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How Would You Vote in IndyRef2?

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Smithee
32 minutes ago, Boris said:

 

With you there SwindonJambo.

 

Neither do their side/opinion any favours and a consequence is that people are turned off by the whole thing, which is a great pity as it diminishes our democracy.

Verbage

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frankblack
16 hours ago, Boris said:

 

Fair enough, however the question was in respect of MPs, rather than MSPs. Sorry, don't mean to sound churlish, but Frank Black did say MPs.

 

Oh, fair enough.  I did say I read something quite some time ago and wouldn't know where to look for it.

 

The point about the SNP being united anti-Brexit despite holding differing views still stands.  As much as people (quite rightly) ridicule some Tory MPs for speaking out against their party, at least they show they aren't robots.

 

I'd like to think that the MPs and MSPs I vote for will be opinionated and principled, even if it is against party lines.

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Boris
46 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Oh, fair enough.  I did say I read something quite some time ago and wouldn't know where to look for it.

 

The point about the SNP being united anti-Brexit despite holding differing views still stands.  As much as people (quite rightly) ridicule some Tory MPs for speaking out against their party, at least they show they aren't robots.

 

I'd like to think that the MPs and MSPs I vote for will be opinionated and principled, even if it is against party lines.

 

But...ach...you know what, life's too short.

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rudi must stay

No - like before

 

We couldn't survive on our own strongly IMO and I wouldn't like our relations with England and the rest of Britain after it. We need each other, although the recent referendums were poor moves that I hope we can somehow undo.

 

The refendums absolutely help the SNP, but I still don't think we'd be better off on our own.

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jack D and coke
20 minutes ago, rudi must stay said:

No - like before

 

We couldn't survive on our own strongly IMO and I wouldn't like our relations with England and the rest of Britain after it. We need each other, although the recent referendums were poor moves that I hope we can somehow undo.

 

The refendums absolutely help the SNP, but I still don't think we'd be better off on our own.

Why couldn’t we survive? What makes more sense about 5 million looking after 5 million as opposed to 60 million looking after 60 million?

Why would relations be bad? Britain has parted company with dozens of countries and the relationship is in the main pretty good, why would it be any different? Do you think/fear they would punish us? If so you believe they do things in our best interests atm? 

 

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Roxy Hearts
1 hour ago, rudi must stay said:

No - like before

 

We couldn't survive on our own strongly IMO and I wouldn't like our relations with England and the rest of Britain after it. We need each other, although the recent referendums were poor moves that I hope we can somehow undo.

 

The refendums absolutely help the SNP, but I still don't think we'd be better off on our own.

You must be a quivering wreck. Ask yourself why? What has the UK done for you to feel that way? 

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rudi must stay
2 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

Why couldn’t we survive? What makes more sense about 5 million looking after 5 million as opposed to 60 million looking after 60 million?

Why would relations be bad? Britain has parted company with dozens of countries and the relationship is in the main pretty good, why would it be any different? Do you think/fear they would punish us? If so you believe they do things in our best interests atm? 

 

 

Yes but we don't share an island with them. Alot of major businesses said they would pull out of Scotland if we went independent last referendum, and that was no threat. We would be a new country with a new economy that's totally unproven. I don't see whats so wrong with the deal we have, our parliament has a say in most issues aside from foreign affairs, not bad for a country of 5 million.

 

Look at the royal family, look at the tourism and what being part of Britain brings. We'd be cutting ourselves from all of that. It would be stupid IMO

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frankblack
1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said:

You must be a quivering wreck. Ask yourself why? What has the UK done for you to feel that way? 

 

The question is actually what will the SNP guarantee will happen to improve our standard of living post independence.

 

So far they are kicking all the difficult decisions into the long grass and crossing their fingers.   All talk, no detail, no actions.

 

 

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rudi must stay
1 hour ago, Roxy Hearts said:

You must be a quivering wreck. Ask yourself why? What has the UK done for you to feel that way? 

 

I do fear the relationship definatly. They could be awful, and as I said in my previous post we aren't under the thumb of England and Westminster. A few more devolved issues (think that's what they call them, been a while since I did modern studies and had to remember all this) and that would be even better.

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Cade

So, folk are still arguing if Scotland COULD make it alone, even though most intelligent people agree it could.

 

The debate is now SHOULD Scotland go it alone.

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Roxy Hearts
26 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

The question is actually what will the SNP guarantee will happen to improve our standard of living post independence.

 

So far they are kicking all the difficult decisions into the long grass and crossing their fingers.   All talk, no detail, no actions.

 

 

SNP won't be on charge. Inpedendence isn't about them. There will be a Scottish general election and we would vote for the party who's policies we think best suits our needs. 

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Roxy Hearts
29 minutes ago, rudi must stay said:

 

I do fear the relationship definatly. They could be awful, and as I said in my previous post we aren't under the thumb of England and Westminster. A few more devolved issues (think that's what they call them, been a while since I did modern studies and had to remember all this) and that would be even better.

I can relate to all our UK relations it's the governance I dislike. 

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frankblack
1 minute ago, Roxy Hearts said:

SNP won't be on charge. Inpedendence isn't about them. There will be a Scottish general election and we would vote for the party who's policies we think best suits our needs. 

 

Why?  The other parties want to remain part of the union.

 

The SNP can't just dump this shit on us and run.

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Roxy Hearts
4 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

Why?  The other parties want to remain part of the union.

 

The SNP can't just dump this shit on us and run.

I meant if we gained independence. There would be new parties with new ideals. The SNP have done a relatively good job but not enough on independence. More people would vote for it if the message was clearer and allayed some fears but they have failed. 

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i8hibsh
13 minutes ago, Cade said:

So, folk are still arguing if Scotland COULD make it alone, even though most intelligent people agree it could.

 

The debate is now SHOULD Scotland go it alone.

 

 

No, it is will they? Of course we could. Hearts could win the league.

 

Do you agree we also COULD NOT go it alone? Or do you have all the answers that no-one else does.

 

Not sure why you brought up the intelligence of those who say we could when many as great a mind say the opposite.

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Cade

It's interesting that Labour and Tories are trying very hard to equate Independence with the SNP.

 

All it's doing is giving the SNP a built-in 45%+ share of the vote in every election.

 

You'd think they'd realise that and start having a more mature debate on the proposal, but hey ho.

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frankblack
56 minutes ago, Roxy Hearts said:

I meant if we gained independence. There would be new parties with new ideals. The SNP have done a relatively good job but not enough on independence. More people would vote for it if the message was clearer and allayed some fears but they have failed. 

 

I am not convinced that is practical as negotiations would need to take place immediately to agree settlement terms, currency, etc.

 

I do agree with the latter point about the message, as I think the message is far from clear.  At the end of the day, people want to know that their jobs and finances are going to be secure post independence.

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frankblack
36 minutes ago, Cade said:

It's interesting that Labour and Tories are trying very hard to equate Independence with the SNP.

 

All it's doing is giving the SNP a built-in 45%+ share of the vote in every election.

 

You'd think they'd realise that and start having a more mature debate on the proposal, but hey ho.

 

Independence is represented by the SNP with the irrelevant greens propping them up at Holyrood.  There are no other relevant parties - that is a fact.  Therefore the SNP represent independence.

 

As for the 45%+ share, lets just see what happens next election.  Their MP count took a big hit at the last General Election.

 

Mature debates go both ways.  The SNP are seen as the Grievance Party, who do nothing constructive other than oppose Westminster at every oportunity.

Edited by frankblack

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Cade
11 minutes ago, frankblack said:

 

  The Scottish tories are seen as the Grievance Party, who do nothing constructive other than oppose Independence at every oportunity.

:whistling:

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frankblack
4 minutes ago, Cade said:

:whistling:

 

Quoting and editing what you quoted is pretty childish, and hardly wins your argument.

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jack D and coke
2 hours ago, rudi must stay said:

 

Yes but we don't share an island with them. Alot of major businesses said they would pull out of Scotland if we went independent last referendum, and that was no threat. We would be a new country with a new economy that's totally unproven. I don't see whats so wrong with the deal we have, our parliament has a say in most issues aside from foreign affairs, not bad for a country of 5 million.

 

Look at the royal family, look at the tourism and what being part of Britain brings. We'd be cutting ourselves from all of that. It would be stupid IMO

Mate your fears are as valid as anyone else’s and I can’t convince you otherwise it’s all fair enough. 

Its a sad state of affairs though that you feel a country we’ve been in a union with for over 300 years is going to nail us for taking control of our own affairs. 

The royal family thing doesn’t stand up either, more people visit France than here and let’s be honest Scotland has a deep and even a dark rich history that is enough to tempt people here. Unless they build some fortress at the border I fail to see how people wouldn’t come here too if they’re on this island. Not to mention the beauty of the place. To think people wouldn’t come because of the royals isn’t something I’d worry about but we all have different issues I suppose. 

It’s perfectly ok to want to remain British btw i have family exactly the same. I don’t hanker for Indy or obsess about it, I’m Indy leaning and if it happens it happens but equally if it doesn’t then so be it. 

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Roxy Hearts
1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

I am not convinced that is practical as negotiations would need to take place immediately to agree settlement terms, currency, etc.

 

I do agree with the latter point about the message, as I think the message is far from clear.  At the end of the day, people want to know that their jobs and finances are going to be secure post independence.

A lot of people feel that way and not against independence per se. They need some reassurance to allay fears but I think there's a lot to do to convince those who would change their mind. 

 

Scotland is a wealthy country but conveying that message into a strong narrative is proving difficult for some. 

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Thunderstruck
1 hour ago, frankblack said:

 

The question is actually what will the SNP guarantee will happen to improve our standard of living post independence.

 

So far they are kicking all the difficult decisions into the long grass and crossing their fingers.   All talk, no detail, no actions.

 

 

 

There is no coherent plan. In fact, there is NO plan beyond winning a referendum and then forming some super-sized think tank to takes things from there. 

 

We are asked to take it on trust that we will be fine or we will ‘survive’. I’m sorry, that won’t do - ‘survive’ is not ‘prosper’ and there is a complete lack of detail on, well, everything. 

 

When pressed on a plan or lack thereof, many of those who are obsessively pro-independence tend to get quite abusive. A similar response is incoming when they are asked if there would be a point when they would say ‘no thanks, Independence would be too harmful.’

 

Such abuse or aggression is symptomatic of a raw nerve being touched and, deep down, they know it isn’t feasible without a very clear and costed plan. 

 

It is all so pointless as we are living through the dying days of the Nation State as the Economic State is on the rise.  

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Brighton Jambo
6 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

There is no coherent plan. In fact, there is NO plan beyond winning a referendum and then forming some super-sized think tank to takes things from there. 

 

We are asked to take it on trust that we will be fine or we will ‘survive’. I’m sorry, that won’t do - ‘survive’ is not ‘prosper’ and there is a complete lack of detail on, well, everything. 

 

When pressed on a plan or lack thereof, many of those who are obsessively pro-independence tend to get quite abusive. A similar response is incoming when they are asked if there would be a point when they would say ‘no thanks, Independence would be too harmful.’

 

Such abuse or aggression is symptomatic of a raw nerve being touched and, deep down, they know it isn’t feasible without a very clear and costed plan. 

 

It is all so pointless as we are living through the dying days of the Nation State as the Economic State is on the rise.  

This is a very good post if I may say so, sums it up perfectly. 

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Dawnrazor
10 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

There is no coherent plan. In fact, there is NO plan beyond winning a referendum and then forming some super-sized think tank to takes things from there. 

 

We are asked to take it on trust that we will be fine or we will ‘survive’. I’m sorry, that won’t do - ‘survive’ is not ‘prosper’ and there is a complete lack of detail on, well, everything. 

 

When pressed on a plan or lack thereof, many of those who are obsessively pro-independence tend to get quite abusive. A similar response is incoming when they are asked if there would be a point when they would say ‘no thanks, Independence would be too harmful.’

 

Such abuse or aggression is symptomatic of a raw nerve being touched and, deep down, they know it isn’t feasible without a very clear and costed plan. 

 

It is all so pointless as we are living through the dying days of the Nation State as the Economic State is on the rise.  

👏👏👏

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jack D and coke
21 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

There is no coherent plan. In fact, there is NO plan beyond winning a referendum and then forming some super-sized think tank to takes things from there. 

 

We are asked to take it on trust that we will be fine or we will ‘survive’. I’m sorry, that won’t do - ‘survive’ is not ‘prosper’ and there is a complete lack of detail on, well, everything. 

 

When pressed on a plan or lack thereof, many of those who are obsessively pro-independence tend to get quite abusive. A similar response is incoming when they are asked if there would be a point when they would say ‘no thanks, Independence would be too harmful.’

 

Such abuse or aggression is symptomatic of a raw nerve being touched and, deep down, they know it isn’t feasible without a very clear and costed plan. 

 

It is all so pointless as we are living through the dying days of the Nation State as the Economic State is on the rise.  

Mate you will never be convinced. It wouldn’t matter what was laid before you you’d rubbish it. 

There could never be a plan anyway,

much like brexit. Until it happens planning is pointless on the whole.

Pragmatism would take over. We would have to give and take as would rUK. 

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Sir Vladimir of Romanov
33 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

There is no coherent plan. In fact, there is NO plan beyond winning a referendum and then forming some super-sized think tank to takes things from there. 

 

We are asked to take it on trust that we will be fine or we will ‘survive’. I’m sorry, that won’t do - ‘survive’ is not ‘prosper’ and there is a complete lack of detail on, well, everything. 

 

When pressed on a plan or lack thereof, many of those who are obsessively pro-independence tend to get quite abusive. A similar response is incoming when they are asked if there would be a point when they would say ‘no thanks, Independence would be too harmful.’

 

Such abuse or aggression is symptomatic of a raw nerve being touched and, deep down, they know it isn’t feasible without a very clear and costed plan. 

 

It is all so pointless as we are living through the dying days of the Nation State as the Economic State is on the rise.  

 

Exactly. All the things they demand from Westminster re brexit they are unable to provide themselves in relation to independence. 

 

The work of fiction they produced the last time is files in the humorous fiction section. 

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SwindonJambo
2 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

Mate you will never be convinced. It wouldn’t matter what was laid before you you’d rubbish it. 

There could never be a plan anyway,

much like brexit. Until it happens planning is pointless on the whole.

Pragmatism would take over. We would have to give and take as would rUK. 

 

I don’t think you can compare independence with Brexit. The latter is a complete mess with a new relationship being negotiated with an economic block we were previously a core member of.

 

Independence is much more clearly defined. It means a small part of a larger state breaking away and forming a new state of its own with independent Central Government Departments, Home & Foreign Office, Central Bank and Currency,  Armed Forces and foreign policy. Complete control of all Taxation and Public Spending. 

 

if you want to convince people in the middle ground to do that, there MUST be a coherent economic plan with figures the SNP are willing to stand behind. An acknowledgment of the likely challenges and a plan of how to deal with then would be good too. 

 

Most people aren’t flag waving patriots. They just want to be secure and prosperous in their jobs, put a roof over their heads and provide for their families.

 

Even as a No, I think Scotland would do fine longer term but be poorer to start with after a huge cull of public sector jobs. Its public sector is way too big and the economy would have to rebalance towards private sector.

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coconut doug
33 minutes ago, Thunderstruck said:

 

There is no coherent plan. In fact, there is NO plan beyond winning a referendum and then forming some super-sized think tank to takes things from there. 

 

We are asked to take it on trust that we will be fine or we will ‘survive’. I’m sorry, that won’t do - ‘survive’ is not ‘prosper’ and there is a complete lack of detail on, well, everything. 

 

When pressed on a plan or lack thereof, many of those who are obsessively pro-independence tend to get quite abusive. A similar response is incoming when they are asked if there would be a point when they would say ‘no thanks, Independence would be too harmful.’

 

Such abuse or aggression is symptomatic of a raw nerve being touched and, deep down, they know it isn’t feasible without a very clear and costed plan. 

 

It is all so pointless as we are living through the dying days of the Nation State as the Economic State is on the rise.  

Said one of the most offensive posters on here.       I could be wrong though, maybe i was unabl;e to read your posts or did not have my classroom assistant with me. That's because we are of insufficient intellect, you frequently tell us. Posters asking you to substantiate the claims you make are told they are unable to understand the source you took the info from and so there is no point in linking it.or arttemting to explain it to them.

   When challenged about the abusive nature of your posts by a poster on here (me) you reply with "What's the matter, don't you have a sense of humour"?

 

Many of the claims you have made on here are utterly bizarre e.g. the nation state is dying. Disputing these claims is not abuse it is an attempt to find the truth. You would not debate preferring to make personal attacks instead.

 

Have a look at the pro indy posters on here and elsewhere and compare them to the other side. Often nothing more than personal attacks reason being it is they who have lost most of the arguments, and they know it.

 

 

 

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Geoff the Mince

If the SNP  would commit to building a wall I'd join the party 

 

can see myself at a rally with a "Build the Wall" banner :lol:

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Thunderstruck
11 minutes ago, coconut doug said:

Said one of the most offensive posters on here.       I could be wrong though, maybe i was unabl;e to read your posts or did not have my classroom assistant with me. That's because we are of insufficient intellect, you frequently tell us. Posters asking you to substantiate the claims you make are told they are unable to understand the source you took the info from and so there is no point in linking it.or arttemting to explain it to them.

   When challenged about the abusive nature of your posts by a poster on here (me) you reply with "What's the matter, don't you have a sense of humour"?

 

Many of the claims you have made on here are utterly bizarre e.g. the nation state is dying. Disputing these claims is not abuse it is an attempt to find the truth. You would not debate preferring to make personal attacks instead.

 

Have a look at the pro indy posters on here and elsewhere and compare them to the other side. Often nothing more than personal attacks reason being it is they who have lost most of the arguments, and they know it.

 

 

 

 

I’m obliged for your response and for emphasising the points I was making. 

 

That notwithstanding and taking your points on board, you might wand to read ‘The Shield of Achilles: War, Peace and the Course of History’ by Philip Bobbit. ‘Bizarre’ is not an adjective that I have seen associated with his work. 

 

He teaches constitutional law at the University of Texas. He has served as Counsel to the Senate Select Committee on the Iran-Contra Affair, as well as Director of Intelligence and Senior Director for Strategic Planning at the National Security Council. He has written previous books on nuclear strategy, social choice and constitutional law.

 

 

 

7EB890C3-4CDB-4380-906D-C0EE9A4CE00F.jpeg

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BudgeUp

I was veering towards no next time until it was stated: "sh*tebag if you don't!"

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jack D and coke
59 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

I don’t think you can compare independence with Brexit. The latter is a complete mess with a new relationship being negotiated with an economic block we were previously a core member of.

 

Independence is much more clearly defined. It means a small part of a larger state breaking away and forming a new state of its own with independent Central Government Departments, Home & Foreign Office, Central Bank and Currency,  Armed Forces and foreign policy. Complete control of all Taxation and Public Spending. 

 

if you want to convince people in the middle ground to do that, there MUST be a coherent economic plan with figures the SNP are willing to stand behind. An acknowledgment of the likely challenges and a plan of how to deal with then would be good too. 

 

Most people aren’t flag waving patriots. They just want to be secure and prosperous in their jobs, put a roof over their heads and provide for their families.

 

Even as a No, I think Scotland would do fine longer term but be poorer to start with after a huge cull of public sector jobs. Its public sector is way too big and the economy would have to rebalance towards private sector.

I don’t agree. You can lay out what you would like to happen but it would likely all go in the bin the day it actually did happen.

It can always be compared to brexit too. There’s not that much difference. 

There would need to be adjustment all over the place and maybe some people don’t fancy all that hassle. That’s fair enough just don’t trot out all the pish about how Scotland couldn’t do it, couldn’t survive etc etc etc. It’s bolloks. 

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SwindonJambo
18 minutes ago, jack D and coke said:

I don’t agree. You can lay out what you would like to happen but it would likely all go in the bin the day it actually did happen.

It can always be compared to brexit too. There’s not that much difference. 

There would need to be adjustment all over the place and maybe some people don’t fancy all that hassle. That’s fair enough just don’t trot out all the pish about how Scotland couldn’t do it, couldn’t survive etc etc etc. It’s bolloks. 

 

A lot of it would go in the bin but at least some kind of costed plan would be good. I don’t trot out said pish about how Scotland couldn’t do it. Because I personally think it could do it. It’s just a matter of whether voters think they should and whether they’re prepared to put up with a likely disruptive and painful transitional period.

 

If there had been a clearer plan on currency last time, I think the vote would have been closer.

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jack D and coke
12 minutes ago, SwindonJambo said:

 

A lot of it would go in the bin but at least some kind of costed plan would be good. I don’t trot out said pish about how Scotland couldn’t do it. Because I personally think it could do it. It’s just a matter of whether voters think they should and whether they’re prepared to put up with a likely disruptive and painful transitional period.

 

If there had been a clearer plan on currency last time, I think the vote would have been closer.

There was a few plans for currency last time but for some insane reason they chose to stick to sterling tied to the BOE. 

Jim Sillars was right when he said it was madness on stilts. In what universe was that independence? 

I still think the last referendum was Scotland’s best chance of achieving indy and the SNP and Salmond in particular blew it. He allowed that issue to bog down the entire campaign. 

I think brexit will make it less likely tbh. 

Edited by jack D and coke

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Justin Z
12 hours ago, jack D and coke said:

There was a few plans for currency last time but for some insane reason they chose to stick to sterling tied to the BOE. 

Jim Sillars was right when he said it was madness on stilts. In what universe was that independence? 

I still think the last referendum was Scotland’s best chance of achieving indy and the SNP and Salmond in particular blew it. He allowed that issue to bog down the entire campaign. 

I think brexit will make it less likely tbh. 

 

Lots of quite independent countries use other countries' currency or peg their currency to other countries' currency. There is no conflict here at all. In fact, it's a great way to insulate yourself from malicious mass speculation meant to drive down the value of your currency. The open market trading of currency has so little actual impact on people in the West that it's a non-issue anyway.

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jack D and coke
5 minutes ago, Justin Z said:

 

Lots of quite independent countries use other countries' currency or peg their currency to other countries' currency. There is no conflict here at all. In fact, it's a great way to insulate yourself from malicious mass speculation meant to drive down the value of your currency. The open market trading of currency has so little actual impact on people in the West that it's a non-issue anyway.

Pegging wasn’t what Salmond had in mind pegging is a good idea. Ireland done it with the punt which for all intents and purposes was a pound. Salmond wanted our entire monetary policy, our interest rates, our lender of last resort etc in what would be a foreign country.

It was insane. 

Edited by jack D and coke

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Justin Z
1 minute ago, jack D and coke said:

Pegging wasn’t what Salmond had in mind pegging is a good idea. Ireland done it with the punt which for all intents and purposes was a pound. Salmond wanted our entire monetary policy, our interest rates, our lender of last resort etc in what would be a foreign country.

It was insane. 

 

Gotcha. That being the case, I'd be forced to agree, especially with such a close neighbouring case working well for many decades until the link was broken in the late 70s.

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JimKongUno
15 hours ago, Geoff the Mince said:

If the SNP  would commit to building a wall I'd join the party 

 

can see myself at a rally with a "Build the Wall" banner :lol:

 

#RebuildHadrians

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Cade

I love when people say that they'd love to rebuild Hadrian's Wall and cut Scotland off.

 

Hadrian's is entirely within England, running from Carlisle more or less straight east to Wallsend in Newcastle.

 

But if England want to cede a fair portion of land to Scotland in an indepedence settlement, that'd be welcome.

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gerry mccauley

I was veering towards leave but chose not to vote.....  Uncertain...

 

I would vote remain now.

 

The Independence referendum seed clearer.....

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ri Alban
17 hours ago, Cade said:

I love when people say that they'd love to rebuild Hadrian's Wall and cut Scotland off.

 

Hadrian's is entirely within England, running from Carlisle more or less straight east to Wallsend in Newcastle.

 

But if England want to cede a fair portion of land to Scotland in an indepedence settlement, that'd be welcome.

GW, Tripper and Co would rebuild the Antonine wall. Partition is a very British ideal. 

Edited by ri Alban

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Inch Hearts

Leave.  100%

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Smithee
On 12/10/2018 at 11:12, jack D and coke said:

Pegging wasn’t what Salmond had in mind pegging is a good idea. Ireland done it with the punt which for all intents and purposes was a pound. Salmond wanted our entire monetary policy, our interest rates, our lender of last resort etc in what would be a foreign country.

It was insane. 

Pegging must be something different from what I've been told then, it didn't sound like a very good idea to me.

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frankblack
12 hours ago, ri Alban said:

GW, Tripper and Co would rebuild the Antonine wall. Partition is a very British ideal. 

 

The irony is lost on you that Scotland may have to create a hard border with England if it wanted to join the EU post brexit.

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coconut doug
On ‎11‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 21:36, Thunderstruck said:

 

I’m obliged for your response and for emphasising the points I was making. 

 

That notwithstanding and taking your points on board, you might wand to read ‘The Shield of Achilles: War, Peace and the Course of History’ by Philip Bobbit. ‘Bizarre’ is not an adjective that I have seen associated with his work. 

 

He teaches constitutional law at the University of Texas. He has served as Counsel to the Senate Select Committee on the Iran-Contra Affair, as well as Director of Intelligence and Senior Director for Strategic Planning at the National Security Council. He has written previous books on nuclear strategy, social choice and constitutional law.

 

 

 

7EB890C3-4CDB-4380-906D-C0EE9A4CE00F.jpeg

I’m afraid your sarcasm is wasted on me. Had I wished to be abusive,  I would have done so far more succinctly than stating that one of your statements was bizarre.  Why would I be abusive to somebody I don’t know, isn’t that your M.O.?

So, just to be clear, you made this statement “It is all so pointless as we are living through the dying days of the Nation State as the Economic State is on the rise.” and I called it bizarre. Imo there is little or no evidence to support the imminent death of the Nation state and even less obviously for its replacement by something called the Economic state, whatever that might be. I would totally stand by my statement but you may be able to reveal where the nation state is crumbling and the Economic State is taking over. I would be fascinated to read of this.

Unfortunately you made no attempt to explain your point other than to offer a synopsis of a book you are reading quoting the author’s C.V. I had hoped you might try to expand on your statement using your own words but it seems you are not up to the task.

Strangely you quoted my “bizarre” comment pertaining to your assertion about dying Nation states and applied it as though I had been describing somebody else i.e the author of the book you had been reading, Philip Bobbit. I had never heard of Bobbit but you cite him as proof that your statement is not bizarre.

I paid you the courtesy of actually taking some time to see what his book was about and to see how others regarded it. I did this because you said “‘Bizarre’ is not an adjective that I have seen associated with his work.” Maybe not but that does not mean that some consider it to be “eccentric and slightly unhinged. “

https://www.lrb.co.uk/v24/n11/david-runciman/the-garden-the-park-and-the-meadow

This is one of the most sober and measured periodicals and I doubt they would use such terms without reason.

   The Observer calls the work ponderous, onerous and deeply depressing and states that the book “glorifies and ennobles war”     https://www.theguardian.com/books/2002/jun/16/history.homer

Others talk of a new order where there are no social or environmental considerations. As far as I can understand you are saying that this is inevitable and that the process is already underway and that there is no point in trying to stop it.

 The book is 20 years old though and reviewers are laughing at Bobbit’s predictions and theories which it seems were formed around the time Mrs Thatcher was telling us “there is no such thing as society.”

You have some effrontery to offer the inevitability of this ludicrous and nihilistic vision of the future as a reason to reject independence.  I understand that such visions are attractive to some Tories but for most people these views are abhorrent and as a consequence unlikely to see the light of day in our country.

I hope you don’t think that I am running away from your arguments and being abusive and aggressive. I am disappointed by your argument. If you are going to quote a book and its synopsis I would hope that you would have understood the points the author was making as well as the terminology he uses. I still don’t know what you mean by the Economic State. I assume you meant the Market State but maybe I’m just not smart enough to understand.

 

 

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