Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[jack D and coke]

 

I'm one of the undecided. Genuinely keep going back and forth.

Aye I'm having a Yes week the now but I voted unsure in this poll as I change my mind all the time. I could be persuaded but the Yes campaign has a bit of convincing me to do yet.

[Ulysses]

I can't find anything.

 

I have a sense that a couple of previous polls showed a very big majority in favour of independence, which I recall as being about 3 to 1 in favour. Having said that, I can't recall seeing a poll in at least the last two years, and there's every chance my memory is faulty.

 

 

Having said that, I just found a poll that makes a liar out of me.

 

It was posted just after the 2011 Scottish elections, and with 415 voting on the poll it shows a narrower Yes majority than we're seeing in this poll so far (47% Yes, 41% No, 12% undecided). So, *ahem* it seems my impression was wrong.

 

 

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/92255-would-you-vote-for-independence/page__mode__show

[Ulysses]

And another poll from further back (September 2009), with a little over 300 votes showing a 57-43 majority in favour of independence.

 

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/56643-scottish-independence/page__hl__poll

 

Sorry, I very definitely seem to have been mistaken.

[scottish_chicP]

And another poll from further back (September 2009), with a little over 300 votes showing a 57-43 majority in favour of independence.

 

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/56643-scottish-independence/page__hl__poll

 

Sorry, I very definitely seem to have been mistaken.

 

Pffft come on Uly get your act together

[Das Root]

The march to independence is growing stronger it seems

[jack D and coke]

 

The march to independence is growing stronger it seems

I appreciate your opinion but what is it that 100% convinces you that things will be better? What is so wrong with your lot right now? Britain hasn't been bad for me at all and sometimes I wonder if it's worth all the hassle tbh. I'd see the point if Scotland was on its arse but are we? I could be convinced definitely but I just don't see what convinces people so strongly either way if I'm honest.

[TheMaganator]

 

 

I appreciate your opinion but what is it that 100% convinces you that things will be better? What is so wrong with your lot right now? Britain hasn't been bad for me at all and sometimes I wonder if it's worth all the hassle tbh. I'd see the point if Scotland was on its arse but are we? I could be convinced definitely but I just don't see what convinces people so strongly either way if I'm honest.

If I can add my own question here too for DR?

 

What would have to change, if there is anything at all, to make you vote No?

[TheMaganator]

The march to independence is growing stronger it seems

57% yes in the first one

47% yes in second

Current one at 49% yes

[JamboX2]

I've said this before and I'll say this again; the EU does not, nor will it ever have, the same or even comparable level of political control over Scotland that Westminster does. In terms of representation, we currently have six MEPS, the same as Luxembourg. Finland, which has a similar population size, has 13 MEPS. We can cooperate with the EU, and with the rest of these islands for that matter, on issues where we have a common interest. That's how the EU is supposed to work and despite its inefficiencies and issues, is generally a good thing.

 

Whilst I agree that the EU is in the round a good thing. It is a limiter in what we can and cannot do. For example, Scotland could not fully copy the Norweigian model of economics and state support for vital industries. Afterall State Aid is rigourously stamped out by the EU, therefore a Statoil or the like couldn't exist in Scotland, as it is in opposition to the idea of free market competition. On top of that benefits of the state, must be open to all EU citizens. There are rules on defence procurement, and rules which affect the functioning of consumer rights and employment law and the like are all governed by EU regulations and directive. So, yes it does have a major impact in how we are governed and how our government may and can govern us.

 

I'd like to see it reformed, loosened and made more confederal instead of an emerging federal juggernaut in the Eurozone with an outer periphery. But that doesn't seem like an option.

 

In relation to Scotland, independence and the EU - If Yes wins, then EU membership needs to be validated in a separate referendum. The SNP have said their white paper is the basis of the vote - the negotiating position - ergo all in it is all being approved. To me that's a nonsense. It should be independence, then a vote on our want to be an EU member, then a vote on NATO. These are issues which impact on the scope and limits of national sovereignty, and as a new nation we should, as a people have a say on these things. NATO membership sets out what level of defence posture we should have and that foreign powers can use our facilities at a mere instance. The EU sets limits on our economic freedoms and how we can and cannot compete globally - ie there are limits to say the scope of publically owned utilities and the like. They impact sovereignty greatly. As a new nation we the people need a say. If we want to be a Norway and out the EU and in EFTA or be a Denmark in both NATO and the EU or Ireland in the EU and not NATO, then that is for us to decide.

 

It's not for Salmond, Sturgeon, Swinney, Lamont, Davidson, Kennedy, Rennie, Alexander, Murphy and all the rest to decide that for us on the basis of a poll on independence - that is currently what we are told it will be. Based on the white paper proposals, as we have heard, this will mean NATO and the EU by default.

Edited November 7, 2013 by JamboX2

[TheMaganator]

 

 

Whilst I agree that the EU is in the round a good thing. It is a limiter in what we can and cannot do. For example, Scotland could not fully copy the Norweigian model of economics and state support for vital industries. Afterall State Aid is rigourously stamped out by the EU, therefore a Statoil or the like couldn't exist in Scotland, as it is in opposition to the idea of free market competition. On top of that benefits of the state, must be open to all EU citizens. There are rules on defence procurement, and rules which affect the functioning of consumer rights and employment law and the like are all governed by EU regulations and directive. So, yes it does have a major impact in how we are governed and how our government may and can govern us.

 

I'd like to see it reformed, loosened and made more confederal instead of an emerging federal juggernaut in the Eurozone with an outer periphery. But that doesn't seem like an option.

 

In relation to Scotland, independence and the EU - If Yes wins, then EU membership needs to be validated in a separate referendum. The SNP have said their white paper is the basis of the vote - the negotiating position - ergo all in it is all being approved. To me that's a nonsense. It should be independence, then a vote on our want to be an EU member, then a vote on NATO. These are issues which impact on the scope and limits of national sovereignty, and as a new nation we should, as a people have a say on these things. NATO membership sets out what level of defence posture we should have and that foreign powers can use our facilities at a mere instance. The EU sets limits on our economic freedoms and how we can and cannot compete globally - ie there are limits to say the scope of publically owned utilities and the like. They impact sovereignty greatly. As a new nation we the people need a say. If we want to be a Norway and out the EU and in EFTA or be a Denmark in both NATO and the EU or Ireland in the EU and NATO, then that is for us to decide.

The last para is otherwise it truly is Vote Yes for Salmond & the SNP

[Das Root]

 

If I can add my own question here too for DR?

 

What would have to change, if there is anything at all, to make you vote No?

 

 

Would never vote No. Never. Wholeheartedly believe we should be running our own affairs. That's all I need, no requirement for things to be better, though I know it will be.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Das Root

[TheMaganator]

 

 

 

Would never vote No. Never. Wholeheartedly believe we should be running our own affairs. That's all I need, no requirement for things to be better, though I know it will be.

That's fair enough. I've come across this a lot from Yes supporters.

 

Would you vote Yes even if it meant being worse off (there's obviously no way of knowing - but just say there was).

[jack D and coke]

 

 

 

 

Would never vote No. Never. Wholeheartedly believe we should be running our own affairs. That's all I need, no requirement for things to be better, though I know it will be.

Aye fair enough that's pretty much how it should be if your voting Yes. There should be no conditions of being better or worse off, you have to believe in it wholeheartedly come what may. I think there will probably be times when we're doing a bit better than the rest of the uk and vice versa but I don't think things will change that much or noticeably anyway for 10-15 years. I've said before I just expected much more from the SNP they've had their entire existence resting on this moment and they're doing very little to make me believe it's going to be worth the upheaval. Up to now anyway.

[Maroon Sailor]

 

 

Aye fair enough that's pretty much how it should be if your voting Yes. There should be no conditions of being better or worse off, you have to believe in it wholeheartedly come what may. I think there will probably be times when we're doing a bit better than the rest of the uk and vice versa but I don't think things will change that much or noticeably anyway for 10-15 years. I've said before I just expected much more from the SNP they've had their entire existence resting on this moment and they're doing very little to make me believe it's going to be worth the upheaval. Up to now anyway.

 

I wouldn't listen to Salmond and Sturgeon to try to convince you to vote Yes

Edited November 7, 2013 by Maroon Sailor

[jack D and coke]

 

 

 

I wouldn't let Salmond and Sturgeon try to convince you.

I'm trying to block out the fact that in the long term it's got nothing to do with them. Salmond I don't mind at times but even then only a fool would base their decision on a person or a party on something of this magnitude. Remove them from your thinking and decide.

Edited November 7, 2013 by jack D and coke

[Maroon Sailor]

 

 

I'm trying to block out the fact that in the long term it's got nothing to do with them. Salmond I don't mind at times but even then only a fool would base their decision on a person or a party on something of this magnitude. Remove them from your thinking and decide.

 

Also remove the jingoistic thinking.

[Patrick Bateman]

If we only consider the voting intentions that matter, that's 61% Yes 39% NO. A pretty conclusive result.

[reaths17]

Would never vote No. Never. Wholeheartedly believe we should be running our own affairs. That's all I need, no requirement for things to be better, though I know it will be.

 

are you getting to chose how your affairs are run?

 

no vote on nato, no vote on EU, seems more like their imposing major decisions on us than letting us chose for ourselves.

 

the council have imposed traffic restrictions all over town since they lost out on their traffic toll vote. the reason they gave for the restrictions were pollution and congestion yet these restrictions make you travel further(burning more fuel) and just moved the congestion to other parts of the city. they imposed the smoking ban without asking if they could or if there should be places for smoking and none smoking, despite having their very own smoking rooms at holyrood. was there a vote on the trams.

 

where is it that a scottish voice barking the orders is gonna give us free choice

[JamboX2]

If we only consider the voting intentions that matter, that's 61% Yes 39% NO. A pretty conclusive result.

 

What do you mean by this out of interest? May be being thick but how have you come to that conclusion.

[Patrick Bateman]

What do you mean by this out of interest? May be being thick but how have you come to that conclusion.

 

I'm referring to Ulysses' poll. There are no 'I'm undecided' or 'I'm not voting' options on the ballot, and non-domiciles obviously cannot vote. I took the percentage between Yes and No, and came up with 165, 102 of whom are Yes, which represents 61.8% of the vote.

[jack D and coke]

 

 

Also remove the jingoistic thinking.

Well I agree mate yes. I don't have blinkers on for Scotland at all but the SNP are hardly about to tell you Scotland is a bit pish unless we govern ourselves really are they, it's what their all about I suppose. I've felt a bit let down by the whole debate tbh this far anyway. I want to be inspired by somebody from either side and I expected with the present opposition that the SNP would wow us and wipe the floor with them but they've been only slightly less shite than Better Together for me. Hugely disappointing.

[JamboX2]

I'm referring to Ulysses' poll. There are no 'I'm undecided' or 'I'm not voting' options on the ballot, and non-domiciles obviously cannot vote. I took the percentage between Yes and No, and came up with 165, 102 of whom are Yes, which represents 61.8% of the vote.

 

Ah right gotcha. However, if you were to remove nondoms, obvious reasons but thought of undecideds as folk who wont vote anyway, would your result be the same? Again, late at night and attempting to get to the nub of your position.

[Maroon Sailor]

 

 

Well I agree mate yes. I don't have blinkers on for Scotland at all but the SNP are hardly about to tell you Scotland is a bit pish unless we govern ourselves really are they, it's what their all about I suppose. I've felt a bit let down by the whole debate tbh this far anyway. I want to be inspired by somebody from either side and I expected with the present opposition that the SNP would wow us and wipe the floor with them but they've been only slightly less shite than Better Together for me. Hugely disappointing.

 

Agree with that.

 

Even the wording of the question is a kop out.

 

 

[Das Root]

 

That's fair enough. I've come across this a lot from Yes supporters.

 

Would you vote Yes even if it meant being worse off (there's obviously no way of knowing - but just say there was).

 

Yep, can always work to make things better once you have the power to do so.

 

Scotland is a great nation full of good people, we will rise to the occasion and do what every other country in the world does.

[Das Root]

 

 

Aye fair enough that's pretty much how it should be if your voting Yes. There should be no conditions of being better or worse off, you have to believe in it wholeheartedly come what may. I think there will probably be times when we're doing a bit better than the rest of the uk and vice versa but I don't think things will change that much or noticeably anyway for 10-15 years. I've said before I just expected much more from the SNP they've had their entire existence resting on this moment and they're doing very little to make me believe it's going to be worth the upheaval. Up to now anyway.

 

 

There's a long way to go until the referendum date, but the white paper is just round the corner.

 

Things will ratchet up a notch come January, that's a given.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Das Root

[Alba gu Brath]

That's fair enough. I've come across this a lot from Yes supporters.

 

Would you vote Yes even if it meant being worse off (there's obviously no way of knowing - but just say there was).

 

There's absolutely no reason for believing that we would be worse off. On what grounds could someone think that we were? Independence is the natural order of things - be it personally when you leave your parents' nest or for a nation. We need to bring power to the people as much as possible. Yes is the first step.

 

LIke someone said, say we vote 'no'. What happens the next day? A shrug of acknowledgement that it's same old, same old from now on.

 

Vote yes though and the future is ours to make.

[JamboX2]

Well I agree mate yes. I don't have blinkers on for Scotland at all but the SNP are hardly about to tell you Scotland is a bit pish unless we govern ourselves really are they, it's what their all about I suppose. I've felt a bit let down by the whole debate tbh this far anyway. I want to be inspired by somebody from either side and I expected with the present opposition that the SNP would wow us and wipe the floor with them but they've been only slightly less shite than Better Together for me. Hugely disappointing.

 

You'd never be inspired by anyone running any major Scottish party. To be honest if you were I'd be shocked and request you be sectioned. Salmond is bombastic, brash and uncooperative. Lamont is very poor in deliver, she comes across poorly and she is for some reason not trying to deliver policy and leaving herself and her party open to attacks as spurious as some of the guff you here in the debate on independence. Davidson is probably the best opposition leader in her delivery and the way she works in the chamber at Holyrood. Rennie again is soft spoken, not overly charismatic and has little gravitas. Even Patrick Harvie has little in the way of charisma like his predecessor Harper, Colin Fox of the SSP is a nobody in Scottish life and Sheridan loathed. Margo is the most down to earth and likeable Scottish politician in existence (unless you're a jambo and an FOH backer obviously....)

 

To think this debate was to be a great passionate debate, worthy of the Midlothian Campaign, the Disraeli speeches, the Llyod George campaigns or Nye Bevans rhetoric or even, to borrow from America, the great Presidential debates was naieve. This was to be a slog, a slow march and gruellingly agonizing campaign of mediocrity for ages. No doubt the final 6 weeks of it will be "fun", but like you I feel this has been a most loathesome and unengaging campaign officially. If I was a Yes man or a No-er I'd be totally unwilling to wear a Yes Scotland rain coat or a Better Together hoody and stand in pishing rain at Waverly handing out leaflets or knocking on doors - I loathe apathy, but this debate has given me a degree of voter fatigue. I know a lot of folk, staunch at the beginning on both sides, who now say "ach, it's a dirge this debate, I'll just go with what happens...", that isn't right in a debate on a nations future. I really do blame the politicians of all stripes for this. They've made this campaign acrimonious and dull. Their personalities and tribalism have killed it. Drop Salmond etc, lets hear McLeish, Margo, Jim Sillars, Charlie Kennedy, Malcolm Rifkind, Murdo Fraser and those more moderate voices open to ideas and frank debate.

[Maroon Sailor]

 

 

 

There's absolutely no reason for believing that we would be worse off. On what grounds could someone think that we were? Independence is the natural order of things - be it personally when you leave your parents' nest or for a nation. We need to bring power to the people as much as possible. Yes is the first step.

 

LIke someone said, say we vote 'no'. What happens the next day? A shrug of acknowledgement that it's same old, same old from now on.

 

Vote yes though and the future is ours to make.

 

The future will be the Politicians to make.

 

Same old, same old

[Das Root]

 

 

 

Agree with that.

 

Even the wording of the question is a kop out.

 

 

How? What question would you ask?

[Das Root]

 

 

 

The future will be the Politicians to make.

 

Same old, same old

 

 

You could run for parliament?

[JamboX2]

There's absolutely no reason for believing that we would be worse off. On what grounds could someone think that we were? Independence is the natural order of things - be it personally when you leave your parents' nest or for a nation. We need to bring power to the people as much as possible. Yes is the first step.

 

LIke someone said, say we vote 'no'. What happens the next day? A shrug of acknowledgement that it's same old, same old from now on.

 

Vote yes though and the future is ours to make.

 

Or we sit down and go, right no to independence, yes to Scotland in the UK and more power here. We can look to alternatives. As DR said, the white paper is yet to come. I reckon the No parties will offer their alternative platform to that in the coming months. To not would be a great embarrasment and leaving a gaping whole in their argument. I doubt they are that stupid.

[Maroon Sailor]

 

 

 

 

How? What question would you ask?

 

Do you want Scotland to become an independent nation ?

 

Yes. No

 

 

 

Simple

[Das Root]

 

 

Or we sit down and go, right no to independence, yes to Scotland in the UK and more power here. We can look to alternatives. As DR said, the white paper is yet to come. I reckon the No parties will offer their alternative platform to that in the coming months. To not would be a great embarrasment and leaving a gaping whole in their argument. I doubt they are that stupid.

 

 

I would think that we will be told we already had more powers devolved recently, there is obviously no appetite for additional and to get on with things as is.

 

Westminster will tighten the screw, especially if the Tories get reelected with a majority next election.

[Patrick Bateman]

The future will be the Politicians to make.

 

Same old, same old

 

As supposed to what? I'd be interesting to hear how folk who complain about elected politicians making decisions propose to change things. A benevolent dictator? A monarch with full constitutional power?

[TheMaganator]

 

 

There's absolutely no reason for believing that we would be worse off. On what grounds could someone think that we were? Independence is the natural order of things - be it personally when you leave your parents' nest or for a nation. We need to bring power to the people as much as possible. Yes is the first step.

 

LIke someone said, say we vote 'no'. What happens the next day? A shrug of acknowledgement that it's same old, same old from now on.

 

Vote yes though and the future is ours to make.

There's no evidence we'd be better or worse off - lots of speculation but that's as far as it goes (despite what partisan bloggers & websites will assert & tell you).

 

Do you think there'll be any negatives to a Yes vote?

 

Even the most hardened yes voter must realise it won't all be plain sailing. I'm not interested in a 'we'll get through any problems' type answer.

 

I've never heard any Yes voter mention a single negative aspect to the upheaval which is just not credible IMO.

[Das Root]

 

 

 

Do you want Scotland to become an independent nation ?

 

Yes. No

 

 

 

Simple

 

 

The question is...should Scotland be an independent country...aye, naw?

 

What's the difference?

[Patrick Bateman]

Even the most hardened yes voter must realise it won't all be plain sailing. I'm not interested in a 'we'll get through any problems' type answer.

 

Of course you aren't, because it neuters your point. Every country has issues and challenges, it's whether you think decisions are better made in Scotland, or at Westminster. When you look at where we are as a nation compared to others, the answer is pretty obvious.

[Maroon Sailor]

 

 

 

As supposed to what? I'd be interesting to hear how folk who complain about elected politicians making decisions propose to change things. A benevolent dictator? A monarch with full constitutional power?

 

This ' our decision to make ' line doesn't wash with me. It implies everything is going to be hunky dory no matter what the impact it has on our lives.

[TheMaganator]

 

 

Of course you aren't, because it neuters your point. Every country has issues and challenges, it's whether you think decisions are better made in Scotland, or at Westminster. When you look at where we are as a nation compared to others, the answer is pretty obvious.

You've clearly given it a lot if thought - I'm just wondering if you, or any other Yes voter is prepared to say 'yeah, X will be a problem and not ideal, but gaining independence will be worth that particular problem'.

 

Every potential pitfall the No side raise is dismissed as scaremongering.

 

Are you prepared to say they'll be any negatives? If so, what do you think they'll be?

[Patrick Bateman]

This ' our decision to make ' line doesn't wash with me. It implies everything is going to be hunky dory no matter what the impact it has on our lives.

 

So decisions are better/well made at Westminster? Can you explain that one to me, considering we're ?1.2 trillion in debt, in an unwinnable war and live in one of the most unequal societies in the developed world. Again, these are the facts, rather than the 'aye, but what if we can't do it' nonsense shown by the other side.

[Maroon Sailor]

 

 

 

 

The question is...should Scotland be an independent country...aye, naw?

 

What's the difference?

 

Should you go to the Hearts match ? ............. Yes, because the club needs the money

 

Do you want to go to the Hearts match ? .........No, because I can't be arsed

 

[Das Root]

 

 

 

This ' our decision to make ' line doesn't wash with me. It implies everything is going to be hunky dory no matter what the impact it has on our lives.

 

Is it hunky dory now? Have decisions made by Westminster made your life and others you know better?

 

Of course not and there will be bumps in the road post independence, but at least Edinburgh will have full powers to solve them and a mandate from the Scottish people to do so...which is not the case today with a government in Westminster we did not vote for.

Edited November 7, 2013 by Das Root

[Das Root]

 

 

 

Should you go to the Hearts match ? ............. Yes, because the club needs the money

 

Do you want to go to the Hearts match ? .........No, because I can't be arsed

 

 

Well when you cast your vote remember to score out the wording and replace with your own.

 

It asks the same, it answers the same. The result will be the same and I think people are smart enough to understand it.

[Maroon Sailor]

 

 

 

So decisions are better/well made at Westminster? Can you explain that one to me, considering we're ?1.2 trillion in debt, in an unwinnable war and live in one of the most unequal societies in the developed world. Again, these are the facts, rather than the 'aye, but what if we can't do it' nonsense shown by the other side.

 

Do you live comfortably ?

[Das Root]

 

You've clearly given it a lot if thought - I'm just wondering if you, or any other Yes voter is prepared to say 'yeah, X will be a problem and not ideal, but gaining independence will be worth that particular problem'.

 

Every potential pitfall the No side raise is dismissed as scaremongering.

 

Are you prepared to say they'll be any negatives? If so, what do you think they'll be?

 

 

There will be issues, there are today anyway. All worth it though. All worth it.

[Patrick Bateman]

You've clearly given it a lot if thought - I'm just wondering if you, or any other Yes voter is prepared to say 'yeah, X will be a problem and not ideal, but gaining independence will be worth that particular problem'.

 

Every potential pitfall the No side raise is dismissed as scaremongering.

 

Are you prepared to say they'll be any negatives? If so, what do you think they'll be?

 

Of course, I'm pretty sure I've said it many times throughout this thread, but that could have been months ago. Scotland faces many challenges regardless of whether we vote yes or no. We will need to form any number of new institutions, potentially embassies and so on, so the scope for getting things wrong is huge, and in some instances, mistakes will undoubtedly be made, there will be areas on which we can improve. I don't see why you're concerned with the negatives over the positives. I am interested in going for things were the positives outweigh the negatives, but that's a personal choice.

 

The key thing for me is this; I believe that decisions effecting people are best made as close to them as possible. That's not just applicable to Scotland, but probably everywhere. If we vote No, we're endorsing a political system that returns Governments with little/no mandate in Scotland, an economic system which is massively indebted, and so on. The fear of independence would be far easier for me to accept if Westminster was efficient at managing the UK as a whole, let alone Scotland's affairs.

[Patrick Bateman]

Do you live comfortably ?

 

Firstly, that's utterly irrelevant, secondly; you didn't answer my question. You complain about politicians all being the same, yet cannot raise an alternative. That's because there isn't a single credible alternative.

[JamboX2]

 

 

 

I would think that we will be told we already had more powers devolved recently, there is obviously no appetite for additional and to get on with things as is.

 

Westminster will tighten the screw, especially if the Tories get reelected with a majority next election.

 

That paranoia doesnt match the work in Wales on further devolution. Nor do I think Westminster will screw the nut as Scots will have backed the Union. I think they'd get tougher after a Yes vote - bearing in mind the Union wont disolve till 2016 I dont see why they'd play to our best interests in those last two years.

 

I think it has become bad devolution 3.0 wasnt included on the ballot. I dont think it writes it off. If people in Scotland vote for it at Holyrood then moves are made to gain it. The SNP gain a mandate for a referendum and we get the s.30 order/Edinburgh Agreement and next years vote. Thats unique.in Europe. Catalonia would love that relaxed and open attitude.

 

I reckon more devolution is as possible and achievable as independence is.

[Maroon Sailor]

 

 

Firstly, that's utterly irrelevant, secondly; you didn't answer my question. You complain about politicians all being the same, yet cannot raise an alternative. That's because there isn't a single credible alternative.

 

It's not utterly irrelevant. Don't suppose you want to live in a poor independent Scotland.

 

You can hardly believe a word Politician's spout.

 

Manifesto's are not worth the paper they are written on.

 

The reason they get away with it is because there is no credible alternative. Doesn't mean to say we should be happy to get things wrong just because it was ' our ' decision to make.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Maroon Sailor

[JamboX2]

 

 

Firstly, that's utterly irrelevant, secondly; you didn't answer my question. You complain about politicians all being the same, yet cannot raise an alternative. That's because there isn't a single credible alternative.

 

It is relevant. If you live well and happily. House, car etc then you'll be less likely to vote for big changes to how our lives are governed.

 

Politicians lack an alternative because its down to an alternative emerging. The system and faces wont change come this. That means policies and attitudes wont change. That means muted change.

Edited November 8, 2013 by JamboX2