Vegans

[Auld Reekin']

2 hours ago, Sooperstar said:

Dispatches programme about Vegans just starting on C4.

 

Well, that's me absolutely converted to their cause...            

[gordiegords]

12 hours ago, FWJ said:

Sorry - this is very late...

They’re not simply “stab[bing] an animal in the throat for my taste buds” though are they?  (Nice emotive language BTW) they’re killing an animal to provide you with First Class Protein and micro-nutrients (vitamin B12 for example) that are only available in meat (or “rotting animal flesh” as I’ve read on here).

Fortunately Homo Sapiens Sapiens are clever enough to manufacture the artificial additives that vegans require to stay healthy.  It’s kind of ironic that it’s because we started eating (cooked) meat that we got so smart.

 

As far as ‘morals’ go - would you swat a fly that had landed on your dinner?  How about a mouse that was nibbling its way through your larder?  Lay down a trap?

Some good points mate, I’m not sure what you mean by “first class protein” though, there’s also evidence that it was more starch that helped evolve our brains, animals don’t have b12 by default, it’s oroduced by bacteria, most animals now are supplemented with b12 injections, as for the fly and mouse conundrum then no, given the choice I wouldn’t swat a fly or trap a mouse, just like given the choice I would move away from not paying someone to kill animals. Defo interested in what “first class protein” is though, seriously. 

[Norm]

27 minutes ago, gordiegords said:

Some good points mate, I’m not sure what you mean by “first class protein” though, there’s also evidence that it was more starch that helped evolve our brains, animals don’t have b12 by default, it’s oroduced by bacteria, most animals now are supplemented with b12 injections, as for the fly and mouse conundrum then no, given the choice I wouldn’t swat a fly or trap a mouse, just like given the choice I would move away from not paying someone to kill animals. Defo interested in what “first class protein” is though, seriously. 

I dunno for sure but I seem to remember that animal proteins have the complete set of required amino acids while plant protein doesn't. I could be wrong but that seems to ring a bell in my head. 

[FWJ]

First class proteins are those that contain all the necessary amino acids / nutrients and are found in animal-derived products.

Second class are those from plant-based sources and while still containing some of the nutrients they do not contain all, or are not well-balanced.

 

Edited January 3, 2019 by FWJ

[gordiegords]

6 minutes ago, FWJ said:

First class proteins are those that contain all the necessary amino acids / nutrients and are found in animal-derived products.

Second class are those from plant-based sources and while still containing some of the nutrients they do not contain all, or are not well-balanced.

 

Plant proteins contain all amino acids, yes in different quantities, Mixing it up with what eat doesn’t provide a protein issue. The only incomplete protein out there is gellatin I’m sure. 

[FWJ]

I’m not being smart here, but if you’d avoid killing a fly how far would you go?  Every time you wash your hands or brush your teeth you’re killing billions of living organisms and upsetting a natural ecosystem. Would you keep a cat to get rid of mice?

Having huge herds of cows or flocks of chickens I’m sure isn’t good for the environment but how much better are vast fields of one crop

- be it wheat, sweet potatoes, rice or quinoa?  That surely must also lead to environmental upset and mess up local ecology.  How do you control the pests that affect these crops without killing them?

[Norm]

1 hour ago, FWJ said:

I’m not being smart here, but if you’d avoid killing a fly how far would you go?  Every time you wash your hands or brush your teeth you’re killing billions of living organisms and upsetting a natural ecosystem. Would you keep a cat to get rid of mice?

Having huge herds of cows or flocks of chickens I’m sure isn’t good for the environment but how much better are vast fields of one crop

- be it wheat, sweet potatoes, rice or quinoa?  That surely must also lead to environmental upset and mess up local ecology.  How do you control the pests that affect these crops without killing them?

Regarding the last bit, organic farmers seem to be able to do it. I could be wrong but I think you can grow other plants amongst your crops that deter the beasties who affect the crop you want. 

[The White Cockade]

https://rochdaleherald.co.uk/2017/12/21/man-dies-boredom-chance-meeting-vegan-crossfit/

[Dawnrazor]

1 hour ago, FWJ said:

How do you control the pests that affect these crops without killing them?

You don't, the amount or deer, hares, rabbits, pigeons, Rooks, jackdaw ect killed to protect crops eaten by vegetarians and vegans, as well as everyone else who eats vegetables, must run into the millions. "

Organic" crops too have to be protected from damage by birds and mammals. Death is unavoidable in food production, I'm happy to supply my own meat, happy to go and kill it and butcher it. 

We live in a society now where people are so far removed from how and where thier food comes from, people rely on farmers, lorry drivers, slaughter men and butchers to do everything for them. 

[ri Alban]

Humans don't need meat.

[Auld Reekin']

3 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Humans don't need meat.

 

And yet, Homo Sapiens became the dominant and most technologically-advanced species on the planet (for better or for worse) in  large part because of our omnivorous diet, rather than in spite of it. Adopting an omnivorous diet, containing animal proteins, boosted both the increase in our brain size and the rapid development of the technologies we used. Even those human cultures who are largely vegetarian or vegan (Jains, and the most observant Hindus and Buddhists, for example) would not have become what they are now had their ancestors not included meat, fish, and other animal proteins in their diets.

 

I'd agree with you if you're saying that our species does not have an absolute requirement to eat meat now, in the 21st century (and there are many compelling arguments why many of us should be cutting-down on consumption of meat, at least), but we would not have developed into what we are now - again, for better or for worse - without meat and other animal proteins having played a significant part in our diets until now.

[ri Alban]

Just now, Auld Reekin' said:

 

And yet, Homo Sapiens became the dominant and most technologically-advanced species on the planet (for better or for worse) in  large part because of our omnivorous diet, rather than in spite of it. Adopting an omnivorous diet, containing animal proteins, boosted both the increase in our brain size and the rapid development of the technologies we used. Even those human cultures who are largely vegetarian or vegan (Jains, and the most observant Hindus and Buddhists, for example) would not have become what they are now had their ancestors not included meat, fish, and other animal proteins in their diets.

 

I'd agree with you if you're saying that our species does not have an absolute requirement to eat meat now, in the 21st century (and there are many compelling arguments why many of us should be cutting-down on consumption of meat, at least), but we would not have developed into what we are now - again, for better or for worse - without meat and other animal proteins having played a significant part in our diets until now.

It was the cooking of meat that made us bigger. Absolute numbers took care of the dominance. Put an unarmed human in a cage with other predators, they'll come last every time.

[Dawnrazor]

37 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Humans don't need meat.

Yes, but it tastes nice. 

[Auld Reekin']

Just now, ri Alban said:

It was the cooking of meat that made us bigger. No it wasn't. Undoubtedly though the required harnessing of fire to do so as required was one of the key technologies that developed from the change from a purely or largely plant-based diet.

 

Absolute numbers took care of the dominance. Not at all sure of that as, even now, there are many species that are far more numerous then we are.

 

Put an unarmed human in a cage with other predators, they'll come last every time. Yes, if you're talking about the big cats, most of the bear species, several wolves, and some of the particularly aggressive venomous reptiles, for example, but no if you're talking about weasels or sparrow-hawks!

 

 

[Captain Sausage]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

It was the cooking of meat that made us bigger. Absolute numbers took care of the dominance. Put an unarmed human in a cage with other predators, they'll come last every time.

 

Wtf?

 

Humans don’t need to be the biggest, strongest predator around. We are by far the smartest and that’s how we’ve evolved into the dominant life on earth. 

 

We got put on earth (a big cage) with all other animals and came out on top. 

 

For what it’s worth, we eat red meat only 2-3 times a week, chicken and fish for lunch/dinner the other days. We don’t do it out of a sense of moral superiority, merely to give ourselves a more diverse diet to try and stay healthy. 

[gjcc]

I knew loads of people who have died, one thing they had in common is they ate meat. 

 

I haven’t known any vegans that have died. 

 

Probably something in that, I’m off to Greggs for a vegan sausage roll. 

[Maple Leaf]

1 hour ago, Dawnrazor said:

Yes, but it tastes nice. 

 

People who avoid meat have a rebuttal to that.

 

They say that freshly killed meat tastes awful, and that is why meat is 'aged' before being sold.  Ageing is a euphemism for partial decomposition.

 

Also, meat eaters will invariably cook their meat with seasonings, sauces, etc., and it's those seasonings and sauces that provide the taste that meat eaters enjoy.

 

I'm a meat eater still, but that counter argument seems to make sense to me.

[Auld Reekin']

14 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

People who avoid meat have a rebuttal to that.

 

They say that freshly killed meat tastes awful, and that is why meat is 'aged' before being sold.  Ageing is a euphemism for partial decomposition.

 

Also, meat eaters will invariably cook their meat with seasonings, sauces, etc., and it's those seasonings and sauces that provide the taste that meat eaters enjoy.

 

I'm a meat eater still, but that counter argument seems to make sense to me.

 

Wouldn't necessarily agree with that: I've eaten (very!) freshly-killed rabbit, hare, and pheasant - sometimes cooked very plainly and unadorned too - and it's tasted great. "Hung" game usually has a somewhat stronger taste, that's all. I haven't eaten lamb, beef, chicken, or pork that's been very recently killed (as far as I know, that is - I might have done in Spain, Portugal, or wherever) so I can't say for certain about them, but I'd expect that any very fresh meat just to be a bit milder in taste than that which has been aged.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Auld Reekin'

[milky_26]

20 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

People who avoid meat have a rebuttal to that.

 

They say that freshly killed meat tastes awful, and that is why meat is 'aged' before being sold.  Ageing is a euphemism for partial decomposition.

 

Also, meat eaters will invariably cook their meat with seasonings, sauces, etc., and it's those seasonings and sauces that provide the taste that meat eaters enjoy.

 

I'm a meat eater still, but that counter argument seems to make sense to me.

you also season and add sauces to salads and vegetables so that argument you are making there does not add up

[Francis Albert]

The Vegan contestant supporting a Vegan charity on Celebrity Mastermind (the celebrity like all the others on this being unknown to me) yesterday seemed to have no qualms about sitting on the famous leather chair.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Francis Albert

[gjcc]

Fruit and veggies  are also often “aged/decomposed” before consumption. 

[Maple Leaf]

20 minutes ago, milky_26 said:

you also season and add sauces to salads and vegetables so that argument you are making there does not add up

 

The vegans in my family don't.

[Maple Leaf]

20 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

The Vegan contestant supporting a Vegan charity on Celebrity Mastermind (the celebrity like all the others on this being unknown to me) yesterday seemed to have no qualms about sitting on the famous leather chair.

 

Did the contestant say that he/she had no qualms about it?  Did the organisers give him/her a choice of chairs to sit in?

 

The vegans I know do not use any product that contains fur, leather, wool, or silk. 

[Maple Leaf]

21 minutes ago, gjcc said:

Fruit and veggies  are also often “aged/decomposed” before consumption. 

 

Intentionally?  Fruits and vegetables are better when fresh, surely.

[Francis Albert]

11 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Did the contestant say that he/she had no qualms about it?  Did the organisers give him/her a choice of chairs to sit in?

 

The vegans I know do not use any product that contains fur, leather, wool, or silk.

Sinc it is famously described as a leather chair I would have expected him to issue a disclaimer of some sort. Especially since he made a point of proclaiming his veganism.

[Francis Albert]

11 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Did the contestant say that he/she had no qualms about it?  Did the organisers give him/her a choice of chairs to sit in?

 

The vegans I know do not use any product that contains fur, leather, wool, or silk.

Sinc it is famously described as a leather chair I would have expected him to issue a disclaimer of some sort. Especially since he made a point of proclaiming his veganism.

[Francis Albert]

13 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Intentionally?  Fruits and vegetables are better when fresh, surely.

No. Once picked fruits often have to ripen before being edible

[gjcc]

17 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

Intentionally?  Fruits and vegetables are better when fresh, surely.

 

Ever tried an unripe banana? 

Its the breakdown(decomposition) of starch into simpler sugars that gives it the sweet taste when ripe. 

[Dawnrazor]

1 hour ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

People who avoid meat have a rebuttal to that.

 

They say that freshly killed meat tastes awful, and that is why meat is 'aged' before being sold.  Ageing is a euphemism for partial decomposition.

 

Also, meat eaters will invariably cook their meat with seasonings, sauces, etc., and it's those seasonings and sauces that provide the taste that meat eaters enjoy.

 

I'm a meat eater still, but that counter argument seems to make sense to me.

"some" being the important word, I eat venison as fresh as I can, steak and beef is aged more to tender it more than to taste it, I don't have a sauce with steak, beef or venison. 

[Maple Leaf]

52 minutes ago, Francis Albert said:

No. Once picked fruits often have to ripen before being edible

 

47 minutes ago, gjcc said:

 

Ever tried an unripe banana? 

Its the breakdown(decomposition) of starch into simpler sugars that gives it the sweet taste when ripe. 

 

Normally, fruit is meant to be picked when ripe and eaten immediately, when it's at its best.

 

But if a tropical fruit is intended for a northern market, that doesn't work as the fruit will have rotted long before it reaches its destination.  So fruits like bananas and mangoes are picked before they're ready, and allowed to ripen on the journey.  The taste of those fruits are a poor substitute for the real thing.

[milky_26]

1 hour ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

The vegans in my family don't.

so they dont put salt in the water when boiling potatoes?

[gjcc]

15 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

 

Normally, fruit is meant to be picked when ripe and eaten immediately, when it's at its best.

 

But if a tropical fruit is intended for a northern market, that doesn't work as the fruit will have rotted long before it reaches its destination.  So fruits like bananas and mangoes are picked before they're ready, and allowed to ripen on the journey.  The taste of those fruits are a poor substitute for the real thing.

 

Some fruits won’t ripen “properly” when left on the tree. Pears, for example, won’t ripen “correctly.”

If left on the tree to ripen naturally, the centres of some fruits turn to mush before they appear “ripe” to humans (and other animals)

Avocados are another one that won’t ripen until harvested. 

 

I use use inverted commas as it’s human perception as to when these are “properly” ripe, most edible and delicious, just like it is human opinion when it is safe and most delicious to eat meat products.

It’ll have been trial and error over thousands of years that tailors our perception of food, if it’s safe to eat and wether its tastes good. And with time, advances in food storage and preservation our relationship with foods has changed. 

[Taffin]

3 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

People who avoid meat have a rebuttal to that.

 

They say that freshly killed meat tastes awful, and that is why meat is 'aged' before being sold.  Ageing is a euphemism for partial decomposition.

 

Also, meat eaters will invariably cook their meat with seasonings, sauces, etc., and it's those seasonings and sauces that provide the taste that meat eaters enjoy.

 

I'm a meat eater still, but that counter argument seems to make sense to me.

 

Similarly raw vegetables usually taste rank and vegans add seasoning and sauces to their dishes.

 

How much of that is down to the modern diet of refined carbs and our addiction to sugar? Who knows.

[Victorian]

Veganuary.    **** off.    Awful slogan.

 

Kebabuary on the way.

[gordiegords]

10 hours ago, FWJ said:

I’m not being smart here, but if you’d avoid killing a fly how far would you go?  Every time you wash your hands or brush your teeth you’re killing billions of living organisms and upsetting a natural ecosystem. Would you keep a cat to get rid of mice?

Having huge herds of cows or flocks of chickens I’m sure isn’t good for the environment but how much better are vast fields of one crop

- be it wheat, sweet potatoes, rice or quinoa?  That surely must also lead to environmental upset and mess up local ecology.  How do you control the pests that affect these crops without killing them?

I dont have the answers to all those questions man, i do as best as i can to avoid harm, we slaughter animals by the billions and fish by the trillions, there isnt much i can do about standing on a fly or killing bacteria when i wash my hands, there has to be something said for intention, when i wash my hands, when i eat a grain my intention is to eat a grain, not kill a field mouse that may have been caught up in a tractor to get me that grain, when someone buys a steak then the direct intention is to slaughter an animal for its flesh, there isnt any getting away from that. i value sentience and  as much as flies are alive, i wouldnt say they were as sentient as say, a cow, or a pig, veganism isnt about perfection, its about avoiding animal use as much as possible. 

Edited January 3, 2019 by gordiegords

[Governor Tarkin]

Can folk not just eat wtf they like and stop bothering each other?

Edited January 3, 2019 by Governor Tarkin

[Auld Reekin']

1 minute ago, Governor Tarkin said:

Can folk not just eat wtf they like and stop bothering each other?

 

[Francis Albert]

5 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

 

Normally, fruit is meant to be picked when ripe and eaten immediately, when it's at its best.

 

But if a tropical fruit is intended for a northern market, that doesn't work as the fruit will have rotted long before it reaches its destination.  So fruits like bananas and mangoes are picked before they're ready, and allowed to ripen on the journey.  The taste of those fruits are a poor substitute for the real thing.

If I leave the apples on my apple tree until they are fully ripe 99% or more will be eaten before I get to them. So what do I do? Eat processed food? Spray the trees with something to kill the apple predators?

 

[Victorian]

18 minutes ago, Governor Tarkin said:

Can folk not just eat wtf they like and stop bothering each other?

 

Nut.   The rise of dietary extremism is underway.       Watch out for the Veganic State.

[Ulysses]

5 hours ago, milky_26 said:

so they dont put salt in the water when boiling potatoes?

 

Put what? 

[Ulysses]

6 hours ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

 

Normally, fruit is meant to be picked when ripe and eaten immediately, when it's at its best.

 

But if a tropical fruit is intended for a northern market, that doesn't work as the fruit will have rotted long before it reaches its destination.  So fruits like bananas and mangoes are picked before they're ready, and allowed to ripen on the journey.  The taste of those fruits are a poor substitute for the real thing.

 

I think bananas are artificially ripened by storing them in warm chambers filled with ethylene gas.

 

Calcium carbide is also used to ripen some fruit.  Calcium carbide can also be used to produce acetylene gas for welding, and as a base material for making plastic.  Because this type of ripening process can lead to production of trace levels of some very nasty chemicals unless a lot of care is taken, it's probably not the safest way of doing things, but it's still a way things get done. 

[Governor Tarkin]

35 minutes ago, Victorian said:

 

Nut.   The rise of dietary extremism is underway.       Watch out for the Veganic State.

 

 sallahd jamjar

[gjcc]

1 hour ago, Governor Tarkin said:

Can folk not just eat wtf they like and stop bothering each other?

 

Hey Sawney Bean.

[Maple Leaf]

5 hours ago, Francis Albert said:

If I leave the apples on my apple tree until they are fully ripe 99% or more will be eaten before I get to them. So what do I do? Eat processed food? Spray the trees with something to kill the apple predators?

 

 

The topic is vegans.  A plant-based diet is healthier than a meat-based diet.  The evidence in support of that is overwhelming.  Figure out the details for yourself, whatever is best for you.

[ri Alban]

6 hours ago, Governor Tarkin said:

Can folk not just eat wtf they like and stop bothering each other?

I wonder if the ones bothering the vegan folk on the thread would eat human flesh. It's meat , and there's plenty of it, so why not. 

This thread has made me change my veiw. Small steps.

[Norm]

4 hours ago, ri Alban said:

I wonder if the ones bothering the vegan folk on the thread would eat human flesh. It's meat , and there's plenty of it, so why not. 

This thread has made me change my veiw. Small steps.

I'd have no problem eating human flesh. Genuinely wouldn't have an issue. If a bunch of horrible murdering *******s had some bolt gun put through their head and got turned into burgers, pass me the ketchup, I'll give it a munch. 

[ri Alban]

54 minutes ago, Normthebarman said:

I'd have no problem eating human flesh. Genuinely wouldn't have an issue. If a bunch of horrible murdering *******s had some bolt gun put through their head and got turned into burgers, pass me the ketchup, I'll give it a munch. 

Don't believe you.

[Norm]

5 minutes ago, ri Alban said:

Don't believe you.

Why? It's meat. I eat meat. I would have as much dis-connection from the person who is in the burger as I do from a cow. 

[Governor Tarkin]

1 hour ago, ri Alban said:

Don't believe you.

 

If we were hungry enough, we'd all eat human.

 

 

[AlimOzturk]

2 hours ago, Normthebarman said:

Why? It's meat. I eat meat. I would have as much dis-connection from the person who is in the burger as I do from a cow. 

 

This is possibly the most idiotic post I have read on Kickback. Well done as that is some achievement. 

Edited January 4, 2019 by AlimOzturk