Independence PROS and CONS

[jambos are go!]

Pro

 

Scots are distinct from the English and always have been.

 

 

Con

 

There are massive familiy ties across the borders due to centuries of cross national partnerships that persist to this day to the extent that the concept of a distinct English or Scottish race is ridiculous.

 

 

Pro

 

Scotland needs to be a nation again according to the SNP.

 

Con

 

On the Andrew Marr show this morninng Alex Salmond went out his way to say that the SNP does not want Scotland to leave the United Kingdom but wants to be just politically independent. Its on the Iplayer if you want to check.

[2NaFish]

I won't vote for independence because my 'Scottish identity' simply isn't strong enough to warrant it. For example I don't feel I have anything more in common with someone from the Highlands than I do with say someone from Newcastle. In fact I probably have more in common with the latter.

 

There are several other countries in the world that are formed by unions of older Kingdoms with cultural/linguistic differences (Germany and Italy being 2 notable examples in Europe) but just like these countries, I feel we are stronger together.

[southside1874]

Pro

 

Scots are distinct from the English and always have been.

 

 

Con

 

There are massive familiy ties across the borders due to centuries of cross national partnerships that persist to this day to the extent that the concept of a distinct English or Scottish race is ridiculous.

 

 

Pro

 

Scotland needs to be a nation again according to the SNP.

 

Con

 

On the Andrew Marr show this morninng Alex Salmond went out his way to say that the SNP does not want Scotland to leave the United Kingdom but wants to be just politically independent. Its on the Iplayer if you want to check.

 

You can keep the union but have political independence. Have a look at the European Union.

[moogsy]

just playing devils advocate, but it seems your first paragraph is contradicted by your second. It seems odd to be lukewarm about independence because there isn't any great social cohesion in Scotland and then to say union with England is viable - not desirable, but viable - because there are examples of other countries that have overcome differences (which is to ignore all the other countries that didn't and couldnt, and to take the concept of Nationhood in medieval Europe and then compare it with the modern concept of the nation, both of which are hugely different).

 

by all means vote as you see fit and I'm not doing this to show you up or change your opinion, it just strikes me as odd.

 

Not quite sure I get you....I'm not saying that there's no social cohesion in Scotland, just that this social cohesion isn't really that much more significant than social cohesion in the UK as a whole. Certainly not great enough to merit separating from the rest of the UK based on.

 

All in my opinion of course. If other people feel differently they're perfectly entitled to do so.

[jambos are go!]

Pro

 

You can stay within the union but still have political independence.

 

Con

 

How can a union within a union equal anything like independence?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

You can keep the union but have political independence. Have a look at the European Union.

 

This will be the same union who puts unelected placemen in Greece and Italy! Very independent.

[2NaFish]

Not quite sure I get you....I'm not saying that there's no social cohesion in Scotland, just that this social cohesion isn't really that much more significant than social cohesion in the UK as a whole. Certainly not great enough to merit separating from the rest of the UK based on.

 

All in my opinion of course. If other people feel differently they're perfectly entitled to do so.

 

might point is you could use the exact same argument to reach the exact opposite conclusion.

[kingantti1874]

You can keep the union but have political independence. Have a look at the European Union.

 

Yep ask the Greeks and the Irish...

[Ulysses]

I thought this was not to be a debate but a statement of pros and cons to avoid the usual slanging matches.

 

These threads will always drift, that's the way it goes.

[kingantti1874]

We are in the eurozone already so no change there. Just what countries are joining together? All countries in the eurozone collect their own taxes and spend them as they see fit. This is something Scotland doesn't and can't do. I just see a Scottish government doing more for the country than a Westminster government who increasingly make policies to benefit London. What suits London doesn't suit other parts of the UK.

 

There is an increase in englishness and the vast majority of folk in England want Scotland to go.

 

If you fail to see the benefits of looking after your own affairs rather than leaving them to someone else then I may find it difficult to convince you otherwise.

 

Going by your principle then Northern Ireland should be ruled from Dublin and not London. I'm sure you'll get the answer to that question if you go over there and ask some folk their thoughts on that

 

Have a look at Belgium?

 

You see this is fundamentally where we differ - I don't believe we are ruled By anyone - my vote counts as

Much as someone from Manchester, Devon or Ipswich.. We have a mutually beneficial partnership which has stood us in good stead for decades... I do not like the politics of the vast majority If this Scotland ... What am I going to do then petition to make Edinburgh independent from the lazy weegies because they don't fit my own perosnal agenda...

[gravydavie]

 

It will never happen,the tartan tories got in because of apathy by the labour voters and that leader? clown iain gray,the snp did what the tories used to do go round old folks homes,sheltered housing places and took people to vote in their cars promising them a "cup of tea"

[Ulysses]

Just words again not backed up by anything but your opinion.

 

You said something inaccurate, and I refuted it. You said something irrelevant to the debate, I drew your attention to it. You asked me why I concluded that Scotland won't vote for independence, I told you. You asked why I had a view of something, I explained.

 

If you say something inaccurate or irrelevant, you're not in a position to complain when someone points that out to you. When you ask someone for the reasons for their opinions, it's a bit pointless to complain when they tell you.

 

Welcome to the World Wide Web.

[southside1874]

Yep ask the Greeks and the Irish...

 

Now thats worth considering the benefits of union to smaller members. It very rarely will ever benefit the smaller members of a union.

[southside1874]

 

This will be the same union who puts unelected placemen in Greece and Italy! Very independent.

 

A lot more independent than Scotland is at the moment though.

[Big D]

as i am aware you are a big supporter of the SNP and independence, could you at least and try to answer the question i have been asking on this thread, or is it one that can't be answered

This question?

"it would be nice if the SNP would publish how much they expect to rasie via tax and where that money would be distributed. think one of the tabloids had a breakdown of your average earnings and where the money goes to, this way allowing the voters a chance to say yes or no to it, rather than voting blindly on it"

 

There is no way of knowing how easily a remainder U.K. would allow Scotland to assume the powers of a normal modern nation after a positive referendum. It could take many years. Giving tax and spending figures for 2018 just now is plainly stupid. Also,there is no guarantee the SNP as a party would form or help to form the Scots' Government. If it was part of a coalition then policy compromise with its partners would be expected.

Personally I suspect business and commercial taxes will fall, stealth taxes will be removed and personal taxation will rise slightly. However, I expect disposable income will increase. The point of independence for a small country is that we can react swiftly to exploit or mitigate against global market conditions. Even Stiglitz can't guess 5 or 6 years into the future.

[kingantti1874]

Now thats worth considering the benefits of union to smaller members. It very rarely will ever benefit the smaller members of a union.

 

Exactly... Yet the SNP want to takes into the euro a far bigger an less mutual union ... Great... If you think we are going to go it alone I think you are Massively optimistic... Your swapping London for Brussels an that's it.. Anyway last my last point in the matter... As others have said its jot the point of this thread... Some other time

[moogsy]

might point is you could use the exact same argument to reach the exact opposite conclusion.

 

The point I'm making is that I probably have just as much in common culturally with people in other constituent countries of the UK as I do with people in other parts of Scotland...I don't see how that could be construed as an argument for Scottish independence

[davemclaren]

Exactly... Yet the SNP want to takes into the euro a far bigger an less mutual union ... Great... If you think we are going to go it alone I think you are Massively optimistic... Your swapping London for Brussels an that's it.. Anyway last my last point in the matter... As others have said its jot the point of this thread... Some other time

 

How could we be swapping London for Brussels when the UK is already in the EU? It's more about cutting out the middleman.

[southside1874]

You see this is fundamentally where we differ - I don't believe we are ruled By anyone - my vote counts as

Much as someone from Manchester, Devon or Ipswich.. We have a mutually beneficial partnership which has stood us in good stead for decades... I do not like the politics of the vast majority If this Scotland ... What am I going to do then petition to make Edinburgh independent from the lazy weegies because they don't fit my own perosnal agenda...

 

How can you say that it has mutually benefited all parties and accept that Scotland has social issues in the same paragraph?

[southside1874]

Exactly... Yet the SNP want to takes into the euro a far bigger an less mutual union ... Great... If you think we are going to go it alone I think you are Massively optimistic... Your swapping London for Brussels an that's it.. Anyway last my last point in the matter... As others have said its jot the point of this thread... Some other time

 

Can you show me that statement from the SNP? No it doesn't exist

[kingantti1874]

I watched him alufe to it on the news last week.. Can't find the direct quote but here is George osborne referring to it..

 

http://m.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/12/independent-scotland-euro-george-osborne?cat=politics&type=article

 

Really - what did you think was going to happen..

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

.........

A lot more independent than Scotland is at the moment though.

That's debatable. Scotland receives a block grant which is spent as the electorate determines. In Greece and Italy, the franchise is redundant. The EU and IMF are calling the shots.

[southside1874]

That's debatable. Scotland receives a block grant which is spent as the electorate determines. In Greece and Italy, the franchise is redundant. The EU and IMF are calling the shots.

 

And you don't think the UK is doing what the money men are asking them to do?

[kingantti1874]

How can you say that it has mutually benefited all parties and accept that Scotland has social issues in the same paragraph?

 

Do independent nations not have social issues? have you never travelled or worked abroad... I have - any there are

Many places worse off than here... Some are better ... Being part of the uk has nothing to do with it... You think independence will fix the issues? Lol

[southside1874]

I watched him alufe to it on the news last week.. Can't find the direct quote but here is George osborne referring to it..

 

http://m.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/12/independent-scotland-euro-george-osborne?cat=politics&type=article

 

Really - what did you think was going to happen..

 

You are quoting George Osborne here but saying its the SNP that has said it?

 

The chancellor's remarks contradicted a declaration by Salmond on Wednesday that an independent Scotland would keep the pound. Asked on Channel Four News what currency an independent Scotland would have, Salmond said: "Keep sterling until such time as the people of Scotland have said otherwise."

 

From that article

[Big D]

I watched him alufe to it on the news last week.. Can't find the direct quote but here is George osborne referring to it..

 

http://m.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/12/independent-scotland-euro-george-osborne?cat=politics&type=article

 

Really - what did you think was going to happen..

The argument that Scotland would be forced into the Euro is predicated on us having to apply for membership. The weight of legal opinion maintains that idea is a nonsense. If WENI is expected to remain in the EU then it must be true that Scotland would remain also. Sterling would remain the currency unless the Scots chose otherwise. interestingly, 30 odd years ago, the McCrone report suggested the Pound Scots would be one of the hardest in the world. That report was of course buried by U.K. Governments which are still coming to terms with being basically bankrupt since about 1975.

[southside1874]

Do independent nations not have social issues? have you never travelled or worked abroad... I have - any there are

Many places worse off than here... Some are better ... Being part of the uk has nothing to do with it... You think independence will fix the issues? Lol

 

What independent countries have similar problems to us then and what are they?

[CJGJ]

Anyone who thinks we could not manage our own affairs is just..................

 

Now as to whether we want or need to -- that is the debate but please don't lower it as if the whole country would descend into chaos.

There are numerous countries of similar size or smaller who manage to get by and some have nowhere near the assets we have in terms of population, education, facilities etc.

 

Ps I take it we all agree it's Scotlands oil 100% if independance comes.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

And you don't think the UK is doing what the money men are asking them to do?

The IMF aren't setting budgets yet though and the UK is using its other get out of jail cards of inflation and QE, both of which aren't available to Eurozone nations.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The argument that Scotland would be forced into the Euro is predicated on us having to apply for membership. The weight of legal opinion maintains that idea is a nonsense. If WENI is expected to remain in the EU then it must be true that Scotland would remain also. Sterling would remain the currency unless the Scots chose otherwise. interestingly, 30 odd years ago, the McCrone report suggested the Pound Scots would be one of the hardest in the world. That report was of course buried by U.K. Governments which are still coming to terms with being basically bankrupt since about 1975.

A Scots pound would make far more sense than sharing sterling or the euro. Scottish independence would be moot if someone else effectively holds the purse strings.

[davemclaren]

A Scots pound would make far more sense than sharing sterling or the euro. Scottish independence would be moot if someone else effectively holds the purse strings.

 

 

I agree. If we were to get independence then I can't see why we wouldn't have our own currency. At least until the fog clears around the Euro...

[Rick Grimes]

You said something inaccurate, and I refuted it. You said something irrelevant to the debate, I drew your attention to it. You asked me why I concluded that Scotland won't vote for independence, I told you. You asked why I had a view of something, I explained.

 

If you say something inaccurate or irrelevant, you're not in a position to complain when someone points that out to you. When you ask someone for the reasons for their opinions, it's a bit pointless to complain when they tell you.

 

Welcome to the World Wide Web.

 

 

2na does this better.

 

Good effort tho, Uly.

[jambopompey]

This question?

"it would be nice if the SNP would publish how much they expect to rasie via tax and where that money would be distributed. think one of the tabloids had a breakdown of your average earnings and where the money goes to, this way allowing the voters a chance to say yes or no to it, rather than voting blindly on it"

 

There is no way of knowing how easily a remainder U.K. would allow Scotland to assume the powers of a normal modern nation after a positive referendum. It could take many years. Giving tax and spending figures for 2018 just now is plainly stupid. Also,there is no guarantee the SNP as a party would form or help to form the Scots' Government. If it was part of a coalition then policy compromise with its partners would be expected.

Personally I suspect business and commercial taxes will fall, stealth taxes will be removed and personal taxation will rise slightly. However, I expect disposable income will increase. The point of independence for a small country is that we can react swiftly to exploit or mitigate against global market conditions. Even Stiglitz can't guess 5 or 6 years into the future.

 

 

so there is not even a basic taxation and spending figures plan outlining the projected income and expenditure of an independent scotland.

 

I would guess that is one of the more vote winners or losers on this issue, how much is it either going to hurt or fill peoples pockets

[kingantti1874]

You are quoting George Osborne here but saying its the SNP that has said it?

 

The chancellor's remarks contradicted a declaration by Salmond on Wednesday that an independent Scotland would keep the pound. Asked on Channel Four News what currency an independent Scotland would have, Salmond said: "Keep sterling until such time as the people of Scotland have said otherwise."

 

From that article

 

Osborne refers to salmond making that statement... And by the way the bank of England an Osborne will decide if we can or cannot retain the pound, and we can't go it alone with our own currency - too expensive ... What's left - the yen :-)

[kingantti1874]

I agree. If we were to get independence then I can't see why we wouldn't have our own currency. At least until the fog clears around the Euro...

 

Then you have little understanding of economics

[kingantti1874]

Ps I take it we all agree it's Scotlands oil 100% if independance comes.

 

Is it? And how much is left? And how much of it has already been sold off and how expensive is the new discovery to extract and how much investment will It take.

 

I the number are as good as we all HOPE they are... Then why have they not been published...

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Osborne refers to salmond making that statement... And by the way the bank of England an Osborne will decide if we can or cannot retain the pound, and we can't go it alone with our own currency - too expensive ... What's left - the yen :-)

How is paper and electronic zeros "too expensive"?

 

How many countries kept the rouble when the USSR broke up?

[3fingersreid]

I don't vote in UK politics as I feel it doesn't make any difference

 

 

Southy mate if you dont vote you really cant complain

[davemclaren]

Then you have little understanding of economics

 

 

Why is that then?

[kingantti1874]

How is paper and electronic zeros "too expensive"?

 

How many countries kept the rouble when the USSR broke up?

 

It's already been disuse at length by economists who concluded that staying in the pound or joining the euro were the only 2 feasible options - I wouldn't imagine setting up a central Bank wouldn't be overly simplistic...in fact - in that example - I know it wouldnt

[The Comedian]

Is it? And how much is left? And how much of it has already been sold off and how expensive is the new discovery to extract and how much investment will It take.

 

I the number are as good as we all HOPE they are... Then why have they not been published...

 

I have seen this type of comment a few times, that we have sold of our oil. Although not you, it usually infers that we won't make anything from it so can't count on it when independent.

 

Putting my understanding of this out there so that perhaps it can be corrected but it's all about where the tax goes. It doesn't matter who holds the drilling permit, who found it or where the investment came from to get it. All new wells found in our waters post-indepenence will see the licences bought in Edinburgh to drill and all extracted oil and the tax with it flows into our coffers.

 

Presently extracted oil which is flowing out will see the tax switched off to Westminster and deposited into Edinburgh or at the least our share of it.

 

My view on it anyway, I think Westminster are terrified of losing their golden goose but thats just me.

[Maiden Gorgie]

Excellent thread, nice one OP.

 

PRO

 

The economy is an absolute shed - maybe a wee bit of micro management is needed to give the UK, as it is today, a boost. I can't help feeling that the UK as it is governed at the moment is lopsided. How can an economic/fiscal policy made in London be applicable to a wee fishing village in Scotland.

Scotland is very different to England - socially, economically and mentally.

 

It could be as good for England as it is for Scotland.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

It's already been disuse at length by economists who concluded that staying in the pound or joining the euro were the only 2 feasible options - I wouldn't imagine setting up a central Bank wouldn't be overly simplistic...in fact - in that example - I know it wouldnt

A Scots pound is more than feasible. The real issue is selling Scottish sovereign debt, which will be rated lower than AAA and therefore will incur a higher interest rate.

[Big D]

so there is not even a basic taxation and spending figures plan outlining the projected income and expenditure of an independent scotland.

 

I would guess that is one of the more vote winners or losers on this issue, how much is it either going to hurt or fill peoples pockets

What is the combined disposable income figure for your household in 2018. To the nearest tenner will be fine.

[Felix Lighter]

A Scots pound is more than feasible. The real issue is selling Scottish sovereign debt, which will be rated lower than AAA and therefore will incur a higher interest rate.

 

Geoff, how would this compare with the Argentinian and Icelandic governments selling bonds again after defaulting on their debt, despite the warnings from the scaremongers?

[jambopompey]

What is the combined disposable income figure for your household in 2018. To the nearest tenner will be fine.

 

based on todays income and expenditure roughly a few hundred each month. also allowing for any rises in outgoings such as rent and pay rises.

 

but i am not asking for people to vote for me, what the SNP are asking people to vote on is should Scotland become independent from the UK, one of the big issues is how much we will pay in taxes and where that money is distributed, but as yet the SNP have not even given any incline of what will be raised and spent, that is a big ask of faith that if people vote yes they have no idea if it will affect them in the pocket (either more or less in their pocket), or have the SNP done the figures and they don't look good, but hope they get their wish and hope to juggle the books when the time comes.

[davemclaren]

based on todays income and expenditure roughly a few hundred each month. also allowing for any rises in outgoings such as rent and pay rises.

 

but i am not asking for people to vote for me, what the SNP are asking people to vote on is should Scotland become independent from the UK, one of the big issues is how much we will pay in taxes and where that money is distributed, but as yet the SNP have not even given any incline of what will be raised and spent, that is a big ask of faith that if people vote yes they have no idea if it will affect them in the pocket (either more or less in their pocket), or have the SNP done the figures and they don't look good, but hope they get their wish and hope to juggle the books when the time comes.

 

 

The SNP may not be the governing party even if independence was achieved. The projections that any government ( UK, Scottish, anywhere... ) come up with should be taken with a pinch of salt, and that goes for both sides in this debate as well.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Geoff, how would this compare with the Argentinian and Icelandic governments selling bonds again after defaulting on their debt, despite the warnings from the scaremongers?

Simple. There is no such thing as a bad risk, there is such a thing as a bad premium. In other words, there will be a market, provided you pay enough interest.

[Felix Lighter]

Simple. There is no such thing as a bad risk, there is such a thing as a bad premium. In other words, there will be a market, provided you pay enough interest.

 

Because loss is socialised and the tax payer picks up the tab when the speculators get it wrong?

[Big D]

based on todays income and expenditure roughly a few hundred each month. also allowing for any rises in outgoings such as rent and pay rises.

 

but i am not asking for people to vote for me, what the SNP are asking people to vote on is should Scotland become independent from the UK, one of the big issues is how much we will pay in taxes and where that money is distributed, but as yet the SNP have not even given any incline of what will be raised and spent, that is a big ask of faith that if people vote yes they have no idea if it will affect them in the pocket (either more or less in their pocket), or have the SNP done the figures and they don't look good, but hope they get their wish and hope to juggle the books when the time comes.

I refer the gentleman to my previous answer.

You asked for a reply and have been given them, by more than one poster. You persist in asking the same question though. Do you not like the answers? Over the last five years, Scotland has been a net contributer to the U.K. exchequer. The U.K. continues to run at a deficit and now has unsustainable borrowings. So, the people of Scotland will vote for a government who they feel will make best use of this comparative economic advantage for the sustainable well-being of the majority of Scots.