article, but it's close enough.

[Patrick Bateman]

Can you find me a reliable source for this assertion? I'm not a fan of Galloway, but if he isn't saying this then we don't want him falsely represented as saying it and we don't want this thread sent down a "sectarianism" cul-de-sac. I'll leave this with you for a while, but if I don't see something soon I'll be removing the comment and the associated sub-topic from the thread.

 

I don't know about his particular tour, but he has form for saying things like this.

[jack D and coke]

 

 

 

Can't see a link to the original article but there is a follow-up here: http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/political-news/galloway-attacked-for-snp-catholic-slur.21116305

Goes on a bit about discrimination etc.

It's obviously not that far from away from what some Catholics feel cos like I say a few of my mates have said much the same to me. I hate the fact Scotland has this kind of crap to put out the way first before debating the actual issue.

[Boaby Ewing]

 

 

 

Was thinking people might not notice it up there if they're not following this thread.

Maybe unsticky for a bit?

 

I hadn't noticed it until now.

[Ulysses]

Was thinking people might not notice it up there if they're not following this thread.

Maybe unsticky for a bit?

 

Good advice, thanks, so we've done that.

 

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/134460-scottish-independence-referendum-jkb-voting-intentions-november-2013/

[redm]

It's obviously not that far from away from what some Catholics feel cos like I say a few of my mates have said much the same to me. I hate the fact Scotland has this kind of crap to put out the way first before debating the actual issue.

 

Some of it appears to stem from football actually and the Offensive Behaviour Bill. Apparently this bill (and the way the government handled it) is a reason why catholics continue to feel victimised by the authorities in this country. (Reading as we go!)

[Das Root]

 

Based on what the SNP proposals are, lefties would be even more disappointed than what they normally are.

 

 

Sir Charles Gray would appear to disagree.

[Das Root]

 

 

 

 

 

I've occasionally discussed this with quite a few friends and colleagues here over the past few months. They all just assume that Scotland will vote for independence. When I tell them that the opinion polls generally point to a No vote, they are surprised - and that's putting it mildly.

 

It's remarkable how something can be so glaringly obvious to Scots, and not at all obvious to foreigners - and the other way around.

 

 

I have read that the focus on Scotland for the run up to the day and after would be worth ?1bn in advertising revenue. Just find it odd that with the eyes of the world on us we would want to say...

 

"we just ain't good enough to make it on our own"

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

 

Sir Charles Gray would appear to disagree.

Apparently so.

[TheMaganator]

 

 

 

I have read that the focus on Scotland for the run up to the day and after would be worth ?1bn in advertising revenue. Just find it odd that with the eyes of the world on us we would want to say...

 

"we just ain't good enough to make it on our own"

That isn't what a No vote is saying at all. Countries have economic/political unions.

 

If this is the way you feel are you in favour if an independent Scotland not joining the EU?

[JamboX2]

 

 

 

Sir Charles Gray would appear to disagree.

 

No, Gray's press release via Yes Scotland said he believed Labour would win in 2016 if Yes won and called on his party to follow his lead into Yes and as Scotland's largest political party wipe the floor with the SNP.

[redm]

Humza Yousaf just tweeted this update:

 

Legatum Prosperity Index -Norway top spot, top 10 dominated by small independent European countries. UK falls to 16th http://www.prosperity.com/#!/

[JamboX2]

 

 

 

I have read that the focus on Scotland for the run up to the day and after would be worth ?1bn in advertising revenue. Just find it odd that with the eyes of the world on us we would want to say...

 

"we just ain't good enough to make it on our own"

 

Is that what Quebec told the world twice about themselves? Or was it more a "we wish to exercise political power domestically as part of a political union"?

 

I dont think the line that we will be humiliated globally if No wins is really valid. In fact I'd go as far to say why worry what others think? Its a decision for Scots to decide and the opinions of Kenyans, Malayans, Chinese, Americans and the like needn't sway our voting intentions.

 

It'll be a close vote on the day. So should No win it wont be by much and I'd expect it to see greater devolution as a result. Equally should Yes win it wont be a win of 60%+ but more in the 50-55% area.

[TheMaganator]

Humza Yousaf just tweeted this update:

 

Legatum Prosperity Index -Norway top spot, top 10 dominated by small independent European countries. UK falls to 16th http://www.prosperity.com/#!/

& Norway is in EFTA, not the EU.

[redm]

& Norway is in EFTA, not the EU.

 

Neither are Canada, Australia or New Zealand....

[TheMaganator]

 

 

Neither are Canada, Australia or New Zealand....

I know.

 

Yet people seem desperate to stay in the EU. It's clear you don't need to as a small nation. So what's out obsession with it?

[JamboX2]

 

 

Neither are Canada, Australia or New Zealand....

 

Point being you have far greater economic independence outwith currency and formal trade union. Its a catch 22 for an independent Scotland. Norweigian style independence or Danish/Irish style in the EU.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

A No vote may seem daft but they said that about the Aussie monarchial referendum.

 

In truth, what happened there is that the media and political activists got excited and most people didn't really care. They didn't see the point of changing something that didn't affect them.

 

While there are not straight comparisons, apathy could kill the Yes vote more than anything.

[reaths17]

A No vote may seem daft but they said that about the Aussie monarchial referendum.

 

In truth, what happened there is that the media and political activists got excited and most people didn't really care. They didn't see the point of changing something that didn't affect them.

 

While there are not straight comparisons, apathy could kill the Yes vote more than anything.

 

i think it's more the other way round. the yes campaign is a driven force with political motivation and an actual party/leader to follow and no is a "what you've got is what you'll get" and people not being driven might see them staying at home rather than having an actual thing/party to follow.

[Pans Jambo]

 

 

 

Is that what Quebec told the world twice about themselves? Or was it more a "we wish to exercise political power domestically as part of a political union"?

 

I dont think the line that we will be humiliated globally if No wins is really valid. In fact I'd go as far to say why worry what others think? Its a decision for Scots to decide and the opinions of Kenyans, Malayans, Chinese, Americans and the like needn't sway our voting intentions.

 

It'll be a close vote on the day. So should No win it wont be by much and I'd expect it to see greater devolution as a result. Equally should Yes win it wont be a win of 60%+ but more in the 50-55% area.

 

A greater devolution as a result????? Fat chance!

 

We are courted by the Westminster parties right now and will be dumped if No wins the day.

 

They will be bored with us. "You have had your wee parliament in Edinburgh & your devolution, your Calman and your referendum now go away as we have more important things to worry about" is exactly what they will say.

 

Then it reverts to Scottish interests having no voice in the Westminster parliament and the world stage!

 

If we are getting new powers and a greater devolution deal what is it/ are they???? No way you or anyone else can say because it does not exist and never will.

 

Even more nuclear weapons perhaps (than the largest assembled dump of nuclear bombs in one location in the world)?

 

 

 

[TheMaganator]

A greater devolution as a result????? Fat chance!

 

We are courted by the Westminster parties right now and will be dumped if No wins the day.

 

They will be bored with us. "You have had your wee parliament in Edinburgh & your devolution, your Calman and your referendum now go away as we have more important things to worry about" is exactly what they will say.

 

Then it reverts to Scottish interests having no voice in the Westminster parliament and the world stage!

 

If we are getting new powers and a greater devolution deal what is it/ are they???? No way you or anyone else can say because it does not exist and never will.

 

Even more nuclear weapons perhaps (than the largest assembled dump of nuclear bombs in one location in the world)?

This is one instance where you could maybe hold your breath.

 

I've heard rumours of a cross party devolurion announcement. Most likely to be early next year.

[Pans Jambo]

 

 

This is one instance where you could maybe hold your breath.

 

I've heard rumours of a cross party devolurion announcement. Most likely to be early next year.

Fair enough, although I don't really believe that they will offer anything of any real substance. We will see.

[TheMaganator]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24811658

 

One of the most senior legal figures in Scotland has described the law reform on corroboration as being potentially dangerous.

 

This is a centuries-old essential aspect of Scots law that the SNP are looking to get rid of in an attempt to win over female votes (to help with rape convictions). I know it is a line that is said often, but the SNP will say or do anything to get the result that they want.

 

That is not scaremongering.

 

I understand that they are a vehicle for Independence - but a movement that wants to see change should start with a cold hard look within. People complain about dodgy dealings in Westminster - do you really think that an independent Scotland with all of the main parties remaining with the addition of the equally dodgy SNP will be any different?

 

But still, no doubt, people wont criticise and wont rock the boat. A shameful period in Scotland's history where elected officials are not held to account or questioned.

[Das Root]

 

That isn't what a No vote is saying at all. Countries have economic/political unions.

 

If this is the way you feel are you in favour if an independent Scotland not joining the EU?

 

 

I would rather have an independent Scotland a member of the EU than a UK controlled Scotland forced to leave it.

 

Shall I presume you think Germany and France are not independent countries?

[Das Root]

 

 

No, Gray's press release via Yes Scotland said he believed Labour would win in 2016 if Yes won and called on his party to follow his lead into Yes and as Scotland's largest political party wipe the floor with the SNP.

 

 

On the STV programme last night he said he thought the SNP were further left than Labour at present. Scotland Tonight show.

[Das Root]

 

 

Is that what Quebec told the world twice about themselves? Or was it more a "we wish to exercise political power domestically as part of a political union"?

 

I dont think the line that we will be humiliated globally if No wins is really valid. In fact I'd go as far to say why worry what others think? Its a decision for Scots to decide and the opinions of Kenyans, Malayans, Chinese, Americans and the like needn't sway our voting intentions.

 

It'll be a close vote on the day. So should No win it wont be by much and I'd expect it to see greater devolution as a result. Equally should Yes win it wont be a win of 60%+ but more in the 50-55% area.

 

Quebec has never been an independent country that gave up sovereignty.

 

I thought Scotland was meant to be a world player with its union with the UK...but we don't care what world countries think of us? Odd.

[Das Root]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24811658

 

One of the most senior legal figures in Scotland has described the law reform on corroboration as being potentially dangerous.

 

This is a centuries-old essential aspect of Scots law that the SNP are looking to get rid of in an attempt to win over female votes (to help with rape convictions). I know it is a line that is said often, but the SNP will say or do anything to get the result that they want.

 

That is not scaremongering.

 

I understand that they are a vehicle for Independence - but a movement that wants to see change should start with a cold hard look within. People complain about dodgy dealings in Westminster - do you really think that an independent Scotland with all of the main parties remaining with the addition of the equally dodgy SNP will be any different?

 

But still, no doubt, people wont criticise and wont rock the boat. A shameful period in Scotland's history where elected officials are not held to account or questioned.

 

 

Not scaremongering? That's all you do

[reaths17]

On the STV programme last night he said he thought the SNP were further left than Labour at present. Scotland Tonight show.

 

thats what the maganator said "the SNP will say or do anything to get the result that they want"

 

manifesto type promises aren't worth a hill o beans. no party in my time has carried out a manifesto

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

Quebec has never been an independent country that gave up sovereignty.

 

I thought Scotland was meant to be a world player with its union with the UK...but we don't care what world countries think of us? Odd.

Why does that matter? Slovakia never existed as an independent country until the velvet divorce, nor did the Czech Republic.

[Das Root]

 

Why does that matter? Slovakia never existed as an independent country until the velvet divorce, nor did the Czech Republic.

 

 

Erm...might need to Czech your history there Geoff.

 

http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/history/czechoslovakia-history.html

 

 

Successor state so it appears...sounds a bit like?

[Das Root]

 

 

thats what the maganator said "the SNP will say or do anything to get the result that they want"

 

manifesto type promises aren't worth a hill o beans. no party in my time has carried out a manifesto

 

 

The guy said it himself on TV. Was he being worked like a puppet?

[reaths17]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...otland-24811658

 

One of the most senior legal figures in Scotland has described the law reform on corroboration as being potentially dangerous.

 

This is a centuries-old essential aspect of Scots law that the SNP are looking to get rid of in an attempt to win over female votes (to help with rape convictions). I know it is a line that is said often, but the SNP will say or do anything to get the result that they want.

 

That is not scaremongering.

 

I understand that they are a vehicle for Independence - but a movement that wants to see change should start with a cold hard look within. People complain about dodgy dealings in Westminster - do you really think that an independent Scotland with all of the main parties remaining with the addition of the equally dodgy SNP will be any different?

 

But still, no doubt, people wont criticise and wont rock the boat. A shameful period in Scotland's history where elected officials are not held to account or questioned.

 

i dont, i see nothing but a scottish face to the same system.

 

 

i've still not seen or heard of anybody from the council getting done for the compulsory work orders handed out for work not needing done and being forced to use companies designated by the council, who had very close ties to councillors.

[TheMaganator]

I would rather have an independent Scotland a member of the EU than a UK controlled Scotland forced to leave it.

 

Shall I presume you think Germany and France are not independent countries?

Not fully, no. Though it could be argued that Germany is the most independent as they dictate to the EU.

 

Any one of our laws can be overturned by Europe. I would have more time for the Yes movement if they were championing leaving the UK and the EU ane joining EFTA. At the moment it just looks like 'anyone but England'.

Not scaremongering? That's all you do

Just trying to ensure we dont march blindly into voting Yes - it ain't scaremongering to ask questions

[reaths17]

The guy said it himself on TV. Was he being worked like a puppet?

 

 

i'm not disagreeing with the guy on TV. as scotland is more left than anything else, to get the votes your gonna go out your way to get them by promising them what they want to hear.

 

the UK is dominated by the middle class so the tories give them what they want to hear as do all the other parties but it's more a traditional voting heartland for the tories, hence they win.

 

none of them follow through with what they promise so it's a no lose for political parties, they tell us any old p*** to get a vote

 

were the ones being worked like puppets.

Edited November 5, 2013 by reaths17

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

 

Erm...might need to Czech your history there Geoff.

 

http://www.infoplease.com/encyclopedia/history/czechoslovakia-history.html

 

 

Successor state so it appears...sounds a bit like?

A patchwork of Central European territories, yes. Provinces even.

 

A bit like, er, Quebec in fact!

[jambos are go!]

Not scaremongering? That's all you do

 

I would remind you that the prominent Nationalist Jim Sillar has said that the YES campaign needs to stop just saying that any criticism of them is just scaremongering without presenting reasoned arguement. Just empty rhetoric.

[Pans Jambo]

 

 

Not fully, no. Though it could be argued that Germany is the most independent as they dictate to the EU.

 

Any one of our laws can be overturned by Europe. I would have more time for the Yes movement if they were championing leaving the UK and the EU ane joining EFTA. At the moment it just looks like 'anyone but England'.

 

If we stay part of the UK then we may have no choice but to leave the EU after Cameron promised a referendum on the matter. England voters will ultimately decide if we remain part of the EU or not and as usual, our wee vote won't make much of a difference.

 

I don't think (no, I know)the Yes campaign is not about 'anyone but England' any more than it's anyone but wales or Northern Ireland.

Really not that difficult, the yes campaign is about Scottish independence NOT being anti English.

 

And really??? France and Germany are NOT sovereign independent states? That's a hard one to sell.

Just trying to ensure we dont march blindly into voting Yes - it ain't scaremongering to ask questions

Agreed, and this is what these debates/discussions are all about. Still not been convinced to say No though!!!

 

[Boris]

Not fully, no. Though it could be argued that Germany is the most independent as they dictate to the EU.

 

Any one of our laws can be overturned by Europe. I would have more time for the Yes movement if they were championing leaving the UK and the EU ane joining EFTA. At the moment it just looks like 'anyone but England'.

 

 

EFTA countries still have to pass certain EU legislation if they wish to trade with the EU. Being in the EU may mean you can debate the issue. Being out obviously you can't.

[TheMaganator]

Agreed, and this is what these debates/discussions are all about. Still not been convinced to say No though!!!

 

I am not sure what you are saying here as the quote function didnt work properly - but on the Germany, France and UK not being sovereign states:

 

Every Member of the EU can have its laws overturned by Europe. That doesn't sound very soverign to me.

 

In Scotland - when you exhaust the appeal procedure here - you appeal to the Supreme Court in the UK (that has Scottish judges on the panel). The function of the Supreme Court used to be performed by the House of Lords. So, at worst, in the Supreme Court, you will have a decision that is heavily influenced by Scottish judges (the ones from rUK tend to defer to the opinions of the Scottish judges in Scotish cases).

 

Dont like that result? You appeal to Europe who have the power to overturn the Scottish & Supreme Court rulings.

 

Though the courts in other countires will have different names the procedure is the same.

 

Dont like being 'dictated' to by Westminster, or merely being an 'afterthought'? Why on earth are you (not you personally) content with the EU?

[TheMaganator]

EFTA countries still have to pass certain EU legislation if they wish to trade with the EU. Being in the EU may mean you can debate the issue. Being out obviously you can't.

& you get a larger voice in the EU and opt outs as being part of the UK. We likely wont have either as an independent country.

 

I am not saying EFTA is perfect - but I dont know why it is not being discussed.

[Boris]

& you get a larger voice in the EU and opt outs as being part of the UK. We likely wont have either as an independent country.

 

I am not saying EFTA is perfect - but I dont know why it is not being discussed.

 

Don't disagree with that at all.

 

I suppose, if independence happens, then a whole raft of things will be up for grabs.

 

My personal bug bear at the moment is the lack of clarity around how an independent Scotland would be governed. I think we need a bicameral system, bill of rights, written constitution etc.

[Das Root]

 

 

 

i'm not disagreeing with the guy on TV. as scotland is more left than anything else, to get the votes your gonna go out your way to get them by promising them what they want to hear.

 

the UK is dominated by the middle class so the tories give them what they want to hear as do all the other parties but it's more a traditional voting heartland for the tories, hence they win.

 

none of them follow through with what they promise so it's a no lose for political parties, they tell us any old p*** to get a vote

 

were the ones being worked like puppets.

 

 

If a stalwart of the Labour party is saying they are no longer the leftist of parties in comparison to the other mainstream parties you know they are going a bit Tory