Craig Levein: A Psychological Explanation

[It should have been ten]

2 hours ago, Bez said:

 

Have to disagree there. He was world class imo too. Career cut short however, a real shame.

 

Totally agree 

[graygo]

1 hour ago, doctor jambo said:

Indeed,

I can confidently predict that most future Hearts managers will not win anything

I was 22 years old by the time Hearts won anything at all

and if you strip out the Romanov era - where we threw tens of millions at the team before going bust- we have won 1 Scottish cup in my 41 years on the planet- under JJ in 98

 

You can't just strip out the Romanov period, we may have still won both cups without him in charge, hell we might have won more!

Can we strip out Adam's cup final goal as well and say that we've not won anything for xx years?

[...a bit disco]

Some people say that Levein sucks all the joy out of it.

 

Then along came this thread...

[Seymour M Hersh]

3 hours ago, innerjambo said:

 

I disagree, he was a very good defender, no more, no less.

 

He was much better than just very good. And had he not done his knee he was on his way to Spurs or Liverpool.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Seymour M Hersh

[doctor jambo]

9 minutes ago, graygo said:

 

You can't just strip out the Romanov period, we may have still won both cups without him in charge, hell we might have won more!

Can we strip out Adam's cup final goal as well and say that we've not won anything for xx years?

I think you can strip it out, as it wont happen to us again.

If you take the baseline as silver ware there are a few things that we can do

 

1- spend big- our model will not allow that now- the "Romanov way"

 

2- you plug away with the regular approach- Motherwell, St J etc and change manager every few years and hope for a freak event where it all clicks for one season, whilst the others have a collapse that coincides with our purple patch

 

3 you build ground up- youth, infrastructure, patience and perseverance. The aim being success in a few years at short term erratic results

 

We are never going to buy players to challenge Celtic- its impossible. So its either 2 or 3.

We are going for "3"- it is the only way we can ever mount a title tilt, but there will be stumbles

[graygo]

Just now, doctor jambo said:

I think you can strip it out, as it wont happen to us again.

If you take the baseline as silver ware there are a few things that we can do

 

1- spend big- our model will not allow that now- the "Romanov way"

 

2- you plug away with the regular approach- Motherwell, St J etc and change manager every few years and hope for a freak event where it all clicks for one season, whilst the others have a collapse that coincides with our purple patch

 

3 you build ground up- youth, infrastructure, patience and perseverance. The aim being success in a few years at short term erratic results

 

We are never going to buy players to challenge Celtic- its impossible. So its either 2 or 3.

We are going for "3"- it is the only way we can ever mount a title tilt, but there will be stumbles

All fair points but you still can't strip it out same as you can't strip out all the silverware won by big spending Celtic and Rangers.

[davemclaren]

I’m now retired and even I don’t have time to read all that. ?

[doctor jambo]

Just now, graygo said:

All fair points but you still can't strip it out same as you can't strip out all the silverware won by big spending Celtic and Rangers.

need to agree to disagree

Celtic and Rangers (old one) did that on the basis they could do it, and Celtic still can

option 1 is not an option for us now

Without Romanov's cash  I don't think we would be winning those cups- its speculation of course, but looking at where we were before him, without the cash the team would never have happened, and we would have been in the austerity wilderness hoping for a freak event- not once but twice

[Beast Boy]

15 minutes ago, ...a bit disco said:

Some people say that Levein sucks all the joy out of it.

 

Then along came this thread...

 

This thread is like one of those dementor thingies in Harry Potter. It’s not just sucked the joy out of Kickback, it’s sucking the joy out of life for me.

 

A psycho analysis of a great player and well respected manager (who is part way through a rebuilding job), provided to us all by a guy who is no more qualified to give a psycho analysis than Super Nanny is to be a paediatric surgeon.

[...a bit disco]

1 minute ago, Bez said:

 

This thread is like one of those dementor thingies in Harry Potter. It’s not just sucked the joy out of Kickback, it’s sucking the joy out of life for me.

 

A psycho analysis of a great player and well respected manager (who is part way through a rebuilding job), provided to us all by a guy who is no more qualified to give a psycho analysis than Super Nanny is to be a paediatric surgeon.

 

A long-winded diatribe of babble.

 

All in the name of Levein.Oot.

[frankblack]

6 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

need to agree to disagree

Celtic and Rangers (old one) did that on the basis they could do it, and Celtic still can

option 1 is not an option for us now

Without Romanov's cash  I don't think we would be winning those cups- its speculation of course, but looking at where we were before him, without the cash the team would never have happened, and we would have been in the austerity wilderness hoping for a freak event- not once but twice

 

Without Romanov's cash we certainly wouldn't have won those trophies in 2006 or 2012.  We would have been homeless and renting Murrayfield until we went out of business playing in front of sub-10k crowds in a 67k stadium.

[Des Lynam]

19 minutes ago, Bez said:

 

This thread is like one of those dementor thingies in Harry Potter. It’s not just sucked the joy out of Kickback, it’s sucking the joy out of life for me.

 

A psycho analysis of a great player and well respected manager (who is part way through a rebuilding job), provided to us all by a guy who is no more qualified to give a psycho analysis than Super Nanny is to be a paediatric surgeon.

 

Is Shaun really Sophie? 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Des Lynam

[sadj]

20 minutes ago, Bez said:

 

This thread is like one of those dementor thingies in Harry Potter. It’s not just sucked the joy out of Kickback, it’s sucking the joy out of life for me.

 

A psycho analysis of a great player and well respected manager (who is part way through a rebuilding job), provided to us all by a guy who is no more qualified to give a psycho analysis than Super Nanny is to be a paediatric surgeon.

 

18 minutes ago, ...a bit disco said:

 

A long-winded diatribe of babble.

 

All in the name of Levein.Oot.

 

Those two posts summed it up beautifully. Babble is possible a polite word though.

 

 

2 minutes ago, Des Lynam said:

 

Is Shaun really Sophia? 

Hes really something.... what that is , is open to debate. Maybe we need an exorcist to banish demons. 

[Escobar PHM]

Read it on the bus this morning. Lasted all the way from Crewe Toll to the Fit o' the Walk

 

Its a decent read and I was actually amazed how many times Levein has been close to trophies only for fate to take a hand.

 

The OP depicts Levein as being a sad broken loser feard of his own shadow. I have to say he doesn't come across as that. He comes across as an arrogant, stubborn, blinkered and perhaps bitter man, still determined that his way is the right way or its the highway for you if you don't get on board with it. He wont change because he thinks he is right, not because he's scared of the consequences of playing a more open game. He just doesn't believe an open adventurous brave game is the way forward, despite the evidence around him on an almost weekly basis. Despite the fact that the one time he was forced into an open brave adventurous high tempo pressing game we thrashed the arse off the runaway champions in this league

 

Good read, wrong conclusion, same results being shown.Same outcome.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Escobar PHM

[Maple Leaf]

I thought the OP was interesting and well-though through; it was worth the read.  Some of the rebuttals have been good as well.  Too bad about the several ad hominem comments, as they don't add to the discussion, but I suppose those are to be expected on an internet forum.

 

Whatever anyone feels about CL, I don't agree that it's inevitable that next season will be as dreary as the current one.  There have been flashes of good stuff at various times this year, and it's possible that he can make those performances occur regularly.  We'll have to wait and see.

 

And we need to set our expectations about his departure realistically:  he isn't leaving anytime soon.  Ann Budge has made that clear on more than one occasion in the last few weeks.  

 

If the friendly masses of JKB have a message for CL, it has to be different from "Thanks for trying, but goodbye."  He will be managing the summer transfer window, and he'll be in the dugout at the start of next season.  What positive words of advice do we have to offer?

 

 

[Haken]

9 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

 

If the friendly masses of JKB have a message for CL, it has to be different from "Thanks for trying, but goodbye."  He will be managing the summer transfer window, and he'll be in the dugout at the start of next season.  What positive words of advice do we have to offer?

 

 

As one of the happy clapping brigade who is killing the club through my blind acceptance of mediocrity, my message would be, "Thanks for trying; please try harder."  

 

This has been a poor season.  I don't think Levein will survive a similar next season.

[MikeySimpson]

The Frank Grimes of Scottish football

[sadj]

18 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

I thought the OP was interesting and well-though through; it was worth the read.  Some of the rebuttals have been good as well.  Too bad about the several ad hominem comments, as they don't add to the discussion, but I suppose those are to be expected on an internet forum.

 

Whatever anyone feels about CL, I don't agree that it's inevitable that next season will be as dreary as the current one.  There have been flashes of good stuff at various times this year, and it's possible that he can make those performances occur regularly.  We'll have to wait and see.

 

And we need to set our expectations about his departure realistically:  he isn't leaving anytime soon.  Ann Budge has made that clear on more than one occasion in the last few weeks.  

 

If the friendly masses of JKB have a message for CL, it has to be different from "Thanks for trying, but goodbye."  He will be managing the summer transfer window, and he'll be in the dugout at the start of next season.  What positive words of advice do we have to offer?

 

 

 

There is little positivity to be passed out as when it is or encouragement given its shouted down as Levein loving. Every person on this forum has an opinion all valid all from differing knowledge or understanding. Some eaily swayed some staunch? to the end. 

 

However my thought is what would the club make of this kind of thing , make no mistake they keep an eye on this forum. We should be pragmatic and try and be positive whilst making our opinions known. 

 

My personal opinion on the op and his post is from a long standing viewpoint of him and his work both here and outside of here. 

 

Psychology is important in sport. However that is something clubs look at now as a valued part of the growth of players and the psyche of a club in general. Craig Levein has a brain for football unlike any other I know. He has Hearts in his heart and though stubborn at times he understands what we have and what we can offer. 

 

Many on here have a sensible view and say right where we are is not ideal but from where we were its progress. We had a good January and its set us up for a good place to start in the summer. That needs continued and we need to see progress on the park. Same old Levein football is another fabrication. Watch how we play look at the stats they will back up its not longball football. We try and play but we miss a vital ingredient - A midfield to transition play and we also have a poor level of fitness. Two things that need rectified over the summer. I look forward to CL and his team achieving that and a better season next year. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by sadj

[Beast Boy]

5 minutes ago, sadj said:

 

There is little positivity to be passed out as when it is or encouragement given its shouted down as Levein loving. Every person on this forum has an opinion all valid all from differing knowledge or understanding. Some eaily swayed some staunch? to the end. 

 

However my thought is what would the club make of this kind of thing , make no mistake they keep an eye on this forum. We should be pragmatic and try and be positive whilst making our opinions known. 

 

My personal opinion on the op and his post is from a long standing viewpoint of him and his work both here and outside of here. 

 

Psychology is important in sport. However that is something clubs look at now as a valued part of the growth of players and the psyche of a club in general. Craig Levein has a brain for football unlike any other I know. He has Hearts in his heart and though stubborn at times he understands what we have and what we can offer. 

 

Many on here have a sensible view and say right where we are is not ideal but from where we were its progress. We had a good January and its set us up for a good place to start in the summer. That needs continued and we need to see progress on the park. Same old Levein football is another fabrication. Watch how we play look at the stats they will back up its not longball football. We try and play but we miss a vital ingredient - A midfield to transition play and we also have a poor level of fitness. Two things that need rectified over the summer. I look forward to CL and his team achieving that and a better season next year. 

 

 

 

[Bazzas right boot]

38 minutes ago, Maple Leaf said:

I thought the OP was interesting and well-though through; it was worth the read.  Some of the rebuttals have been good as well.  Too bad about the several ad hominem comments, as they don't add to the discussion, but I suppose those are to be expected on an internet forum.

 

Whatever anyone feels about CL, I don't agree that it's inevitable that next season will be as dreary as the current one.  There have been flashes of good stuff at various times this year, and it's possible that he can make those performances occur regularly.  We'll have to wait and see.

 

And we need to set our expectations about his departure realistically:  he isn't leaving anytime soon.  Ann Budge has made that clear on more than one occasion in the last few weeks.  

 

If the friendly masses of JKB have a message for CL, it has to be different from "Thanks for trying, but goodbye."  He will be managing the summer transfer window, and he'll be in the dugout at the start of next season.  What positive words of advice do we have to offer?

 

 

 

 

I think Craig knows what the issues are.

 

he has stated we need at least 9 new players.

he moved on some deadwood in January, Randall and Prince have already been informed of their futures, Martin and sammon I am sure will be told the same.

 

The squad was ro2o reliant on young players- we already have signed some back up. 

 

The fitness issues won't be a concern this year, we have no Cathro to recover from and no disruption of the main stand being built.

 

the issues are obvious,sone  folk think they can be fixed by sacking him, others think he will solve them as he is fully aware.

 

[Escobar PHM]

8 minutes ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said:

 

 

I think Craig knows what the issues are.

 

he has stated we need at least 9 new players.

he moved on some deadwood in January, Randall and Prince have already been informed of their futures, Martin and sammon I am sure will be told the same.

 

The squad was ro2o reliant on young players- we already have signed some back up. 

 

The fitness issues won't be a concern this year, we have no Cathro to recover from and no disruption of the main stand being built.

 

the issues are obvious,sone  folk think they can be fixed by sacking him, others think he will solve them as he is fully aware.

 

If Craig (or anyone else including you) thinks for one minute that the issues are confined solely to the fitness and the quality and depth in the squad and absolutely nothing to do with his management and tactical set up and the ambition of the team under his management, boy we're in trouble

Edited April 24, 2018 by Escobar PHM

[Beast Boy]

1 minute ago, Escobar PHM said:

If Craig (or anyone else including you) thinks for one minute that the issues are confined solely to the fitness and the quality and depth in the squad and absolutely nothing to do with his management and tactical set up and the ambition of the team under his management, boy we're in trouble

 

Nah, he is spot on really.

[Bazzas right boot]

4 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

If Craig thinks for one minute that the issues are confined solely to the fitness and the quality and depth in the squad and absolutely nothing to do with his management and set up and the ambition of the team, boy we're in trouble

 

 

the quality, depth, condition and balance of the squad will largely dictate the tactics.

 

they go hand in hand.

 

why this needs explaining is beyond me.

Edited April 24, 2018 by WeeChuck'sHeed

[Alex Kintner]

4 hours ago, doctor jambo said:

Not really

Much verbose pontificating , condescension and psychobabble about something he has an opinion on, but little emotional investment in.

Amateur psychology

It would be like me going onto a Blackburn fan-site and setting myself up as an expert because I took a passing notion to them during the SAS days,

 

So his first team are Norwich but according to this thread he doesn’t really bother about them. His second team is Hearts but he has no emotional attatchment to us and has barely, if ever, attended a match? 

 

If true I’m a bit confused about the OP which makes it sound like he was there every step of the way, enjoing every high, suffering through every low. Surely you wouldn’t write like that unless you were a passionate fan and the club were a huge part of your life? I admit to not knowing Shaun as well as others claim to but I’m confused?!

[Bridge of Djoum]

12 hours ago, shaun.lawson said:

Before I start, I just want to reassure the good people of Kickback that I don't have a psychologist friend named Ben, nor will there be some dramatic entreaty to tune in next time complete with EastEnders drumroll at the end of this post. This is entirely my own theory, based on studying Craig Levein's long career. 

 

A lot of Hearts fans are plainly bewildered by how we're currently playing, especially away from home. The complaint about the Rangers game isn't that we lost; it's that we didn't even try to win. We played as if paralysed by fear: bizarre, given how fragile our opponents were. That very fear has characterised so many displays on our travels. It stems from the manager - and there's a reason for it.

 

This is someone who was a world class central defender. The best player many Hearts fans have ever had the privilege to see. He'd surely have gone on to become famous as one of the best defenders in the world had it not been for appalling misfortune with injury, which destroyed his career. People might object to my use of this word, but I regard it as a genuine personal tragedy.

 

Despite that, he still came excruciatingly close to glory as a player. Consider: as a mere 21-year-old light years ahead of his time, he was an integral part of a side just 7 lousy minutes from an astonishing, heroic league title - which might well have gone on to claim the double too. But he missed the final league game through illness: which some still blame him for to this day. It's perfectly possible that on some irrational level, he might even blame himself. 1986: the annus horribilis he went on to be defined by, especially given he picked up his first serious knee injury later that same year. 

 

Then, as part of the squad, he went on to either lose or watch his teammates lose semi-final after semi-final: five in total. By the time we finally smashed through that infuriating glass ceiling against Aberdeen in 1996, he was no longer part of Jim Jefferies' plans, and retired the following season. Whereupon only a year later, we won our first trophy in 36 years, and wee Robbo at last got the medal he and so many others (Levein foremost among them) desperately deserved.

 

For Craig, it was on to management. First, at Cowdenbeath, where he did a brilliant job, and left them on track for promotion, which they went on to secure. Then to Hearts: where he again did a brilliant job in horribly trying circumstances. Back-to-back 3rd place finishes were remarkable; the performances in Bordeaux and Braga, tremendous. Then, a few months into 04/5, he left for Leicester... and only the following season, we won the Scottish Cup again. With a squad whose core had developed under him.

 

After failing badly at Leicester, and doing a brief turn for Raith Rovers, he turned around Dundee United's fortunes magnificently. Before him, they'd been atrocious for a decade. Under him, they were strong, solid contenders for best of the rest. But yet again, his chronic bad luck struck. Twice they lost out on 4th place on the last day (on the latter occasion, with European football at stake too). Against Rangers in the League Cup Final - the only final he's ever reached as a manager - United were excellent, had a stonewall penalty turned down, led twice, were within first 6 minutes, then (in extra time) 8 minutes of winning... and lost. On penalties.

 

The following season, they returned to the semis, met Celtic, and extraordinarily, lost 11-10... on penalties. Rubbing salt into gaping wounds, the man who missed the decisive pen was none other than Willo Flood, who'd join Celtic only days later. 

 

Somehow, United rebounded from this, got even stronger, and were well on course for 3rd place when their manager left for the Scotland job. Then, lo and behold: in their very first Cup campaign after Levein left, they won only their second Scottish Cup ever, with a squad entirely assembled by him. The third time a team he either played for or managed won the Cup so soon after his departure; the second time it ended a significant drought in so doing.

 

It's not just that he lost two gutpunchers on penalties as a manager, so many semi-finals as a player, suffered final day heartbreak as player and manager, and was robbed by illness of the chance to win the title with us. It's not just that injury wrecked his brilliant career; or that like Hearts in '86, the 1990 Scotland side - whose final game he was ruled out of - were only minutes from making history at his only major tournament either. It's all of this, plus the success of Cowdenbeath, Hearts (twice) and United almost immediately after he left. 

 

Try to imagine being in his shoes. How would you feel after so much heartbreak, so much ill fortune, the vast majority of which was beyond your control? You'd be devastated, and would probably feel you were cursed. But much more importantly, the sheer trauma of all this would, very likely, scar you so much internally that it'd make you terrified. 

 

In life, trauma of whatever kind affects very many people. The most common reaction is it makes us scared: of relationships, of taking risks, of getting our constantly bruised heart broken. So we try to avoid risks, we play it safe - not realising that in doing so, we're sabotaging our own chances of the story ever changing. We see this in sport too: in tennis or snooker players who've lost crucial matches from miles ahead, and panic when in the same position again; and among football players (Exhibit A: England penalty takers) or managers whose team, for whatever reason, just keep on hitting the post.

 

So it's been with Levein. What was 4-6-0 in Prague based on if not pure fear? What have his tactics since retaking the Hearts job been based on, but again, pure fear? The thrashing of Celtic only happened because injuries forced him to take risks and remove the shackles; our equaliser at Motherwell in the Cup only happened because, trailing at half time after an embarrassing first half, he had to make positive changes. But at 1-1, with the hosts there for the taking in the biggest game of the season, he froze; and instead of going for the throat, allowed fate to take its course and again give him and us a gigantic boot in the balls.

 

This is someone I consider to be, almost certainly, the unluckiest individual working in British football - but whose fear emanating from that begats such a negative approach that it guarantees failure... and hence, his downfall. I feel desperately sorry for him - but in footballing terms, he's a broken man. As, I dare say, would anyone else be after enduring all of this.

 

The facetious conclusion from the above is: if we want to win next year's Scottish Cup, sacking him now would practically guarantee it. The other conclusion is: it's ruined him. I bear no ill will or malice towards Craig Levein at all; he's been a fantastic servant for this club, and deserves so much more than he's constantly got. But it's precisely because he's just as human as all the rest of us that, I'm afraid, all the disappointments, all the letdowns, have inevitably caught up with him. And that's why it's time to say: thanks for the memories Craig, all the best, but goodbye.

Hmmmm... Could you expand, please?

[doctor jambo]

5 minutes ago, Frank1874 said:

 

So his first team are Norwich but according to this thread he doesn’t really bother about them. His second team is Hearts but he has no emotional attatchment to us and has barely, if ever, attended a match? 

 

If true I’m a bit confused about the OP which makes it sound like he was there every step of the way, enjoing every high, suffering through every low. Surely you wouldn’t write like that unless you were a passionate fan and the club were a huge part of your life? I admit to not knowing Shaun as well as others claim to but I’m confused?!

Internet fandom

the curse of modern football

Everything he knows about Hearts he has googled

You can research a team from t'internet, but that does not equate to watching your team get dismantled in the rain and cold whilst standing with your friends and family for week after painful week.

I could know everything about Chelsea if I had a week off and a laptop

but its not the same thing as "knowing " Chelsea

He knows ABOUT Hearts, but he does not KNOW Hearts

[Escobar PHM]

33 minutes ago, WeeChuck'sHeed said:

 

 

the quality, depth, condition and balance of the squad will largely dictate the tactics.

 

they go hand in hand.

 

why this needs explaining is beyond me.

Yes it does need explaining. I think most coaches, Levein included I imagine (since he's basically done the same thing throughout his management career) develops a preferred style of playing, has it in his head already the formation he prefers and the fitness levels he'll want, then recruits players that fit that style and those requirements.

 

But Your suggesting he's going to sign players willy nilly, then have a look at what the final squad looks like, then he's going to decide the style of playing and the tactical thrust. Is that right ? The complete opposite way from what almost every other coach does ? That's what your suggesting happens at most clubs and ours in particular ?

 

Christ you can already tell from the first two signings what the tactics are going to be next season and they aint changing much

Edited April 24, 2018 by Escobar PHM

[BobbyJenkins]

27 minutes ago, Bez said:

 

Nah, he is spot on really.

 

I agree Bez, hes bang on. Its one thing to have opinions to but to actually think you know better than Levein about football (Escobar), everything football by looks of it, well that takes a special kind of arrogance. Hes like a dog with a bone, Ill give him points for stamina, tedious as he is. 

[droid]

3 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Internet fandom

the curse of modern football

Everything he knows about Hearts he has googled

You can research a team from t'internet, but that does not equate to watching your team get dismantled in the rain and cold whilst standing with your friends and family for week after painful week.

I could know everything about Chelsea if I had a week off and a laptop

but its not the same thing as "knowing " Chelsea

He knows ABOUT Hearts, but he does not KNOW Hearts

Yup

“Look man, you can listen to Jimi but you can't hear him. There's a difference man. Just because you're listening to him doesn't mean you're hearing him” - Sidney Deane (White Men Can’t Jump).

[Beast Boy]

16 minutes ago, BobbyJenkins said:

 

I agree Bez, hes bang on. Its one thing to have opinions to but to actually think you know better than Levein about football (Escobar), everything football by looks of it, well that takes a special kind of arrogance. Hes like a dog with a bone, Ill give him points for stamina, tedious as he is. 

 

My thoughts too.

[Spellczech]

Wasn't at all happy with the approach, attitude and performance on Sunday but am more than happy to give Levein a summer transfer window. I don't buy the chat about him being responsible for all the signings of Neilson and Cathro, as they also got pilloried for them. Smacks of having your cake and eating it to blame Levein too, when the other two claimed the signings as their own.

 

Fixing the mess that materialised from bringing in Cathro at an inopportune time and then letting him go hell for leather on a mid-season rebuild was never going to be accomplished in one January window. If anything Levein has shown too much faith in, and given too long a leash to the young managers he brought in. Whilst some will criticise him for that, I think that would be churlish. The man is Hearts to the core and deserves a long leash from us. He's one of us, and has earned it, contrary to what some say...

[sadj]

54 minutes ago, Escobar PHM said:

If Craig (or anyone else including you) thinks for one minute that the issues are confined solely to the fitness and the quality and depth in the squad and absolutely nothing to do with his management and tactical set up and the ambition of the team under his management, boy we're in trouble

Hes pretty spot on... Or do you think we want to try and play negative hoofball?

Edited April 24, 2018 by sadj

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Enjoyed that OP. More interesting certainly than the ream of insults that followed. 

 

Levein is definitely cautious. That's not even open to debate. Everything from 4-6-0 to just Sunday there proves that point. 

 

Cautious was fine between 02 and 04, and to be fair, sometimes he wasn't and we had some great results and solid consistency. It was arguably required too - the club was a shambles off the pitch, the playing budget was decimated each year, and the  league was stronger imo . But the most frustrating thing for me is that it wasn't necessary this time. We had an unprecedented opportunity to show real ambition and from autumn 2015 onwards we've not taken advantage. Stability like we've never seen off the pitch, additional income stream that no other team outside Celtic has, Rangers in turmoil, and Hibs out the league until this season. 

 

The setup we had in 14/15 was perfect. DoF and bright young coach doing what those roles do successfully in Europe. But we lost our way massively on that front. Can't pinpoint the reason, despite this thread and countless others trying to understand it. 

 

Personally, I still think CL has a lot to offer in that DoF role, if he appoints a coach that can get the best out of the players. But to get the best out of that, he'd need to employ somebody who had his own ideas and I can't ever see him doing that. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Eldar Hadzimehmedovic

[sadj]

25 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Internet fandom

the curse of modern football

Everything he knows about Hearts he has googled

You can research a team from t'internet, but that does not equate to watching your team get dismantled in the rain and cold whilst standing with your friends and family for week after painful week.

I could know everything about Chelsea if I had a week off and a laptop

but its not the same thing as "knowing " Chelsea

He knows ABOUT Hearts, but he does not KNOW Hearts

Would love to read his expert musings on the Uruguay national team as hes deemed an expert on them. Would be interesting to compare and contrast

[Beast Boy]

2 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

Enjoyed that OP. More interesting certainly than the ream of insults that followed. 

 

Levein is definitely cautious. That's not even open to debate. Everything from 4-6-0 to just Sunday there proves that point. 

 

Cautious was fine between 02 and 04, and to be fair, sometimes he wasn't and we had some great results and solid consistency. It was arguably required too - the club was a shambles off the pitch, the playing budget was decimated each year, and the  league was stronger imo . But the most frustrating thing for me is that it wasn't necessary this time. We had an unprecedented opportunity to show real ambition and from autumn 2015 onwards we've not taken advantage. Stability like we've never seen off the pitch, additional income stream that no other team outside Celtic has, Rangers in turmoil, and Hibs out the league until this season. 

 

The setup we had in 14/15 was perfect. DoF and bright young coach doing what those roles do successfully in Europe. But we lost our way massively on that front. Can't pinpoint the reason, despite this thread and countless others trying to understand it. 

 

Personally, I still think CL has a lot to offer in that DoF role, if he appoints a coach that can get the best out of the players. But to get the best out of that, he'd need to employ somebody who had his own ideas and I can't ever see him doing that. 

 

Rangers are in turmoil, granted. They also have spending power well outwith our capabilities and they are overspending even on that. This idea that Rangers are shite is fantasy stuff. If we had some of their players we would be trumpeting it. 

 

We don’t have a midfield. We are completely hamstrung in that area until the summer. It really is that simple and all the amateur psychoanalysis in the world isn’t going to change that. 

[sadj]

3 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

Enjoyed that OP. More interesting certainly than the ream of insults that followed. 

 

Levein is definitely cautious. That's not even open to debate. Everything from 4-6-0 to just Sunday there proves that point. 

 

Cautious was fine between 02 and 04, and to be fair, sometimes he wasn't and we had some great results and solid consistency. It was arguably required too - the club was a shambles off the pitch, the playing budget was decimated each year, and the  league was stronger imo . But the most frustrating thing for me is that it wasn't necessary this time. We had an unprecedented opportunity to show real ambition and from autumn 2015 onwards we've not taken advantage. Stability like we've never seen off the pitch, additional income stream that no other team outside Celtic has, Rangers in turmoil, and Hibs out the league until this season. 

 

The setup we had in 14/15 was perfect. DoF and bright young coach doing what those roles do successfully in Europe. But we lost our way massively on that front. Can't pinpoint the reason, despite this thread and countless others trying to understand it. 

 

Personally, I still think CL has a lot to offer in that DoF role, if he appoints a coach that can get the best out of the players. But to get the best out of that, he'd need to employ somebody who had his own ideas and I can't ever see him doing that. 

Not necessarily in disagreement with points in this post. Robbie started to lose his way be it naivety after coming up the 4-3 v st j was a great game but defensively we were awful. Then he seemed to try and create a solid defence and we have laboured bar the odd game since December 15 Cathro ripped all up and started his way which didnt work and now were having to stabilise. If that is achieved and then CL moves back upstairs when were on plan again good if he fails and we have to let him go it creates more problems. What weve seen since December though is positive in terms of off-field squad things. Once Demi went down and Djoum season went back to square one. 

[Beast Boy]

3 minutes ago, sadj said:

Would love to read his expert musings on the Uruguay national team as hes deemed an expert on them. Would be interesting to compare and contrast

 

Ah, but is he a “Freelance expert”? Maybe he’s not allowed to share his expert knowledge with us on that subject?

[Escobar PHM]

4 minutes ago, sadj said:

Hes pretty spot on... Or do you think we want to try and play negative hoofball?

I wouldn't call it negative hoofball ( some would) I'd call it cautious unadventurous and limited entertainment football. If he doesn't change that outlook on the game, it doesn't matter a whole heap what type of player he is signing because basic workmen can do that kind of football.

[sadj]

9 minutes ago, Spellczech said:

Wasn't at all happy with the approach, attitude and performance on Sunday but am more than happy to give Levein a summer transfer window. I don't buy the chat about him being responsible for all the signings of Neilson and Cathro, as they also got pilloried for them. Smacks of having your cake and eating it to blame Levein too, when the other two claimed the signings as their own.

 

Fixing the mess that materialised from bringing in Cathro at an inopportune time and then letting him go hell for leather on a mid-season rebuild was never going to be accomplished in one January window. If anything Levein has shown too much faith in, and given too long a leash to the young managers he brought in. Whilst some will criticise him for that, I think that would be churlish. The man is Hearts to the core and deserves a long leash from us. He's one of us, and has earned it, contrary to what some say...

Again spot on

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

5 minutes ago, Bez said:

 

Rangers are in turmoil, granted. They also have spending power well outwith our capabilities and they are overspending even on that. This idea that Rangers are shite is fantasy stuff. If we had some of their players we would be trumpeting it. 

 

We don’t have a midfield. We are completely hamstrung in that area until the summer. It really is that simple and all the amateur psychoanalysis in the world isn’t going to change that. 

 

What do you mean we don't have a midfield? Adao, Djoum, Cowie, Cochrane, MacDonald - not terrible at all. And even if we accept we don't have a midfield, is our DoF of the last four years in any way partly responsible for that? Pure fiction to suggest he wasn't responsible for recruitment, unless you think Robbie identified Gomis and Prince, which would be the biggest coincidence I've ever seen.  

 

Also, just to be clear, imo it's a DoF's job to identify players. Another mistake we made was to get sidetracked by the bullshit "who's in charge debate". We should have had more confidence in a system that works all over Europe. If a DoF is letting first team coaches sign all the players, he isn't doing his job properly. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Eldar Hadzimehmedovic

[doctor jambo]

2 minutes ago, sadj said:

Would love to read his expert musings on the Uruguay national team as hes deemed an expert on them. Would be interesting to compare and contrast

same mistake as all wannabee journos

Know everything, but feel nothing

Its why I can respect Spencer and I8

we differ, sure, but the results REALLY mean something to them, its not a collection of stats and graphs and blogs

even as a grown man in my 40's- no longer skiting around a park pretending to be Robbo when I was a kid, losing to another team fronted by a "mccoist" wannabee

the hurt is still unreal

a loss still makes me P'd off and frankly a bit depressed

and I will text uncles and the like knowing they too are upset

 

Remember after the Celtic 4-0 I wrapped a hearts scarf around my daughter's pony for her lesson

Its a strange, joyous/depressing thing

its hard wired into us through adversity and triumph

you cannot google that

[Alex Kintner]

40 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

Internet fandom

the curse of modern football

Everything he knows about Hearts he has googled

You can research a team from t'internet, but that does not equate to watching your team get dismantled in the rain and cold whilst standing with your friends and family for week after painful week.

I could know everything about Chelsea if I had a week off and a laptop

but its not the same thing as "knowing " Chelsea

He knows ABOUT Hearts, but he does not KNOW Hearts

 

Seriously? If true that’s ridiculous!

 

Were Hearts just a team he plucked out of a hat?

[sadj]

7 minutes ago, doctor jambo said:

same mistake as all wannabee journos

Know everything, but feel nothing

Its why I can respect Spencer and I8

we differ, sure, but the results REALLY mean something to them, its not a collection of stats and graphs and blogs

even as a grown man in my 40's- no longer skiting around a park pretending to be Robbo when I was a kid, losing to another team fronted by a "mccoist" wannabee

the hurt is still unreal

a loss still makes me P'd off and frankly a bit depressed

and I will text uncles and the like knowing they too are upset

 

Remember after the Celtic 4-0 I wrapped a hearts scarf around my daughter's pony for her lesson

Its a strange, joyous/depressing thing

its hard wired into us through adversity and triumph

you cannot google that

Exactly this and likewise why I dont mind debating with the likes of Spencer. Opinions may differ but passion , knowledge , understanding vary supporter to supporter but thats where the opinions come from. Even now i will stand arms a loft and just smile when i watch the 5th go in in the cup final!! Its a feeling you cant replicate unless it breathes inside you.

Edited April 24, 2018 by sadj

[sadj]

Just now, Frank1874 said:

 

Seriously? If true that’s ridiculous!

 

Were Hearts just a team he plucked out of a hat?

To be fair to him whatever the reason he was around here near the beginning. Hos style has never changed possibly not even the views or his reasoning. Thats hard to answer. However at least here he has the opportunity to explain and maybe convert some

[Beast Boy]

8 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

What do you mean we don't have a midfield? Adao, Djoum, Cowie, Cochrane, MacDonald - not terrible at all. And even if we accept we don't have a midfield, is our DoF of the last four years in any way partly responsible for that? Pure fiction to suggest he wasn't responsible for recruitment, unless you think Robbie identified Gomis and Prince, which would be the biggest coincidence I've ever seen.  

 

Also, just to be clear, imo it's a DoF's job to identify players. Another mistake we made was to get sidetracked by the bullshit "who's in charge debate". We should have had more confidence in a system that works all over Europe. If a DoF is letting first team coaches sign all the players, he isn't doing his job properly. 

 

See that’s where I completely disagree. This idea that Levein built all the teams since 2014 is actually a really easy cop out as an excuse for those like Escobar who just don’t like him, to carry on their screeching campaign and attempt bat away the opinion of others that he needs time to build his own team.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Just now, Bez said:

 

See that’s where I completely disagree. This idea that Levein built all the teams since 2014 is actually a really easy cop out as an excuse for those like Escobar who just don’t like him, to carry on their screeching campaign and attempt bat away the opinion of others that he needs time to build his own team.

 

So he wasn't involved in the signings of Gomis and Prince? That seems crazy. And if he was, surely it's feasible he had a say in most or all of them. 

 

Which, again, he should have been. It's his job to manage the make-up of the squad as DoF. Otherwise what was the point in him being here?

 

Again on the midfield - is Adao, Djoum, Cowie, Cochrane, and MacDonald really that much worse then Mrowiec, Black, Barr, Jonsson, Suso etc. That JJ took to third and Sergio won the cup with?

[Mars plastic]

1 minute ago, Barack said:

Yes, it is.

 

Those you've mentioned, plus:

 

Driver

Templeton 

Novikovas

Holt

Skacel.

 

Bring on any of those options, and we had, pace, directness, & a freak goal scoring midfield machine.

 

We're reliant on Cochrane & McDonald. 17 year old boys.

 

 

 

 

The monotone paraffin lamp should have been emptied for telling Holt he was free to leave if he wanted more game time.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

5 minutes ago, Barack said:

Yes, it is.

 

Those you've mentioned, plus:

 

Driver

Templeton 

Novikovas

Holt

Skacel.

 

Bring on any of those options, and we had, pace, directness, & a freak goal scoring midfield machine.

 

We're reliant on Cochrane & McDonald. 17 year old boys.

 

 

 

 

 

Fair enough. But I'm still not buying this argument that our midfield is uniquely terrible and that the guy in charge of all football matters at the club for four years somehow has nothing to do with it and is the man to fix it. 

 

Yeah, further reflection, Skacel was only thing keeping JJ and PS from dull mediocrity. Not fair to compare to now. 

Edited April 24, 2018 by Eldar Hadzimehmedovic

[Escobar PHM]

16 minutes ago, Eldar Hadzimehmedovic said:

 

 

Again on the midfield - is Adao, Djoum, Cowie, Cochrane, and MacDonald really that much worse then Mrowiec, Black, Barr, Jonsson, Suso etc. That JJ took to third and Sergio won the cup with?

.

Edited April 24, 2018 by Escobar PHM

[doctor jambo]

1 minute ago, Escobar PHM said:

Good point. I think the current crop are man for man better, significantly better in some cases. Only Black and Suso on their very best days would improve the raw quality in midfield that Levein has at his disposal

I'll have whatever you're smoking

 

the kids are raw, I'll give you that

but Djoum has been injured or off

Cowie a bit past it

 

and as was mentioned that is half-a list of our midfield- we still had Skacel, Temps et all who would walk into this side