Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[il Duce McTarkin]

[John Findlay]

30 minutes ago, ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ said:

 

It wasn't a country that sought and achieved independence then decided to return though. It's really not a good analogue in any meaningful way.

None of the Warsaw pact countries sought independence as such. Discounting Hungary 56 and Czechoslovakia 68.

However after the wall came down Poland, Hungary, Czechia nowadays decided to be independent. East Germany could have done so too. Decided to reunite with West Germany as they a ultimately knew where their bread was best buttered.

Interesting that Bulgaria, Poland, Romania, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Czechia, Slovakia, Croatia, Slovenia, Albania, Montenegro are now all members of NATO.

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

4 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

None of the Warsaw pact countries sought independence as such. Discounting Hungary 56 and Czechoslovakia 68.

However after the wall came down Poland, Hungary, Czechia nowadays decided to be independent. East Germany could have done so too. Decided to reunite with West Germany as they a ultimately knew where their bread was best buttered.

Interesting that Bulgaria, Poland, Romania, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Czechia, Slovakia, Croatia, Slovenia, Albania, Montenegro are now all members of NATO.

 

Poland, Hungary and Czechia were representative of the populations that lived there though; Poles, Magyars, Czechs, each with their own culture and language. East Germany was the result of an artificial partitioning, and returned to the federation it shared a language and history with, and had voluntarily belonged to.

[il Duce McTarkin]

12 minutes ago, ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ said:

 

Poland, Hungary and Czechia were representative of the populations that lived there though; Poles, Magyars, Czechs, each with their own culture and language.

 

Just like Scotchland.

[That thing you do]

3 hours ago, lost in space said:

What a very good post.  Thanks for listing the items that you have. Of course it isnt possible to cover all of the points to consider - would take a long time to cover everything - e.g. the legislation to uncouple from the UK.

Much of what you have listed is rather "blue sky thinking" - e.g. developing a robust and adaptable economy + you are looking for other organizations (EU etc)  UK (to share embassies) to play ball.

I like the transfer window analogy - showing that it would take many years to actually get where we want to get to - but some big priorities to start with.

 

I am not going to go over each of your points - I like a lot of them - as it would take too long - but I would like to make the following points -

 

"Why is no-one else joining with neighbours?" - they are - EU for trade and Finland (and Ukraine hopefully) joining EU and NATO for protection.

 

"What country that was independent has gone back" - well of course none; and Scotland wouldnt go back either.  Scotland would not all of a sudden become bankrupt and have people dying in the streets with starvation. We would just slowly decline (faster than the UK). UK is a co-operative - a bit like the EU. When Scotland had oil, we helped carry the economy - now London finances do.

 

"Scotland would make Scotlands decisions" - but the Nats want to join the EU!!!  So we would do what Brussels required.  I do laugh at the idea of "FREEDOM" when we would immediately try to join an organisation that tells us what to do..

 

Last point - "It (Scotland) can run itself" + thinking "Scots are not talented enough" - yes, many Scots in history helped to invent the modern world and I am proud of what Scots have achieved.  However, we have never needed as many as we would, to run a government successfully - including a second chamber. Take a look at the Scottish government cabinet - are you happy to have the massive decisions we would have to make, be made by people like Angela Constance and Neil Gray???? 

 

Thanks for writing your post - it helped to see a fraction of what we would have to do. A huge amount of work - with no evidence of any gain.

Yes and thats the point. Any gains come afterwards.

 

So its a leap of faith. That Scotland will do better running Scotland than Westminster does.

 

Though what that will look like will depend on the first Scottish Government. 

 

The only evidence is precedent. Ireland never looked back. Finland Norway Ireland all have same or less resources than Scotland but are more prosperous.

 

A small economy is more agile than a large one.

 

 

 

 

[lost in space]

1 minute ago, That thing you do said:

Yes and thats the point. Any gains come afterwards.

 

So its a leap of faith. That Scotland will do better running Scotland than Westminster does.

 

Though what that will look like will depend on the first Scottish Government. 

 

The only evidence is precedent. Ireland never looked back. Finland Norway Ireland all have same or less resources than Scotland but are more prosperous.

 

A small economy is more agile than a large one.

 

 

 

 

Re the economics - as you say "a leap of faith" required.

I know UK has had Johnston and Truss but with Labour in power, the hatred of Westminster will reduce, in time. Labour will improve the UK - again, in time.

Scotland is approx one tenth of the size of UK - so UK should be able to produce much better politicians. 

The level of politicians at Holyrood is very poor.

I can't take that leap of faith when looking at the present SNP cabinet at Holyrood.

[Gundermann]

3 hours ago, luckydug said:

Congratulations for the most stupid post in the thread

 

Not really. Although a reunited Germany was created, West Germany in effect took over East Germany and plundered it.

[Malinga the Swinga]

I see the SNP have managed to change law do that no-one can find out attendance record of MSP's in parliament.

I believe after change, a certain MSP called Nicola Sturgeon complained after her record of non attendance was already published. Said it was harming her mental health and that it could lead to her being in danger if people realised just how seldom she, and others of all parties, actually do anything like work. Her attendance record immediately deleted Freedom of information just ignored because these chancers prefer we don't see how little they do.

Shut the ****ing place down, it's a chamber of nothingness.

Edited January 12 by Malinga the Swinga

[lost in space]

54 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

I see the SNP have managed to change law do that no-one can find out attendance record of MSP's in parliament.

I believe after change, a certain MSP called Nicola Sturgeon complained after her record of non attendance was already published. Said it was harming her mental health and that it could lead to her being in danger if people realised just how seldom she, and others of all parties, actually do anything like work. Her attendance record immediately deleted Freedom of information just ignored because these chancers prefer we don't see how little they do.

Shut the ****ing place down, it's a chamber of nothingness.

Is there actually any point of them being there most of the time anyway?  Apart from the leaders of the parties and one or two deputies, does anybody else speak often enough?  If an MSP is putting a Bill through (not their expenses), they will speak - but otherwise??? 

 

I think many come in for FM questions as they know the cameras will be there.

 

Even for votes - with the computer voting, can they not just vote from the golf course - or wherever they are?  Do they even have to be in the UK?

Maybe each party should just have a block vote anyway for the number of MSPs they have - since probably every MSP votes as their party requires.

 

Close the place down and hire a room - for use once per week, for about 10 people.

 

Or better still - get them all to work from home.

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

1 hour ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

I see the SNP have managed to change law do that no-one can find out attendance record of MSP's in parliament.

I believe after change, a certain MSP called Nicola Sturgeon complained after her record of non attendance was already published. Said it was harming her mental health and that it could lead to her being in danger if people realised just how seldom she, and others of all parties, actually do anything like work. Her attendance record immediately deleted Freedom of information just ignored because these chancers prefer we don't see how little they do.

Shut the ****ing place down, it's a chamber of nothingness.

 

Only independence can rid you of the SNP my friend.

[John Findlay]

22 minutes ago, ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ said:

 

Only independence can rid you of the SNP my friend.

So if independence gets rid of the SNP, no wonder they are not keen to achieving it.

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

36 minutes ago, John Findlay said:

So if independence gets rid of the SNP, no wonder they are not keen to achieving it.

 

They have a cushy number in the big cooncil gig, nearly as cushy as the unionists who don't even need to bother with running anything.

 

Vote independence for a government that GAF about Scotland.

[lost in space]

1 hour ago, ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ said:

 

They have a cushy number in the big cooncil gig, nearly as cushy as the unionists who don't even need to bother with running anything.

 

Vote independence for a government that GAF about Scotland.

To be fair, Holyrood do care more about Scotland - just a pity that they are totally incompetent. Drugs, Alcohol mis-use, domestic violence, falling Education standards, poverty, etc

Holyrood didn't invent them but havnt improved them either.

[lost in space]

Nicola Sturgeon and Peter Murrell to end marriage - BBC News

 

They seem so perfect together too.

[Gundermann]

22 hours ago, lost in space said:

To be fair, Holyrood do care more about Scotland - just a pity that they are totally incompetent. Drugs, Alcohol mis-use, domestic violence, falling Education standards, poverty, etc

Holyrood didn't invent them but havnt improved them either.

 

Can you qualify that last statement?

[OTT]

On 12/01/2025 at 09:39, Malinga the Swinga said:

I see the SNP have managed to change law do that no-one can find out attendance record of MSP's in parliament.

I believe after change, a certain MSP called Nicola Sturgeon complained after her record of non attendance was already published. Said it was harming her mental health and that it could lead to her being in danger if people realised just how seldom she, and others of all parties, actually do anything like work. Her attendance record immediately deleted Freedom of information just ignored because these chancers prefer we don't see how little they do.

Shut the ****ing place down, it's a chamber of nothingness.

 

Thats not acceptable tbh. Is there a report for that?

 

We elect politicians to speak for us, if they're not there to do that then we have a right to know....??

[Malinga the Swinga]

18 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Thats not acceptable tbh. Is there a report for that?

 

We elect politicians to speak for us, if they're not there to do that then we have a right to know....??

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/scottish-parliament-attendance-logs-made-secret-to-protect-msps-jrltp9qsq&ved=2ahUKEwiY29D34_KKAxUYSkEAHR4WMvcQFnoECBoQAQ&sqi=2&usg=AOvVaw0n6LupXsQPGqovN-hFgKgM

https://www.telegraph.co.uk

It was in Sunday papers 

[OTT]

2 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/scottish-parliament-attendance-logs-made-secret-to-protect-msps-jrltp9qsq&ved=2ahUKEwiY29D34_KKAxUYSkEAHR4WMvcQFnoECBoQAQ&sqi=2&usg=AOvVaw0n6LupXsQPGqovN-hFgKgM

https://www.telegraph.co.uk

It was in Sunday papers 

 

That is absolutely shocking. 

 

Transparency is always the correct thing to do. This is nothing more than a marking their own homework type exercise to help hide data that could paint them in a bad light. 

 

This wasn't in any manifesto, so why the hell has it been allowed to be put through? That should be reversed immediately. 

 

Shock horror Sturgeon at the centre of it. "I've turned up to my job once in a year and the public are mocking me, change the rules". ****ing pathetic. 

[Lord Montpelier]

2 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

That is absolutely shocking. 

 

Transparency is always the correct thing to do. This is nothing more than a marking their own homework type exercise to help hide data that could paint them in a bad light. 

 

This wasn't in any manifesto, so why the hell has it been allowed to be put through? That should be reversed immediately. 

 

Shock horror Sturgeon at the centre of it. "I've turned up to my job once in a year and the public are mocking me, change the rules". ****ing pathetic. 

They are all wee sensitive souls, got to protect their mental health. Typical SNP move this one. 

[lost in space]

45 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

Can you qualify that last statement?

I have made the statement that these areas (and others like the NHS) have not improved.

Which of these areas would you say have improved?

[OTT]

4 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

They are all wee sensitive souls, got to protect their mental health. Typical SNP move this one. 

 

Its actually cowardly and purely designed to protect them from criticism. 

 

If my MSP says they care about housing for young people, then miss every housing for young people debate, how am I supposed to hold them accountable if I can't see that they've attended?

 

Also, they need to elaborate on the physical protection hiding this information provides. Presumably the data isn't released in real time so some would be lunatic can't hunt them down ffs. 

 

 

[Lord Montpelier]

1 minute ago, OTT said:

 

Its actually cowardly and purely designed to protect them from criticism. 

 

If my MSP says they care about housing for young people, then miss every housing for young people debate, how am I supposed to hold them accountable if I can't see that they've attended?

 

Also, they need to elaborate on the physical protection hiding this information provides. Presumably the data isn't released in real time so some would be lunatic can't hunt them down ffs. 

 

 

Its spineless. Very SNP. 

[OTT]

8 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Its spineless. Very SNP. 

 

It reminds me of the SPL/SPFL refusing to publish which local refereeing association the match day ref belongs to. 

 

Purely designed to dodge accountability. Serves nobodies interest except those pulling a fast one. 

[Gundermann]

19 minutes ago, lost in space said:

I have made the statement that these areas (and others like the NHS) have not improved.

Which of these areas would you say have improved?

 

Re the NHS, free prescriptions and hospital parking is one hell of an improvement. Free education and child care too. I believe recent education stats show us making progress too.

 

Regarding the failings in public services across all 4 nations though, the one common thread there is Westminster. A layer of incompetence we just don't need.

[Gundermann]

34 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/scottish-parliament-attendance-logs-made-secret-to-protect-msps-jrltp9qsq&ved=2ahUKEwiY29D34_KKAxUYSkEAHR4WMvcQFnoECBoQAQ&sqi=2&usg=AOvVaw0n6LupXsQPGqovN-hFgKgM

https://www.telegraph.co.uk

It was in Sunday papers 

 

Do the SNP have the numbers to do this without support?

 

FWIW, we should know which MSPs are turning up to work.

[Mikey1874]

Murrell must be getting charged soon.

[lost in space]

1 hour ago, Gundermann said:

 

Re the NHS, free prescriptions and hospital parking is one hell of an improvement. Free education and child care too. I believe recent education stats show us making progress too.

 

Regarding the failings in public services across all 4 nations though, the one common thread there is Westminster. A layer of incompetence we just don't need.

Free prescriptions for rich people while the poor are starving. Same for bus passes - poorly paid workers paying for the bus while old rich people travel for free.

Free education - well that is hardly new!

Education stats are improving from a VERY LOW bar.  We were so much better.

Westminster - "a layer of incompetence we dont need" - but you want to stick with SNP in Holyrood - a layer of incompetence and corruption.

 

I notice you didnt comment on the BIG matters that have become so much worse (or no better) - child poverty, alcohol, drugs, bigotry, domestic violence, NHS shambles, emergency services underfunding, non duel of the M9, Ferries.  I have probably missed many others.   Can you show ANY improvements in these issues.

 

 

[Boab]

1 hour ago, lost in space said:

Free prescriptions for rich people while the poor are starving. Same for bus passes - poorly paid workers paying for the bus while old rich people travel for free.

Free education - well that is hardly new!

Education stats are improving from a VERY LOW bar.  We were so much better.

Westminster - "a layer of incompetence we dont need" - but you want to stick with SNP in Holyrood - a layer of incompetence and corruption.

 

I notice you didnt comment on the BIG matters that have become so much worse (or no better) - child poverty, alcohol, drugs, bigotry, domestic violence, NHS shambles, emergency services underfunding, non duel of the M9, Ferries.  I have probably missed many others.   Can you show ANY improvements in these issues.

 

 

Many things can be laid at the Nats’ door, but bigotry ?

😂

 

Most raving bigots in Scotland hate the Nats ! That speaks for itself. Morons !

[OTT]

1 hour ago, lost in space said:

Free prescriptions for rich people while the poor are starving. Same for bus passes - poorly paid workers paying for the bus while old rich people travel for free.

Free education - well that is hardly new!

Education stats are improving from a VERY LOW bar.  We were so much better.

Westminster - "a layer of incompetence we dont need" - but you want to stick with SNP in Holyrood - a layer of incompetence and corruption.

 

I notice you didnt comment on the BIG matters that have become so much worse (or no better) - child poverty, alcohol, drugs, bigotry, domestic violence, NHS shambles, emergency services underfunding, non duel of the M9, Ferries.  I have probably missed many others.   Can you show ANY improvements in these issues.

 

 

 

Thats kind of how universal policies work. FWIW, it cost more to administrate prescription charges than the income it brought in. So made little sense to maintain that - otherwise where is the business case for prescription charges? Charge more to compensate for that? That would be insanity... A lot of wealthy elderly people have cars anyway, my grandparents were still driving in their 80s (absolutely shouldn't have been mind you, but thats another argument!! ) - I actually don't think either ever actually used a bus!  So this idea that wealthy elderly people are chuckling away enjoying their free trips on the bus is a little silly. It massively helps those that need it, and with how bad the state pension is, its a fantastic policy that does what its intended for. 

 

When benefits like those are means tested, there invariably becomes a segment of the population that fall through the cracks. Scrapping tuition fees has allowed a whole generation of Scots to go to University (myself included) who otherwise couldn't have afforded to. Just look at the winter fuel payment, huge swathes of the country utterly abandoned. They bring in a benefit, but it only applies to the absolute most extreme case. Everyone else can choose between heating or eating. 

 

No policy decision is without criticism. But I think when these decisions are boiled down, the intent behind them was purely positive and they've all had hugely positive effects on society. 

 

 

 

[lost in space]

15 minutes ago, Boab said:

Many things can be laid at the Nats’ door, but bigotry ?

😂

 

Most raving bigots in Scotland hate the Nats ! That speaks for itself. Morons !

I DONT blame the Nats for bigotry. I blame them for making no improvements.

[Boab]

4 minutes ago, lost in space said:

I DONT blame the Nats for bigotry. I blame them for making no improvements.

Harsh !

Bigotry runs deep in Scotland. An impossible thing to improve when dealing with single cell organisms.

[lost in space]

3 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Thats kind of how universal policies work. FWIW, it cost more to administrate prescription charges than the income it brought in. So made little sense to maintain that - otherwise where is the business case for prescription charges? Charge more to compensate for that? That would be insanity... A lot of wealthy elderly people have cars anyway, my grandparents were still driving in their 80s (absolutely shouldn't have been mind you, but thats another argument!! ) - I actually don't think either ever actually used a bus!  So this idea that wealthy elderly people are chuckling away enjoying their free trips on the bus is a little silly. It massively helps those that need it, and with how bad the state pension is, its a fantastic policy that does what its intended for. 

 

When benefits like those are means tested, there invariably becomes a segment of the population that fall through the cracks. Scrapping tuition fees has allowed a whole generation of Scots to go to University (myself included) who otherwise couldn't have afforded to. Just look at the winter fuel payment, huge swathes of the country utterly abandoned. They bring in a benefit, but it only applies to the absolute most extreme case. Everyone else can choose between heating or eating. 

 

No policy decision is without criticism. But I think when these decisions are boiled down, the intent behind them was purely positive and they've all had hugely positive effects on society. 

 

 

 

OTT - your posts are mostly/always good - but basing rich old people on your grandparents isn't really a big enough cross section!

Admin costs on prescriptions charges cost more than the actual charge? - I find that hard to believe. If true, of course I would support "free".

"Free" university fees - paid for by using the fees of foreign students - thereby filling our unis with non-Scots.

Winter Fuel Allowance - Holyrood could pay- but I get the point that this has gone.

Not good but not affordable, Labour say.

I do think this an area that should have been prioritised - for thise on low incomes, no matter their age.

[lost in space]

12 minutes ago, Boab said:

Harsh !

Bigotry runs deep in Scotland. An impossible thing to improve when dealing with single cell organisms.

I agree your description on the bigots. I seem to remember that SNP did try - but failed - with legislation they passed but never imposed. Hugely difficult but not impossible.

Could start by closing stands at some football grounds. Or impose fines.

Would lose SNP voters though so not going to happen.

[John Findlay]

13 minutes ago, lost in space said:

I agree your description on the bigots. I seem to remember that SNP did try - but failed - with legislation they passed but never imposed. Hugely difficult but not impossible.

Could start by closing stands at some football grounds. Or impose fines.

Would lose SNP voters though so not going to happen.

Yes legislation that was actually criticised most by the non-protestant side of the bigotry coin.

[OTT]

3 minutes ago, lost in space said:

OTT - your posts are mostly/always good - but basing rich old people on your grandparents isn't really a big enough cross section!

Admin costs on prescriptions charges cost more than the actual charge? - I find that hard to believe. If true, of course I would support "free".

"Free" university fees - paid for by using the fees of foreign students - thereby filling our unis with non-Scots.

Winter Fuel Allowance - Holyrood could pay- but I get the point that this has gone.

Not good but not affordable, Labour say.

I do think this an area that should have been prioritised - for thise on low incomes, no matter their age.

 

Of course not!  But I was using an anecdote to make my point. You were talking about more affluent older people, and I was saying that a good chunk of them drive anyway (and certainly drive for too long!!) So I don't agree with the premise that loads of rich old folk are getting great use out of the bus pass. 

 

The admin costs on prescription charges is absolutely true. Alex Salmond cited it in an interview he did with Mike Graham IIRC but I appreciate "but Alex Salmond said so" isn't a convincing point, so here is an article where experts agree that it does save money  https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/health/15576253.Free_prescriptions__save_NHS_money__despite_bill_for_ageing_and_obesity/ - I have been looking for the video and its annoyingly not easy to find. One of those where that snippet is buried in a longer video and I'd need to find that first, and by christ did he do a lot of interviews over the last 18 months of his life. 

 

The foreign students is undoubtedly a problem, and thats kind of what I was getting at with my final point around there being issues with any policy. I can remember being in a corporate finance lecture and I swear there was a handful (c5 by my count) of Scottish students over about 90 students. Obviously, if tuition fees were brought back, we'd end up in a similar position to England where it is a very real and very daunting problem. As things stand, Scottish students get 4 years further education, that could be at College or Uni. The colleges aren't filled with Foreign students, its almost exclusively the Uni's so it does need to be looked at. On the flip side, you can do 2 years at college and 2 years at Uni and still complete a degree with hons, so its not locked off in the way that the media I think try and spin it. 

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

Of course, every single thing that the SNP and holyrood are being blamed for, is happening within the union.

 

Only independence can free us of this state of affairs.

[Malinga the Swinga]

Good news though. Scotland now providing our junkies with nice facilities to take their illegal drugs in Glasgow.

Millions spent so druggies can take their heroin and cocaine in comfort.

That'll be a consolation to those who are seeing their taxes pay for these folk to chill and contribute nothing to society.

Added to a ferry finally being launched years late and it is a day chosen carefully by Nicola to announce her news.

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

1 minute ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Good news though. Scotland now providing our junkies with nice facilities to take their illegal drugs in Glasgow.

Millions spent so druggies can take their heroin and cocaine in comfort.

That'll be a consolation to those who are seeing their taxes pay for these folk to chill and contribute nothing to society.

Added to a ferry finally being launched years late and it is a day chosen carefully by Nicola to announce her news.

 

Millions?

And would you prefer them squatting in your neighbourhood, leaving needles everywhere?

What happened to Malinga the top socialist, always thinking of others?

[lost in space]

4 minutes ago, Malinga the Swinga said:

Good news though. Scotland now providing our junkies with nice facilities to take their illegal drugs in Glasgow.

Millions spent so druggies can take their heroin and cocaine in comfort.

That'll be a consolation to those who are seeing their taxes pay for these folk to chill and contribute nothing to society.

Added to a ferry finally being launched years late and it is a day chosen carefully by Nicola to announce her news.

The drugs are not being tested, I understand. So only a matter of time surely before some user dies, using poisonous drugs. How long before there is a relative looking for (and getting) compo for the loss of their "loved one" who is being ALLOWED

to take drugs?

[Gundermann]

4 hours ago, lost in space said:

Free prescriptions for rich people while the poor are starving. Same for bus passes - poorly paid workers paying for the bus while old rich people travel for free.

Free education - well that is hardly new!

Education stats are improving from a VERY LOW bar.  We were so much better.

Westminster - "a layer of incompetence we dont need" - but you want to stick with SNP in Holyrood - a layer of incompetence and corruption.

 

I notice you didnt comment on the BIG matters that have become so much worse (or no better) - child poverty, alcohol, drugs, bigotry, domestic violence, NHS shambles, emergency services underfunding, non duel of the M9, Ferries.  I have probably missed many others.   Can you show ANY improvements in these issues.

 

 

 

 

Rich people are entitled to 'free' services too as they pay higher tax rates.

 

NHS is a shambles everywhere as is infrastructure and transport.

 

Not your best post.

[lost in space]

8 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

 

Rich people are entitled to 'free' services too as they pay higher tax rates.

 

NHS is a shambles everywhere as is infrastructure and transport.

 

Not your best post.

Well off people mostly pay higher taxes - but have more "ability to pay" - so don't think they should get free allowances.

It depends how much each of us believe in socialism. If the more well off didn't get the free allowances - more funds to help the poor.

The NHS is a disaster in all parts of the UK - so what's the point of Scotland having devolved powers - since they are making no difference?

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

15 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

 

 

Rich people are entitled to 'free' services too as they pay higher tax rates.

 

NHS is a shambles everywhere as is infrastructure and transport.

 

Not your best post.

 

Amazing the amount of unionists desperate to help the poor, warms the heart so it does.

 

Who actually wants to stick with the SNP in Holyrood btw? 😆

[Australis]

Are any of these drug injection sites in Swinney or Sturgeons streets.

 

Or is it just for the plebs, to have them staggering around theirs.

 

Any posh ones anywhere?

 

[Bairnjambo]

https://www.ft.com/content/2f91806f-40e2-4c9f-bc38-6a3aeff512f4

 

FT article with an interview with former First Minister if anyone fancies a look.

 

[SwindonJambo]

4 hours ago, ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ said:

Of course, every single thing that the SNP and holyrood are being blamed for, is happening within the union.

 

Only independence can free us of this state of affairs.

And then everyone can be...

 

 

[JamboX2]

5 hours ago, OTT said:

 

 

The foreign students is undoubtedly a problem, and thats kind of what I was getting at with my final point around there being issues with any policy. I can remember being in a corporate finance lecture and I swear there was a handful (c5 by my count) of Scottish students over about 90 students. Obviously, if tuition fees were brought back, we'd end up in a similar position to England where it is a very real and very daunting problem. As things stand, Scottish students get 4 years further education, that could be at College or Uni. The colleges aren't filled with Foreign students, its almost exclusively the Uni's so it does need to be looked at. On the flip side, you can do 2 years at college and 2 years at Uni and still complete a degree with hons, so its not locked off in the way that the media I think try and spin it. 

 

So I think I'm right in saying the way "free" tuition works in Scotland is that the government pay the universities a block grant to cover the "fees" of those eligible for free tuition. That amount is set in legislation and hasn't been increased for years. A pal of mine works for a major Scottish university and has said the financial situation is increasingly dire and without foreign students the system in Scotland would be in a pretty dire place. This is why there is capping of places for Scottish students now. One thing he's increasingly saying is that the lack of financial support for living costs is a major structural barrier to poorer students. He teaches at a uni and a few of his students are working near full time jobs whilst they should be studying. Anecdotal but that's not what university education is meant to be about.

 

https://spice-spotlight.scot/2019/12/18/the-price-of-free-tuition-in-scotland/

 

The paper on university funding by SPICe (Scottish Parliament library) is very interesting on the failings of the current system and the funding gap.

 

I benefited from free tuition as well and I'm not entirely fond of the idea of removing it. However, from what I hear the funding gap is resulting in staff cuts, cuts to support staff and reductions in some of the universities' facilities. Querying how it's funded shouldn't be off the table and considering things like a graduate tax or a more focused form of free tuition should be considered.

[ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ]

2 hours ago, SwindonJambo said:

And then everyone can be...

 

 

 

All I want is a national government that gives a **** about Scotland because they can be held to account by the people of Scotland, but hey, you do you!

[Dirty Deeds]

6 hours ago, ｕｎｋｎｏｗｎｕｓｅｒ said:

 

All I want is a national government that gives a **** about Scotland because they can be held to account by the people of Scotland, but hey, you do you!

Seems a reasonable request 

[lost in space]

16 hours ago, OTT said:

 

Of course not!  But I was using an anecdote to make my point. You were talking about more affluent older people, and I was saying that a good chunk of them drive anyway (and certainly drive for too long!!) So I don't agree with the premise that loads of rich old folk are getting great use out of the bus pass. 

 

The admin costs on prescription charges is absolutely true. Alex Salmond cited it in an interview he did with Mike Graham IIRC but I appreciate "but Alex Salmond said so" isn't a convincing point, so here is an article where experts agree that it does save money  https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/health/15576253.Free_prescriptions__save_NHS_money__despite_bill_for_ageing_and_obesity/ - I have been looking for the video and its annoyingly not easy to find. One of those where that snippet is buried in a longer video and I'd need to find that first, and by christ did he do a lot of interviews over the last 18 months of his life. 

 

The foreign students is undoubtedly a problem, and thats kind of what I was getting at with my final point around there being issues with any policy. I can remember being in a corporate finance lecture and I swear there was a handful (c5 by my count) of Scottish students over about 90 students. Obviously, if tuition fees were brought back, we'd end up in a similar position to England where it is a very real and very daunting problem. As things stand, Scottish students get 4 years further education, that could be at College or Uni. The colleges aren't filled with Foreign students, its almost exclusively the Uni's so it does need to be looked at. On the flip side, you can do 2 years at college and 2 years at Uni and still complete a degree with hons, so its not locked off in the way that the media I think try and spin it. 

If you dont agree that "loads" of old rich folk use the free bus pass - get on a bus going through Corstorphine/ Blackhall/ Morningside etc every day!

 

As for Prescription Admin Costs being more than the money received - THATS JUST NOT TRUE - IS IT??   It mentions "experts" and then quotes Alex Neil.   As soon as I saw "Andrew Neil" - I knew it would be bollocks.   What he is saying is that prescription medicines stop people going into hospital (which of course is costly).  But most people would pay for the prescription to get the medicine.  He does not know how many people would not buy the prescriptions - which would stop the need to go into hospital!!

He is using mis-information to support his point.  The rest of the very poor article just uses case studies.

Very poor and lazy journalism.

OTT - I am shocked - yes, shocked 😇 - that you have shared this mis-information.  Are you a politician now?

[Hagar the Horrible]

Been off the grid for a few days, but earlier this week heard an interview with Honest John by Martin Geissler 

 

John was cleary there to get one message across, to the point its was becoming farcical  "eradicate child poverty"  he said it on every question asked, I think he said it 40 times in about 5 mins.

 

But some of the questions asked....his views on NS (Ms Defacto)now saying Indy is off the cards for now, she accepts that....Johns reply, its at the forefront to get Indy so we can eradicate child poverty.  The A9 disaster somehow got child poverery into that as the priority, The ferries now moving but nowhere near where they should be, the ports still cant even take the ferry.....he accetped it as his fault but it will all be good because he wants to eradicate child poverty.

 

Border controls with England if we undo brexit, do the same as NI and it will eradicate child poverty....ffs

 

Martin pressed him on one straight answer about Alex Salmond as DefactoNic the heroine of peoples rights, often had to  chasten Salmond on his behaviour,  So Martin pressed John did he even see this , and a squirming john did say yes but sounded like he was towing the line?

 

Anyhoo child poverty has gone back centuries, even Dickens has books on it, but somehow the SNP can eradicate it, even though they have made it worse.  The solution is to tax those with the broadest shoulders, which are people who already work and give it to those who don't.  Its not child poverty it is high unemployment, parents who smoke and drink, yet have money for that and hunners of kids.  I was struggling starting out with kids, but I put them first before holidays, pubs even going to the football.

 

Even Jesus never eradicated child poverty but John somehow can, and it will be better under Indy though, free money for all!!!!!