Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[Libertarian]

1 hour ago, Ulysses said:

 

What does "destroyed" mean, in electoral terms?

I think that there is every chance that the SNP could be down to single figures in terms of MP's after the next British election 

[Libertarian]

14 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

The crux of the situation is that we have 2 floundering governments (Westminster & Holyrood). One's as useless as the other. 2 floundering economies. 2 sets of inadequate public services.   There's no merit in points scoring between the 2 of them - being only the 2nd worst is no accolade whatsoever.   One is fixated on appeasing their nutjob wing by pouring hundreds of millions of pounds into Rwanda, the other is fixated on gender & hate legislation.

 

Its an utterly depressing outlook.  THank goodness for Hearts !!

 

 

 

This is actually quite a good post. A first for Kickback!

[JudyJudyJudy]

8 minutes ago, Japan Jambo said:

It’s all true ! 

[AyrJambo]

Incidentally for those on here that invariably knee-jerk whenever a certain "blogger from Bath" is mentioned or linked on here, Wings called  out today's events on Friday!

 

https://wingsoverscotland.com/here-you-go-again/

[TallPaul]

14 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

So the super progressive Greens will only get back into bed with Swinney because he’s a soft touch, but won’t support Forbes because they don’t like her religion. Seem pretty bigoted to me.

Or because Kate doesn't believe gay people should have the same rights at heterosexuals 

[Lord Montpelier]

Just heard the skull say Humzas top achievement was dealing with the police over the Murrell scandal

 

The bar is set at an all time political low for the next clown. 

[Lone Striker]

6 minutes ago, AyrJambo said:

 

That was Sturgeon going to the UK Supreme Court in advance of bringing in legislation

An own goal

I'm suggesting the parties in Scotland who want independence put in their manifestos that they will hold a referedum if elected

If the people support that and vote for that then they hold the referendum

 

Then let the UK go to court to argue they shouldn't have held it

 

Ah ok.  But in your scenario, the Supreme Court ruling is still  relevant, and the UK Govt will doubtless use it to demonstrate the illegality of what you're suggesting as a valid course of action.   Putting the intention to hold a potentially illegal referendum in a manifesto may not be illegal in itself,  but carrying it out is likely to be.   The Electoral COmmission won't want to be seen to be breaking the law.

 

Somehow Salmond got Cameron to the table to discuss a framework and ultimately grant a referendum.  I don't know how he did it, but it worked. 

 

 

[il Duce McTarkin]

26 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Don't forget being puppets of Russia. Alba are the tories wet dream; they don't have to do much to fight for the union when they have Alba to do their dirty work for them

 

Was Salmond a Russian puppet when he was advocating the break up of the UK as FM of Scotland and leader of the SNP, or did that bit come later?

[il Duce McTarkin]

22 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

 

As an aside Beni was sitting at the players table last night at the POYA reading a bible ! He was carrying it about awe night . Quite surreal . 

 

 

Good lad, Beni.

[JudyJudyJudy]

[Lone Striker]

20 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Yep . Apparently it’s the only religion to hate on !!  
 

As an aside Beni was sitting at the players table last night at the POYA reading a bible ! He was carrying it about awe night . Quite surreal . 

   Was it one of Trump's "special" bibles ? 

[manaliveits105]

Separatists aw oor the place  - some can't now even remember who they liked or never really liked anyway - some haven't even turned up - but Indy is alive and well after Humza's resignation apparently 

Its glorious stuff 

 

Cos Humza a jolly good fellow 

Cos Humza a jolly good fellow 

Cos Humza a jolly good fellow 

and so says Douglas Ross !

 

[Dirty Deeds]

10 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

Was Salmond a Russian puppet when he was advocating the break up of the UK as FM of Scotland and leader of the SNP, or did that bit come later?

It came later when he was scrambling around for relevance and money.

 

I can understand not wanting to do a deal with Salmond, Alba and a single MSP in Ash Regan who is a loose cannon anyway.

[Hagar the Horrible]

8 minutes ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Just heard the skull say Humzas top achievement was dealing with the police over the Murrell scandal

 

The bar is set at an all time political low for the next clown. 

Another failure, he failed to suspend her, when a criminal investigation into her activity with their party, thus being able to compromise any investigation, Even if innocent she will be tainted as she was able to or have access to inside information or dispose of it.  Swinney is more of the same when we need change, I hope the Tories and Labour accept Kate, come out as being the better people.  

 

But Flynn is backing Swinney and the media are all over his supporters.  Fatblackford just on the LK show on sunday backing Humza, now backs Swinney.  All from WM where he is touting for a seat in the Lords.

 

All while Wee fat Alex is sipping champers outside Westminster looking over the Thames, thinking Karma is such a bitch she is wearing a dominatrix outfit cracking a whip in high heels.

 

4 weeks to find a replacement, and Swinney is not a replacement he just another rebadged Sturgeon.

 

Would like to hear from Kate supporters, they must have been planning for this one would think? Swinney has!

[OTT]

22 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

Or because Kate doesn't believe gay people should have the same rights at heterosexuals 

 

She's said nothing of the sort. 

[Lord Montpelier]

3 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Another failure, he failed to suspend her, when a criminal investigation into her activity with their party, thus being able to compromise any investigation, Even if innocent she will be tainted as she was able to or have access to inside information or dispose of it.  Swinney is more of the same when we need change, I hope the Tories and Labour accept Kate, come out as being the better people.  

 

But Flynn is backing Swinney and the media are all over his supporters.  Fatblackford just on the LK show on sunday backing Humza, now backs Swinney.  All from WM where he is touting for a seat in the Lords.

 

All while Wee fat Alex is sipping champers outside Westminster looking over the Thames, thinking Karma is such a bitch she is wearing a dominatrix outfit cracking a whip in high heels.

 

4 weeks to find a replacement, and Swinney is not a replacement he just another rebadged Sturgeon.

 

Would like to hear from Kate supporters, they must have been planning for this one would think? Swinney has!

Am sure I read Forbes at this point isn't interested. Wouldnt blame her if that's the case. 

[TallPaul]

3 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

She's said nothing of the sort. 

She doesn't believe they have the right to marry.

 

Ms Forbes said she would have voted against gay marriage in Scotland when it was made legal in 2014 because it clashed with her views as a member of the evangelical Free Church of Scotland that marriage should be between a man and a woman.

[doctor jambo]

26 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

Or because Kate doesn't believe gay people should have the same rights at heterosexuals 

kind of .

she has said though that her beliefs will not prevent her representing them or rolling back their rights.

lots of folk have slightly backward views.

at least hers are open to scrutiny.

though that is faint praise indeed.

we need an adult running the country

either an election to try and install one, or Forbes

[Lord Montpelier]

Personal view on Forbes.

She lacks the experience and personality to run a country... at this point. 

She may be better building that experience as leader of the opposition and in a few years time go for the big job

[OTT]

5 minutes ago, TallPaul said:

She doesn't believe they have the right to marry.

 

Ms Forbes said she would have voted against gay marriage in Scotland when it was made legal in 2014 because it clashed with her views as a member of the evangelical Free Church of Scotland that marriage should be between a man and a woman.

 

And would she remove their rights as FM ? No. Obviously not. She has her views, which follow her church. Unlike Humza that dodged the vote on gay marriage, she's been up front and honest. 

 

There isn't anything there to suggest she thinks they are deserving of less rights -marriage is basically a religious concept, she's not saying that she's against civil partnerships etc. - It is an absolute minefield to navigate, and I think it showed some of her naivity/integrity in answering that question honestly.*

 

* I am not religious, I don't care who marries who. Its a complete sideshow of an issue designed to undermine her candidacy. 

[BlueRiver]

1 hour ago, AyrJambo said:

 

That was Sturgeon going to the UK Supreme Court in advance of bringing in legislation

An own goal

I'm suggesting the parties in Scotland who want independence put in their manifestos that they will hold a referedum if elected

If the people support that and vote for that then they hold the referendum

 

Then let the UK go to court to argue they shouldn't have held it

 

 

Any Lord Advocate would have to be fully politicised to sign off on legislation allowing a referendum at Holyrood. That in itself would be incredibly concerning. 

 

Anyway, this referendum would just be boycotted by unionists across the country and disregarded. 

[BlueRiver]

29 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

Kate's the only adult in the room.

 

What's so special about her seriously? 

 

Her list of political achievements is remarkably short yet to read this board you'd get the impression we were being graced with a political titan. 

[henryheart]

3 hours ago, pablo said:

I actually feel a wee bit sorry for him. He should never have been given the positions he's had.

 

He's going to be remembered for the "white" speech and as a figure of ridicule. I don't think he's a racist and he had a point to make on diversity. But he's just a shit politician, ill-judged at best but probably just stupid. 

 

I don't feel sorry for him. He allowed himself to be nominated.

 

He wasn't even very good at the SNP's main topic; independence. I have a friend who lives in his ward and at the last Scottish election one of his helpers knocked on his door. My friend asked a few questions on the economics of independence which the door knocker couldn't answer, instead promising that Huzma would come round to speak with him. Fair play, he did, but he couldn't debate the topic at all. He left saying that he would get back with the answers; he never did. 

 

He was put in a position well above his station, which is exactly the same as will happen if Swinney replaces him. Another continuity candidate unable to think on his feet, not that bright and uninspiring to say the least. As happened when Sturgeon stood down, any SNP politician with an eye to a long lasting career in Holyrood will be keeping their head down and mouth shut; now is not the time to be an SNP First Minister.   

 

 

[BlueRiver]

Just now, Jim_Duncan said:

She's a wee bit foxy, albeit with a Shankland spam, and is surrounded by idiots. It would be hard for anyone with a triple digit IQ not to shine among that bunch of chancers, grifters and weirdos.

 

😂 shankland spam 

[H2]

5 hours ago, AyrJambo said:

 

Not  denying there are cultural differences within nations but there are also shared national characteristics which transcend those regional differences

People in Strathclyde and people in the North of Scotland (to use the regional examples you gave) all share a Scottish national identity

Yes, an identity set by a land area, not culture etc. People in Manchester and people in Aberdeen all share a British identity.

[AyrJambo]

8 minutes ago, H2 said:

Yes, an identity set by a land area, not culture etc. People in Manchester and people in Aberdeen all share a British identity.

 

Yes and people in Manchester and people in Brighton all share an English identity

Identity is complex

Your point is?

[manaliveits105]

Kate talks at 100 miles an hour in the hope that nobody actually understands what she is saying 

Flynn supporting Swinney confirms he is another of the cult not to be trusted 

[Mikey1874]

Going behind Swinney quickly says the Murrells remain in charge.

 

Oh well. Waiting for the election to change anything. 

[H2]

2 minutes ago, AyrJambo said:

 

Yes and people in Manchester and people in Brighton all share an English identity

Identity is complex

Your point is?

You cannot be serious! Go back and read again. Fact -  A nation is defined by land borders. You have conceded that culture argument demonstrates that as all nations have different cultures within, hence Nations are not defined by culture.

[AyrJambo]

1 minute ago, H2 said:

You cannot be serious! Go back and read again. Fact -  A nation is defined by land borders. You have conceded that culture argument demonstrates that as all nations have different cultures within, hence Nations are not defined by culture.

 Nations are defined by many things not just land borders

But there are land borders between the nations that make up the UK unitary state

[Korky]

22 minutes ago, BlueRiver said:

 

Anyway, this referendum would just be boycotted by unionists across the country and disregarded. 

Exactly! It’s a half-baked idea because it wouldn’t only be ignored by ‘unionists’. Only die hard separatists would come out in the cold to vote in a referendum about a referendum!

[JudyJudyJudy]

53 minutes ago, Lone Striker said:

   Was it one of Trump's "special" bibles ? 

No sure but it was a very big one ! 

[milky_26]

[AyrJambo]

Just now, Korky said:

Exactly! It’s a half-baked idea because it wouldn’t only be ignored by ‘unionists’. Only die hard separatists would come out in the cold to vote in a referendum about a referendum!

 

Not a referendum about a referendum

A referendum about the powers of the SP

[Korky]

Just now, AyrJambo said:

 

Not a referendum about a referendum

A referendum about the powers of the SP

That sounds much more exciting! They’d be banging on the doors of the polling places!
 

[BlueRiver]

4 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

No sure but it was a very big one ! 

 

What about the bible though? 

[Pasquale for King]

22 minutes ago, H2 said:

Yes, an identity set by a land area, not culture etc. People in Manchester and people in Aberdeen all share a British identity.

Geography doesn’t decide your identity, thats a personal thing and you would be hard pushed to find two folk from those two places who would agree on their specific identity. 

[Lord Montpelier]

I see popular Scottish nationalist and occasional tree hugger Patrick Harvie is back out wanting to work with the SNP with his progressive policy agenda.

 

Hopefully for the sake of our kids the SNP finally got the message that he should be nowhere near government.

[EH11_2NL]

I was diehard Labour my whole life until the tragic death of John Smith when I switched to SNP (was never going to be a Blairite) but I genuinely believe now we will slowly see the decline of the SNP. They just do not have the depth of politician to take Scotland any further forward. Sad but true. If the best we can do is Swinney then we are up jobby creek without a paddle. 

[pablo]

6 minutes ago, AyrJambo said:

 Nations are defined by many things not just land borders

But there are land borders between the nations that make up the UK unitary state

 

Yes, but they're merely symbolic. 

[H2]

4 minutes ago, AyrJambo said:

 Nations are defined by many things not just land borders

But there are land borders between the nations that make up the UK unitary state

There are land borders between cities, counties, ownership and many other things, that's just fact.
What else "defines" a Nation?, and how does it define that nation?

[Pasquale for King]

9 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

Going behind Swinney quickly says the Murrells remain in charge.

 

Oh well. Waiting for the election to change anything. 

They have been anyway, who do you think told him to act tough and ditch the Greens, freeze the council tax and reject any offer of help from Alba? He was always a patsy. 

[il Duce McTarkin]

56 minutes ago, Dirty Deeds said:

It came later when he was scrambling around for relevance and money.

 

 

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

[il Duce McTarkin]

2 minutes ago, H2 said:

There are land borders between cities, counties, ownership and many other things, that's just fact.
What else "defines" a Nation?, and how does it define that nation?

 

Haggis and blue face paint.

[Pasquale for King]

2 minutes ago, EH11_2NL said:

I was diehard Labour my whole life until the tragic death of John Smith when I switched to SNP (was never going to be a Blairite) but I genuinely believe now we will slowly see the decline of the SNP. They just do not have the depth of politician to take Scotland any further forward. Sad but true. If the best we can do is Swinney then we are up jobby creek without a paddle. 

I think their best politicians are down at Westminster, whether they actually want to settle up and come back is another matter. 

[OTT]

15 minutes ago, henryheart said:

I don't feel sorry for him. He allowed himself to be nominated.

 

He wasn't even very good at the SNP's main topic; independence. I have a friend who lives in his ward and at the last Scottish election one of his helpers knocked on his door. My friend asked a few questions on the economics of independence which the door knocker couldn't answer, instead promising that Huzma would come round to speak with him. Fair play, he did, but he couldn't debate the topic at all. He left saying that he would get back with the answers; he never did. 

 

He was put in a position well above his station, which is exactly the same as will happen if Swinney replaces him. Another continuity candidate unable to think on his feet, not that bright and uninspiring to say the least. As happened when Sturgeon stood down, any SNP politician with an eye to a long lasting career in Holyrood will be keeping their head down and mouth shut; now is not the time to be an SNP First Minister.   

 

 

 

Its really annoying that this is still an issue - in 2014 the "too wee, too poor and too stupid" argument was the crux of better togethers campaign. The "too poor" element wasn't properly addressed and it remains a big unresolved issue.  Considering the time since 2014 - we're now a decade on near enough, its wholly unacceptable that the SNP haven't been able to produce any financial information which would lend credibility to an Independent Scotland. Our GDP was £211.7 billion, our national budget is £59.7bn. There needs to be more done to understand and explain in simple terms what our economy would look like if independent, and what sort of budget we might have/ additional costs we would need to take on. 

[AyrJambo]

4 minutes ago, H2 said:

There are land borders between cities, counties, ownership and many other things, that's just fact.
What else "defines" a Nation?, and how does it define that nation?

 

6 hours ago, AyrJambo said:

 

Nations are much more than just land areas although they are  generally georaphically defined

They also encompass the shared identity, culture, history, language, institutions and character of a people

Which is why they remain the building blocks of international relations

 

Here's one I prepared earlier

[That thing you do]

19 minutes ago, AyrJambo said:

 

Yes and people in Manchester and people in Brighton all share an English identity

Identity is complex

Your point is?

Exactly. 

 

[H2]

1 minute ago, Pasquale for King said:

Geography doesn’t decide your identity, thats a personal thing and you would be hard pushed to find two folk from those two places who would agree on their specific identity. 

Your identity... wow now we are getting complex. You can live where ever you want, have what ever identity you want. You can identify as a penguin and live in Mexico if you want to, you can change your National idenity by living in some places for a very short time, and claim to be whatever nationality you based on 10 generations ago. What does identity have to do with the it? It's all gone mad!

[pablo]

1 minute ago, OTT said:

 

Its really annoying that this is still an issue - in 2014 the "too wee, too poor and too stupid" argument was the crux of better togethers campaign. The "too poor" element wasn't properly addressed and it remains a big unresolved issue.  Considering the time since 2014 - we're now a decade on near enough, its wholly unacceptable that the SNP haven't been able to produce any financial information which would lend credibility to an Independent Scotland. Our GDP was £211.7 billion, our national budget is £59.7bn. There needs to be more done to understand and explain in simple terms what our economy would look like if independent, and what sort of budget we might have/ additional costs we would need to take on. 

 

Maybe that's because there isn't any palatable evidence from their perspective?