Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[JamboX2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_United_Kingdom_general_election_results_in_Scotland

 

 

In response to some of the "no Tories in Scotland" debate. It's interesting to note that they do have over 400,000 UK general election votes. It's merely the case that the system prevents them from winning seats as the FPTP system ignores proportionality what so ever.

 

Compare that with the approximately 250,000 votes equalling 18 seats at Holyrood. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_elections_in_May_2011

 

My point is this, irregardless of the number of seats held at Westminster it is both facile and unrepresentative to peddle a myth that the Tories aren't welcome nor voted for in Scotland. I would never vote Tory personally. But I'm a democrat before I'm a lefty, and because of that I believe it's time all this nonsense was dampened down. They do have support, they do have a good number of representatives, more than the Greens and the SSP combined who get a lot of air time as being influential movements, and they've got a right to debate and propose policies to the people of Scotland as much as they want to.

 

Frankly I think it beneath any party to campaign on the notion that another party is less "Scottish" or claim to not chime with the electorate because they somehow don't match what scots think. The figures disprove that. The SNP were very happy to rely on Goldie and her Party in budgets through their minority years.

 

Interesting now that this debate is ongoing that instead of talking to 18 MSPs we are pointing to 1 MP, I know why that is. But surely we must consider votes cast as well here. A glaring example of a need to reform electoral systems than a Yes vote.

 

 

 

[Ulysses]

IIRC at the last Holyrood Election on JKB support for the SNP was 70% plus and they achieved less that 50%. Well off the mark.

 

Here's a link to a poll carried out on the board a couple of weeks before the 2011 election. Adjusting for undecided and not voting, the SNP were on 72%, with Labour on 14%

 

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/91592-politics-who-will-you-vote-for/page__mode__show

[ToadKiller Dog]

There is merit in the no Tories in an independent Scotland .

It feeds the strong anti Tory feeling which is the majority view .

It's a good tactic in my view .

 

Of course the Tory party would still be around after a yes vote I doubt anybody thinks they wouldn't but likely they would not be the ruling power any time soon also they would evolve to be a different Tory party .

I would imagine a move away from the out right London Home Counties Thatcherism to a more old school traditional Scottish Toryism .

I think the Tory vote would increase eventually in an independent Scotland .

Not that I would ever vote for them .

 

They made a mistake not going for Murdo Frasers idea of a more independent Scottish Tory party .

Same way as Scottish Labour what ever it does in reality and in the eyes of many can't really separate itself from it's London leadership .

[djf]

The Tories rely on FPTP to silence minority parties across the UK so I'm not going to feel any great sadness if the same system marginalises their voice north of the border.

[jambos are go!]

Here is Todays poll in Scotland on Scotland -

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-yes-vote-at-8-month-low-1-3414582

Basically

 

YES 34% No 46% Dont know 20%

 

Strip out the Dont knows

 

YES 42% No 58%

[Ulysses]

Here is Todays poll in Scotland on Scotland -

 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-yes-vote-at-8-month-low-1-3414582

Basically

 

YES 34% No 46% Dont know 20%

 

Strip out the Dont knows

 

YES 42% No 58%

 

ICM??

 

 

 

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk

 

 

[jambos are go!]

 

 

 

ICM??

 

 

Yes. This was the same organisation that had Scotland on the brink of Independence a month ago in what appears a rogue poll. Now looks like No is consistently enjoying a lead that is well into double figures.

Sent from my GT-P5110 using Tapatalk

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

.

[TheMaganator]

This is a campaign image but just shows the most recent polls

 

[systemx]

Alex Neil .Things were supposed to be different with the Nationalists.Free from Westminster type cover ups and cronyism.How does this man get away with it?

[JamboX2]

 

Alex Neil .Things were supposed to be different with the Nationalists.Free from Westminster type cover ups and cronyism.How does this man get away with it?

 

Is this in relation to the hospitals in his constituency? Or his reported plans for a leadership challenge in September?

 

If it's the former then it's really only matched by MacAskill signing off House's green light to have an increased number of armed officers on normal patrols without any parliamentary scrutiny...

[Patrick Bateman]

Here's a video about Scotland's oil wealth.

 

 

Now, given that our oil wealth was undisputedly suppressed by unionists for decades, why should they be trusted to handle it in the future? I've said this before, and I'll say it again; the reason unionists play the project fear card and focus upon hysterical 'uncertainties' is because they struggle to argue on the certainties. Scotland contributes more than it gets back, and is routinely subjected to Governments it neither elected, nor ones that are accountable to the electorate here. The overwhelming reasons I've heard for a no vote are that people genuinely and erroneously believe that Scotland would become some bankrupt, backwater pariah state, or an inbuilt, irrational, unarticulated hatred/distrust of Alex Salmond. Thankfully, and this is a point that was sneered at by some on here, the more informed a voter becomes, the more likely they are to vote yes. Many people have moved from No/Undecided to Yes. I've not met a single person who has moved from Yes to no.

[JamboInSouthsea]

Here's a video about Scotland's oil wealth.

 

 

Now, given that our oil wealth was undisputedly suppressed by unionists for decades, why should they be trusted to handle it in the future? I've said this before, and I'll say it again; the reason unionists play the project fear card and focus upon hysterical 'uncertainties' is because they struggle to argue on the certainties. Scotland contributes more than it gets back, and is routinely subjected to Governments it neither elected, nor ones that are accountable to the electorate here. The overwhelming reasons I've heard for a no vote are that people genuinely and erroneously believe that Scotland would become some bankrupt, backwater pariah state, or an inbuilt, irrational, unarticulated hatred/distrust of Alex Salmond. Thankfully, and this is a point that was sneered at by some on here, the more informed a voter becomes, the more likely they are to vote yes. Many people have moved from No/Undecided to Yes. I've not met a single person who has moved from Yes to no.

 

Very interesting video mate..to the point of disgusting as to what's happened.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I see the Herald has a story on the fact that "English" voters (i.e. English people resident in Scotland) could hold the key to the vote going Yes or No.

 

I don't question the franchise rules here but if there was a No vote would that leave any kind of nasty legacy?

[reaths17]

 

Here's a video about Scotland's oil wealth.

 

 

Now, given that our oil wealth was undisputedly suppressed by unionists for decades, why should they be trusted to handle it in the future? I've said this before, and I'll say it again; the reason unionists play the project fear card and focus upon hysterical 'uncertainties' is because they struggle to argue on the certainties. Scotland contributes more than it gets back, and is routinely subjected to Governments it neither elected, nor ones that are accountable to the electorate here. The overwhelming reasons I've heard for a no vote are that people genuinely and erroneously believe that Scotland would become some bankrupt, backwater pariah state, or an inbuilt, irrational, unarticulated hatred/distrust of Alex Salmond. Thankfully, and this is a point that was sneered at by some on here, the more informed a voter becomes, the more likely they are to vote yes. Many people have moved from No/Undecided to Yes. I've not met a single person who has moved from Yes to no.

 

hahaha, the i'm a smarter ass than you, defeated by the uneducated and havn't got a clue. lovin it, that must really stick in the throat.

 

the possibility of scotland going titsup is there and why should anybody trust salmond? not really big selling points.

[jambos are go!]

Here's Ta video about Scotland's oil wealth.

 

 

Now, given that our oil wealth was undisputedly suppressed by unionists for decades, why should they be trusted to handle it in the future? I've said this before, and I'll say it again; the reason unionists play the project fear card and focus upon hysterical 'uncertainties' is because they struggle to argue on the certainties. Scotland contributes more than it gets back, and is routinely subjected to Governments it neither elected, nor ones that are accountable to the electorate here. The overwhelming reasons I've heard for a no vote are that people genuinely and erroneously believe that Scotland would become some bankrupt, backwater pariah state, or an inbuilt, irrational, unarticulated hatred/distrust of Alex Salmond. Thankfully, and this is a point that was sneered at by some on here, the more informed a voter becomes, the more likely they are to vote yes. Many people have moved from No/Undecided to Yes. I've not met a single person who has moved from Yes to no.

Here's a video about Scotland's oil wealth.

 

 

Now, given that our oil wealth was undisputedly suppressed by unionists for decades, why should they be trusted to handle it in the future? I've said this before, and I'll say it again; the reason unionists play the project fear card and focus upon hysterical 'uncertainties' is because they struggle to argue on the certainties. Scotland contributes more than it gets back, and is routinely subjected to Governments it neither elected, nor ones that are accountable to the electorate here. The overwhelming reasons I've heard for a no vote are that people genuinely and erroneously believe that Scotland would become some bankrupt, backwater pariah state, or an inbuilt, irrational, unarticulated hatred/distrust of Alex Salmond. Thankfully, and this is a point that was sneered at by some on here, the more informed a voter becomes, the more likely they are to vote yes. Many people have moved from No/Undecided to Yes. I've not met a single person who has moved from Yes to no.

The reason Scotland will vote NO is because the Union is valued by a clear majority of Scots.Pure and Simple. As I've said before an inconvenient truth for YES supporters. IMO folk only say they dont like Salmond because its strikes a weird chord with disgruntled YES campaigners and shuts them up and they go away. Quite a learned race the Scots.

[jambos are go!]

Hard for me to dismiss the thought that on this already memorable day the penny dropped for YES supporters!!!

[djf]

I see the Herald has a story on the fact that "English" voters (i.e. English people resident in Scotland) could hold the key to the vote going Yes or No.

 

I don't question the franchise rules here but if there was a No vote would that leave any kind of nasty legacy?

 

Perhaps. It would really discredit the ability of Yes to paint themselves as progressive and not nationalist if they lowered themselves to blood and soil stuff like that though.

[The Comedian]

Here's a video about Scotland's oil wealth.

 

 

Now, given that our oil wealth was undisputedly suppressed by unionists for decades, why should they be trusted to handle it in the future? I've said this before, and I'll say it again; the reason unionists play the project fear card and focus upon hysterical 'uncertainties' is because they struggle to argue on the certainties. Scotland contributes more than it gets back, and is routinely subjected to Governments it neither elected, nor ones that are accountable to the electorate here. The overwhelming reasons I've heard for a no vote are that people genuinely and erroneously believe that Scotland would become some bankrupt, backwater pariah state, or an inbuilt, irrational, unarticulated hatred/distrust of Alex Salmond. Thankfully, and this is a point that was sneered at by some on here, the more informed a voter becomes, the more likely they are to vote yes. Many people have moved from No/Undecided to Yes. I've not met a single person who has moved from Yes to no.

 

Sadly we have a substantial number who are delighted with Westminsters handling of oil.

 

The quicker it can be wasted, the sooner we don't have a pot to piss in the better.

Hoping they pish the remaining wealth away so we can get back into Westminsters pocket and stop asking awkward questions.

[scott_jambo]

I see the Herald has a story on the fact that "English" voters (i.e. English people resident in Scotland) could hold the key to the vote going Yes or No.

 

I don't question the franchise rules here but if there was a No vote would that leave any kind of nasty legacy?

 

The referendum is for the people of Scotland, not Scottish people. If we stop English people voting then we stop Bangladeshi's/Polish/anyone with a slight tan voting too. I don't think Scotland is in the business of that kind of politics.

[reaths17]

 

 

 

Sadly we have a substantial number who are delighted with Westminsters handling of oil.

 

The quicker it can be wasted, the sooner we don't have a pot to piss in the better.

Hoping they pish the remaining wealth away so we can get back into Westminsters pocket and stop asking awkward questions.

 

maybe you should be asking, why people are happier with westminster/union than the thought of holyrood/seperation? as that option has lead from the begin right up until now, with no sign of any dramatic change.

 

personally, a mis-selling and desperate campaign lead the way and few have fallen for a scottish face to the same pisssh making any jot of a difference.

[IMA MAROON]

maybe you should be asking, why people are happier with westminster/union than the thought of holyrood/seperation? as that option has lead from the begin right up until now, with no sign of any dramatic change.

 

personally, a mis-selling and desperate campaign lead the way and few have fallen for a scottish face to the same pisssh making any jot of a difference.

 

You are not buying the "we will all be equal and everything will be fair in our new society" chat?

[reaths17]

 

 

 

You are not buying the "we will all be equal and everything will be fair in our new society" chat?

 

last i heard we would all be better off and living the utopian dream just because a scottish politician is barking the orders, i'm still amazed at this and can't wait till they wheel out this exceptional and reclusive scot.

[jack D and coke]

The reason Scotland will vote NO is because the Union is valued by a clear majority of Scots.Pure and Simple. As I've said before an inconvenient truth for YES supporters. IMO folk only say they dont like Salmond because its strikes a weird chord with disgruntled YES campaigners and shuts them up and they go away. Quite a learned race the Scots.

That's incorrect IMO. The union will remain because the scots are frightened and have believed the scare stories that we will suffer almost collapse without England propping us up, that is the truth of the matter. It's is deeply, deeply ingrained that we would be nothing and have nothing without England's money. I still hear it almost every conversation that crops up and we just don't believe in ourselves unfortunately.

 

I don't think I've ever truly believed it would happen we are a fairly timid country really. No real balls when it matters in any situation. We like to think we're hard but give us a real chance to make our way in the world and we go cowering under England's apron it's pretty embarrassing. People will invent all sorts of reasons for No when it's really theyre afraid of not having England to back is up because we believe we'd be skint. Their fans will rip the utter pish out of us when we play them towards the end of the year I'm already cringeing.

 

I think the reality of the chance we had will only sink in in maybe 5 years or so when I'm sure a lot of people will regret not taking it. A chance that probably won't come again or at least I hope not in my lifetime I couldn't stand anymore of the all the self loathing.

[reaths17]

 

 

That's incorrect IMO. The union will remain because the scots are frightened and have believed the scare stories that we will suffer almost collapse without England propping us up, that is the truth of the matter. It's is deeply, deeply ingrained that we would be nothing and have nothing without England's money. I still hear it almost every conversation that crops up and we just don't believe in ourselves unfortunately.

 

I don't think I've ever truly believed it would happen we are a fairly timid country really. No real balls when it matters in any situation. We like to think we're hard but give us a real chance to make our way in the world and we go cowering under England's apron it's pretty embarrassing. People will invent all sorts of reasons for No when it's really theyre afraid of not having England to back is up because we believe we'd be skint. Their fans will rip the utter pish out of us when we play them towards the end of the year I'm already cringeing.

 

I think the reality of the chance we had will only sink in in maybe 5 years or so when I'm sure a lot of people will regret not taking it. A chance that probably won't come again or at least I hope not in my lifetime I couldn't stand anymore of the all the self loathing.

 

where do they find all these scared shitless people, anytime theres a poll?

 

no voters are now uneducated, badly advised, havn't a clue and in hiding through terror at independence.

[jambos are go!]

That's incorrect IMO. The union will remain because the scots are frightened and have believed the scare stories that we will suffer almost collapse without England propping us up, that is the truth of the matter. It's is deeply, deeply ingrained that we would be nothing and have nothing without England's money. I still hear it almost every conversation that crops up and we just don't believe in ourselves unfortunately.

 

I don't think I've ever truly believed it would happen we are a fairly timid country really. No real balls when it matters in any situation. We like to think we're hard but give us a real chance to make our way in the world and we go cowering under England's apron it's pretty embarrassing. People will invent all sorts of reasons for No when it's really theyre afraid of not having England to back is up because we believe we'd be skint. Their fans will rip the utter pish out of us when we play them towards the end of the year I'm already cringeing.

 

I think the reality of the chance we had will only sink in in maybe 5 years or so when I'm sure a lot of people will regret not taking it. A chance that probably won't come again or at least I hope not in my lifetime I couldn't stand anymore of the all the self loathing.

 

You are entitled to your opinion but I dont agree. I think Scotland would be able to make a success of Independence. But we will do even better as part of a Union that we value. The most unfortunate thing is that we brought this referendum upon ourselves in 2010 and its a self inflicted wound that may take a generation to heal. As much the fault of Labour as the SNP.

Edited May 19, 2014 by jambos are go!

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

 

 

The referendum is for the people of Scotland, not Scottish people. If we stop English people voting then we stop Bangladeshi's/Polish/anyone with a slight tan voting too. I don't think Scotland is in the business of that kind of politics.

I entirely agree. What I'm driving at though is that the Yes campaign seem, to me at least, much more fervent in their cause, which is understandable when you are passionate about changing things. I would hope that what you say is the case. In reality I am curious about what level the arsehole count would reach.

[jack D and coke]

 

 

where do they find all these scared shitless people, anytime theres a poll?

 

no voters are now uneducated, badly advised, havn't a clue and in hiding through terror at independence.

In a nutshell, yes IMO. There are badly educated people on both sides but the real ignorance, IMO anyway, is from the people who will vote No. Truly staggering levels of ignorance and ultimately fear that The rUK will sail off into the distance rolling in cash and we'll be peppered mint. I even heard a man say Scotland couldn't have won the war. I assume he meant WW2. I wasn't aware we'd have had to fight the Nazis by ourselves.

[IMA MAROON]

There seems to be quite a few from Labour party selling out and joining the Nationalists. We should remember that.

 

We are doing it for ourselves just now. We are the UK.

[flecktimus]

I see the Herald has a story on the fact that "English" voters (i.e. English people resident in Scotland) could hold the key to the vote going Yes or No.

 

I don't question the franchise rules here but if there was a No vote would that leave any kind of nasty legacy?

 

This subject was being discussed on Pro Yes blogs yesterday as there was a article in the Sunday Times depicting Mel Gibson, Brave-heart with his face painted with a St Georges cross.

 

The feeling amongst Yes voters wasn't very positive as they felt that this could leave a nasty legacy and was not constructive to the debate by highlighting a minority in this way,especially the English.

[reaths17]

 

 

In a nutshell, yes IMO. There are badly educated people on both sides but the real ignorance, IMO anyway, is from the people who will vote No. Truly staggering levels of ignorance and ultimately fear that The rUK will sail off into the distance rolling in cash and we'll be peppered mint. I even heard a man say Scotland couldn't have won the war. I assume he meant WW2. I wasn't aware we'd have had to fight the Nazis by ourselves.

 

so as the majority of scots/no votes are a bunch of scared idiots, you want scots to run the country.

 

of course that isn't the case, it would only be the special ones you would want. now where have i heard that before and as you invoked the godwin law it seems fitting.

[jack D and coke]

 

 

so as the majority of scots/no votes are a bunch of scared idiots, you want scots to run the country.

 

of course that isn't the case, it would only be the special ones you would want. now where have i heard that before and as you invoked the godwin law it seems fitting.

Do you go around with your eyes and ears shut?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/referendum-news/referendum-poll-reveals-teenagers-fear-for-the-economy.24263838?utm_source=www.heraldscotland.com&utm_medium=RSS%2520Feed&utm_campaign=Scottish%2520News

Two seconds onto twitter and another story about fear.

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

I see the Herald has a story on the fact that "English" voters (i.e. English people resident in Scotland) could hold the key to the vote going Yes or No.

 

I don't question the franchise rules here but if there was a No vote would that leave any kind of nasty legacy?

 

I don't think so.

 

But I fear that this (false) narrative of passions going to high and overspilling to the post-referendum era has gone far enough to frame all of Scottish politics after the vote.

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

The referendum is for the people of Scotland, not Scottish people. If we stop English people voting then we stop Bangladeshi's/Polish/anyone with a slight tan voting too. I don't think Scotland is in the business of that kind of politics.

 

And I should add that this is spot on. The specific nationality of someone voting a particular way does not concern me; nor should it concern anyone.

[jambo1185]

The inference that I vote no because I am uneducated and scared is one of the most offensive things I have read on here. You must be incredibly conceited and self-important if you really believe that. And by the way, slagging off those who disagree with you is not the way to persuade others.

 

Wonder how JamboX2 feels about your assertion that he is thick.

 

Scotland can be independent. I don't want it to be.

[reaths17]

 

 

Do you go around with your eyes and ears shut?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/referendum-news/referendum-poll-reveals-teenagers-fear-for-the-economy.24263838?utm_source=www.heraldscotland.com&utm_medium=RSS%2520Feed&utm_campaign=Scottish%2520News

Two seconds onto twitter and another story about fear.

 

another story peddled by the high and mighty seperatists, who in their desire for power resort to trying to scare and intimadate the opposition by calling them stupid and living in fear. another great call in the campaign for votes.

[The Comedian]

The inference that I vote no because I am uneducated and scared is one of the most offensive things I have read on here. You must be incredibly conceited and self-important if you really believe that. And by the way, slagging off those who disagree with you is not the way to persuade others.

 

Wonder how JamboX2 feels about your assertion that he is thick.

 

Scotland can be independent. I don't want it to be.

 

It must boggle the mind then that Better Together have went down the peril and doom route to keep us in the Union.

[pablo]

It's not fear that's the issue, is it? One side thinks the other is paralysed by fear, and the other thinks it's keeping them safe. I think the project fear idea is nothing more than an attempt by Yes to goad No. Not a particularly effective one either.

Edited May 19, 2014 by pablo

[jack D and coke]

The inference that I vote no because I am uneducated and scared is one of the most offensive things I have read on here. You must be incredibly conceited and self-important if you really believe that. And by the way, slagging off those who disagree with you is not the way to persuade others.

 

Wonder how JamboX2 feels about your assertion that he is thick.

 

Scotland can be independent. I don't want it to be.

Don't know if that's aimed at me but I'll answer it anyway. First of all your very touchy if that's the most offensive thing you've ever read on here and the conceited and self important line is one that unionist trot out all the time mainly aimed at Salmond and nationalists. Fwiw Salmond does my head in these days but it's not about him anymore than it's about David Cameron. I certainly never insinuated I thought anybody was thick but there's something about a Scot who takes glee in some view that we aren't capable of doing this that frustrates me enormously. What is the matter with them? I'll never work that out tbh. And your last point is one that I'm hearing everywhere now, since it's clear most of the doom and gloom stories are basically bunkum unionists have stopped trying to suggest we're screwed if we go it alone despite that being their underlying reason and belief. It's all this "I believe Scotland could be independent but I don't want it to be". I just don't particularly believe that tbh but they have little real arguments to back up their claims so it's this line we're getting now. It's fair enough I suppose we're all entitled to our opinions but I just don't wear it personally.

[Ulysses]

It's all this "I believe Scotland could be independent but I don't want it to be". I just don't particularly believe that tbh but they have little real arguments to back up their claims so it's this line we're getting now.

 

They aren't making any claims, so they don't need to back anything up. They're stating how they feel about the issue. They don't want the UK to be changed by Scotland leaving it. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with that view, and people are entitled to hold it just as they are entitled to believe that Scotland should be independent of and separate from the UK.

 

By the way, I haven't noticed you peddling the line that No voters are dumber or less informed than Yes voters, so I don't think it was you that j1185 had in mind. But the line has been peddled - and it is a clear sign of what is wrong with the debate. People are not daft or ill-informed because they want to vote No, or Yes for that matter.

 

[reaths17]

 

 

Don't know if that's aimed at me but I'll answer it anyway. First of all your very touchy if that's the most offensive thing you've ever read on here and the conceited and self important line is one that unionist trot out all the time mainly aimed at Salmond and nationalists. Fwiw Salmond does my head in these days but it's not about him anymore than it's about David Cameron. I certainly never insinuated I thought anybody was thick but there's something about a Scot who takes glee in some view that we aren't capable of doing this that frustrates me enormously. What is the matter with them? I'll never work that out tbh. And your last point is one that I'm hearing everywhere now, since it's clear most of the doom and gloom stories are basically bunkum unionists have stopped trying to suggest we're screwed if we go it alone despite that being their underlying reason and belief. It's all this "I believe Scotland could be independent but I don't want it to be". I just don't particularly believe that tbh but they have little real arguments to back up their claims so it's this line we're getting now. It's fair enough I suppose we're all entitled to our opinions but I just don't wear it personally.

 

this from a side who have nowt more than a face change and lotsa wishful thinking. you may choose to not believe anyone has a differing opinion than you on this but as polls show time and again the majority see you [modedit]

 

[jambo1185]

Jack I spelt out my views weeks ago abouy the fear issue as did others. I also felt the no campaign was too negative.

 

This thread ia going round in circles enough as it is without me repeating everything.

 

And I wasn't really targeing you but effectively saying "you are only voting no because you are stupid and not enlightened like me" as some havr is hugely offensive. A suggestion that the yes side ia the side of the sensible and educated is hugely conceited - its saying that the people who vote no are beneath those who vote yes. Completely preposterous.

[systemx]

 

 

 

 

Is this in relation to the hospitals in his constituency? Or his reported plans for a leadership challenge in September?

 

If it's the former then it's really only matched by MacAskill signing off House's green light to have an increased number of armed officers on normal patrols without any parliamentary scrutiny...

Monklamds Hospital.The previous Minister(Ms Sturgeon) had agreed the closure of two wards.Neil gets the Gig and because its in his constituency comes under pressure to keep said wards open.Gets his staff to pass on an order to keep them open and then in the afternoon goes to parliament announces that because he is health secy. and constituency MSP he will have nothing to do with any decisions regarding the hospital and hands over all dealings to his deputy.Caught with his troosers doon.But nothing is to get in the way of the great cause so the hated Westminster style corruption and cronyism comes into play.Wouldnt look to good for the cause if the truth were admitted and Neil had to go.Cowards.

 

[JamboX2]

 

 

 

Monklamds Hospital.The previous Minister(Ms Sturgeon) had agreed the closure of two wards.Neil gets the Gig and because its in his constituency comes under pressure to keep said wards open.Gets his staff to pass on an order to keep them open and then in the afternoon goes to parliament announces that because he is health secy. and constituency MSP he will have nothing to do with any decisions regarding the hospital and hands over all dealings to his deputy.Caught with his troosers doon.But nothing is to get in the way of the great cause so the hated Westminster style corruption and cronyism comes into play.Wouldnt look to good for the cause if the truth were admitted and Neil had to go.Cowards.

 

Totally agree he's been caught out. However, Labours dealing of this at FMQs left much to be desired, it was right to query his judgement, and position.

 

The SNP will sack no minister before September 18th. That much is clear from the handling of Kenny MacAskill. However, both Neil and MacAskill have been caught red handed in recent months at failing to be straight with parliament and in how they've handled their portfolios. Instead of giving Shona Robinson and Angela Constance token roles in cabinet (and they are that when you assess their roles in relation to what they controlled previously) it would've been expedient to put the two dinosaurs of the SNP front bench out to pasture on the backbenches and replace them with Robinson and Constance. IMO of course.

 

It shows the SNP have inherited Labours old complacency of government, although Jack did shuffle the deck more than Eck but for more reasons of party politics than ministerial competency.

 

Since I've grown up really only knowing hung parliament and coalition in Scotland I think it imperative we return to those days after 2016 irregardless of yes/no. Government needs to be held to account by parliament. A no confidence vote will fail on any current minister and that's wrong.

 

Interesting to see if this issue with Neil and MacAskill's utterly appalling handling of corroboration and his now growing issue of armed police officers becoming the norm without parliament so much as having a chat about it, have any impact on the polls relating to independence. IMO they shouldn't. But Salmond showing too much loyalty or a lack of grit to sack those who have done wrong may prove to be an error of judgement which affects an already shakey poll position.

 

 

[jambos are go!]

That's incorrect IMO. The union will remain because the scots are frightened and have believed the scare stories that we will suffer almost collapse without England propping us up, that is the truth of the matter. It's is deeply, deeply ingrained that we would be nothing and have nothing without England's money. I still hear it almost every conversation that crops up and we just don't believe in ourselves unfortunately.

 

I don't think I've ever truly believed it would happen we are a fairly timid country really. No real balls when it matters in any situation. We like to think we're hard but give us a real chance to make our way in the world and we go cowering under England's apron it's pretty embarrassing. People will invent all sorts of reasons for No when it's really theyre afraid of not having England to back is up because we believe we'd be skint. Their fans will rip the utter pish out of us when we play them towards the end of the year I'm already cringeing.

 

I think the reality of the chance we had will only sink in in maybe 5 years or so when I'm sure a lot of people will regret not taking it. A chance that probably won't come again or at least I hope not in my lifetime I couldn't stand anymore of the all the self loathing.

You seem to have come a long way since you said this on here in February:-

 

'I'm not on the opposite side from you at all. I'm undecided and 100% hand on my heart I don't know which way I will vote.'

[GrimUpNorth]

Don't know if that's aimed at me but I'll answer it anyway. First of all your very touchy if that's the most offensive thing you've ever read on here and the conceited and self important line is one that unionist trot out all the time mainly aimed at Salmond and nationalists. Fwiw Salmond does my head in these days but it's not about him anymore than it's about David Cameron. I certainly never insinuated I thought anybody was thick but there's something about a Scot who takes glee in some view that we aren't capable of doing this that frustrates me enormously. What is the matter with them? I'll never work that out tbh. And your last point is one that I'm hearing everywhere now, since it's clear most of the doom and gloom stories are basically bunkum unionists have stopped trying to suggest we're screwed if we go it alone despite that being their underlying reason and belief. It's all this "I believe Scotland could be independent but I don't want it to be". I just don't particularly believe that tbh but they have little real arguments to back up their claims so it's this line we're getting now. It's fair enough I suppose we're all entitled to our opinions but I just don't wear it personally.

 

nobody said we can't be independent. People have issues, and questions, with what's in the white paper.

 

Your initial post further up says far more about you than any No voter.

 

And as for what football fans might sing. Good god.

[jack D and coke]

 

nobody said we can't be independent. People have issues, and questions, with what's in the white paper.

 

Your initial post further up says far more about you than any No voter.

 

And as for what football fans might sing. Good god.

It's not about what football fans will sing, we will be mocked by the English forevermore and rightly so. I've spent a good few years living and working down south and we're well known for being moaning face b*stards. Not necessarily me personally but the scots have this greeting faced persona always moaning about our lot and yet when the chance presents itself we hide and say it's not what we really wanted anyway. The saying fur coat and nae knickers springs to mind.

[Gizmo]

hahaha, the i'm a smarter ass than you, defeated by the uneducated and havn't got a clue. lovin it, that must really stick in the throat.

 

the possibility of scotland going titsup is there and why should anybody trust salmond? not really big selling points.

 

When even BT are not claiming anything of the sort re Scotland going "titsup" perhaps it's time you actually backed up one of your points? You appear to take an almost perverse pleasure in rebutting anything posted by a pro-Independence poster (odd for someone who claims not to care either way) yet you have never advanced any arguments whatsoever, nor do you ever engage or reply when someone takes the time to respond to you.

 

The credit rating agencies see Scotland as a likely AAA rating with a strong economy in the event of independence, even the likes of Darling and Cameron now grudgingly concede we would easily manage as an independent country.

 

Also various statistics on poverty, happiness, education, health and other key UN developmental factors all consistently point to smaller countries doing better, and being rated as better places to live.

 

Perhaps you could tell us why you believe, rather uniquely, that Scotland could not also become a very successful small country with a strong economy and a fair, equal society that values and puts it's people first?

[JamboX2]

 

 

 

When even BT are not claiming anything of the sort re Scotland going "titsup" perhaps it's time you actually backed up one of your points? You appear to take an almost perverse pleasure in rebutting anything posted by a pro-Independence poster (odd for someone who claims not to care either way) yet you have never advanced any arguments whatsoever, nor do you ever engage or reply when someone takes the time to respond to you.

 

The credit rating agencies see Scotland as a likely AAA rating with a strong economy in the event of independence, even the likes of Darling and Cameron now grudgingly concede we would easily manage as an independent country.

 

Also various statistics on poverty, happiness, education, health and other key UN developmental factors all consistently point to smaller countries doing better, and being rated as better places to live.

 

Perhaps you could tell us why you believe, rather uniquely, that Scotland could not also become a very successful small country with a strong economy and a fair, equal society that values and puts it's people first?

 

Rightly or wrongly I think there is still a sense of solidarity with the wider UK and it's people in Scotland. This does not lend itself to nationalistic opinions - more scots feel Scottish than British these days and some not British at all. Yet the solidarity and bond across the isles from scots remains strong enough to keep polls facing no.

 

I think yes knows this to be an issue but even the currency, economic and cultural union stuff isn't breaking through that barrier of opinion.

 

Just a personal view. No real statistical proof to show this, but I feel it is true of many scots.

[curriehearts]

Rightly or wrongly I think there is still a sense of solidarity with the wider UK and it's people in Scotland. This does not lend itself to nationalistic opinions - more scots feel Scottish than British these days and some not British at all. Yet the solidarity and bond across the isles from scots remains strong enough to keep polls facing no.

 

I think yes knows this to be an issue but even the currency, economic and cultural union stuff isn't breaking through that barrier of opinion.

 

Just a personal view. No real statistical proof to show this, but I feel it is true of many scots.

 

I think this too. I have family and close friends in the No camp who I totally respect and they know the UK isn't working anywhere near to what they can justify as a compelling case for it. But they can't bring themselves to vote Yes. When then asked for what their proposals are to fix the bits that are broken, not much is ever proposed.

I will obviously keep promoting the case for a Yes to them......