TheMaganator Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 I don't like the mans politics but Galloway is spot on on a number of levels here: http://socialistunity.com/galloway-punctures-arguments-scottish-independence/#comments Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19/5HMFC12 Posted February 6, 2014 Share Posted February 6, 2014 Things are not going to change in any way if we stay in the as part of the UK. The UK will still be run buy upper class posh twats who care about nothing more than their own personal interests and back pocket. Independence is a chance for a fresh start and to get away from a corrupt Westminster government. If anyone thinks that we are too small a country to survive then just take a look at Denmark, Belgium, The Netherlands and even Luxembourg. They're all doing pretty well. We have the resources and services in this country to provide national income. Will the oil run out? Yes, of course. Although with independence the majority of that oil money will go directly to Scotland and not the UK. So instead of being split among 65,000,000 people it would be split among around 5,500,000 people. I will definitely be voting YES! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Cameron, apparently, is making an appeal to the rest of the UK to show Scotland how much it is wanted. Undoubtedly, in a border poll in Northern Ireland, he would do exactly the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coconut doug Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 It is possible now as you say. Misquoted again, I don't think it is possible, that was my point. But that large start up cost is incurred irregardless of the constitutional position. A quick way to solve that is devolution of income taxation We dont have control over income tax and NI thats why it can't be done. Under the present arrangements Scotland receives no money back for their investment. All tax receipts go to westminster. Makes it unsustainable. - which is where the SNP say most of the return on this will be accrued (that and NI). That is actually being proposed now by Unionists, if not official policy in Labour yet, it is emerging as such for the Liberals and the Tories. However (and I back the principle and policy) it's not a transformative policy in terms of impact. The scale of the proposals makes both the policy and the impact transformational. The scale of the reforms is the main reason it cant be done under the present arrangements as you suggest. Ed Miliband has said that he wants this in England and will move gradually in it's implementation. Is that not transformative as well? It's not been heralded as much as the Scots politicos have Salmond's proposals. It's party policy, policy shared by Labour and the Liberals. It's not new, innnovative or transformative. Nor do we need independence to fulfill it. Devolution will change and adapt and be empowered if we vote No. It's the trend. This can be done either way and doesn't depend on independence. Not the slightest chance IMO. Barnett will go and make it even more unaffordable for Scotland. The policy has highly speculative and optimistic outcomes which will be rejected in favour of more immediate priorities. RUK voters will be even more resentful of our perceived freebies at their expense if it did happen. If this policy is so popular across the UK why has no money for its implementation been given by Westminster? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 You do realise you can multi quote coconut? Your posts are excruciating to read! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coconut doug Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Sorry. I'll try to work it out and do a bit better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GhostHunter Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Just a quick question on the citizenship part of the bluepaper - most likely twee in nature, but I don't care. Given that a lot of our national football and rugby teams, play for us either due to residency or, by grandparental rights, I note that Salmond has said that these people would need to "register citizenship", implying that they won't automatically be deemed Scottish. So, initially, we could be looking at a short period whereby the national teams, are 100% Scottish by birthright ? Oh, and one other thing, how exactly can the SNP return the Royal Mail to public ownership in Scotland ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I P Knightley Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Why is that? Salmond won't let me vote because he's a cynical opportunist. I'd vote no because I believe it would go tits up. I haven't seen a convincing argument that Scotland has a strong economic independent future. And if we vote aye and it goes barry? I'd be very happy for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Just a quick question on the citizenship part of the bluepaper - most likely twee in nature, but I don't care. Given that a lot of our national football and rugby teams, play for us either due to residency or, by grandparental rights, I note that Salmond has said that these people would need to "register citizenship", implying that they won't automatically be deemed Scottish. So, initially, we could be looking at a short period whereby the national teams, are 100% Scottish by birthright ? Oh, and one other thing, how exactly can the SNP return the Royal Mail to public ownership in Scotland ? The citizenship issue will be mess. You've got to assume many no voters will want to keep their British passport so c40% of the people living here could be citizens of a foreign country. I've no idea about the sports team issue but it is an interesting one. I don't think they can nationalise the RM in Scotland. I'd be interested to hear how they plan to. The SNP tend to assert first & then on occasion ask questions later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 The citizenship issue will be mess. You've got to assume many no voters will want to keep their British passport so c40% of the people living here could be citizens of a foreign country. I've no idea about the sports team issue but it is an interesting one. I don't think they can nationalise the RM in Scotland. I'd be interested to hear how they plan to. The SNP tend to assert first & then on occasion ask questions later Dual nationality is no big deal. I have it. As for Royal Mail, there could easily be a Scottish Postal service set up. Getting hold of the post boxes might be interesting though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Cameron, apparently, is making an appeal to the rest of the UK to show Scotland how much it is wanted. Undoubtedly, in a border poll in Northern Ireland, he would do exactly the same thing. Copying the Canadian "We Love Quebec" rallies. Be interesting to see how detrimental it'll be for a No vote. Reckon Yes will end up winning (something I've thought pre-White Paper). These stunts may do more damage than good. Probably be as cringeworthy as the Yes event with the celebs all those months ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMac Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Copying the Canadian "We Love Quebec" rallies. Be interesting to see how detrimental it'll be for a No vote. Reckon Yes will end up winning (something I've thought pre-White Paper). These stunts may do more damage than good. Probably be as cringeworthy as the Yes event with the celebs all those months ago. Worked in Canada. Scots need to realize that there isn't much difference between the average Scot and average English. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Things are not going to change in any way if we stay in the as part of the UK. The UK will still be run buy upper class posh twats who care about nothing more than their own personal interests and back pocket. Independence is a chance for a fresh start and to get away from a corrupt Westminster government. If anyone thinks that we are too small a country to survive then just take a look at Denmark, Belgium, The Netherlands and even Luxembourg. They're all doing pretty well. We have the resources and services in this country to provide national income. Will the oil run out? Yes, of course. Although with independence the majority of that oil money will go directly to Scotland and not the UK. So instead of being split among 65,000,000 people it would be split among around 5,500,000 people. I will definitely be voting YES! Take Scotland has no "posh" wealthy folk who'd be as likely to attain high offices as the current UK government? Think there's less privately educated Scots Tory front benchers than the number of them in the SNP Government. This is symptomatic of a view Scotlamd has a homogenous, horizontal Nordic society. We don't. Sooner we realise that we could probably formulate policies to make us more equal with Land reform to break up the landed estates and targeting benefits better to reduce inequalities. Despite free personal care, free tuition, bus passes and the like we are still a hugely unequal place by world, European and British standards. The SNP's "we're aw Scots the same" rhetoric hides that fact. Edited February 7, 2014 by JamboX2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Worked in Canada. Scots need to realize that there isn't much difference between the average Scot and average English. I totally agree. A lot of my posts attempt to say that very thing. I don't know enough about Canadian politics but Cameron isn't an electable brand in Scotland for many and he isn't alk that popular. As I say I don't know enough about the Quebec/Canada issue but Cameron may bot be the best figure for this. Out of interest do you know who fronted the Canadian/Quebec events? Also did the sitting Canadian PM debate the Premier? I assume IMac that you live in Canada lr did around then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamboX2 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Apologies for spelling and grammar using my phone atm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphonseCapone Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Worked in Canada. Scots need to realize that there isn't much difference between the average Scot and average English. There isn't much difference between the average American and the average Brit, should we become the 51st state? Let's be honest, people are people regardless of where they come from, this referendum isn't about us being similar or different from English people, it's about self-determination. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 FYI: http://m.stv.tv/news/east-central/263211-edinburgh-ranked-top-of-foreign-direct-investment-magazine-awards/ Scotland's capital comes top of European business poll for third year "The city's strategy for attracting foreign direct investment has also been ranked the best of any mid-sized European city." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 We'll no longer be British, we'll no longer have that bond or be part of that state - it will be a foreign country ( a foreign country that controls our fiscal policy, but that's another debate). So, for some, your identity will change. I'm not being a dick by the way, I genuinely want to try and understand how others feel about this part of it because I don't really get where the fuss is coming from. We live on this tiny wee island squished up against each other so I really don't see how we won't still have a bond. And a pretty strong one at that. Both emotional and practical bonds too. We'll cooperate almost just as much as we do today, we can't not cooperate. It could never seem foreign to me, I know it too well. An independent Scotland would still be part of Great Britain, it's a geographical term rather than a political or administrative one. Plus we'd still have British passports if we wanted them. I'd still be Scottish and I'd still share an island with the English and Welsh with the Northern Irish just the same distance across the water as they were before. I can't help but think it's built up to be some massive change when in actual fact, it would feel exactly the same as it does now. We've had history together for a lot longer than the last couple of hundred years of the Union and we'll have a lot more to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I'm not being a dick by the way, I genuinely want to try and understand how others feel about this part of it because I don't really get where the fuss is coming from. We live on this tiny wee island squished up against each other so I really don't see how we won't still have a bond. And a pretty strong one at that. Both emotional and practical bonds too. We'll cooperate almost just as much as we do today, we can't not cooperate. It could never seem foreign to me, I know it too well. An independent Scotland would still be part of Great Britain, it's a geographical term rather than a political or administrative one. Plus we'd still have British passports if we wanted them. I'd still be Scottish and I'd still share an island with the English and Welsh with the Northern Irish just the same distance across the water as they were before. I can't help but think it's built up to be some massive change when in actual fact, it would feel exactly the same as it does now. We've had history together for a lot longer than the last couple of hundred years of the Union and we'll have a lot more to come. Why do you want it to be the same though? Isn't one of the great irritations of being British being labelled "English" when you are abroad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flecktimus Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Dip your bread http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/controversial-kelvin-mackenzie-blasted-over-1082084 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2424713/Scots-MUST-vote-independence-Itll-save-rest-fortune-says-SIMON-HEFFER.html Two nutters who have influence with the rest of the uk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Dip your bread http://www.dailyreco...ed-over-1082084 http://www.dailymail...MON-HEFFER.html Two nutters who have influence with the rest of the uk. Good trolling. Serious point I've never understood though. If some English voices say "on you go" it seems to upset some Scots for some reason. Anyone care to explain why? Edited February 7, 2014 by Geoff Kilpatrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Why do you want it to be the same though? Isn't one of the great irritations of being British being labelled "English" when you are abroad? I want the changes that come with political independence, the rest of it is something that just happens anyway whether we like it or not. I have no strong feelings on it simply because I don't believe it will change all that much at all. If Scotland does become independent and takes on a more prominent role in the world then I like to think we'll end up being recognised more widely for that in some way. If this recognition extends to foreigners asking us if we're Scottish first rather than English then great. But to be honest I've found that I'm just as likely to be asked if I'm Irish as anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I want the changes that come with political independence, the rest of it is something that just happens anyway whether we like it or not. I have no strong feelings on it simply because I don't believe it will change all that much at all. If Scotland does become independent and takes on a more prominent role in the world then I like to think we'll end up being recognised more widely for that in some way. If this recognition extends to foreigners asking us if we're Scottish first rather than English then great. But to be honest I've found that I'm just as likely to be asked if I'm Irish as anything else. That's what I mean though. The fact that Scotland will have its own defence force and its own embassies immediately make Scotland's position different. It also makes Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK different (this may be good different or bad different, but it will be different). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flecktimus Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Good trolling. Serious point I've never understood though. If some English voices say "on you go it seems to upset some Scots for some reason. Anyone care to explain why? As someone who listened to that kind of talk for 30yrs it doesn't bother me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Serious point I've never understood though. If some English voices say "on you go it seems to upset some Scots for some reason. Anyone care to explain why? Maybe it's the Better Together Scots that it upsets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Good trolling. Serious point I've never understood though. If some English voices say "on you go" it seems to upset some Scots for some reason. Anyone care to explain why? Re the Heffer article...I genuinely believe that if/when Scotland becomes independent, the right-wing subsidy junkie smears about Scotland will be proven to be a tissue of lies and leave rUK in a worse off position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Maybe it's the Better Together Scots that it upsets? From what I read it seems to be the cybernats. Kelvin Gotcha and Hefferlump are wastes of oxygen, yet Hefferlump seems to have over 700 comments to his article. Top clickbait with Cybernats pouring in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flecktimus Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Maybe it's the Better Together Scots that it upsets? Boris as someone who was attracted to Devo max and now leaning towards yes, would you move back to devo max if it was put back into the debate? Edited February 7, 2014 by flecktimus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Boris as someone who was attracted to Devo max and now leaning towards yes, would you move back to devo max if it was put back into the debate? No. I'm all in for Independence now. The only thing that would make me think twice would be a full federalisation of the entire UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I'd imagine it's more the "junkies, scroungers and alkies" narrative that offends people than saying "on you go". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flecktimus Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 No. I'm all in for Independence now. The only thing that would make me think twice would be a full federalisation of the entire UK. Since a very young age i have been in favour of independence but when devo max was mooted i changed my view and was willing to back devo max against independence. But the same as you i am back to independence and wouldn't look at devo max now. I am afraid i don't know much about federalisation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Kilpatrick Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I'd imagine it's more the "junkies, scroungers and alkies" narrative that offends people than saying "on you go". I suppose if you are not Glaswegian that would offend... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Different Class Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 If this doesn't motivate you to get out nothing will. [lots of badwords] https://t.co/x4HiAU8aZI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boaby Ewing Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I find myself slipping into the 'why the **** not?' camp. I don't see much on offer from the union side. It's a once-in-a-generation opportunity to run our own affairs. I don't see why we'd turn that down. It's not going to be seamless, it's not going to create a land of milk and honey, but I don't buy the argument that the we're going to turn into an economic basketcase, even stripping oil out of the equation. I don't get a vote on it, but there you go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I find myself slipping into the 'why the **** not?' camp. I don't see much on offer from the union side. It's a once-in-a-generation opportunity to run our own affairs. I don't see why we'd turn that down. It's not going to be seamless, it's not going to create a land of milk and honey, but I don't buy the argument that the we're going to turn into an economic basketcase, even stripping oil out of the equation. I don't get a vote on it, but there you go. Well put! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pablo Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) Good trolling. Serious point I've never understood though. If some English voices say "on you go" it seems to upset some Scots for some reason. Anyone care to explain why? I don't think Independence itself is enough for the Nationalists, they also want to be missed. The fundamentalists believe that the Scots hold different values and beliefs to the English and want a sly kick on the way out. That most English people only shrug and say good luck winds them up no end. Edited February 7, 2014 by pablo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
19/5HMFC12 Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Take Scotland has no "posh" wealthy folk who'd be as likely to attain high offices as the current UK government? Think there's less privately educated Scots Tory front benchers than the number of them in the SNP Government. This is symptomatic of a view Scotlamd has a homogenous, horizontal Nordic society. We don't. Sooner we realise that we could probably formulate policies to make us more equal with Land reform to break up the landed estates and targeting benefits better to reduce inequalities. Despite free personal care, free tuition, bus passes and the like we are still a hugely unequal place by world, European and British standards. The SNP's "we're aw Scots the same" rhetoric hides that fact. Yes, of course there are posh people like that in Scotland but it doesn't mean people would have to vote for them. Votes from Scotland count for very little in elections. Scottish votes have no say on who's in charge of the country. In an independent Scotland we would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leginten Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I find myself slipping into the 'why the **** not?' camp. As an option, it certainly would have brightened up the ballot paper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack D and coke Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 I find myself slipping into the 'why the **** not?' camp. I don't see much on offer from the union side. It's a once-in-a-generation opportunity to run our own affairs. I don't see why we'd turn that down. It's not going to be seamless, it's not going to create a land of milk and honey, but I don't buy the argument that the we're going to turn into an economic basketcase, even stripping oil out of the equation. I don't get a vote on it, but there you go. Aye well said mate. I always feel that unionists seem to suggest that scots down south or abroad are all massively against it and are staunch No voters. I think scots everywhere will be in opposite but equal camps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMaganator Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/scottish-independence-referendum Historical polling data on the question. Interesting - not much is changing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgiewave Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 http://ukpollingrepo...ence-referendum Historical polling data on the question. Interesting - not much is changing Relieving stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djf Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/tory-s-hadrian-s-wall-pro-union-torch-protest-plan-1-3296462 Well this should be interesting... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheiky Baby Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 http://www.scotsman....-plan-1-3296462 Well this should be interesting... Aye that'll work Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Draper Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 http://www.scotsman....-plan-1-3296462 Well this should be interesting... It's like he thinks Scotland will actually leave, and sail away from the rest of the island. You can visit, man, you can visit all you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 That's what I mean though. The fact that Scotland will have its own defence force and its own embassies immediately make Scotland's position different. It also makes Scotland's relationship with the rest of the UK different (this may be good different or bad different, but it will be different). Ah, but will it? Again, we live on a tiny wee island. The idea that we won't cooperate very closely on defence issues is a bit unlikely imo. A weak spot affects them almost as much as it affects us and vice versa. They won't want that, either will we. Common sense will apply. Having our own embassies (or even just our own representation, many countries share embassies as far as I'm aware, UK included) would only be a good thing as far as I can tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redm Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Boris as someone who was attracted to Devo max and now leaning towards yes, would you move back to devo max if it was put back into the debate? No. I'm all in for Independence now. The only thing that would make me think twice would be a full federalisation of the entire UK. If it's the only option we're left with after a No vote then I'd take what we could get, but that's the only circumstance in which I'd go for devo max. We're in a situation where Westminster can revoke or amend our devolved powers at any time and as they see fit. That's not something I'm comfortable with at all. I can't quote a source for this and I'll try to find one but I read something recently about key EU reforms in planning which may impact on and possibly restrict the fiscal powers which can be devolved anyway. Not the ruling made a year or two ago, new plans. Sorry, sketchy. I only mention it now in case someone else can fill in the blanks for me.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2NaFish Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) http://www.scotsman....-plan-1-3296462 Well this should be interesting... The chap wants to form a human border by having everyone holding hands WHILST also holding torches? I appreciate the effort from our 3 armed brothers across the border, i really do, but i just think they'll struggle. Edited February 7, 2014 by 2NaFish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GhostHunter Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 How I see an independent Stoneybridge Scotland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTsvLjAzozE How I see an independent Stoneybridge Scotland Granted, the "Bowling Club" committee mentality seems to spring to mind when thinking of Scottish organisations (SPFL/SFA for example!) However, I don't think that Holyrood has done anything to perpetuate that sense. If anything, a newly independent parliament wouldn't have the stench of fraud and deceit associated with Westminster. Yet that attitude that if it is Scotland it is somehow second rate (I know - the evidence is there! See Sportscene as exhibit A!) perhaps if we had all the responsibility the calibre of persons involved would be better and thus achieve great things? Better to try than to be subservient, which is what in effect you are saying i.e. we can't do it, best let someone else look after us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pans Jambo Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Good trolling. Serious point I've never understood though. If some English voices say "on you go" it seems to upset some Scots for some reason. Anyone care to explain why? Maybe it's like being called English when you are in America "Oh you're from England"? Not really offensive just annoying. As for "on you go" well, thanks very much dont mind if I do! A couple of Welts in those articles. I'm all for folk having their say but FFS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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