Scottish independence and devolution superthread

[hughesie27]

SNPs problem now is that the Indy movement is so big in Scotland now that it's impossible for 1 pro Indy party to cover the political opinions of every Pro Indy constituent.

[redjambo]

Just now, OTT said:

 

I'm personally a big Salmond fan, but he does absolutely have an ego. Do think that he remains the most experienced and competent policitian in Scotland. 

 

The SNPs actions on Independence over the Sturgeon era is litered with one blunder and unforced error after another - trying to stop Brexit, Blackford being proven to be nothing but hot air, the position of accepting "now is not the time" to then becoming "no", the failed legal challenge and then dividing Scotland (and therefore the yes movement) with deeply unpopular policies like the GRA, HMPA and so on. 

 

I suppose we'd all have a bit of an ego if we were surrounded by such shite  

 

Trying to stop Brexit was a blunder?

[redjambo]

Just now, hughesie27 said:

SNPs problem now is that the Indy movement is so big in Scotland now that it's impossible for 1 pro Indy party to cover the political opinions of every Pro Indy constituent.

 

A fair point, Hughesie.

[Hagar the Horrible]

The mess Humza has made for himself un unparalleled.  The Greens are going after him because he stopped backing up their gender reform policies, but unless he come out and says so he done.

 

Ash has sent a letter to ensure that a woman is a woman, and that INDY v2.0 must be priority, then she will vote against him.

The Greens are only interested in kids and men being women

 

He has tried to sit on the fence, He has failed in every post, yet we are surprised he has failed in this one.

 

He was put in by the Murrells so nobody will look under the hood of the SNP campervan

[OTT]

4 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

on one hand the SNP became obsessed with sexual assault, and the consequences for women of unwarranted touching etc

 

then on the other hand became obsessed with removing female protections for women who had been victims of sexual violence 

 

Go figure 

 

The GRA was such a fumble its unreal. So many experienced activists were telling them this is an awful idea and they decided to listen to some confused students copying what they saw in America... 

[Hagar the Horrible]

3 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Trying to stop Brexit was a blunder?

NO, but once it was a done deal they spent time sabotaging it.  They could have tried o make it work and push for another referendum on re-joining the EU (after a trial period)

[i wish jj was my dad]

3 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

A fair point, Hughesie.

That's exactly it. They need to split into what they actually believe in. 

[Hagar the Horrible]

5 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

SNPs problem now is that the Indy movement is so big in Scotland now that it's impossible for 1 pro Indy party to cover the political opinions of every Pro Indy constituent.

Nicola maintained a broad church and help control over it well, Right up to the point when she got into bed with the greens and push through extremist policies.  When she was found out it collapsed, and Humza is no more than a puppet for Her and (Him/Them)

[doctor jambo]

3 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

The GRA was such a fumble its unreal. So many experienced activists were telling them this is an awful idea and they decided to listen to some confused students copying what they saw in America... 

it  was a massive misjudge of what people actually thought versus what they would admit .

most would say they support trans rights,

for fear of consequence 

but most think it’s a crock of shit

 

the timing with Isla Bryson was sublime.

Sturgeon being unable to say Bryson was a woman showed how utterly farcical gender self ID was.

She couldn’t even do it herself 

[OTT]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Trying to stop Brexit was a blunder?

 

Yes. 

 

Should have been characterised as Englands Brexit, position should have been clearly that this is a material change in circumstances from the future promised to Scots in 2014 for voting no, and we will be having another vote. 

 

I.e use the momentum of opposition on Brexit to force another referendum or put Independence front and centre of the 2017 general election (or 2019). So either way, voters get the opportunity to express their view. If they deny a referendum, it goes first line of the manifesto and presumably it goes legal thereafter - but rather than in Sturgeons failed legal challenge, the yes camp ideally have over 50% of voters expressing their desire for Independence, which carries weight when the brits try and stop it (as it is a clear expression of will). 

 

By trying to stop it, Sturgeon tacitly accepted it -which I think has made the whole situation impossible to extracate ourselves from. Blackford said one thing "Will not be dragged out of the EU against our will", then Sturgeons inaction/course of action effectively undermined him and left him looking like an idiot. 

[Hagar the Horrible]

Humza just cancelled a speech on Indy in Glasgow this lunchtime

[redjambo]

1 minute ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

NO, but once it was a done deal they spent time sabotaging it.  They could have tried o make it work and push for another referendum on re-joining the EU (after a trial period)

 

Sabotaging it? You mean in the various Westminster votes on the precise nature of the relationship. Every party fecked it up there, the Tories controlled by the ERG and the others not realising that hard Brexit was actually a realistic possibility so getting sidetracked by their political squabbles.

[Hagar the Horrible]

The letter from Ash has been published and it is what I said  Independence and protecting Women's rights otherwise I will nip.

 

Indy first will just cause further division.  And women's right in direct conflict with the Greens,

 

She has set him up for a fall

[Hagar the Horrible]

2 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Sabotaging it? You mean in the various Westminster votes on the precise nature of the relationship. Every party fecked it up there, the Tories controlled by the ERG and the others not realising that hard Brexit was actually a realistic possibility so getting sidetracked by their political squabbles.

You cannot deny grievance politics in play, they wanted even Devolution to fail, blame all on WM and all will be a bed of roses in an Indy Scotland.  They tried to take advantage of a bad decision by the UK people, who I think regret it now

[Des Lynam]

35 minutes ago, XB52 said:

Salmond cares about one thing, Alex Salmond. I detest him with a passion.

You didn’t always feel that way. Hell you were even backing him after the court trial when Sturgeon and the rest tried to fit him up. What made you change your mind? 

[manaliveits105]

25 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

SNPs problem now is that the Indy movement is so big in Scotland now that it's impossible for 1 pro Indy party to cover the political opinions of every Pro Indy constituent.

Really ! Yes was at 57% with Mammy at her zenith but now  back to 2014 levels and falling like a stone 

People just want the day job done and independence is far from being a priority for normal thinking Scots 

 

[Homme]

2 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Really ! Yes was at 57% with Mammy at her zenith but now  back to 2014 levels and falling like a stone 

People just want the day job done and independence is far from being a priority for normal thinking Scots 

 

 

Agree with that. I have no strong Indy feeling either way. Have voted SNP the last twice but won't be next time around.

 

Day job as you say, first and foremost.

[Japan Jambo]

41 minutes ago, The Mighty Thor said:

 

Can't decide if you're serious or on a rather subtle fishing expedition 

 

I'm actually serious, but in fairness I do understand why you may think I'm not, obviously I have no wish for him to succeed. He is a once in a generation politician - I'm genuinely astounded that so many have fallen for a botched hatchet job. If people are serious about independence he should be their only vote. 🤷‍♂️

[XB52]

13 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

You didn’t always feel that way. Hell you were even backing him after the court trial when Sturgeon and the rest tried to fit him up. What made you change your mind? 

?? You've obviously got a better memory, or search engine, than me. 

I've no idea what I said at the time but I imagine it was along the lines of hoping the allegations were rubbish. Since then, he has done everything in his power to scupper the independence campaign. He supports Russia, surrounds himself with turncoats, and does everything to try and remain relevant. Of course, he is supported in that by the msm, who see him as I do; the best advert for the union.

[AyrJambo]

2 hours ago, John Findlay said:

Maybe they can be Queenmakers?

 

😄😄😄

 

1 hour ago, Japan Jambo said:

 

I find it incredible that those serious about independence repeatedly turn their back on the one politician with the skill, charisma, perseverance and belief in the cause. He was done up like a kipper by the Murrells, I don't understand how he can't be habilitated back to the cause.

 

 

Stitched up as you say but in the minds of the average punter the mud is sticking and with the unionist MSM repeating the allegations every chance they get I think he needs to remain in the background

Also, Alba are going through their own internal democracy squabbles and are, like the SNP, still fixated on the failed S30 referendum route to independence

See also @OTT post below...

 

45 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Yep. Clear as day that something absolutely reeks about his trial. The fact that he's successfully sued the government and is doing it again, thats not a man that pulled an OJ and is counting his lucky blessings, thats a man thats been wronged and is out of blood. I hope he's able to get to a point where what is clear to many, is clear to all. 

 

Its all well and good say "sleepy cuddles" and all the other nonsense at him, but break down the accusations - I mean twiddling someones hair which was a known office joke, allegedly putting his hand on someones leg which was impossible due to a seat divider in the vehicle and the driver testifying as much.. I think in one, he brushed past someone? Just laughable TBH and does a disservice to victims of actual sexual assault. 

 

How perjury charges haven't been laid is genuinely something we should have an answer for... 

 

36 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

SNPs problem now is that the Indy movement is so big in Scotland now that it's impossible for 1 pro Indy party to cover the political opinions of every Pro Indy constituent.

 

Correct the more pro-independence parties the better

As long as they are amenable to work together when advantageous to the over-riding cause

 

36 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Trying to stop Brexit was a blunder?

 

Yes

England should have been left to wallow in it's own xenophobia

Can't put it better than @OTT once more below...

 

25 minutes ago, OTT said:

 

Yes. 

 

Should have been characterised as Englands Brexit, position should have been clearly that this is a material change in circumstances from the future promised to Scots in 2014 for voting no, and we will be having another vote. 

 

I.e use the momentum of opposition on Brexit to force another referendum or put Independence front and centre of the 2017 general election (or 2019). So either way, voters get the opportunity to express their view. If they deny a referendum, it goes first line of the manifesto and presumably it goes legal thereafter - but rather than in Sturgeons failed legal challenge, the yes camp ideally have over 50% of voters expressing their desire for Independence, which carries weight when the brits try and stop it (as it is a clear expression of will). 

 

By trying to stop it, Sturgeon tacitly accepted it -which I think has made the whole situation impossible to extracate ourselves from. Blackford said one thing "Will not be dragged out of the EU against our will", then Sturgeons inaction/course of action effectively undermined him and left him looking like an idiot. 

 

[Japan Jambo]

53 minutes ago, redjambo said:

 

Given JJ's political views expressed on here, I would hazard the latter.

 

One doesn't have to agree with someone to respect them and their abilities. For the record I think Humza is a clown, Harvie/Slater have no business running so much as a church fete and that Sturgeon was a capable operator but deeply flawed. 

Edited April 26 by Japan Jambo

[Dirty Deeds]

Feels like Westminster style politics have well and truly arrived at Holyrood.

 

Only Labour benefit from an election now, it's a pity that it's 2 years until the next election as this parliament will struggle to get much done.

 

Yousaf picked up a poisoned chalice from Sturgeon and doesn't seem to have her skills to navigate through the mess.

 

Personally, I think the Scottish government needs to worry less about independence and get on delivering what is actually in the parliament's remit. If it does that, it might just survive to 2026.

 

As for independence, 2014 was the missed opportunity and Brexit and Covid ensured that the SNP spent the last few years fighting the Tories as opposed to getting on with the day job.

 

We need some grown ups in charge but there's not many around the any of the parties. Sad times.

[escobri]

34 minutes ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

Humza just cancelled a speech on Indy in Glasgow this lunchtime

Can only be good news 🥳 bye bye Humza the brief 👋👋

[Mikey1874]

2 hours ago, redjambo said:

 

Because it is unlikely that he could be guaranteed Green support for such a motion, imo, given that they have been part of the government up until now. Harvey has already expressed that his party would support a no confidence motion aimed specifically at Yousaf but not necessarily one that is critical of the entire government or its "progressive" policies which the Greens have been an integral part of.

 

Plenty time and opportunity for a new agreement with the Greens before the vote. Its the most likely outcome. Alba helps that actually since that's the much more hated option.

 

Although the actual option allowing the vote to happen and rejecting the Greens again is Kate Forbes as First Minister.

Edited April 26 by Mikey1874

[hughesie27]

36 minutes ago, manaliveits105 said:

Really ! Yes was at 57% with Mammy at her zenith but now  back to 2014 levels and falling like a stone 

People just want the day job done and independence is far from being a priority for normal thinking Scots 

 

Absolutely no chance you would have conceded Yes was ever at 57% at whichever point it was.

 

Regardless though, my point wasn't that Indy has grown. It was that at almost 50/50, that's a huge chunk and range of opinion. No political party in any country can appease that amount of people. 

Edited April 26 by hughesie27

[Gundermann]

3 minutes ago, Mikey1874 said:

 

Plenty time and opportunity for a new agreement with the Greens before the vote. Its the most likely outcome. Alba helps that actually since that's the much more hated option.

 

That's an interesting scenario. Wonder how they'll brush aside the current mud slinging?

 

Can't see much of a united front for Indy though. SNP is torn between its left-of-centre progressives (probably the majority) and gammons like Ewing/ religious conservatives like Forbes.

 

Greens themselves probably at loggerheads. Can understand members being upset at the ditching of emissions targets but both Labour and Tory have done U-turns on green policies and Greens won't advance their cause outwith govt.

 

Alba too seem to be infighting and still count to many utter heidbangers in their number to be a serious force politically.

 

If only the SSP were a functioning party with a more realistic agenda... 

[doctor jambo]

Labour just filed a motion of no confidence in the government.

Good

They are rubbish 

Humza on his way out

[ToadKiller Dog]

Sarwar Grandstanding that is all ,

Playing political games often backfire .

Greens won't vote for an election .

Tories won't want an election they would lose half the seats they have .

Alba would dissappear. 

 

Edited April 26 by ToadKiller Dog

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, OTT said:

 

The GRA was such a fumble its unreal. So many experienced activists were telling them this is an awful idea and they decided to listen to some confused students copying what they saw in America... 

just like they did with the hate crime act too . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

but most think it’s a crock of shit

I’m glad I’m on the right side of history 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, Hagar the Horrible said:

The letter from Ash has been published and it is what I said  Independence and protecting Women's rights otherwise I will nip.

 

Indy first will just cause further division.  And women's right in direct conflict with the Greens,

 

She has set him up for a fall

He’s out as the greens will do anything not to protect womens rights . Anything . So he’s a dead man walking . 

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 hours ago, Des Lynam said:

You didn’t always feel that way. Hell you were even backing him after the court trial when Sturgeon and the rest tried to fit him up. What made you change your mind? 

Wow !!! And yet I get called mr flip flop !!! Well I  never !!! 

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Gundermann said:

 

That's an interesting scenario. Wonder how they'll brush aside the current mud slinging?

 

Can't see much of a united front for Indy though. SNP is torn between its left-of-centre progressives (probably the majority) and gammons like Ewing/ religious conservatives like Forbes.

 

Greens themselves probably at loggerheads. Can understand members being upset at the ditching of emissions targets but both Labour and Tory have done U-turns on green policies and Greens won't advance their cause outwith govt.

 

Alba too seem to be infighting and still count to many utter heidbangers in their number to be a serious force politically.

 

If only the SSP were a functioning party with a more realistic agenda... 

Edited April 26 by JudyJudyJudy

[AyrJambo]

7 minutes ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

He’s out as the greens will do anything not to protect womens rights . Anything . So he’s a dead man walking . 

 

The wording of the motion which includes "That the Parliament has no confidence in the First Minister, in light of his failures in government" means that the Greens may abstain since they were part of the "failures in government"

 

Peter Bell worth a read as ever...

 

https://peterabell.scot/2024/04/26/much-happens-nothing-changes/

[ehcaley]

1 hour ago, ToadKiller Dog said:

Sarwar Grandstanding that is all ,

Playing political games often backfire .

Greens won't vote for an election .

Tories won't want an election they would lose half the seats they have .

Alba would dissappear. 

 

The points you made are exactly why he has done it ,hardly grandstanding.He knows there will be no Scottish Election now.Getting the Greens to support Humza after he dumped them is what he is wanting.

[JudyJudyJudy]

6 minutes ago, AyrJambo said:

 

The wording of the motion which includes "That the Parliament has no confidence in the First Minister, in light of his failures in government" means that the Greens may abstain since they were part of the "failures in government"

 

Peter Bell worth a read as ever...

 

https://peterabell.scot/2024/04/26/much-happens-nothing-changes/

Good article 

[Gizmo]

14 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Ouchhhh and another it’s a veritable tsunami of salty tears !!  Jesus what’s it gonna be like when you lose an Indy vote ..  call the medics !!! 😂😂😂

There's nothing salty about demonstrating empathy. Do you or Herr Jambo know the constitution of the 150 thousand people he's just written off as scroungers?

Of course you don't, because witless ignorance and brown-nosing other extreme posters is literally all you have to offer. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Gizmo said:

There's nothing salty about demonstrating empathy. Do you or Herr Jambo know the constitution of the 150 thousand people he's just written off as scroungers?

Of course you don't, because witless ignorance and brown-nosing other extreme posters is literally all you have to offer. 

😂😂😂😂 still greeting dear ? It’s a new day . You seem to carry a lot of anger . Best to let it go . It’s not a good look . Eats you up . 

[Gizmo]

Opportunistic to the extreme. I do wonder how she squares away the litany of failures of the Welsh labour administration if Labour are the panacea to all the UK's ills, Wesminster or devolved. 

Still, it serves as a reminder never to give Labour a vote in either election, so I thank her for that at least. 

[JudyJudyJudy]

[John Findlay]

2 hours ago, Des Lynam said:

You didn’t always feel that way. Hell you were even backing him after the court trial when Sturgeon and the rest tried to fit him up. What made you change your mind? 

Found out Salmond once played on the right wing for his primary school football team.

[Gizmo]

Just now, JudyJudyJudy said:

😂😂😂😂 still greeting dear ? It’s a new day . You seem to carry a lot of anger . Best to let it go . It’s not a good look . Eats you up . 

I ain't wearing no frown, more a cringe at your desperation for attention. 

More fool me for giving you some when you don't warrant it, just a running joke that has long lost it's amusement.  

[ehcaley]

1 minute ago, Gizmo said:

Opportunistic to the extreme. I do wonder how she squares away the litany of failures of the Welsh labour administration if Labour are the panacea to all the UK's ills, Wesminster or devolved. 

Still, it serves as a reminder never to give Labour a vote in either election, so I thank her for that at least. 

Of course it's opportunistic ,The Nats are in turmoil ,kick them when they are down.

[Gizmo]

Just now, ehcaley said:

Of course it's opportunistic ,The Nats are in turmoil ,kick them when they are down.

And she, naturally, is the only answer? Get real. 

[Gundermann]

4 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

Opportunistic to the extreme. I do wonder how she squares away the litany of failures of the Welsh labour administration if Labour are the panacea to all the UK's ills, Wesminster or devolved. 

Still, it serves as a reminder never to give Labour a vote in either election, so I thank her for that at least. 

 

You're not allowed to ask that. It's deflection apparently.

 

You can only criticise Scot Gov. Asking what Labour and Tory would do if given the chance, when evidence from Wales and England suggests they'd be even worse, is very bad.

[JudyJudyJudy]

2 minutes ago, Gizmo said:

I ain't wearing no frown, more a cringe at your desperation for attention. 

More fool me for giving you some when you don't warrant it, just a running joke that has long lost its amusement.  

Let it go ! 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, ehcaley said:

Of course it's opportunistic ,The Nats are in turmoil ,kick them when they are down.

That’s the nature of politics ! What’s new ? 

[Lord Montpelier]

Lorna Slater suggesting they may be open to a conversation with the SNP. Please no more gender woo woo. 

[John Findlay]

Just now, Lord Montpelier said:

Lorna Slater suggesting they may be open to a conversation with the SNP. Please no more gender woo woo. 

Obviously liked her ministerial perks to much.

Politicians of any party, there first thought is always, what's in it for me.

[JudyJudyJudy]

Just now, Lord Montpelier said:

Lorna Slater suggesting they may be open to a conversation with the SNP. Please no more gender woo woo. 

Desperate to jump back on the gravy train . She’ll surely be telt to forget her hatred for women , girls , gays and lesbians if she wants a return ? Mind you there are stlll a few like her with the SNP still . I and others have receipts .