Independence PROS and CONS

[Gizmo]

Seen a couple of threads on other forums I'm on (on the topic of Scottish Independence) get shut due to infighting and/or hostility from both sides of the border. Thought it might be good to come at this topic from another angle.

 

So I don't want any fighting or slagging or people desperately trying to change each others minds as that just leads to bitterness and entrenchment - I'd just like posters to post anything they personally believe would be a Pro or Con in respect of Scotland going independent or staying in the Union. If you believe something posted as a CON isn't then simply post a PRO in retort rather than attacking the sentiment/poster. Also you can post for either side of the debate or both if you choose.

 

I think for a lot of people who's minds aren't made up, and even those who are certain of their position but maybe have decided on an emotional basis rather than considering fully all of the facts, this thread could give some good food for thought - there are a lot of things to consider before voting on what is quite a momentous question. And it could cut through the politicking which will not necessarily be honest on either side of the debate!

 

I'll start with this:

 

CON - the cost of disentangling our infrastructure from the UK could be very, very expensive and complex.

[The Doctor]

PRO

 

We'll never again have to be ruled by an Eton educated, English Tory who's interest in Scotland begins and ends with raping it for all it's worth.

(Although Blair was a Fettes educated, Scottish Socialist/Tory/Thatcherite whose promises we'd probably all have fallen for anyway, so what's the difference?)

 

Alex Salmond will have no further purpose, for some of you that should be reason enough in itself.

I like 'Eck.

[Jamdub]

PRO

 

We'll never again have to be ruled by an Eton educated, English Tory who's interest in Scotland begins and ends with raping it for all it's worth.

(Although Blair was a Fettes educated, Scottish Socialist/Tory/Thatcherite whose promises we'd probably all have fallen for anyway, so what's the difference?)

 

Alex Salmond will have no further purpose, for some of you that should be reason enough in itself.

I like 'Eck.

 

[Moriarty]

CON

 

The SNP have as yet failed to address the majority of key questions on independence.

[Rand Paul's Ray Bans]

PRO

Scotland will be able to establish a realistic, constructive foreign policy, rather than being attached to America's FP (through being a part of Britian).

 

CON

 

The SNP have as yet failed to address the majority of key questions on independence.

 

Fully agree with this.

[SpikeDudley]

PRO - more jobs for everyone as everything which is currently done in London will have to be duplicated and moved to Edinburgh

[Boris]

CON

 

The SNP have as yet failed to address the majority of key questions on independence.

 

Agree too, however on the flipside still to hear exactly what the benefits of Union actually are.

 

PRO

Scotland will be able to establish a realistic, constructive foreign policy, rather than being attached to America's FP (through being a part of Britian).

 

 

Agree.

[Coco]

CON

 

The consultation on the referendum outlines a situation where people will be asked to vote without any idea of what the outcome of negotiations between the Parliaments on assets/liabilities/shared issues/conflicts etc will be. It will be a blind vote.

[Coco]

PRO

 

After the free mince policy era ends there would be an opportunity for Scotland to become a high growth/high income country.

[Boris]

CON

 

The consultation on the referendum outlines a situation where people will be asked to vote without any idea of what the outcome of negotiations between the Parliaments on assets/liabilities/shared issues/conflicts etc will be. It will be a blind vote.

 

 

A very good point.

[Rick Grimes]

CON - the cost of disentangling our infrastructure from the UK could be very, very expensive and complex.

 

 

PRO - The complexity of the job in disentangling our infrastructure from the UK is bound to create a lot of jobs. There would also be additional benefit of building our own infrastructure in a more sound & fair way learning lessons from mistakes that have been made in the past.

 

 

 

 

FWIW, I'm not sure either side of the debate will ever be able to definitively state that we'd be better off one way or the other, financially at least. There's too many variables on how the respective governments would act & decisions they could make post referendum for it ever to be that clear.

 

The main benefit for me would be to inject a bit more positivity & action into our national psyche. As it stands we're the chippy wee brother who never takes full responsibility for ourselves. It would be nice to have a more positive, can-do attitude instead of the sort of viewpoint that assumes that Eton educated career politicians are automatically better than the working class equivalent up here who are more within our ken.

[Coco]

CON

 

There are no policies or levers unavailable to the current devolution/Westminster setup which would be available to a new Scotland. It is the quality of decisions which matters not where the decisions or by whom the decisions are made.

[Coco]

PRO

 

It is possible that an independent Scotland could provide an environment for a return to Scottish elitism in education/entrepreneurship etc. Animal spirits could mean a return to confidence rather than cringe.

[Rick Grimes]

CON

 

There are no policies or levers unavailable to the current devolution/Westminster setup which would be available to a new Scotland. It is the quality of decisions which matters not where the decisions or by whom the decisions are made.

 

 

Not sure on this one - Trident spending, for example, is something with pretty poor approval rates in Scotland. We'd be able to cancel that if we decided to.

[Jambo66]

PRO - more jobs for everyone as everything which is currently done in London will have to be duplicated and moved to Edinburgh

 

CON - more public sector jobs for everyone as everything which is currently done in London will have to be duplicated and moved to Edinburgh.

[The Comedian]

Pro.

 

We keep all our resources for ourselves.

[Jambo66]

Pro.

 

We keep all our resources for ourselves.

 

CON - our principal resources of oil and gas have mostly been sold already and the money received has been spent.

[Jambo66]

Agree too, however on the flipside still to hear exactly what the benefits of Union actually are.

 

 

ONe of the main benefits is along the lines of "better the devil you know..." Not sure if that is a PRO or a CON though!

[Guest Dipped Flake]

CON - our principal resources of oil and gas have mostly been sold already and the money received has been spent.

 

PRO - new field being discobered all the time. Plus new technology will allow fields that were deemed too difficuilt to explore can now be exploited

[Marvin]

PRO - English tax payers money stays in England.

Con - you will need a passport to cross the Scottish / English border.

Con (or Pro) Scotland has to join the flagging Euro.

Con - Brussels refuses Scotland entry into the European Union

 

note all above are a little extreme but food for thought non the less.

 

 

Btw I am a turncoat as you can see from my location

[Jambo66]

PRO - English tax payers money stays in England.

Con - you will need a passport to cross the Scottish / English border.

Con (or Pro) Scotland has to join the flagging Euro.

Con - Brussels refuses Scotland entry into the European Union

 

note all above are a little extreme but food for thought non the less.

 

 

Btw I am a turncoat as you can see from my location

 

PRO - Brussels refuses Scotland entry into the European Union

[Guest C00l K1d]

CON

 

our pandas belong go britain

[Rick Grimes]

Con - you will need a passport to cross the Scottish / English border.

 

 

Its extremely unlikely that would be the case

 

 

Con - Brussels refuses Scotland entry into the European Union

 

 

The EU lawyers have already said we'd be in automatically as a successor state.

[The Comedian]

CON - our principal resources of oil and gas have mostly been sold already and the money received has been spent.

 

And the tax?

[Guest C00l K1d]

I really know nothing about this and this might sound daft but would england wales and ireland not need to also vote tjhe SNP in?

[Rick Grimes]

I really know nothing about this and this might sound daft but would england wales and ireland not need to also vote tjhe SNP in?

 

 

Its not really a daft question, so don't worry. Effectively if we want to go on our own and have full blown independence then its up to us alone to decide. If we want the Devo Max option of staying in the union but have most powers transferred to the Scottish Parliament then its only right & proper that the rest of the UK gets a say as well.

[IMA MAROON]

CON

 

The MSPs

 

It would be like letting a Miners Club Committee run a country

[jambopompey]

PRO - The complexity of the job in disentangling our infrastructure from the UK is bound to create a lot of jobs. There would also be additional benefit of building our own infrastructure in a more sound & fair way learning lessons from mistakes that have been made in the past.

 

 

 

 

FWIW, I'm not sure either side of the debate will ever be able to definitively state that we'd be better off one way or the other, financially at least. There's too many variables on how the respective governments would act & decisions they could make post referendum for it ever to be that clear.

 

The main benefit for me would be to inject a bit more positivity & action into our national psyche. As it stands we're the chippy wee brother who never takes full responsibility for ourselves. It would be nice to have a more positive, can-do attitude instead of the sort of viewpoint that assumes that Eton educated career politicians are automatically better than the working class equivalent up here who are more within our ken.

 

it would be nice if the SNP would publish how much they expect to rasie via tax and where that money would be distributed. think one of the tabloids had a breakdown of your average earnings and where the money goes to, this way allowing the voters a chance to say yes or no to it, rather than voting blindly on it

[Rick Grimes]

It would be nice to have a more positive, can-do attitude instead of the sort of viewpoint that assumes that Eton educated career politicians are automatically better than the working class equivalent up here who are more within our ken.

 

 

CON

 

The MSPs

 

It would be like letting a Miners Club Committee run a country

 

 

 

 

[kingantti1874]

We will be a tiny voiceless cog at the table in Brussels - if the undeniably charismatic salmond disappeared tomorrow this wouldn't make it off the ground - that tells you all you need to know about the basis of the proposal... It's a bad joke, an unnecessary gamble with our futures and a mistake which we will not be able to undo..

 

Well I'll be able to undo it becuase if it all goes pete tong I'll be outta here

[DC_92]

 

]Con - you will need a passport to cross the Scottish / English border.

 

 

Clearly you have never traveled in Europe.

 

Con (or Pro) Scotland has to join the flagging Euro.

 

Does it?

 

Con - Brussels refuses Scotland entry into the European Union

 

Why would it?

 

In your scenario you have us forced into joining the Euro and also denied membership of the EU at the same time.

 

 

 

[Radio Ga Ga]

PRO - more jobs for everyone as everything which is currently done in London will have to be duplicated and moved to Edinburgh

CON - At what cost ?

[Gizmo]

We will be a tiny voiceless cog at the table in Brussels - if the undeniably charismatic salmond disappeared tomorrow this wouldn't make it off the ground - that tells you all you need to know about the basis of the proposal... It's a bad joke, an unnecessary gamble with our futures and a mistake which we will not be able to undo..

 

Well I'll be able to undo it becuase if it all goes pete tong I'll be outta here

 

That's one of the reasons this is a useful thread as it can side-step the politicians who, if good, could get a lot of people to vote for anything! Alternatively, the message for the status quo could get lost under relentless negativity.

 

PRO (on the referendum) Gives the people of Scotland a say in a Union that was not given when the Union was entered into on our descendants behalf.

[Sarah O]

PRO - We'll all be loaded, rolling in cash. Absolutely bloody minted.

 

CON - None

[Sarah O]

PRO - English tax payers money stays in England.

Con - you will need a passport to cross the Scottish / English border.

Con (or Pro) Scotland has to join the flagging Euro.

Con - Brussels refuses Scotland entry into the European Union

 

note all above are a little extreme but food for thought non the less.

 

 

Btw I am a turncoat as you can see from my location

 

Your drug abuse has obviously warped your mind!

 

Passport to go to England indeed.

 

[Hood09]

i was an avid pro independent supporter when i was younger now i have grown up (29) and have properly live for a while paying taxes and earning a crust i would never support independence. I am quite a decent earner for my age and i can safely say that if we were to be independent i would be moving down south asap.

 

Salmond does not have a clue! Tax increases for more public sector jobs would be the only outcome - public sector is a burden on society as it is.

 

Don't get fooled by the braveheart chat and think about it properly.

[Happy Hearts]

i was an avid pro independent supporter when i was younger now i have grown up (29) and have properly live for a while paying taxes and earning a crust i would never support independence. I am quite a decent earner for my age and i can safely say that if we were to be independent i would be moving down south asap.

 

Salmond does not have a clue! Tax increases for more public sector jobs would be the only outcome - public sector is a burden on society as it is.

 

Don't get fooled by the braveheart chat and think about it properly.

 

I could have written this myself. Agree with everything you have said.

[jambopompey]

i was an avid pro independent supporter when i was younger now i have grown up (29) and have properly live for a while paying taxes and earning a crust i would never support independence. I am quite a decent earner for my age and i can safely say that if we were to be independent i would be moving down south asap.

 

Salmond does not have a clue! Tax increases for more public sector jobs would be the only outcome - public sector is a burden on society as it is.

 

Don't get fooled by the braveheart chat and think about it properly.

 

 

with all the posturing he is doing he has still to come out and say how we pay for everything, the north sea revenue seems to be paying for everything and we will all be well off, if so please come out with the figures to show us it, if not it will be voting blind

[Happy Hearts]

I could have written this myself. Agree with everything you have said.

 

Apart from the bit about being an supporter when I was younger.

[AWM]

i was an avid pro independent supporter when i was younger now i have grown up (29) and have properly live for a while paying taxes and earning a crust i would never support independence. I am quite a decent earner for my age and i can safely say that if we were to be independent i would be moving down south asap.

 

Salmond does not have a clue! Tax increases for more public sector jobs would be the only outcome - public sector is a burden on society as it is.

 

Don't get fooled by the braveheart chat and think about it properly.

 

[Sarah O]

with all the posturing he is doing he has still to come out and say how we pay for everything, the north sea revenue seems to be paying for everything and we will all be well off, if so please come out with the figures to show us it, if not it will be voting blind

 

But why do the Unionist parties want to keep us if we are such a drain?

[Deek]

This is a copy of a facebook chat with two English friends yesterday.

 

Me I wonder why the English care about a weather ridden country of 5,000,000 people.

 

What do we provide that you want?, apart from quality members of staff? And under EU rules you can still have us!

 

English friend 1 Scottish regiments. The rest of you can get tae ****!

 

English friend 1 Err, that should be "Scottish regiment" actually - showing my age now! But in all seriousness, it does seem that Salmond just wants a bigger trainset and will use lowest-common denominator identity politics and cheating to get his way. And if Scots go, we will also have to grant independence to Peckham.

 

Me I thought it was Tooting that had a liberation army? But can you answer the question about why the English want Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom?

Scottish regiments will continue to exist and would no doubt assist in NATO deployments.

 

English friend 1 Doubt it - Scottish Army will become a politically spineless and irrelevant entity like the Irish Army. My main reason is that untangling Scotland from UK will be a massive ballache - care to take on RBS with its debts? - and a huge waste of effort for what it essentially a vanity project. Bit like Devolution really, but ho hum..

 

Me So why do the English want Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom?

 

English friend 2 I think the correct question to ask is actually "why do the Scottish want independence?". What do you expect to gain from being an independent country? How will you support your economy? What will form the basis of your GDP?

 

The sooner this idiot actually adds up how much tax/income (GDP) the Scottish will generate for themselves and subtracts the sum of money it would cost to run Scotland independently from this value. The quicker he will realise that it will not work.

 

English friend 2 No, the UK has oil reserves. Just because Scotland decides it wants to be free doesn't mean that it will get to take away resources which have been realised with investment from UK taxpayers.

 

There's only so much revenue from whiskey and haggis. That would barely cover your healthcare bills.

English friend 1 Deek, stop being such a female! Like a bird who storms off in a huff - you say "why are you leaving, love?" and she comes back with "tell me why you want me to stay".

 

Me Its negative answers I am receiving.I actually think the English are running scared. Why do you want Scotland to remain part of the United Kingdom? What benefit do the English, Welsh and Northern Irish obtain?

Scotland has the oil reserves a multi billion pound whisky industry. A fantastic tourist industry, many other high tech computing and software industries with many foreign companies investing here.

We are a socialist country by nature and look after each,If it means extra taxation to do this, then why not. What benefit do we obtain by remaining part of the United Kingdom is the question I ask.

Security from the armed forces? I dont think we need that. After all the only country we have been at war with the last 1000 years is emm the English.

 

English friend 1 Note that our replies are not "negative" to Scotland but to the change to the status-quo. Your list of Scottish successes have all been achieved while Scotland was in the Union, achieved with the financial backing of Westminster. (i.e low interest rates, Gilts, and direct funding in many cases). Also you're presenting feudal conflicts in a 'nationalist' guise, when actually, by the time nationalism was invented Scotland was in the Union. Anyway, Im sure Salmond will paint you a picture of Scot-Switzerland in 5 years time, but when have socialists ever delivered that?

 

English friend 2 Scotland DOES NOT HAVE OIL RESERVES. The UK has oil reserves, which lay off the Scottish coast. Just because Scotland may decide to seek independence doesn't mean they have automatic rights to north sea oil/gas reserves. They have had investment from Scottish, English, welsh and Irish tax payers (UK tax payers) to find them and set up methods of extraction/processing.

 

It's funny you mention about being socialist. Maybe salmon should mention your comment about looking after eachother and paying more tax to support independence. I wonder how much support he'd get then???

 

So you're going to support a free health care system, and all other modern conveniences based on whiskey sales and a few high tech industries. Oh, and tourism?

 

Maybe you could set up your own bank again, that went so well for you recently. Who bailed that out, the UK tax payer. If you was independent, you'd be broke now.

 

Me I have actually never said I would vote for independence but am playing devils advocate. I wanted somebody English to tell why it would be of benefit for Scotland to remain in the United Kingdom and what benefit it would be to the rest of the United Kingdom.

 

Why does a country of 60 million want a wind and rain ravaged country if 5 million to remain within?

 

English friend 1 Good question! But by the same token, why don't we eject Lewisham, Tooting and Peckham from the UK? We'd save billions! The point is that unlike those, arrangement with Scotland are largely mutually beneficial. Benefits are not only financial in nature - there is the idea of UK territorial integrity for one thing. The cultural stuff. Unfortunately, Scotland produces more politicians than it can consume and most of them ply their horrible trade south of the border!

[jambopompey]

But why do the Unionist parties want to keep us if we are such a drain?

 

you would be best to ask a member of a unionist party, i am undecided on where my vote will go, but if the pro independence groups can't show some figures that are backed up that there is a economic future in independence and that taxes will not shoot up to cover the cost of everything, then it will be a no vote from me.

[FWJ]

CON: Our national broadcaster would be BBC Scotland....

[Gizmo]

I don't know the exact figures for taxation but I do know that the GDP per head is higher in Scotland than the UK, which suggests that we generate more than our fair share of wealth to the UK.

 

The figures I'm most interested in are what we would need to spend that are currently covered by the UK pot - defence, welfare etc.

 

Whether we will be party to clear figures without any political bias from either side remains to be seen - I know that the GERS figures have been shown to be less than accurate.

[Cardiac Rucksack]

CON - Scotlands current benefit levels. We seem to have a disproportionate amount of people who are not interested in working and are happy to live on handouts.

 

The actual figures might not support this but it certainly.feels that way.

[Vic Vespa]

PRO's = Freedom

CONS = They clueless Labour twats might form a goverment.

[jambos are go!]

Con

 

UK orientated public sector jobs in areas like defence, national savings,tax Collection, and Student Loans will be moved across the Border. There is also likely to be quite a lot of Quangos and small public sector bodies. financial

sector businesses like the Banks will move jobs over the Border.

 

Pro we will some back but far fewer given that we are a much smaller country and economy.

[Rick Grimes]

Con

 

UK orientated public sector jobs in areas like defence, national savings,tax Collection, and Student Loans will be moved across the Border. There is also likely to be quite a lot of Quangos and small public sector bodies. financial

sector businesses like the Banks will move jobs over the Border.

Pro we will some back but far fewer given that we are a much smaller country and economy.

 

 

 

Financial sector companies will base themselves wherever there is a good pool of competitively priced labour for the industry they're in. Hence why Virgin Money & Tesco are currently creating loads of jobs in Edinburgh.

 

The entire myth about companies packing up & moving south of the border is scaremongering nonsense.

[I P Knightley]

PRO - The complexity of the job in disentangling our infrastructure from the UK is bound to create a lot of jobs. There would also be additional benefit of building our own infrastructure in a more sound & fair way learning lessons from mistakes that have been made in the past.

 

 

A whole load of jobs that create nothing beyond the jobs themselves which can only be temporary.

 

Apologies for not having read all posts and, in advance, if I repeat anything already said. Viewpoint taken as a Scot living & working in London with no intention of relocating to Scotland - even less so if it were independent:

 

A "Scottish Broadcasting Corporation" - a CON, surely?

 

It's a sum of over ?1,000 a head that Westminster supports Scotland over the rest of the UK. Gone = CON.

 

A squabble over whether you'll have Flower of Scotland or Scotland the Brave as an anthem. CON

 

When it all goes PIIGS, an even greater national chip on the shoulder. CON

 

Absolutely no justification for the Old Firm upping sticks and becoming part of a "British" League. You're definitely stuck with them for ever. CON.

 

 

Be careful what you wish for, chaps.