Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[jack D and coke]

So let me get this right. You fear Scotland would be "lumbered with a labour government forever more" despite the fact we are currently under majority rule of the SNP. The only majority since the devolution. The exact majority the system was deliberately weighted against? Can't see the logic in that in all honesty.

 

I believe that Labour has become the comfortable party to run the United Kingdom amongst Scots. I don't however believe that they hold anywhere near the same weight as that in our own elections hence SNP currently being in majority rule.

 

I've always been in the no camp on this subject and have generally kept well clear of this thread to avoid the headbangers on both sides but I am now coming to more of a middle ground on the issue due in the main to the current UK government. My views have became less can we go it alone to more why can't we?

 

I've come to thinking more of the positives as well as the negatives.

 

Could someone tell me what Scotland is gaining right now from being shackled to England? A lot of the unionist myths on Scottish economy are being debunked in this saga.

My opinion for what it's worth is that post independence (I don't think it'll happen btw) the SNP will more than likely be in immediate power but they are a broad church and are likely to splinter into different parties. They SNP will have achieved what they set out to do and once Salmond goes there doesn't seem to be anyone with any charisma behind him to take up the reins so I feel they will either change completely or fall out the picture and you'll have your more familiar Tory/Labour head to heads and we all know how Scotland votes when they are concerned. Obviously you can't tar everybody with the same brush but labour voters tend to be the least informed of all IMO. The "ma da wis a miner" or similar reasons tend to be more prevalent. Even before Thatcher took over and Britain was on its knees Scotland was still voting labour into power. It's a disease up here.

[JamboX2]

 

You think ma da wis a miner is a good reason to vote labour? My old man was a Tory but I've never been tempted to vote for them but as I've said I've no problem who anybody votes for if you have half a brain and have thought out reasons for so doing so. The labour voters interviewed the other night were symptomatic of most I've ever encountered. People who think they have to hate the Tories or that labour somehow represent them and Scotland and vote for them without the first idea what they're standing for they just do my head in. Old labour perhaps you knew what to expect but this lot like to be one thing here and another thing there. At least with the Tories you know what your getting.

 

I think people are entitled to vote however they want based on whatever reason they want. People make decisions like that due to a poor education. I vote Labour, why? Because I believe their track record at Holyrood and Westminster has been admirable.

 

Half the stuff Salmond claims was brought in by Labour. Another reason is the fact that growing up my grandads told me about Edinburgh's "Angry Young Men", Attlee, Bevan, Tom Johnson, Wheatly and Maxton and Foot. Great Labour men and stories. Yes many there were of the hard left and were decades ago, but that history is a proud one and is the core of the party. Blair - like or loathe (I'm a halfwayer) - done a lot of good prior to the middle of his second term and Brown seemed to be a PM out of time but arrested the final stage of Blairism.

 

In Scotland, Dewar, McLeish and McConnel done good work and were good reforming FMs. I fear under the SNP reform Scotland needs - more localism, further land reform, better local taxation - are being undermined in an attempt to rock the boat. Hence I dont see them as the ones to build but more manage.

 

I think also in Scotland that the party has been on the retreat far too long. Limping along. Hopefully the by-election has given them a spring in their step. The leaflets the SNP were howling about were exactly what they needed to show it is they who helped or did bring about a lot of the stuff Salmond is basing gis government around.

 

If they done that people who bemoan its "zombie-like" core vote - which the SNP have - might realise that these folk do have other reasons for it than class, family and community. Labour needs to give them that though. A thing I think they are struggling to do and a thing which if they get right come Yes/No will see a move back to SNP minority governance in 2016.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

When to comes to voting, people can vote how they like but you would hope at least they would realse it isn't like supporting a football team.

 

For the record, I have voted SDLP, Tory, Lib Dem, SNP and for the Sex Party out here. Each time I had different reasons.

[JamboX2]

 

Even before Thatcher took over and Britain was on its knees Scotland was still voting labour into power. It's a disease up here.

 

They did and do because Scotland was a working class land of heavy industry. Labour as the Union party.won their support. In turn failing industries got millions spent on them to protect coal, car, shipbuilding and many other jobs. People voted to keep that up.

 

Also because Labour;

 

- enactioned the New Towns projects

- cleared slums and built new homes for people

- protected workers rights

- brought in comprehensive education to give all a chance

- increased school leaving ages

- fought to bring in wage equality for women

- the Open University to give ALL working fokk a chance at attaining a degree

- tried to prevebt living costs escalate; and,

- spoke to peoples real concerns at a local level

 

A lot of that there was a mix of local and national work, but when local govt was stronger and Labour ran it folk really saw changes being made - new homes, good public transport, community facilities etc. That localism was once the core of it. It must be again to rebuild.

 

If you view it a disease, fair enough. Bit strong for me. But folk have long memories thanks to communities. And a lot still remember what some did on the behalf of others.

 

Edit; Off topic mods but I felt a need to respond. If its deleted I understand, but I feel this anti-Labour view from some is apart of the Yes/No debate and should also be part of discussion.

Edited October 26, 2013 by JamboX2

[jack D and coke]

 

I think people are entitled to vote however they want based on whatever reason they want. People make decisions like that due to a poor education. I vote Labour, why? Because I believe their track record at Holyrood and Westminster has been admirable.

 

Half the stuff Salmond claims was brought in by Labour. Another reason is the fact that growing up my grandads told me about Edinburgh's "Angry Young Men", Attlee, Bevan, Tom Johnson, Wheatly and Maxton and Foot. Great Labour men and stories. Yes many there were of the hard left and were decades ago, but that history is a proud one and is the core of the party. Blair - like or loathe (I'm a halfwayer) - done a lot of good prior to the middle of his second term and Brown seemed to be a PM out of time but arrested the final stage of Blairism.

 

In Scotland, Dewar, McLeish and McConnel done good work and were good reforming FMs. I fear under the SNP reform Scotland needs - more localism, further land reform, better local taxation - are being undermined in an attempt to rock the boat. Hence I dont see them as the ones to build but more manage.

 

I think also in Scotland that the party has been on the retreat far too long. Limping along. Hopefully the by-election has given them a spring in their step. The leaflets the SNP were howling about were exactly what they needed to show it is they who helped or did bring about a lot of the stuff Salmond is basing gis government around.

 

If they done that people who bemoan its "zombie-like" core vote - which the SNP have - might realise that these folk do have other reasons for it than class, family and community. Labour needs to give them that though. A thing I think they are struggling to do and a thing which if they get right come Yes/No will see a move back to SNP minority governance in 2016.

Nobody should stick to one party it does nobody any good. I'm sure if I said to you I vote Tory because daddy was a lord it would get your goat also. I really liked Henry McLeish and even now he tends to resonate with me when he talks and I would vote for him but then someone like McConnell I thought was an arse and my vote would go elsewhere. Like I say when the UK was on its knees at the end of the 70's Scotland would've still been voting labour into power it's a chronic problem. I'm not too young to remember the frequent power cuts that the younger guys on here will find unbelievable yet Scotland would've kept on voting for these clowns that we're running our country into the ground. Labour and the Trade Unions should've really been wiped out and they were in England but up here it's like the walking dead to the polls voting them time after time no matter how big a mess they made of things. Maybe staying in the UK will save us from ourselves.

[JamboX2]

 

Nobody should stick to one party it does nobody any good. I'm sure if I said to you I vote Tory because daddy was a lord it would get your goat also. I really liked Henry McLeish and even now he tends to resonate with me when he talks and I would vote for him but then someone like McConnell I thought was an arse and my vote would go elsewhere. Like I say when the UK was on its knees at the end of the 70's Scotland would've still been voting labour into power it's a chronic problem. I'm not too young to remember the frequent power cuts that the younger guys on here will find unbelievable yet Scotland would've kept on voting for these clowns that we're running our country into the ground. Labour and the Trade Unions should've really been wiped out and they were in England but up here it's like the walking dead to the polls voting them time after time no matter how big a mess they made of things. Maybe staying in the UK will save us from ourselves.

 

Was it not Ted Heath who presided over the 3 day week and power cuts? I never lived that but that wasnt Labour's fault.

 

I would say to change that type of politics you need to really engage with people. I'd say the SNP came undone in Dunfermline on arguing "look at we've done for you", not "we need a strong local voice here". I'd maybe, tentatively add, that to the poorer voters, that free tuition and tax freezes wont mean much when wages are cut, bill rises and services many rely on are being cut. That will have resonance with more affluent and upper middle class areas where a tax freeze will be seen to have a tangible impact or your children more likely to attain a university education. In that sense I'd say the SNP failed to make that connection and lost.

 

Based on my reading of the by-election I'd have voted Green. That Zara Kitson will or should be an MSP, she spoke well, had conviction of belief and was fresh in compariaon to the aloofness of Labour and the SNP. A sin she came behind UKIP.

[jambos are go!]

Nobody should stick to one party it does nobody any good. I'm sure if I said to you I vote Tory because daddy was a lord it would get your goat also. I really liked Henry McLeish and even now he tends to resonate with me when he talks and I would vote for him but then someone like McConnell I thought was an arse and my vote would go elsewhere. Like I say when the UK was on its knees at the end of the 70's Scotland would've still been voting labour into power it's a chronic problem. I'm not too young to remember the frequent power cuts that the younger guys on here will find unbelievable yet Scotland would've kept on voting for these clowns that we're running our country into the ground. Labour and the Trade Unions should've really been wiped out and they were in England but up here it's like the walking dead to the polls voting them time after time no matter how big a mess they made of things. Maybe staying in the UK will save us from ourselves.

 

The power cuts of the 1970s were under Ted Heaths Tory Party who were thrown out of office and a Labour Government elected to sort it out. Which they did. I would also remind you that Alex Salmond in his first speech as First Minister praised Jack McConnell as having made Scotland a better place during his leadership. McConnell was the only leading politician I can recall that at least tried to confront the Sectarianism that defaces Scottish Society. Attacking voters who don't support your cause as deficient is a sign of a closed mind IMO. Scotland is an inherently Unionist country and the polls tell you there is no arguement about that. Smell the coffee.

 

And the polls tell you that the aspiring young are much more dismissive of separatism than any age group. Given recent events how you get away with virtually calling Labour voters morons and mature voters the 'walking dead' is beyond me.

Edited October 26, 2013 by jambos are go!

[jack D and coke]

 

Was it not Ted Heath who presided over the 3 day week and power cuts? I never lived that but that wasnt Labour's fault.

 

I would say to change that type of politics you need to really engage with people. I'd say the SNP came undone in Dunfermline on arguing "look at we've done for you", not "we need a strong local voice here". I'd maybe, tentatively add, that to the poorer voters, that free tuition and tax freezes wont mean much when wages are cut, bill rises and services many rely on are being cut. That will have resonance with more affluent and upper middle class areas where a tax freeze will be seen to have a tangible impact or your children more likely to attain a university education. In that sense I'd say the SNP failed to make that connection and lost.

 

Based on my reading of the by-election I'd have voted Green. That Zara Kitson will or should be an MSP, she spoke well, had conviction of belief and was fresh in compariaon to the aloofness of Labour and the SNP. A sin she came behind UKIP.

If it was Heath then I apologise but I was sure it was Wilson and Callahan who presided over the country hitting its knees. I can't remember much but I know the lights went out quite a bit and then the miners carry on. I had family who were miners and they said some of the things that went on were ridiculous the unions had the country by the balls and unlike Scotland the rest of the UK saved us all by voting these idiots out and getting the country back onto its feet. Again the Tories got too long in government and took things too far in the opposite direction. Tony Blair was the best PM we've had in my lifetime but he lost it too and then that arse Brown was frankly way out of his depth and still makes me cringe everytime he opens his mouth. Cameron and Clegg are a pair of balloons but can you say you'd rather have Milliband? I just look at him and know he will never be PM. Salmond and the SNP have a golden opportunity to win people over the opposition is so embarrassingly weak yet they can't seem to turn the tide in their favour for whatever reason. I think of an independent Scotland and it does turn me on but then I think of all the idiots in this country who can't think for themselves and it puts me right off. Please don't think I'm including you in any of these assertions JX2 you are clearly switched on but sadly in the small minority.

Edited October 26, 2013 by jack D and coke

[The Comedian]

The power cuts of the 1970s were under Ted Heaths Tory Party who were thrown out of office and a Labour Government elected to sort it out. Which they did. I would also remind you that Alex Salmond in his first speech as First Minister praised Jack McConnell as having made Scotland a better place during his leadership. McConnell was the only leading politician I can recall that at least tried to confront the Sectarianism that defaces Scottish Society. Attacking voters who don't support your cause as deficient is a sign of a closed mind IMO. Scotland is an inherently Unionist country and the polls tell you there is no arguement about that. Smell the coffee.

 

And the polls tell you that the aspiring young are much more dismissive of separatism than any age group. Given recent events how you get away with virtually calling Labour voters morons and mature voters the 'walking dead' is beyond me.

 

You seem to have got away with inferring YES supporters are sexist though.

[jambos are go!]

You seem to have got away with inferring YES supporters are sexist though.

 

I used a quote on here as evidence and did offered the opinion that it damaged the YES campaign as further evidenced by female voting intentions as shown in polls. Not opinion.

 

I don't believe for one minute that YES voters are sexist. I just commented on a particular post.

[Patrick Bateman]

Some interesting poll figures out today, courtesy of Panelbase and Wings Over Scotland, suggesting Yes Scotland need a 4% swing.

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-gnats-chuff/

 

The statistics about 18-24 are particularly strange, but I suppose they haven't experienced Tory governments with no mandate here for any prolonged periods. I suppose young people tend to be less engaged with politics too, so hopefully Yes Scotland can get the message out to them.

[smallfaces]

Some interesting poll figures out today, courtesy of Panelbase and Wings Over Scotland, suggesting Yes Scotland need a 4% swing.

Poo

http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-gnats-chuff/

 

The statistics about 18-24 are particularly strange, but I suppose they haven't experienced Tory governments with no mandate here for any prolonged periods. I suppose young people tend to be less engaged with politics too, so hopefully Yes Scotland can get the message out to them.

 

Aren't you concerned that the Yes vote remains fairly static? Having the support of just over 1/3.

The pretty ineffectual No campaign doesn't seem to be having any affect on their level of support.

Whether the large undecided % can be persuaded over to Yes votes or will simply not bother to vote could work out to a handsome Yes advantage.

[JamboX2]

If it was Heath then I apologise but I was sure it was Wilson and Callahan who presided over the country hitting its knees. I can't remember much but I know the lights went out quite a bit and then the miners carry on. I had family who were miners and they said some of the things that went on were ridiculous the unions had the country by the balls and unlike Scotland the rest of the UK saved us all by voting these idiots out and getting the country back onto its feet. Again the Tories got too long in government and took things too far in the opposite direction. Tony Blair was the best PM we've had in my lifetime but he lost it too and then that arse Brown was frankly way out of his depth and still makes me cringe everytime he opens his mouth. Cameron and Clegg are a pair of balloons but can you say you'd rather have Milliband? I just look at him and know he will never be PM. Salmond and the SNP have a golden opportunity to win people over the opposition is so embarrassingly weak yet they can't seem to turn the tide in their favour for whatever reason. I think of an independent Scotland and it does turn me on but then I think of all the idiots in this country who can't think for themselves and it puts me right off. Please don't think I'm including you in any of these assertions JX2 you are clearly switched on but sadly in the small minority.

 

The Unions shot themsleves in the foot by not accepting Labour's "In Place of Strife" and through their actions after that - not accepting secret ballots for strikes, transparency in how they worked and arbitration procedures - led to Thatcher.

 

Happens in all countrys mate. Scotland would most likely be run by the SNP for a few terms post 2016 though.

[Alba gu Brath]

Was it not Ted Heath who presided over the 3 day week and power cuts? I never lived that but that wasnt Labour's fault.

 

I would say to change that type of politics you need to really engage with people. I'd say the SNP came undone in Dunfermline on arguing "look at we've done for you", not "we need a strong local voice here". I'd maybe, tentatively add, that to the poorer voters, that free tuition and tax freezes wont mean much when wages are cut, bill rises and services many rely on are being cut. That will have resonance with more affluent and upper middle class areas where a tax freeze will be seen to have a tangible impact or your children more likely to attain a university education. In that sense I'd say the SNP failed to make that connection and lost.

 

 

Actually it seemed like Labour was saying that - judging by yon leaflet they sent out which either supported what the SNP had done or claimed credit for it. Much of it ironically - the 'tough left wing' stance - seemed to fly in the face of what Labour are saying nationally - i.e. we're all scroungers.

 

Still don't agree about the tax freeze. My family aint that rich and most folk I know fall into roughly the same wage bracket be they nurses, teachers or train drivers. All have had their pay frozen for the past 2 or 3 years. Paying ?000s more in cooncil tax would make our lives worse. The council tax freeze has made things better for ordinary working folk.

[Alba gu Brath]

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/barrel-meet-fish/

[Das Root]

 

http://wingsoverscotland.com/barrel-meet-fish/

 

 

 

Fair play to Labour, they won. May have been by lying and cheating but nobody remembers second place.

 

Hope to hell the gloves come off on the Yes campaign 2014, I'm all for waging a dirty war, proper guerilla marketing tactics and ripping the opposition apart. Cannot wait!

[JamboX2]

 

http://wingsoverscot...rrel-meet-fish/

 

I agree to an extent. Some of those were intorduced by Labour led administrations. The party is also committed to these policies, however it is looking at ways in which to improve them or reform them. In relation to the bus pass there is moves afoot to re-regulate bus routes to ensure services are actually there and to raise the age of attaining a pass in line with the rising pesion age and life expectancy rising as well. FPC is under strain and needs more resources to make it more than a 15minute check - from personal experience of this policy it is one which is great in principle but is currently failing to live up to its expectations and meet a high standard. I've always said Scottish Labour fail to make a point in policy and fail to explain things well. They have let the SNP paint them as something they aren't.

 

Actually it seemed like Labour was saying that - judging by yon leaflet they sent out which either supported what the SNP had done or claimed credit for it. Much of it ironically - the 'tough left wing' stance - seemed to fly in the face of what Labour are saying nationally - i.e. we're all scroungers.

 

Still don't agree about the tax freeze. My family aint that rich and most folk I know fall into roughly the same wage bracket be they nurses, teachers or train drivers. All have had their pay frozen for the past 2 or 3 years. Paying ?000s more in cooncil tax would make our lives worse. The council tax freeze has made things better for ordinary working folk.

 

Labour aren't saying that. In fact todays articles by Arthur Midwinter and the Scotland on Sunday give an excellent assessment of what his commission for Labour is about. Were the SNP slammed for accepting the findings of the Campbell Christie Commission which called for similar moves to Midwinter and Labour's position of assessing funding more on need. I quite like how Wings over Scotland's article seemed to suggest an opposition party shouldn't bother contesting a seat if the Government retains a majority because "she'll have little influence". In fact that article goes onto say she should stay being a councillor to make a difference, but they slammed her for accepting and voting for a report which has since said that two schools with low attendances should be closed. Cannae have it both ways. Was almost saying "vote Shirley, because at least she's a government MSP and would have a wee bit more power as a backbench government MSP...", whilst conveniently ignoring the fact that she'd have been a part-timer as she intended to keep going as Community Organiser of Yes Scotland.

 

The SNP have painted Labour as the "cuts" party. Todays Scotland on Sunday has a couple of articles refuting this by the man advising them on Party policy. Much like the SNP used a bad joke about someone in Better Together saying they were "project fear" - the full quote being along the lines of "oh yet again they're saying we're some sort of Project Fear" - they've used one, admittedly awfully phrased, line of a speech which as a whole was no different from what Swinney said about public spending after the Christie Commission reported back. It was meant to offer Labour support to make hard choices to maintain policies and yet they used it to widen the gulf.

 

It's about priorities within these policies. Why should the Regeneration Fund, EMA, the Supporting People Fund, the housing budgets and the Fairer Scotland fund be cut to cover the costs of a council tax freeze which proportionally benefits the more affluent voter. It's not right to me. Prioritising these measures is compounding the cuts and austerity of Westminste. One thing the Midwinter analysis article says is "my remit is to examine ways of reducing costs...to prioritise spending which will tackle poverty and unemployment. From my work so far, there is clearly scope for savings within universal benefits I have examined without - as the SNP claims - scrapping them". Some of the things he is talking about is removing cheap and easily accessible drugs like paracetemol from the prescribed drugs the NHS give out for free - according to him the NHS gives this out more than more important drugs and the costs are rising meaning cuts to other drugs which are important.

 

On the Council Tax freeze, as the union Unison pointed out earlier this year (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-22373880) that it benefits the wealthy more at the expense of services which poorer folk rely on and also has seen cuts made to anti-poverty measures like the regeneration fund and EMA. In the Scotland on Sunday today it was pointed out that the annual saving for a Band A household is only ?60. The saving for a Band H is ?370. That's a benefit for the wealthy at the expense of anti-poverty measures and local facilities. ?1bn of anti-poverty measures have been cut or "lost" whilst at the same time the autonomy of local government has been undermind by centrally set budgets by Swinney and his Finance Department. It's unsustainable. Lets go one better than freezes or capping it, lets do away with it and bring in Land Value Taxation which has a social and economic benefits and must be locally controlled to make full effect of it. Councils have made on average ?70m in cuts annually to pay for this freeze.

 

In terms of the poor and costs here, many already received support for council tax, prescriptions and education prior to these changes. In some ways this has been a good policy, but right now it's robbing Peter to pay Paul in many policies and gives more money back to the well off than the worse off. Not a bastion of fairness.

 

Some reading on this;

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/billion-pounds-cash-to-fight-poverty-disappears-1-3159791

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/leaders-counting-cost-of-government-giveaways-1-3160361 - editorial

 

However we view it, Riddoch is right and radical action at all levels is needed, both Labour and the SNP need to think bigger than they are;

http://www.scotsman.com/news/lesley-riddoch-poor-excuse-for-a-poverty-plan-1-3160597

 

What I will say is Scottish Labour is crap at explaining this. Hence the Midwinter article. Well explained, no threats to universal benefits but reforms to help target poverty prevention more than a tax rebate for the well off. The SNP like to paint their opponents in an inaccurate light which betrays the points they make - ie Liberal opposition to a centralised Scottish Police Force lead to the SNP saying if they didn't do this police numbers would have to be cut, in hindsight the Lib-Dems were right and centralisation has been used to cut backroom support staff and shut police stations. The SNP bang on about positive campaigning but I feel they are still the masters of the negative campaign at times.

[Pans Jambo]

As far as the council tax freeze goes, it has benefitted millions of households and continues to do so. It may benefit the wealthy but does it not also benefit those in society where ?10 a month is a big deal?

It has undoubtedly helped me and mine.

It seems that Joanne Lamont wants to "take a fresh look at this" (aye, we know what that means).

Says it all really, just keep working folk screaming at each other and forget about the real issues like corporate greed, poverty, youth unemployment or the lack of decent social housing.

If that's Labour's view then it certainly does not represent the views of the people they were created for, the common working folks.

It seems that all of the policies on the flyer above for Cara Hilton are EXACTLY the ones that the Labour party wants to REVERSE.

And BTW Mrs Lamont, congratulations in really get involved in the Grangemouth thing recently. considering she is/was a UNISON member and it was Unison who backed her to lead the Scottish Labour Party. She was nowhere to be seen last week!

I used to vote labour and I might again after we make the desicion to take care of our own interests next year.

[jack D and coke]

As far as the council tax freeze goes, it has benefitted millions of households and continues to do so. It may benefit the wealthy but does it not also benefit those in society where ?10 a month is a big deal?

It has undoubtedly helped me and mine.

It seems that Joanne Lamont wants to "take a fresh look at this" (aye, we know what that means).

Says it all really, just keep working folk screaming at each other and forget about the real issues like corporate greed, poverty, youth unemployment or the lack of decent social housing.

If that's Labour's view then it certainly does not represent the views of the people they were created for, the common working folks.

It seems that all of the policies on the flyer above for Cara Hilton are EXACTLY the ones that the Labour party wants to REVERSE.

And BTW Mrs Lamont, congratulations in really get involved in the Grangemouth thing recently. considering she is/was a UNISON member and it was Unison who backed her to lead the Scottish Labour Party. She was nowhere to be seen last week!

I used to vote labour and I might again after we make the desicion to take care of our own interests next year.

The thought of that Lamont being in charge of a seperate Scotland is almost enough to make me vote no on its own. I've voted them in the past but honestly never again. I've no doubt they used to stand for things for not anymore. I despise them and Scotland would be more than likely stuck with them and their brain dead voters. No thanks.

[Boris]

As far as the council tax freeze goes, it has benefitted millions of households and continues to do so. It may benefit the wealthy but does it not also benefit those in society where ?10 a month is a big deal?

It has undoubtedly helped me and mine.

It seems that Joanne Lamont wants to "take a fresh look at this" (aye, we know what that means).

Says it all really, just keep working folk screaming at each other and forget about the real issues like corporate greed, poverty, youth unemployment or the lack of decent social housing.

If that's Labour's view then it certainly does not represent the views of the people they were created for, the common working folks.

It seems that all of the policies on the flyer above for Cara Hilton are EXACTLY the ones that the Labour party wants to REVERSE.

And BTW Mrs Lamont, congratulations in really get involved in the Grangemouth thing recently. considering she is/was a UNISON member and it was Unison who backed her to lead the Scottish Labour Party. She was nowhere to be seen last week!

I used to vote labour and I might again after we make the desicion to take care of our own interests next year.

 

Far be it from me to defend Lamont, but what did Unison have to do with the Grangemouth dispute?

[Pans Jambo]

Far be it from me to defend Lamont, but what did Unison have to do with the Grangemouth dispute?

 

Aye fair point. Meant to say UNITE there.

 

Monday mornings eh.

 

But the point still stands

[Boris]

Aye fair point. Meant to say UNITE there.

 

Monday mornings eh.

 

But the point still stands

 

Agree, never saw or heard much from her on this subject at all!

 

I don't like her politics, I don't like what New Labour is and agree with your post about where the Labour party is now.

 

And apologies, wasn't trying to be petty or nit picky - I think we come from the same set of values!

[Patrick Bateman]

There is absolutely no way Lamont will ever be FM of Scotland. Anyway, getting back on topic... Wings Over Scotland's has released more stuff from its polling. Hopefully it will help Yes Scotland to craft their approach from hereon in - http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-in-betweeners/

 

It seems like the threat of abolishing the Barnett formula could convince people. Why should our funding be on a 'needs' basis, when we already contribute more to the treasury than we get back? That's hardly an attractive thing to sell.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

There is absolutely no way Lamont will ever be FM of Scotland. Anyway, getting back on topic... Wings Over Scotland's has released more stuff from its polling. Hopefully it will help Yes Scotland to craft their approach from hereon in - http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-in-betweeners/

 

It seems like the threat of abolishing the Barnett formula could convince people. Why should our funding be on a 'needs' basis, when we already contribute more to the treasury than we get back? That's hardly an attractive thing to sell.

So, to clarify, you disagree with the Barnett formula but the people polled support it?

 

[Patrick Bateman]

So, to clarify, you disagree with the Barnett formula but the people polled support it?

 

No, I think Scotland should be able to spend every penny that is raised here, rather than paying into Westminster's treasury and for them to allocate spending according to our population size. That's because it's totally unfair off the bat, and secondly, Scotland's size means that services will cost more to provide. There has been chat to remove this. As the polls suggest, if people know this is going to happen and the ratio of taxation to London and the block 'grant' becomes even more skewed, voters are more likely to vote for independence.

[JamboX2]

As far as the council tax freeze goes, it has benefitted millions of households and continues to do so. It may benefit the wealthy but does it not also benefit those in society where ?10 a month is a big deal?

 

When a Band A house gets ?60 per year from the Freeze and a Band H ?370 on average, that works out per month at around ?5 for the Band A and ?31 for the Band H. Is that fair? I don't know. Is a fiver a month and services and facilities cut as a result by local government worth that ?5 per month for the worst off? After all the rely more on the services. To put it another way, if we want top notch services and Scandinavian style welfare provision, then we have to pay more for it. I for one would be willing to pay for it.

 

It has undoubtedly helped me and mine.

It seems that Joanne Lamont wants to "take a fresh look at this" (aye, we know what that means).

Says it all really, just keep working folk screaming at each other and forget about the real issues like corporate greed, poverty, youth unemployment or the lack of decent social housing.

If that's Labour's view then it certainly does not represent the views of the people they were created for, the common working folks.

It seems that all of the policies on the flyer above for Cara Hilton are EXACTLY the ones that the Labour party wants to REVERSE.

And BTW Mrs Lamont, congratulations in really get involved in the Grangemouth thing recently. considering she is/was a UNISON member and it was Unison who backed her to lead the Scottish Labour Party. She was nowhere to be seen last week!

I used to vote labour and I might again after we make the desicion to take care of our own interests next year.

 

Thing is Labour and the Unions are not proposing to hit working folk hard here. Those who can pay more should be paying more to protect the services on which more working and poorer people rely on instead of a tax freeze which has been shown to be more beneficial to the well off. FWIW, I don't think Labour will win in 2016. They might eat into the SNP majority but no more than that. So what it proposes may never come to fruition. However, there is a good point they are making, do we value a tax freeze which benefits the well off more by proportion of disposable income per month and year (the ?60 for the poorest households per year in comparison to the ?370 for the wealthiest) whilst services designed to attack youth unemployment, build and repair decent social housing and attack poverty are cut to pay for it. I again refer to the articles I linked above in post #4614 which show cuts equalling ?1bn on things like regeneration, community building funds, youth unemployment schemes and the anti-poverty funding to help pay for the Council Tax Freeze. Which due to inflation is robbing services for more funding to keep it goin with a tax intake of that in 2007. To me that's not the right priority. It's an eyecatching policy, however it's unreversable because folk wont stand for it. Hence the need to do away with Council Tax and bring in something much more progressive.

[JamboX2]

The thought of that Lamont being in charge of a seperate Scotland is almost enough to make me vote no on its own. I've voted them in the past but honestly never again. I've no doubt they used to stand for things for not anymore. I despise them and Scotland would be more than likely stuck with them and their brain dead voters. No thanks.

 

Lamont wont become FM or Scotland's first female Prime Minister. If the Better Together campaign loose in 2014, she'll have no choice to resign as Labour leader, be that through self interest or internal pressures to replace her with another man. Hence Mrs Lamont wont be Scotland's First Minister in 2016, not by a fluke beat Salmond to become the nations innagural independent Prime Minister.

[Pans Jambo]

Not disagreeing with what you are saying jX2 but I think that even ?60 a year for some is still a reduction that they would find difficult to pay if it was reversed (unemployed, disabled, retired etc).

I dont have the figures for the bands but I know I pay over ?1200 a year for my gaff whereas someone in a small flat probably only pays half of that. You are highlighting what the SAVING is and not what the actual PAYMENT is (eg I pay around ?120/month whereas someone in a small flat with housing benefit probably only pays ?30 or ?40 a month).

 

As I said, I am not in full disagreement with your points. Personally, I would scrap National Insurance and Council tax and just collect the lot through PAYE based on your earnings alone (earn more/pay more - done) however; I would not trust any of the Westminster based parties to start any reforms because as history tells us, we will just end up paying even more and the poverty gap would inevitably increase.

[JamboX2]

Not disagreeing with what you are saying jX2 but I think that even ?60 a year for some is still a reduction that they would find difficult to pay if it was reversed (unemployed, disabled, retired etc).

I dont have the figures for the bands but I know I pay over ?1200 a year for my gaff whereas someone in a small flat probably only pays half of that. You are highlighting what the SAVING is and not what the actual PAYMENT is (eg I pay around ?120/month whereas someone in a small flat with housing benefit probably only pays ?30 or ?40 a month).

 

As I said, I am not in full disagreement with your points. Personally, I would scrap National Insurance and Council tax and just collect the lot through PAYE based on your earnings alone (earn more/pay more - done) however; I would not trust any of the Westminster based parties to start any reforms because as history tells us, we will just end up paying even more and the poverty gap would inevitably increase.

 

Whilst hard to disagree with you on that, well the first point anyway, I think it's the only way to look at it in terms of savings, because that is what it's purpose is for. Then again I'd get rid of Council Tax and replace it with Land Value Tax. The issue I feel the SNP is neglecting here through the freeze is that on the one hand they are essentially running local government as a central government agency, which is an abuse of local democracy, whilst at the same time cutting anti-poverty funds to maintain a regressive fiscal policy in the council tax freeze. Strikes me as cheap electoral gimmicks more than anything.

 

However, either way we will see a Salmond or Sturgeon lead administration in 2016 either side of the vote. The SNP have taken the mantra as the natural party of government for many, poor and wealthy since 2007. It's uninspired governance but that's a personal opinion.

[TheMaganator]

Not disagreeing with what you are saying jX2 but I think that even ?60 a year for some is still a reduction that they would find difficult to pay if it was reversed (unemployed, disabled, retired etc).

I dont have the figures for the bands but I know I pay over ?1200 a year for my gaff whereas someone in a small flat probably only pays half of that. You are highlighting what the SAVING is and not what the actual PAYMENT is (eg I pay around ?120/month whereas someone in a small flat with housing benefit probably only pays ?30 or ?40 a month).

 

As I said, I am not in full disagreement with your points. Personally, I would scrap National Insurance and Council tax and just collect the lot through PAYE based on your earnings alone (earn more/pay more - done) however; I would not trust any of the Westminster based parties to start any reforms because as history tells us, we will just end up paying even more and the poverty gap would inevitably increase.

 

 

What party do you expect to start those sorts of reforms in an independent Scotland? We will still have the lab/lib/con/snp&green if we are independent.

 

People criticise the UK a lot now, and seem to be pinning a lot of hope on an independent Scotland to do things that we haven't seen here before. Where are these radical ideas coming from? It is not like we have sways of politicians propsing radical changes that being in the UK is preventing us from enabling.

[The Baldmans Comb]

You're voting to give your country the chance to rule, lead, govern, protect and serve itself. To be a proper country. A country to be proud of. A country that will give it's future citizens a chance to flourish.

 

This and more.

 

Countries work best of all when they govern themselves rather than get other people to do it for them and I am financially convinced Scotland would have no problems at all.

Edited October 28, 2013 by The Baldmans Comb

[JamboX2]

What party do you expect to start those sorts of reforms in an independent Scotland? We will still have the lab/lib/con/snp&green if we are independent.

 

People criticise the UK a lot now, and seem to be pinning a lot of hope on an independent Scotland to do things that we haven't seen here before. Where are these radical ideas coming from? It is not like we have sways of politicians propsing radical changes that being in the UK is preventing us from enabling.

 

there is a naieve assumption that the politics of Scotland will radically change come a Yes vote. Now the scope to be different from what has gone before is there come a Yes Vote, however the parties will be the same and the politicians the same aswell.

[The Real Maroonblood]

 

 

 

 

What party do you expect to start those sorts of reforms in an independent Scotland? We will still have the lab/lib/con/snp&green if we are independent.

 

People criticise the UK a lot now, and seem to be pinning a lot of hope on an independent Scotland to do things that we haven't seen here before. Where are these radical ideas coming from? It is not like we have sways of politicians propsing radical changes that being in the UK is preventing us from enabling.

Your first paragraph is so relevant as there is a lot of people who actually think voting for an independent Scotland is voting for the SNP.

[Pans Jambo]

 

 

 

 

What party do you expect to start those sorts of reforms in an independent Scotland? We will still have the lab/lib/con/snp&green if we are independent.

 

People criticise the UK a lot now, and seem to be pinning a lot of hope on an independent Scotland to do things that we haven't seen here before. Where are these radical ideas coming from? It is not like we have sways of politicians propsing radical changes that being in the UK is preventing us from enabling.

Any/all of them & perhaps some new ones. Has been mentioned above that perhaps parties like the Labour Party would (in a independent Scotland) look very different and perhaps lean further to the left. Whoever it is, it will be us, the people of scotland for the people of Scotland. Now to be clear, that might not be then SNP.

[JamboX2]

Any/all of them & perhaps some new ones. Has been mentioned above that perhaps parties like the Labour Party would (in a independent Scotland) look very different and perhaps lean further to the left. Whoever it is, it will be us, the people of scotland for the people of Scotland. Now to be clear, that might not be then SNP.

 

It'll be an SNP government if Yes wins. Labour will be Labour plus Dougie Alexander, Jim Murphy, Anne Begg and others. It'll be lead by those in senior positions of power now. The Greens will be the Greens, the Tories the Tories. The only one which stands a good chance of gaining some heavier hitters to be a bit more than they are are the Scottish LibDems.

[Pans Jambo]

 

 

 

It'll be an SNP government if Yes wins. Labour will be Labour plus Dougie Alexander, Jim Murphy, Anne Begg and others. It'll be lead by those in senior positions of power now. The Greens will be the Greens, the Tories the Tories. The only one which stands a good chance of gaining some heavier hitters to be a bit more than they are are the Scottish LibDems.

I have to disagree with your point about Labour there. I think they would clear out the dead wood & re-invent themselves. I don't think they would stagnate. Why would they or any other party not take the opportunity to refresh themselves?

[JamboX2]

I have to disagree with your point about Labour there. I think they would clear out the dead wood & re-invent themselves. I don't think they would stagnate. Why would they or any other party not take the opportunity to refresh themselves?

 

They may well re-invent themselves, however, not taking advantage of Douglas Alexander and Jim Murphy in the top team would be daft. They may well have a more centre-left stance. I think with their greatest chances post-Yes vote would be to bring back Henry McLeish. Him with the two mentioned supplemented by the likes of Kezia Dugdale, Neil Findlay and Jenny Marra would be a stronger team to take on the SNP. You are right in Holyrood they've got a fair bit of deadwood. I still wouldn't expect some reversion to a 1980s Foot style revisionism, even a return to Kinnock-Smith stuff would likely be easy pickings for the SNP. However the SNP will be the Government of Scotland for the forseeable future. Already plans afoot to change name and plan to the National Party - http://www.scotsman....tland-1-3148951

Edited October 28, 2013 by JamboX2

[jambos are go!]

If the council tax ends the money wont disappear it can be redeployed to help those most in need and the thresholds for the payment of the tax can be raised as part of that. Can I also point out that most home owners are currently saving probably a couple of hundreds of pounds a month because of historically low mortgage rates. I could say similar things about tuition fees where rich kids go from paying ?15k a year at public schools to nothing in Higher education. And the terms for repaying student debt are incredibly generous and can be spread over very long periods. If you don't earn very much you are unlikely to ever have to make a repayment.

 

So what should Holyroods priority be. supporting folk you have to choose eating and heating and policies that most benefit the rich.. I'm with Lamont. In Scotland the UK we spend enough public to eradicate poverty If policies target it directly and are not primarily populist. And we could do it now in Scotland but choose not to.

[Alba gu Brath]

Good piece on what will continue if we vote 'no'. We all know places like this.

 

WHY ONLY A 'YES' VOTE IN THE REFERENDUM OFFERS ANY HOPE TO SCOTLAND'S MOST DESPERATE PEOPLE

 

 

When I first posted this blog a week ago, my main intention was to try and shine a light on the utterly desperate plight so many will face over the coming months in the most deprived corners of Scotland. My focus is on the old coal mining village of Kirkconnel, but I have no doubt the dismal same stories will be played out in all of the crumbling towns and villages that once upon a time hosted the Industrial Revolution. These places are not just about to be affected by Whitehall's vicious Welfare Reforms: they about to be hammered. Thousands of people are about to experience the kind of hardships that we naively thought had been left behind long ago. No heat and no light and no food.

[Alba gu Brath]

And, isn't it great that we Scots can't be trusted to look after immigration policy... apparently voting 'yes' will be 'separatist' and will 'erect borders'....

 

 

Villagers fight to save local hero teacher from being deported

 

An attempt to send a respected headteacher back to the US has raised hackles in Scotland

[Alba gu Brath]

Oh... and Kezia Dugdale...

[Patrick Bateman]

Scotland Tonight should be interesting, they'll feature the Wings Over Scotland / Panelbase poll with a comments from Dennis Canavan and the ever charming Ian Davidson.

[TheMaganator]

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/439584/SNP-s-1bn-bribes-keeping-families-stuck-in-poverty

 

Interesting article on what's been a regular feature here recently.

 

Are the SNP keeping people in poverty?

[JamboX2]

http://www.express.c...tuck-in-poverty

 

Interesting article on what's been a regular feature here recently.

 

Are the SNP keeping people in poverty?

 

Not intentionally. But their policies aren't radical nor innovative enough to change society. Nor are they the right balance. A Tax Freeze which proportionally benefits the well off at the expense of the services the poorest rely on. See my post at 4614 to see what I thought on the Midwinter report.

[JamboX2]

Scotland Tonight should be interesting, they'll feature the Wings Over Scotland / Panelbase poll with a comments from Dennis Canavan and the ever charming Ian Davidson.

 

Good stuff from Scotland Tonight. Lets get the loveable Dennis Canavan on the show but we'll put him up against the angry Ian Davidson.... McLeish, McConnel, Wendy Alexander, Chisolm, Drew Smith, Jenny Marra and others all busy tonight I'm guessing....

[JamboX2]

Good piece on what will continue if we vote 'no'. We all know places like this.

 

WHY ONLY A 'YES' VOTE IN THE REFERENDUM OFFERS ANY HOPE TO SCOTLAND'S MOST DESPERATE PEOPLE

 

 

When I first posted this blog a week ago, my main intention was to try and shine a light on the utterly desperate plight so many will face over the coming months in the most deprived corners of Scotland. My focus is on the old coal mining village of Kirkconnel, but I have no doubt the dismal same stories will be played out in all of the crumbling towns and villages that once upon a time hosted the Industrial Revolution. These places are not just about to be affected by Whitehall's vicious Welfare Reforms: they about to be hammered. Thousands of people are about to experience the kind of hardships that we naively thought had been left behind long ago. No heat and no light and no food.

 

This can only be substantiated with a solid industrial policy to create jobs after a Yes win and with solid commitments on welfare. We all want a better future, I suppose some of us need some greater level of proof and commitment from our leaders before we'll bet the house on it.

 

And, isn't it great that we Scots can't be trusted to look after immigration policy... apparently voting 'yes' will be 'separatist' and will 'erect borders'....

 

 

Villagers fight to save local hero teacher from being deported

 

An attempt to send a respected headteacher back to the US has raised hackles in Scotland

 

It does create a border. A political one between ourselves and the wider UK. That is indisputibly erecting a border of sorts. Borders are porous now so what difference that makes is by the by. Do I think we'd be more liberal on immigration? Who knows to be honest. The story is clearly a heart string tugger but we have no proof that Scottish politicians once they have full control will be any more liberal on immigration. As per the Common Travel Area of the UK and Ireland and within the EU it is a fact that the UK and Ireland have not taken the most liberal of views on immigration.

 

I would hold fire on all this "we will be more liberal and of the left" once Yes wins. Let us not begin a new nation should it come by asserting we are somehow better than our neighbours, each polity makes decisions based on what it feels best serves it people and society.. Should Yes be the outcome let us not bang on about the "beacon to the north", which I find smug, let us merely look to ourselves and build a better country. All this talk of some form of moral superiority in terms of how we'd govern our affairs I dislike.

[Das Root]

 

 

Good stuff from Scotland Tonight. Lets get the loveable Dennis Canavan on the show but we'll put him up against the angry Ian Davidson.... McLeish, McConnel, Wendy Alexander, Chisolm, Drew Smith, Jenny Marra and others all busy tonight I'm guessing....

 

 

Good sensible Labour man is Dennis.

[JamboX2]

 

 

 

Good sensible Labour man is Dennis.

 

Indeed. Till he left the party. A.man of conviction to be admired. Deserves a better opponent than Davidson from a unionist bent.

 

The Newsnicht debate on 2 is good. Mike Russell as bullish as ever. Defending his college cuts.

[Pans Jambo]

 

Good piece on what will continue if we vote 'no'. We all know places like this.

 

WHY ONLY A 'YES' VOTE IN THE REFERENDUM OFFERS ANY HOPE TO SCOTLAND'S MOST DESPERATE PEOPLE

 

 

When I first posted this blog a week ago, my main intention was to try and shine a light on the utterly desperate plight so many will face over the coming months in the most deprived corners of Scotland. My focus is on the old coal mining village of Kirkconnel, but I have no doubt the dismal same stories will be played out in all of the crumbling towns and villages that once upon a time hosted the Industrial Revolution. These places are not just about to be affected by Whitehall's vicious Welfare Reforms: they about to be hammered. Thousands of people are about to experience the kind of hardships that we naively thought had been left behind long ago. No heat and no light and no food.

I just read that. Powerful stuff. So true.

Some horrific points. Unemployed not only being hounded, but not given any real chance to be employed in these places!

Onset of winter must be frightening!

No = more of the same or worse to come

Yes = at least a chance to make a change

 

[TheMaganator]

 

 

Indeed. Till he left the party. A.man of conviction to be admired. Deserves a better opponent than Davidson from a unionist bent.

 

The Newsnicht debate on 2 is good. Mike Russell as bullish as ever. Defending his college cuts.

I was watching that. It was good.

 

Who's that labour girl? Kenzie? Bit of a babe. She may pip Marra for my top labour totty