Another major blow to SNP tax plans

[Big D]

1. They wouldn't be neccessarily.

2. Scotland is a very fractured country with many micro-cultures.

3. Arguably the UK's global power was secured through the work of Scots, English, Irish and Welsh so i suppose you could argue that as a an island if we all pull together we make a better deal for ourselves. Certainly prior to the Union Scotland was economically speaking rather poor.

 

You also seem to equate being Scottish and being a Nationalist/advocate of independence as mutually exclusive. I may have misinterpreted what you wrote, however there are many people who are happy to be both British and Scottish.

 

One could also argue the other way and move on further from Scotland and ask why Edinburgh shouldn't declare UDI and set itself up as a City State a la Monaco. We wouldn't have to subsidise Glasgow for a start!

 

Thanks for the answers. I am trying to move the debate beyond the standard Unionist/Red Top/BBC propaganda. You do not have to be a SNP supporter to support Independence; so can we move on from the Salmond bashing.

I agree with your answer to question 1. It therefore intrigues me why the Scottish (sic) Tories are so against independence. They would have a very good chance of helping to form a Scottish government.

If Scotland is a fractured country, is that not due to the divide and rule policies of central government. Most Independent European Nations have diverse, disparate cultures. They thrive in nations that can take their own decisions on the best way to use the nation's resources to help all the people.

The British Empire was built on an over reliance of Scots' brains and blood. The Empire is over for everyone else though. What I still don't understand is why people argue that Scotland cannot make it's own decisions for the benefit of its people. Wealth is not the universal panacea. People are wealthier now than ever, and less happy. Yes, we were relatively poor before Darien, which is why the scheme was proposed. I hope you are aware of the English government's involvement in the eventual failure of the scheme, and therefore the unseemly hasty Union which followed a decade later. But my question remains, what can the UK do, that we can't do for ourselves?

[leginten]

2. Scotland is a very fractured country with many micro-cultures.

 

 

Countries which are considerably more fractured than Scotland in terms of micro-cultures, such as Belgium and Switzerland (with its four official languages) to name but a couple, display a remarkable lack of enthusiasm for having their affairs decided from elsewhere.

 

I used to think that Scotland was a very complex country, both culturally and historically. I've revised my opinion on that. Our topography is a bit of a bugger, but hardly an insurmountable problem.

[doctor jambo]

The Tories campaign on the basis that rich people should pay less tax. The Council Tax results in the rich paying less tax. The Tories are, therefore, behind it.

 

 

NO, the council tax means the rich pay the same tax, not less

And you pay dependent on the value of your property, so, in fact they pay more already

What would be fairer is a tax system that gives you tax breaks for having children and a dependent spouse ie, taxes free income

A single person on ?30k per annum is better off than a married one with two kids on ?60k, so why tax the higher earner more when he has less "free money"

[Ribble]

Yes, we were relatively poor before Darien, which is why the scheme was proposed. I hope you are aware of the English government's involvement in the eventual failure of the scheme, and therefore the unseemly hasty Union which followed a decade later. But my question remains, what can the UK do, that we can't do for ourselves?

 

I am fully aware of Englands part in the downfall of the Darien scheme. Firstly English investors pulled out of the scheme because they didn't wan't to anger the spanish whose land we were attempting to colonise and secondly once in Panama they didn't sell us supplies, again due to not wanting to offend the Spanish. Did we really expect England to go to war with spain over a Scottish scheme? The downfall of the darien scheme falls much more strongly at our own feet to be honest! We didn't take enough supplies to begin with, we weren't prepared for the conditions and climate in panama, once fever had set in in deaths had risen to 10 a day we were too late in getting word home so a second expedition set off with 1200 people on board, most of whom died and only a few hundred returned to scotland. The ensuing Union boosted the scottish economy more than could have ever been imagined which was a good job as the failed darien scheme had cost one fifth of all the money in scotland.

 

As for what can the UK do that Scotland alone cannot? Not much to be honest but historically together we do everything better.

 

For further reading try 'The Scottish Enlightenment, The Scot's Invention of the Modern World' by Arthur Herman. It's a very in depth study of Scottish History.

[jammyheart]

The biggest problem Scotland had was that Labour was in power for far to long and the scots people are wakening up to the fact that they did not do enough for Scotland by puting us first instead of just layin down to the westminster goverment every time.

Every time on the news you hear Scotland has the worst heart disease ,dental, overweight, crime and so on, oh! and just yesterday beaches;) so i suppose all this is down to the SNP in 1 year :)and not Labour bein in power in Scotland for decades and decades

[leginten]

Every time on the news you hear Scotland has the worst heart disease ,dental, overweight, crime and so on, oh! and just yesterday beaches;) so i suppose all this is down to the SNP in 1 year :)and not Labour bein in power in Scotland for decades and decades

 

The problems you mention are a scandal. To them I would add poor education, housing, the general environmental problem (is there a more litter-strewn country in Europe?), and a lack of personal and civic pride. All of these problems can be ascribed to the acceptance of mediocrity in all walks of life for too long and the abdication of personal responsibility in a country which has lost the idea of what it means to be a good citizen. Something needs to change drastically.

[Coco]

The problems you mention are a scandal. To them I would add poor education, housing, the general environmental problem (is there a more litter-strewn country in Europe?), and a lack of personal and civic pride. All of these problems can be ascribed to the acceptance of mediocrity in all walks of life for too long and the abdication of personal responsibility in a country which has lost the idea of what it means to be a good citizen. Something needs to change drastically.

 

It is possible that these things could change if we had a Government in Scotland which was not geared solely to handouts and public job creation schemes.

 

The Scots have lost respect in themselves and their own nation in the last 60 years. I don't think that this is unconnected with the rise in size of Government interference in people's lives.

[Big D]

Agreed, ultimately Darien failed due to poor planning by the Scots, and failure to understand the politics between Spain and England. And England's worry of the danger to them of a rich pro French nation on their northern border. However, your second point that that we achieve more together is impossible to verify. We can only use the 300 year history of the union, where Scotland prospered relatively in the first hundred. I could suggest that we have underperformed for the last 200 but that too is a matter of conjecture. I could suggest that Englands massive growth in GDP and population compared to Scotland's over this time suggests that we do not grow together in the Union. Why don't we have an independent Scotland and settle the arguement.

[leginten]

It is possible that these things could change if we had a Government in Scotland which was not geared solely to handouts and public job creation schemes.

 

The Scots have lost respect in themselves and their own nation in the last 60 years. I don't think that this is unconnected with the rise in size of Government interference in people's lives.

 

I agree with what you say. I wasn't intending to make a party political point in my Daily Mail-esque rant, but I am in no doubt that the prevailing political culture in Scotland is inextricably linked to our failure on so many levels.

[Ribble]

Agreed, ultimately Darien failed due to poor planning by the Scots, and failure to understand the politics between Spain and England. And England's worry of the danger to them of a rich pro French nation on their northern border. However, your second point that that we achieve more together is impossible to verify. We can only use the 300 year history of the union, where Scotland prospered relatively in the first hundred. I could suggest that we have underperformed for the last 200 but that too is a matter of conjecture. I could suggest that Englands massive growth in GDP and population compared to Scotland's over this time suggests that we do not grow together in the Union. Why don't we have an independent Scotland and settle the arguement.

 

Yeah we could settle the arguement however what happens if like history might suggest, our economy crashes ?? Do we run with the begging bowl back to england and try to revive the union?? Are our lives so bad currently that we feel the need to take this risk for further riches??

[Boaby Ewing]

Yeah we could settle the arguement however what happens if like history might suggest, our economy crashes ?? Do we run with the begging bowl back to england and try to revive the union?? Are our lives so bad currently that we feel the need to take this risk for further riches??

 

So you're saying you're scared.

 

Nice of you to clarify.

[Ribble]

Yeah I am scared of what might happen to this country if it is run by the Scottish Parliament! To be fair Holyrood hardly has a massive list of demonstratable achievements to date, does it?