Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Konrad von Carstein]

5 minutes ago, SE16 3LN said:

Sorry to misinterpret your view on that. 

 

Here is what you said about me:

 

Wasting your time with that one...thinks if he calls SNP/Indy supporters Nazi's/Fascists often enough it will become fact...so dense light bends round him.

 

I never said the bit in bold but pointed out the links between Nationalism and the far right. I do believe there are extremists within the SNP and their supporters but you added Indy for effect and to try and gain some traction to your "dense" slur. I would have far less problem with an Indy movement than a Nationalist movement Einstein.

You bang on and on(and on) conflating SNP/Supporters (ergo Indy) being far right...You are incorrect, and coming over quite delicate given your posting style when aimed at us Blackshirts.

[BlueRiver]

14 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

I would really like to see the SNP make some strides towards putting clear distance between themselves and the Sturgeon era. 

 

Continuity quite simply isn't going to cut it (as Forbes said!) -  I think in the public mind a lot of this woke agenda has ran its course and people want to know why the housing market is ****ed, the cost of living continues to spiral etc. Also think that the time Sturgeon spent pissing about with talking about who gets to use what toilet could have been spent on building more support for Independence and govering competently. IIRC Salmond said yesterday that the housing investment of £80m Humza announced came from a £200m "slush fund" that the greens had insisted be set aside for public travel costs (cycling?) at a time when people have had to go through a winter quite literally choosing between heating and eating, that couldn't be a more offensive and tone deaf use of public funds. 

 

Yes, absolutely there are reasons beyond the Scottish Governments control as to why the economy is ****ed, but doing stupid shit like that is just rage inducing. I'd actually be keen to see how much money in total the Greens were able to squirel away on nonsense and waste on failed policies like the HMPA and deposit return scheme. We don't want or need a government to be reinventing the wheel, just get the basics right so life is slightly less shit!!!

 

Hard to disagree with much of this. 

[Gundermann]

8 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

libertarian?

SNP and greens?

compelled speech, restriction of free speech and the clamping down of the free speech of women is libertarian?
banning wood burners?

methinks they are having a laugh

 

Maybe the other parties are worse?

[doctor jambo]

Just now, Gundermann said:

 

Maybe the other parties are worse?

NOt doubting that.

It saddens me that parties are enslaved to ideology. 

Im struggling to align with anyone, frankly.

the literally hundreds of millions wasted on both sides of the border is an utter disgrace.

[Gundermann]

Interesting hearing John Curtice on the radio at lunchtime saying Labour would be some distance behind the SNP if a Holyrood election were held now, given polling done since he HY ditched the Greens. His own rating dipped however. 

[hughesie27]

No confidence vote in Gov to go ahead.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, BlueRiver said:

Circle the wagons boys. Circle the wagons. 

 

Nationalist simpletons. 

Certainly are in full force today . Must have wiped their tears and snotters dry after yesterday . 

30 minutes ago, pablo said:

There's definitely some serious transition going on from denial to anger in the grief stages here.

Yes the usual stages of grief . Unfortunately they are always stuck at the denial - anger part . 

21 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

libertarian?

SNP and greens?

compelled speech, restriction of free speech and the clamping down of the free speech of women is libertarian?
banning wood burners?

methinks they are having a laugh

I know . Couldn’t believe he had the brass to post that . 

[ToadKiller Dog]

Just now, hughesie27 said:

No confidence vote in Gov to go ahead.

It's just so sadwar gets a chance to say how good he is and how bad snp are .

Won't go anywhere 

[ToadKiller Dog]

13 minutes ago, Gundermann said:

Interesting hearing John Curtice on the radio at lunchtime saying Labour would be some distance behind the SNP if a Holyrood election were held now, given polling done since he HY ditched the Greens. His own rating dipped however. 

That's interesting moving back to a moderate left of centre with Swinney might get the SNP vote back in Glasgow and central belt .

I dont think Forbes would do that her popularity would be more in the old Ewing traditional 80s90s  strongholds in morayshire ,Highlands. 

[OTT]

1 minute ago, ToadKiller Dog said:

That's interesting moving back to a moderate left of centre with Swinney might get the SNP vote back in Glasgow and central belt .

I dont think Forbes would do that her popularity would be more in the old Ewing traditional 80s90s  strongholds in morayshire ,Highlands. 

 

Deputy leader perhaps? Robson offers nothing, and it could be a good way to sanitise her among folk that find her religious stuff too much. 

[il Duce McTarkin]

1 hour ago, Gundermann said:

 

I love it how Scottish 'nats' can manage to be immigration-friendly communists and neo-nazis at the same time.

 

 

Schrodinger's Nationalist.

 

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, OTT said:

 

I would really like to see the SNP make some strides towards putting clear distance between themselves and the Sturgeon era. 

 

Continuity quite simply isn't going to cut it (as Forbes said!) -  I think in the public mind a lot of this woke agenda has ran its course and people want to know why the housing market is ****ed, the cost of living continues to spiral etc. Also think that the time Sturgeon spent pissing about with talking about who gets to use what toilet could have been spent on building more support for Independence and govering competently. IIRC Salmond said yesterday that the housing investment of £80m Humza announced came from a £200m "slush fund" that the greens had insisted be set aside for public travel costs (cycling?) at a time when people have had to go through a winter quite literally choosing between heating and eating, that couldn't be a more offensive and tone deaf use of public funds. 

 

Yes, absolutely there are reasons beyond the Scottish Governments control as to why the economy is ****ed, but doing stupid shit like that is just rage inducing. I'd actually be keen to see how much money in total the Greens were able to squirel away on nonsense and waste on failed policies like the HMPA and deposit return scheme. We don't want or need a government to be reinventing the wheel, just get the basics right so life is slightly less shit!!!

 

Taking their time. Waiting till they are embarrassed at the next 2 elections.

[Korky]

If Swinney gets the leadership i wonder if he’ll resurrect his Named Person scheme?
 

 



 

[micole]

10 minutes ago, Korky said:

If Swinney gets the leadership i wonder if he’ll resurrect his Named Person scheme?
 

 



 

Well Korky can I tell you my wee granddaughter who is Downs and autistic had a named person / carer, and she was fantastic.  The support was brilliant and still is. So I disagree with your remark.

[Hagar the Horrible]

1 hour ago, hughesie27 said:

No confidence vote in Gov to go ahead.

Labour ARE pressing ahead with their VONC in the government, Its the tories that have withdrawn their VOTC on Humza

 

unless you are hearing something else?

[Nucky Thompson]

2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

I like watching the rugby team but Flower of Scotland at Murrayfield has my skin crawling I’ll be honest.

You know just about every single one of them is a wee cringer at heart. 

 

I prefer Scotland the brave myself.

Am I allowed to sing that  or is being Scottish only exclusive to Nationalists 

[BlueRiver]

Another unelected leader without asking the people will surely have wee Flynn and his lot outraged 

[Konrad von Carstein]

1 hour ago, SE16 3LN said:

More made up shit you've claimed before but with the added insult of me being delicate. You make up for your lack of knowledge with insults but have never once been able to refute my position. You really should just block me again because you look a bigger areshole every time you comment.

QED

[SE16 3LN]

1 minute ago, Konrad von Carstein said:

QED

I rest my case

[JudyJudyJudy]

20 minutes ago, micole said:

Well Korky can I tell you my wee granddaughter who is Downs and autistic had a named person / carer, and she was fantastic.  The support was brilliant and still is. So I disagree with your remark.

The issue regarding the named person scheme was that every single child would have one . It was a gross intrusion into family life / parenting . Kids with special needs have always been entitled to support from services . 

[Gundermann]

39 minutes ago, micole said:

Well Korky can I tell you my wee granddaughter who is Downs and autistic had a named person / carer, and she was fantastic.  The support was brilliant and still is. So I disagree with your remark.

 

Yes, this has existed more or less for years. It makes sense to join up different services and support young people. As a parent, I'm fine with it.

[Gundermann]

1 hour ago, ToadKiller Dog said:

That's interesting moving back to a moderate left of centre with Swinney might get the SNP vote back in Glasgow and central belt .

I dont think Forbes would do that her popularity would be more in the old Ewing traditional 80s90s  strongholds in morayshire ,Highlands. 

 

Forbes would be constantly be asked about her voting record. She may try and keep her crazy views out of her political activity but an FM who really believes that I'm gonna burn in hell for having kids outside marriage or watching football on the Sabbath never mind my gay neighbours, isn't my cup of tea.

[micole]

30 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

The issue regarding the named person scheme was that every single child would have one . It was a gross intrusion into family life / parenting . Kids with special needs have always been entitled to support from services . 

Again maybe not, we were asked did we want the support or not, my daughter was given a choice. The thing is I do understand not everyone is in the same situation as we are however I do think the intention was good, maybe handled in a kack handed way. Just my experience though.

[Mikey1874]

Swinney bringing in Forbes into Government seems to be the arrangement.

 

No election required.

Edited April 30 by Mikey1874

[hughesie27]

58 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Labour ARE pressing ahead with their VONC in the government, Its the tories that have withdrawn their VOTC on Humza

 

unless you are hearing something else?

Nope, I was referring to the Labour motion.

[Ulysses]

22 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

Why do you watch your gay neighbours?

 

On the Sabbath, as well.  Jeezo.

[milky_26]

6 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

On the Sabbath, as well.  Jeezo.

possibly a bit paranoid?

[AyrJambo]

7 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

Now that the snp have ragdolled themselves, the Nats are pulling the emotional "beautiful Scotland with the Hills and the Glens" line followed by the "we're so much better than the English" line. This is usually presented along with some shite about the yoons (The majority of Scots) being too Stupid and/or too greedy to vote Yes. It's exactly the same tactic used by Nationalists throughout history and currently by the Fascists in Govt. in Italy, holding the Balance of Power in Spain, the far right Govt's in Hungary and Poland and the close to govt. National Rally in France. 

 

It was easily predictable, happened far sooner than I expected and shows how emotional Nationalism can manipulate the Populus into anti democratic political rhetoric and choices.

 

I hope democracy in the West will prevail but I'm less confident of that than in any of my previous 50 years of Political engagement.

 

Can you provide any examples to back up your nonsense?

I have only just skimmed the last few pages but AFAIK you are the only one who has used any cliched stereotypes about the image  of Scotland

Similarly, as far as being "better than the English" goes, again you are the one who has introduced this trope into the recent debate

Scottish independence, or more accurately, the restoration of Scottish sovereignty, is not about being better than anyone, English or otherwise

It is about being a normal country rather than a subordinated partner in a forced, corrupt union

Independence is normal!

Edited April 30 by AyrJambo
spelling

[Ulysses]

17 minutes ago, milky_26 said:

possibly a bit paranoid?

 

 

[joondalupjambo]

1 hour ago, Gundermann said:

 

Forbes would be constantly be asked about her voting record. She may try and keep her crazy views out of her political activity but an FM who really believes that I'm gonna burn in hell for having kids outside marriage or watching football on the Sabbath never mind my gay neighbours, isn't my cup of tea.

Biggest concern if she got the gig would be, would we still be allowed to hang out our washing on a Sunday?

[Mikey1874]

1 hour ago, Gundermann said:

 

Forbes would be constantly be asked about her voting record. She may try and keep her crazy views out of her political activity but an FM who really believes that I'm gonna burn in hell for having kids outside marriage or watching football on the Sabbath never mind my gay neighbours, isn't my cup of tea.

 

You do know Yousef dodged the gender recognition vote. Forbes' honesty is appreciated.

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, micole said:

Again maybe not, we were asked did we want the support or not, my daughter was given a choice. The thing is I do understand not everyone is in the same situation as we are however I do think the intention was good, maybe handled in a kack handed way. Just my experience though.

The intention was to have a state sponsored person involved in families where there was zero need for it . Let parents parent , if parents need help support then it can be provided to the most in need / vulnerable . It would have been a waste of money and resources to target every child . Imo . That’s why it was ultimately canned 

[JudyJudyJudy]

58 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

Why do you watch your gay neighbours?

😀😀😀 he clearly isn’t up to scratch with the Islamic religion either 

[JudyJudyJudy]

9 minutes ago, joondalupjambo said:

Biggest concern if she got the gig would be, would we still be allowed to hang out our washing on a Sunday?

Now that would be the straw which breaks my back . 

3 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

You do know Yousef dodged the gender recognition vote. Forbes' honesty is appreciated.

Oh he knows . Conveniently ignores it . Yes she is refreshingly honest . I respect that although I disagree with some of her religious views , she has her right to a belief system . Hopefully she is in Govt as it’ll wind the creepy greens up 

[AyrJambo]

23 hours ago, AyrJambo said:

 

Are you saying that a nation can only be defined as such if it is geographically located on a single, un-interrupted land mass?

23 hours ago, H2 said:

It is the only factual undisputed definition, that differentiates it from all other Nations.

 

How do you reconcile the above with your later assertion that the the US - Canada border is somehow different from the Manitoba - Saskatchewan border when your definition of a nation is that it is solely defined by a land border?

By your definition all the countries on the American continent are surely one nation

 

17 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

So thea majority  of Scots who voted no are absolutely tragic? Really?

 

16 hours ago, AyrJambo said:

 

Whatever semantics does it for you

Next you'll be arguing that there's no difference between the Canada - US border and the Manitoba - Saskatchewan border because they all exist on the same very large island

 

 

Good post

 

 

Yes

Colonised minds, mugs who have been conned and can't see it no matter how often it is pointed out to them

 

I may have used somewhat blunt language above but my point stands

It is tragic that so many are so mentally colonised and propagandised over generations and centuries that they do not have the confidence to vote for their own country to join all the other countries in the world

 

 

[The Real Maroonblood]

12 minutes ago, AyrJambo said:

 

How do you reconcile the above with your later assertion that the the US - Canada border is somehow different from the Manitoba - Saskatchewan border when your definition of a nation is that it is solely defined by a land border?

By your definition all the countries on the American continent are surely one nation

 

 

 

I may have used somewhat blunt language above but my point stands

It is tragic that so many are so mentally colonised and propagandised over generations and centuries that they do not have the confidence to vote for their own country to join all the other countries in the world

 

 

[OTT]

This is kind of a half thought, but if we consider where Independence is currently by age:

 

 

Obviously what we can see is that support for Independence crashes hard in the older category. The argument is effectively won with those under 35, but its when you get beyond that, particularly 50+ where it struggles to get through. Sturgeons policies were all geared at giving the younger generation what they want - it was students pushing the GRA, its young people talking about the GRA, bringing the greens into government etc. Free at the point of use further education most benefits younger people and so forth. There hasn't really been much policy building geared at winning over the elderly. 

 

If John Swinney wins, he will maintain the status quo presumably, which is just more pandering to the youth vote. Whilst important, Scotland has an aging population, and perhaps there does need to be a more conservative agenda pushed. Not outright, being a tory but less emphasis on social change and more emphasis on building a stronger economy, supporting business and ultimately protecting and growing pensions. 

 

I'm talking in super general terms. Obviously older people, like younger people hold a variety of beliefs. Key point I'm trying to make is that policy decisions under Sturgeon seemed very geared towards the younger generations, and I can't think of anything she did to actually improve the lives of the elderly. You could argue, especially with the care home deaths during covid, she actually made things significantly worse.. 

 

Forbes is further to the centre of the political spectrum, and I don't believe continuing to push further left is going to be beneficial long term to delivering Independence. I'm not talking in absolutes, there needs to be a bit of give and take, but ultimately I think the agenda has been too far in one direction. Scotland has an aging population and it seems like more work on the yes side needs to be done to help turn the tide in this age demographic. 

 

[John Findlay]

4 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

 

She's damaged goods, whatever way you look at it.

 

The options for the SNP are to adapt and change or to decline further.

At this moment in time, a lot of them are hell bent on the latter.

[OTT]

 

Sounds like Forbes will probably run! Think this is ultimately a good thing. The party needs a change in direction and leadership. I think Forbes will take a much more conciliatory approach in trying to work cross party in good faith. We'll see though!! 

 

Now watch all the questions about Forbes religion and leaks from the SNP HQ as they try and derail her.

 

Hopefully if she does win, she'll clear out as many of the snakey types as possible. Suspending Sturgeon would go a long ****ing way - although probably not in keeping with a conciliatory approach  

[Lord Montpelier]

If Forbes is the chosen one does she still need voted in at Holyrood ?

 

Can't see the greens, Labour, lib dem, Conservative backing her

[ToadKiller Dog]

Forbes is right of centre traditional SNP in the style of the Ewing dynasty era which couldn't get votes in the big cities .

She would lose votes in Glasgow, Dundee etc the SNP can't win without the city/central belt votes 

Swinney is moderate left of centre he will move them back to a more centrist position,he isnt hard left in any measure  .

More like where they were before the Greens agreement.

I left the SNP in 2000 when Swinney became leader as he in my more radical youth days seemed to centrist for me and the SSP offered more at that point to a young independent supporter from a working class background (that ended well )

 

Not sure about Swinney but he will likely stop the rot with out any great leap back up either ,a holding choice until Flynn sees his chance in a few years .

 

The Greens would work with Swinney and it would be more difficult for the labour scottish branch  if he adopts a centre moderate left position at odds with the Stammer moderate centre right position.

Edited April 30 by ToadKiller Dog

[Gizmo]

5 hours ago, SE16 3LN said:

Vent your spleen means to show your anger. Exposing the links between the Neo Nationalists in Scotland and the far right in Europe comes from a position of reason and research, not Anger.

 

Your response is child like. Keep it up and you will be able to convince yourself that the last few months in the history of Scottish Nationalism is actually a good thing.

 

 

Prove it, then. 

[Gundermann]

2 hours ago, Jim_Duncan said:

Why do you watch your gay neighbours?

 

😆

 

That's between me and my named person. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Kate Forbes ahead by 6 points ahead in a poll with the general public . Swooney ahead in internal SNP polls . If that’s not a hint to SNP then I don’t know what is . T

 

[Gundermann]

1 hour ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

You do know Yousef dodged the gender recognition vote. Forbes' honesty is appreciated.

 

Yousaf was the best of a bad bunch. In his defence though, he has a record of activism for LGBT rights. Forces hasn't AFAIK.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Gundermann said:

 

Yousaf was the best of a bad bunch. In his defence though, he has a record of activism for LGBT rights. Forces hasn't AFAIK.

😆😃aye right 

[Gizmo]

37 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Sounds like Forbes will probably run! Think this is ultimately a good thing. The party needs a change in direction and leadership. I think Forbes will take a much more conciliatory approach in trying to work cross party in good faith. We'll see though!! 

 

Now watch all the questions about Forbes religion and leaks from the SNP HQ as they try and derail her.

 

Hopefully if she does win, she'll clear out as many of the snakey types as possible. Suspending Sturgeon would go a long ****ing way - although probably not in keeping with a conciliatory approach  

The stupidity of the Murrells trying to establish a political dynasty was ridiculous. Forbes does not strike me as possessing a Machiavellian ambition, in fact if not for a slight sense of disquiet regarding her religion she is easily the best candidate. 

[OTT]

8 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

The stupidity of the Murrells trying to establish a political dynasty was ridiculous. Forbes does not strike me as possessing a Machiavellian ambition, in fact if not for a slight sense of disquiet regarding her religion she is easily the best candidate. 

 

She's the perfect candidate. Her confidence and manner of speech in that interview were confident, articulate and personable. Perfect qualities for a politician. 

 

Folk keep going on about her being right wing, but when the Murrells have dragged the party so far to the left it reminds me of this meme:  Forbes is passionate about dealing with poverty, its not exactly the hardcore right wing shill that the likes of Graham Campbell and his gang of champagne socialists would have you believe   The party needs to return closer to the centre, Forbes is still a leftie. Just, also concious that there is more than just social issues to deal with. 

 

[JudyJudyJudy]

12 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

She's the perfect candidate. Her confidence and manner of speech in that interview were confident, articulate and personable. Perfect qualities for a politician. 

 

Folk keep going on about her being right wing, but when the Murrells have dragged the party so far to the left it reminds me of this meme:  Forbes is passionate about dealing with poverty, its not exactly the hardcore right wing shill that the likes of Graham Campbell and his gang of champagne socialists would have you believe   The party needs to return closer to the centre, Forbes is still a leftie. Just, also concious that there is more than just social issues to deal with. 

 

The “ right wing “ slur has lost any impact now . It’s nothing . She is best to ignore those stating she is . Ofcourse the so called lefties like the greens want to silence and cancel her . How terribly “ not “ left wing . I’d be impressed if she won the leadership campaign but the malignant influence of the Murrel dynasty and the greens may still hold too much power . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

16 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

She's the perfect candidate. Her confidence and manner of speech in that interview were confident, articulate and personable. Perfect qualities for a politician. 

 

Folk keep going on about her being right wing, but when the Murrells have dragged the party so far to the left it reminds me of this meme:  Forbes is passionate about dealing with poverty, its not exactly the hardcore right wing shill that the likes of Graham Campbell and his gang of champagne socialists would have you believe   The party needs to return closer to the centre, Forbes is still a leftie. Just, also concious that there is more than just social issues to deal with.