Liverpool Fans Blamed for Hillsborough Disaster

[Guest Just Came To Say Kello]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17382896

 

Not been a good season for the reputation of Liverpool's fans in general. The key point:

 

"This was getting lost sight of in attempts to blame the police, the football authorities, etc."The prime minister was informed that a senior member of the Merseyside Police directly blamed supporters: "One officer, born and bred in Liverpool, said that he was deeply ashamed to say that it was drunken Liverpool fans who had caused this disaster, just as they had caused the deaths at Heysel."

[Rick Grimes]

Late night fishing?

[Shapes]

[Guest Just Came To Say Kello]

Late night fishing?

 

Why must you ignore me all the time, Rick? It's most upsetting.

[Rick Grimes]

Why must you ignore me all the time, Rick? It's most upsetting.

 

 

I'm a Liverpool fan.

[Guest Just Came To Say Kello]

I'm a Liverpool fan.

 

So what do you think of the leaked parts of that document then?

 

Also, still not a reason to blank me

[Jezza]

As much as I hate the scum and I do believe they are racist dicks and they tried to kill the guy (although got the wrong guy) in Bulgaria that is completely wrong I reckon. Drunk scousers wouldn't have helped. Drink in a time like that = fear. Fear = panic. Panic = what happened.

[Rick Grimes]

So what do you think of the leaked parts of that document then?

 

Also, still not a reason to blank me

 

 

I think that its just one person's opinion & to blame either Heysel or Hillsborough solely on drunken fans is quite frankly ridiculous. That said, there's a certain portion of the blame for both that does need to be carried by the fans and that doesn't ever seem to be taken into account when people starting shrieking about how appalling it is to suggest so.

 

Also, you're right. Sorry - not sure if I can make it.

[Denny Crane]

It reaffirms how quick the police were to shift the blame in the aftermath of the tragedy without any conclusive proof. The Taylor Report would refute Kenneth Oxford's claims. Plus it is fair to say that long before this tragedy, Oxford's relationship with the citizens of Merseyside which he was supposed to serve had been severely strained. His out of touch methods of policing was seen was a major contributory factor to the disturbances in the early 80s at Toxteth.

 

Still, a bit of piss poor trolling from the OP.

[Guest Just Came To Say Kello]

I think that its just one person's opinion & to blame either Heysel or Hillsborough solely on drunken fans is quite frankly ridiculous. That said, there's a certain portion of the blame for both that does need to be carried by the fans and that doesn't ever seem to be taken into account when people starting shrieking about how appalling it is to suggest so.

 

Also, you're right. Sorry - not sure if I can make it.

 

I agree, I hope most replies adopt this balanced view tbh. And that's fine, hope to see you soon though

 

It reaffirms how quick the police were to shift the blame in the aftermath of the tragedy without any conclusive proof. The Taylor Report would refute Kenneth Oxford's claims. Plus it is fair to say that long before this tragedy, Oxford's relationship with the citizens of Merseyside which he was supposed to serve had been severely strained. His out of touch methods of policing was seen was a major contributory factor to the disturbances in the early 80s at Toxteth.

 

Still, a bit of piss poor trolling from the OP.

 

I knew this would happen. The only thing in my OP that's even remotely contentious is the fact that the reputation of Liverpool's fans has taken a battering this season - the other part's a quotation from the BBC link. If you'd like to discuss that then start a new thread, Denny Crane. This one's only for discussion about the leaked document and I won't allow it to be hijacked and pulled off course by internet trolls or from Liverpool fans attempting to deflect. Perhaps you could learn a thing or two from Mr. Grimes.

 

Thanks.

[Deek]

I read the story as Mrs Thatcher had been fed misleading information by the police about who was to blame for the tragedy. The born and bred officer I think was anonymous, which sounds like it should have been a quote in "The Sun"

[Do The Dance]

The leaked documents are to show how inept the Police were, not to bring a debate on whether or not Liverpool fans were guilty of anything at all. This has since been proved to not be the case. There isn't even a small suggestion to be made (as has been referred to above) that any fans were to blame at all.

 

If it`s not an attempt at a troll, then you should find out more on the context of this piece and its release. Some topics are fine for a wind up, this isn't one of them.

[topcat]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17382896

 

Not been a good season for the reputation of Liverpool's fans in general. The key point:

 

[/size][/font][/color]

 

You're saying that the Key point is that the chief constable Merseyside police prejudged the situation and backed his colleagues in South Yorkshre, without waiting for the facts to be examined?

 

I'd have said that the Governments efforts to sway the outcome of the enquiry and eagerness to legislate in haste were more important.

 

He also told the Prime Minister that he felt ?uneasy about the way in which Anfield was being turned into a shrine,?

 

96 (Ninety Six) people had died and he's uneasy about people mourning in public.

 

That guy is a *****

[Rudiboy]

You're saying that the Key point is that the chief constable Merseyside police prejudged the situation and backed his colleagues in South Yorkshre, without waiting for the facts to be examined?

 

I'd have said that the Governments efforts to sway the outcome of the enquiry and eagerness to legislate in haste were more important.

 

He also told the Prime Minister that he felt ?uneasy about the way in which Anfield was being turned into a shrine,?

 

96 (Ninety Six) people had died and he's uneasy about people mourning in public.

 

That guy is a *****

 

I couldn't have put it better myself. Disgraceful behaviour from the Police and the Government!

[The Old Tolbooth]

The leaked documents are to show how inept the Police were, not to bring a debate on whether or not Liverpool fans were guilty of anything at all. This has since been proved to not be the case. There isn't even a small suggestion to be made (as has been referred to above) that any fans were to blame at all.

 

If it`s not an attempt at a troll, then you should find out more on the context of this piece and its release. Some topics are fine for a wind up, this isn't one of them.

 

 

Absolutely bang on EPS, Topcat nails it too.

[Eckauskas]

So what's the excuse for Heysel?

[topcat]

I couldn't have put it better myself. Disgraceful behaviour from the Police and the Government!

 

To be fair to the OP he probably wasn't born at the time and so Hillsborough is just a story to him. He can't remember the weird feeling standing on the terraces at Tynecastle the weekend after knowing what had happened to normal people arriving to do the same normal thing the previous weekend. In fact he probably can't remember terracing, never mind the scary experience of leaving the away end at Easter before it was rebuilt.

 

The OP at least has the naivety of youth in his defence. Sir Kenneth Oxford on the other hand was a ***** and probably still is.

[Jam Tarts 1874]

During the 70's I witnessed many occassions when there were significant problems at turnstyles with large crowds turning up late for big games at grounds all around Scotland, difficulties getting in, people very drunk, poor policing etc. However ultimately during these occassions I also, without exception, witnessed the fans having some sense and some patience.

 

 

[Rabbie_Burns]

To be fair to the OP he probably wasn't born at the time and so Hillsborough is just a story to him. He can't remember the weird feeling standing on the terraces at Tynecastle the weekend after knowing what had happened to normal people arriving to do the same normal thing the previous weekend. In fact he probably can't remember terracing, never mind the scary experience of leaving the away end at Easter before it was rebuilt.

 

The OP at least has the naivety of youth in his defence. Sir Kenneth Oxford on the other hand was a ***** and probably still is.

 

 

Very well put TC

[IMA MAROON]

The apologists are full of garbage. It is always the same with that lot.

 

 

Cute and cuddly, innocent of everything Liverpool fans in the Athens final were climbing barriers to get into the ground, using forged tickets, rushing through security etc. The place was over-crowded and dangerous.

 

If it was Chelsea and not Liverpool the story would be told differently. Matter of fact.

[Deans Jambo]

Some drunk football fans at a cup semi-final shock horror!

 

The poor design of that part of the football stadium was, for me, most to blame. Yet back then the powers at be were oblivious to those safety concerns as it was a pack them in, take their money scenario.

 

3 pens were available for supporters in that area yet no one thought to direct fans where necessary. Liverpool fans would have went straight for the first available entrance to the terraing desperate to get in for the start of the match oblivious to the overcrowding of the the centre pen. Unaware as well that the terrace didn't open out to all and fencing would restrict them.

 

Drunk or not the whole thing was badly policed.

[Paolo]

Whilst it may not be solely down to drunk Liverpool fans, they certainly contributed towards it and the bad policing perhaps would not have been an issue if they did not turn up. They have to take at least some of the responsibility.

[DavieG]

The Police and Football Authorities forget that Liverpool and Forest played in the semi final at Hillsborough the previous year and the same thing nearly happened then.

 

Liverpool with a far larger support were given fewer tickets as the Lepping Lane End was nearer the transport routes to and from Merseyside.

 

Fans warned then of the near disaster, but no one apppeared to listen. The second game should have been played at a bigger ground like Old Trafford which may have reduced the instances of fans without tickets trying to get into the ground.

[Fermit the Krog]

Offensive thread title IMO but then the attempt at trolling wouldn't have carried the same weight without it.

 

It's no doubt been done a thousand times and I've got little left to say on the subject other than I remember my Grandad getting angry at the ignorance of the younger generation with regards events they were born long after.

 

Whilst not quite at the stage he was, I can certainly understand that more as I get older.

 

R.I.P 96.

[Do The Dance]

Whilst it may not be solely down to drunk Liverpool fans, they certainly contributed towards it and the bad policing perhaps would not have been an issue if they did not turn up. They have to take at least some of the responsibility.

 

No, they don't.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

The apologists are full of garbage. It is always the same with that lot.

 

I've read the full Interim Taylor Report from front to back (which, by the way, was subsequent to these comments by Merseyside Police) and it makes it pretty clear that most of the blame lay with SYP and the design of Hillsborough itself.

 

That's good enough for me.

[Gregory House M.D.]

.

[Gregory House M.D.]

So what's the excuse for Heysel?

Haven't you heard? It was the Juve fans' fault because they were throwing bricks they took off the wall.

 

[Adi Dassler]

I would close this now.

 

Not a Liverpool fan by the way but there are more pricks on this thread than a dartboard.

 

"Everyone knows it was Liverpool fans' fault".

 

If there's been a bigger factual inaccuracy in the history of JKB then i've not seen it.

[Boris]

 

If there's been a bigger factual inaccuracy in the history of JKB then i've not seen it.

 

Billy Bunter is a good poster.

 

Still not really on the same scale, is it?

[jack D and coke]

I don't really have a kiddy on English team I claim to support like basically every man and his dug these days but cos of Dalglish I've always wanted them to do well. Always had a soft spot for Everton too.

 

Scousers though, are a bunch of c**** and no mistake.

[gorgie rd eh11]

The apologists are full of garbage. It is always the same with that lot.

 

 

Cute and cuddly, innocent of everything Liverpool fans in the Athens final were climbing barriers to get into the ground, using forged tickets, rushing through security etc. The place was over-crowded and dangerous.

 

If it was Chelsea and not Liverpool the story would be told differently. Matter of fact.

 

 

 

Sounds just like the old days at wembley when the scots were there.

 

The garbage spouted by people desperate to point score over the deaths of football fans is getting very tedious.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

I would close this now.

 

It's a worthwhile topic of discussion after yesterday's stories

[el_jambo74]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17382896

 

Not been a good season for the reputation of Liverpool's fans in general. The key point:

 

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To balance it out check this article

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-17385824

 

and this quote in particular ...

 

Labour MP Andy Burnham, who is originally from Liverpool, said: "These papers seem to confirm what we've believed for many, many years - that immediate attempts were made from the highest levels to shift the blame on to the supporters and away from the police.

 

"The truth must be told and the people of Liverpool must have an apology for one of the greatest injustices of the 20th Century."

 

 

Justice for the 96!

[Adi Dassler]

Billy Bunter is a good poster.

 

Still not really on the same scale, is it?

 

Every single thread on here about Hillsborough descends into farce.

 

Mainly due to the shocking patter of people who pursue the 'English Celtic chat'. They seem to think it somehow boosts their Hearts credentials.

 

It doesn't.

[Adi Dassler]

It's a worthwhile topic of discussion after yesterday's stories

 

See my post above.

 

There has never been a Hillsborough thread on here that has not descended into a mud slinging exercise against LFC or scousers in general.

[el_jambo74]

Sounds just like the old days at wembley when the scots were there.

 

The garbage spouted by people desperate to point score over the deaths of football fans is getting very tedious.

 

Totally agree mate. I am certainly not pretending the Liverpool fans are saints, but surely any reasonable person can see that the blame lies not with drunken football fans, but the actions of SY Police who opened the gates and caused the crushing, then failed to get ambulances in quick enough to save the dying. The headlines in the Sun Newspaper after Hillsborough (about stealing from the dead etc.) were outrageous. No wonder they can hardly shift a paper in the Merseyside area.

[west lothian loyal]

This wouldnt have happened up here in my opinion , if the signs were there of pushing at the gates etc im sure strathclyde or lothian and borders mounted police would without hesitation have trampled a few toes and knocked a few heads in view of creating a cordon at turnstyles or gates.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

See my post above.

 

There has never been a Hillsborough thread on here that has not descended into a mud slinging exercise against LFC or scousers in general.

 

But others like you (and me) can argue the toss.

 

I'd go so far as to say that no-one can have a considered opinion on Hillsborough until they've read this:

 

http://www.fsf.org.uk/uploaded/publications/pdfs/interim%20report%20hillsborough.pdf

[Socrates]

I would close this now.

 

Not a Liverpool fan by the way but there are more pricks on this thread than a dartboard.

 

"Everyone knows it was Liverpool fans' fault".

 

If there's been a bigger factual inaccuracy in the history of JKB then i've not seen it.

+1. Also not in any way a Liverpool sympathiser but this thread and some of the posting in it is truly dire.

[Jay B-8)]

Iv'e heard accounts from people at Heysel that there was Chelsea boys there and that there,English firms would join up in europe

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

Iv'e heard accounts from people at Heysel that there was Chelsea boys there and that there,English firms would join up in europe

 

[Diego10]

The whole point of the leaked document is that the guy was lying to cover the inadequacy of the policing, as subsequently proved in the investigation.

 

People using discredited lies to say Liverpool fans take some of the blame need to stop being MOD EDIT.

[Adi Dassler]

But others like you (and me) can argue the toss.

 

I'd go so far as to say that no-one can have a considered opinion on Hillsborough until they've read this:

 

http://www.fsf.org.u...illsborough.pdf

 

I agree.

 

I've read that. Read the books. Been to Anfield. Spoke to people who were there. Bought the pin badges and contributed to the Justive fund.

 

Not in any way shape or form was what happened the fault of Liverpool fans.

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

The whole point of the leaked document is that the guy was lying to cover the inadequacy of the policing, as subsequently proved in the investigation.

 

Either that or he said what he genuinely thought was true at the time

[Diego10]

Either that or he said what he genuinely thought was true at the time

The sun ran all these stories at the time. The investigation disproved all of those stories and the police were found culpable. He gave inaccurate briefing to the government and knew it.

[Eckauskas]

The Police and Football Authorities forget that Liverpool and Forest played in the semi final at Hillsborough the previous year and the same thing nearly happened then.

 

Liverpool with a far larger support were given fewer tickets as the Lepping Lane End was nearer the transport routes to and from Merseyside.

 

Fans warned then of the near disaster, but no one apppeared to listen. The second game should have been played at a bigger ground like Old Trafford which may have reduced the instances of fans without tickets trying to get into the ground.

 

Playing devils advocate here, but you have to wonder why this kind of thing only really happens/happened to Liverpool fans.

 

Repeatedly, at least.

[Denny Crane]

I agree, I hope most replies adopt this balanced view tbh. And that's fine, hope to see you soon though

 

 

 

I knew this would happen. The only thing in my OP that's even remotely contentious is the fact that the reputation of Liverpool's fans has taken a battering this season - the other part's a quotation from the BBC link. If you'd like to discuss that then start a new thread, Denny Crane. This one's only for discussion about the leaked document and I won't allow it to be hijacked and pulled off course by internet trolls or from Liverpool fans attempting to deflect. Perhaps you could learn a thing or two from Mr. Grimes.

 

Thanks.

 

What are you rabbiting on about. I have debated the quote and your very poor attempt to twist it to suit whatever agenda you have.

 

 

To be fair to the OP he probably wasn't born at the time and so Hillsborough is just a story to him. He can't remember the weird feeling standing on the terraces at Tynecastle the weekend after knowing what had happened to normal people arriving to do the same normal thing the previous weekend. In fact he probably can't remember terracing, never mind the scary experience of leaving the away end at Easter before it was rebuilt.

 

The OP at least has the naivety of youth in his defence. Sir Kenneth Oxford on the other hand was a ***** and probably still is.

 

I believe Oxford is no longer with us - although I'm sure his spirit is a ^^^^

 

The Police and Football Authorities forget that Liverpool and Forest played in the semi final at Hillsborough the previous year and the same thing nearly happened then.

 

Liverpool with a far larger support were given fewer tickets as the Lepping Lane End was nearer the transport routes to and from Merseyside.

 

Fans warned then of the near disaster, but no one apppeared to listen. The second game should have been played at a bigger ground like Old Trafford which may have reduced the instances of fans without tickets trying to get into the ground.

 

Spurs fans received crush injuries there in the 81 semi as did Leeds fans in the 87 semi. The warnings at that ground were there.

 

This wouldnt have happened up here in my opinion , if the signs were there of pushing at the gates etc im sure strathclyde or lothian and borders mounted police would without hesitation have trampled a few toes and knocked a few heads in view of creating a cordon at turnstyles or gates.

 

Strathclyde didn't cover themselves in glory in the 93 cup semi. Imagine if fencing had been there when Preston scored?

[Dusk_Till_Dawn]

This is from an Observer Article in 2005:

 

 

"The (Liverpool) Echo devoted swaths of space to witnesses' accounts reporting that the riot had been the work of the National Front, Chelsea or Leeds supporters or had even, as one diehard Red insisted, been provoked by disgruntled Evertonians. Liberal councillor Peter Millea, who was at the match, told the Echo he distinctly made out a contingent of skinheads wearing Union Jack T-shirts and speaking with cockney accents. 'No Scousers dress like that ,' he said, 'and it was clear they had just come for trouble.' Liverpool chairman Smith issued a statement saying that the troublemakers were NF supporters, probably from London, and that a shot had been fired before the worst part of the riot.

Fans desperately wanted to believe that all of this was true. Most of these rumours have long since been dismissed as fabrications."

 

So when I said 'what', what I meant was "do you actually ******* believe that shit?"

[Eckauskas]

This is from an Observer Article in 2005:

 

 

"The (Liverpool) Echo devoted swaths of space to witnesses' accounts reporting that the riot had been the work of the National Front, Chelsea or Leeds supporters or had even, as one diehard Red insisted, been provoked by disgruntled Evertonians. Liberal councillor Peter Millea, who was at the match, told the Echo he distinctly made out a contingent of skinheads wearing Union Jack T-shirts and speaking with cockney accents. 'No Scousers dress like that ,' he said, 'and it was clear they had just come for trouble.' Liverpool chairman Smith issued a statement saying that the troublemakers were NF supporters, probably from London, and that a shot had been fired before the worst part of the riot.

Fans desperately wanted to believe that all of this was true. Most of these rumours have long since been dismissed as fabrications."

 

So when I said 'what', what I meant was "do you actually ******* believe that shit?"

 

I mind another set of fans blaming Chelsea casuals for a riot over a football match, not that long ago...