God in a Nutshell

[P-Dizzle]

And before someone trots out the "religion causes wars" line, the two worse culprits and their regimes were Hitler and Stalin, which church did they go to now? (And again please no "Hitler was a Christian" nonsense - he is quoted multiple times calling Christianity for everything and you only have to read the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer to know what a nonsense that really is).

 

Hitler was raised Catholic, but he wasn't a Christian. This didn't stop him from noticing how the church could be exploited, placing copies of Mein Kampf in so called Reich Church. Religious or not, you'd be a fool not to exploit it if you had ambitions similar to Hitler.

 

These cases are irrelevant anyway, these people didn't carry out their atrocities because they were atheist. Nobody has said that if mankind finally let go of religion everything would be fine, but certain problems would be a whole lot better. So you can't bring up Hitler, Stalin or Mao as an argument in favour of religion, because these acts weren't carried out on behalf of their particular belief in a god.

[P-Dizzle]

Yes I "just know" God is real, but there is a lot more to it than that.

 

And how can you claim this knowledge, how were you able to obtain it and why has your loving god denied it to me?

[BigC]

LOL, good one. I would like to think my IQ is above average too, but all those exams i passed must have been a fluke.

 

So humans are more intelligent and knowledgeable now? Hmmm debatable, I think you would have to go some to find a century quite like the 20th to provide enough evidence that humanity is not as intelligent as we like to think. Yes, we can design some amazing things for sure, like tanks, planes and atomic bombs to slaughter each other with. How wonderfully evolved we all are.

 

And before someone trots out the "religion causes wars" line, the two worse culprits and their regimes were Hitler and Stalin, which church did they go to now? (And again please no "Hitler was a Christian" nonsense - he is quoted multiple times calling Christianity for everything and you only have to read the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer to know what a nonsense that really is).

 

How did you get on with science? Whilst there are many intelligent Christians, and I don't agree with people who try and go down the "All religious people are think line" many studies have shown that the more educated you are is science the less likely you are to believe in god.

 

Your assertion that most of the people in the world are religious is true but you should not take false comfort in consensus.

 

The fact is probably less than 1% of the population have what would be considered a very good knowledge of science, particularly when it comes to evolution or some of the theories that Stephen Hawking discusses like Newtonian laws of motion, relativity or M-theory.

 

Even in America where evolution is taught in schools, your average person could not tell you what speciation is (and as if to prove my point, google chrome spell check doesn't even know) or explain simple stuff like why "If people are descended from monkeys why are they not still turning in to monkeys".

 

If that were not the case I suspect the number of religious people would drop dramatically.

 

And on the Hitler thing, this debate is not even worth having. The list of direct quotes from Mein Kampf and countless speeches he made saying that his religion was his justification can be found here: http://nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

 

It's a very, very long list.

[ToYouToMe]

Hitler was raised Catholic, but he wasn't a Christian. This didn't stop him from noticing how the church could be exploited, placing copies of Mein Kampf in so called Reich Church. Religious or not, you'd be a fool not to exploit it if you had ambitions similar to Hitler.

 

These cases are irrelevant anyway, these people didn't carry out their atrocities because they were atheist. Nobody has said that if mankind finally let go of religion everything would be fine, but certain problems would be a whole lot better. So you can't bring up Hitler, Stalin or Mao as an argument in favour of religion, because these acts weren't carried out on behalf of their religion.

 

I did not say it was because they were atheists! There have been plenty of atrocities committed in the name of religion too, I am not completely blind to Christianity's (as in the religion, not the person Jesus Christ) faults. I said it was because they were human. Humans are not as intelligent and highly developed as we might like to think we are and the point I made was to counter the cliched "religion causes all wars" line.

 

In fact this is exactly what the bible teaches us, we are full of faults, we are limited, that is why God sent Jesus. The Christian faith in a nutshell.

[ToYouToMe]

How did you get on with science? Whilst there are many intelligent Christians, and I don't agree with people who try and go down the "All religious people are think line" many studies have shown that the more educated you are is science the less likely you are to believe in god.

 

Your assertion that most of the people in the world are religious is true but you should not take false comfort in consensus.

 

The fact is probably less than 1% of the population have what would be considered a very good knowledge of science, particularly when it comes to evolution or some of the theories that Stephen Hawking discusses like Newtonian laws of motion, relativity or M-theory.

 

Even in America where evolution is taught in schools, your average person could not tell you what speciation is (and as if to prove my point, google chrome spell check doesn't even know) or explain simple stuff like why "If people are descended from monkeys why are they not still turning in to monkeys".

 

If that were not the case I suspect the number of religious people would drop dramatically.

 

And on the Hitler thing, this debate is not even worth having. The list of direct quotes from Mein Kampf and countless speeches he made saying that his religion was his justification can be found here: http://nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

 

It's a very, very long list.

 

Two quick replies

 

(1) On science - what about Christian scientists? John Lennox at Oxford being the most prominent figure. Science is not the sole preserve of non-believers.

 

(2) On Hitler - it was his warped view (and huge re-interpretation) of his religion that partly inspired him no doubt, that is not the same as being able to say that Hitler was a good God-fearing guy. You cannot seriously be suggesting that a monster who killed millions of people was a true follower of Jesus Christ? Have you read the gospels?

[P-Dizzle]

In fact this is exactly what the bible teaches us, we are full of faults, we are limited, that is why God sent Jesus. The Christian faith in a nutshell.

 

 

 

So your god, who created the universe, our planet and all life upon it, created humans with countless flaws and faults that has lead to the suffering and death of billions from the time we broke away from the other primates. And, naturally, the best way to fix this is to impregnate a Nazarene virgin and just hope that a desert Rabbi's message can spread around the world and save mankind.

 

 

 

 

It's flawless, right enough. :Vlad-Stupid:

[Fourcandles]

Yes I "just know" God is real, but there is a lot more to it than that.

 

Josh McDowell's The Evidence that Demands a Verdict sets it all out much better than I could, especially with my low God-believing IQ after all! LOL.

 

And all the hundreds of other gods are man made - do you realise how arrogant that sounds, you too are an athiest to all the other gods created by man - some of us simply go one further.

 

Also no I dont think that believers are are necessarily of a lower IQ....however the answer to why some people are susceptible to religious belief will in the not to distant future be explained neuroscience.

 

As to why religion has persisted for so long well, hammer it into children at a young age, promote it to the hopeless of the developing world, pander to the penchant for 'pascals wager' in many people and bring up people through the past few centuries with the carrot (heaven) and stick (hell) approach and hey presto result.

 

There is no omnicient being its so so obvious, open your eyes to what happens in the natural world, our own evolution, man made wishful thinking and real world science.

 

Religion in developed western Europe is declining at an incredible rate, it already marginalised and will eventually be left to a tiny minority of ardent followers.

 

.

[ToYouToMe]

So your god, who created the universe, our planet and all life upon it, created humans with countless flaws and faults that has lead to the suffering and death of billions from the time we broke away from the other primates. And, naturally, the best way to fix this is to impregnate a Nazarene virgin and just hope that a desert Rabbi's message can spread around the world and save mankind.

 

 

It's flawless, right enough. :Vlad-Stupid:

 

You clearly have never read the very Bible that you argue against. Read Genesis and you will see that no God did not create the world with any flaws.

[Juan Rom?n Riquelme]

Quite a talented cat, this God fellow.

[2NaFish]

You clearly have never read the very Bible that you argue against. Read Genesis and you will see that no God did not create the world with any flaws.

 

Satan did, right? But whence Satan?

[P-Dizzle]

You clearly have never read the very Bible that you argue against. Read Genesis and you will see that no God did not create the world with any flaws.

 

But there are flaws in the world, and there are many flaws with humans as you described earlier. Seeing as this is all a direct result of the creation of god, is it not safe to assume that an omniscient deity is responsible for this? If we're to take Genesis as fact, then he couldn't even stop his creations ******* everything up by eating an apple, so what kind of god is this that I'm supposed to be putting my faith in?

[i8hibsh]

Only 38% of Britons believe in God.

 

The stats show it's in decline all over Europe.

 

So hopefully yes, I do believe it will die. The more intelligent and knowledgeable we get, the less likely the sky fairy belief will be. Another fact studies have shown, Higher the IQ - Less likely to believe in God.

 

Why do atheists care, well for me personally, I'm really intolerant when it comes to stupidity.

 

Thing is it is nothing about intelligence. Some of the greatest minds to have ever lived have been ?believers?.

 

It is just people who feel the need to seek something more than is actually there. They can?t accept reality. These are probably the same people that believe in conspiracy theories for absolutely everything.

 

Reality makes non sense to them. They want so much for there to be something so much more.

 

Reality is ? there isn?t.

[Fourcandles]

You clearly have never read the very Bible that you argue against. Read Genesis and you will see that no God did not create the world with any flaws.

 

Do you believe in the Genesis creation story ?

 

[BigC]

Two quick replies

 

(1) On science - what about Christian scientists? John Lennox at Oxford being the most prominent figure. Science is not the sole preserve of non-believers.

 

(2) On Hitler - it was his warped view (and huge re-interpretation) of his religion that partly inspired him no doubt, that is not the same as being able to say that Hitler was a good God-fearing guy. You cannot seriously be suggesting that a monster who killed millions of people was a true follower of Jesus Christ? Have you read the gospels?

 

1. I said there is a direct correlation between someone's science education and the likelihood of them being an atheist. I didn't say there were no Christian scientists.

 

There are several examples of brilliant scientists who believe in god, from Newton right up to Francis Collins who ran the Human Genome Project. I never said Christians couldn't be good scientists and I didn't challenge you to name a decent scientist who believes in god because I know there are many. There are however many more who are not and my point still stands that the more you learn, the more likely you are to reject religious dogma.

 

2. I never said Hitler was a good god fearing guy. If he followed the example of Jesus Christ he would not have done what he did. He was an evil guy who happened to believe in god and who happened to use religion to his advantage (which shows that religion can be used to make people do bad things).

 

I don't think the fact that he believed in god influenced his evilness. Only his power.

 

I make a point of not being the first to mention Hitler in debates on religion whenever I can for two reasons.

 

1. "Godwin's Law".

 

2. It's not relevant.

 

I do however always have that list of quotes in my back pocket for when someone tries to present the ridiculous argument that the Holocaust was done in the name of Atheism.

[i8hibsh]

LOL, good one. I would like to think my IQ is above average too, but all those exams i passed must have been a fluke.

 

So humans are more intelligent and knowledgeable now? Hmmm debatable, I think you would have to go some to find a century quite like the 20th to provide enough evidence that humanity is not as intelligent as we like to think. Yes, we can design some amazing things for sure, like tanks, planes and atomic bombs to slaughter each other with. How wonderfully evolved we all are.

 

And before someone trots out the "religion causes wars" line, the two worse culprits and their regimes were Hitler and Stalin, which church did they go to now? (And again please no "Hitler was a Christian" nonsense - he is quoted multiple times calling Christianity for everything and you only have to read the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer to know what a nonsense that really is).

 

 

I need to ask??..

 

Why do you worship someone that

 

Causes mass genocide, rape, murder, theft, ridicule, heartbreak, illness.

 

Why do you worship someone that brings young innocent lives into the world with disfigurement, disabilities, downs syndrome etc?

 

Why worship someone who let?s murderers off scot free?

 

Why is there so much inequality and poverty?

 

Why is God responsible only for the good in the world?

 

Why is there racism? Bigotry? And hatred?

 

Why have there been so many thousands of gods since time began (time being 4 billion years ago and not 4,000 years ago)

 

Why are his believers so against science? What are you hiding or scared of?

 

Why is war a ?fact of life??

 

Why is there death?

 

Why do so many good things happen to bad people and so many bad things happen to good people?

 

Why do children get raped? (often by his chosen people on Earth)

 

Why did he only decide to appear in the past 4,000 years?

 

Why did he create Aids?

 

Why does he give some places great weather and give some places the worst climate imaginable that kills millions.

 

Why has he never shown himself in his entire existence?

 

Why do people get bullied at school?

 

What has he got so much against homosexuality?

 

Why are people so intolerant?

 

Why is the bible (which is allegedly his word) so bleedin awful. /Why is murder and death mentioned so frequently in the bible?

 

Why does he take a day off on a Sunday? My love in life never takes a day off.

 

Why are no-ones prayers answered?

 

Why did he tell people to blow themselves up in his name?

 

Why does he not see women as equals?

 

Why do some species go extinct?

 

Why is there so much pollution?

 

Why does he kill innocent beings before they have a chance to be born?

 

Why is there so much greed in the world?

 

Why do people cheat on people?

 

Why is there knife crime?

 

Why are there so many fights on his streets?

 

Why are there so many thugs and evil walking our streets?

 

Why are good people scared?

 

Why is there so many unsolved crimes?

 

Why do people have heart attacks?

 

Why are people born with holes in their hearts?

 

Why are some people born with learning difficulties?

 

Why do people commit suicide as they can no longer handle their life?

 

Why did my mates dad die so young? He was a decent man!

 

Why are there people so physically unattractive and some people are just ridiculously attractive?

 

Sorry if these questions posed are ?inconvenient? to his believers but I feel as inhabitants of his creation we have a right to know.

[i8hibsh]

Do you believe in the Genesis creation story ?

 

 

 

Watch Ricky Gervais stand up show 'animals' it is hilarious.

 

He destroys Genesis (not the band)

[Fourcandles]

Two quick replies

 

(1) On science - what about Christian scientists? John Lennox at Oxford being the most prominent figure. Science is not the sole preserve of non-believers.

 

(2) On Hitler - it was his warped view (and huge re-interpretation) of his religion that partly inspired him no doubt, that is not the same as being able to say that Hitler was a good God-fearing guy. You cannot seriously be suggesting that a monster who killed millions of people was a true follower of Jesus Christ? Have you read the gospels?

 

There is a monster who killed millions of people in the old testament.

 

According to the OT God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

 

Of course that's not including the countless numbers who would have been murdered if the flood story was true..

 

Also you should bear in mind that it could be argued that if Hell were true then God is in fact worse than Hitler - How should we think of God?s sending people to hell? Not like Stalin sending people to exile in Siberia. It ought not even to be thought of as like Hitler sending people to the gas chambers of Auschwitz. For both of these are tame in comparison with the horror of being sent to hell. At least Auschwitz, Belsen, and the rest were death camps, finite in duration both for those who died and for those who survived. Hell, however, offers no such finality to those of us who are to fill its chambers. None will emerge from its torment, and its tortures will continue forever and ever.

 

Its just as well this a man made monster.

 

[i8hibsh]

There is a monster who killed millions of people in the old testament.

 

According to the OT God kills 371,186 people directly and orders another 1,862,265 people murdered.

 

Of course that's not including the countless numbers who would have been murdered if the flood story was true..

 

Also you should bear in mind that it could be argued that if Hell were true then God is in fact worse than Hitler - How should we think of God?s sending people to hell? Not like Stalin sending people to exile in Siberia. It ought not even to be thought of as like Hitler sending people to the gas chambers of Auschwitz. For both of these are tame in comparison with the horror of being sent to hell. At least Auschwitz, Belsen, and the rest were death camps, finite in duration both for those who died and for those who survived. Hell, however, offers no such finality to those of us who are to fill its chambers. None will emerge from its torment, and its tortures will continue forever and ever.

 

Its just as well this a man made monster.

 

 

 

 

Hitler's spree of evil only lasted 2 decades. God's has lasted 4 millenia!

 

God was far worse than Hitler.

 

Infact God created the following people

 

Attila The Hun

Bad King John

Caligula

Francisco Pizarro

Hitler

Idi Amin

Ivan the Terrible

Joseph Stalin

Nero

Pol Pot

Rasputin

Torquemada

Vlad the Impaler

Ted Bundy

Jeffrey Dahmer

Pedro Alonso Lopez

H. H. Holmes

John Wayne Gacy

dennis rader

Mr and Mrs Fred West

Luis Garavito

Gary Ridegway

Elizabeth B?thory

lenny murphy

Jack The Ripper

John Bunting and Robert Wagner

Anatoly Onoprienko

Andrei Chikatilo

Richard "Ice Man" Kuklinski

Ed Gein

Moses Sithole

J. W. Booth

L. H. Oswald

Charles Manson

Myra Hindley and Ian Brady

Dr.Harold Shipman

Alexander Pichushkin

Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr

Saddam Hussein

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Another fact studies have shown, Higher the IQ - Less likely to believe in God.

 

 

Source?

[Sten Guns]

Yes I "just know" God is real, but there is a lot more to it than that.

 

Finally. We might get some evidence.

 

Please share with us how you know!?

 

Scott, why don't you follow Islam?

[Sten Guns]

Source?

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-less-likely-to-believe-in-God.html

 

People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God, according to a new study.

 

Professor Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at Ulster University, said many more members of the "intellectual elite" considered themselves atheists than the national average.

 

A decline in religious observance over the last century was directly linked to a rise in average intelligence, he claimed.

 

But the conclusions - in a paper for the academic journal Intelligence - have been branded "simplistic" by critics.

 

Professor Lynn, who has provoked controversy in the past with research linking intelligence to race and sex, said university academics were less likely to believe in God than almost anyone else.

 

A survey of Royal Society fellows found that only 3.3 per cent believed in God - at a time when 68.5 per cent of the general UK population described themselves as believers.

 

A separate poll in the 90s found only seven per cent of members of the American National Academy of Sciences believed in God.

 

Professor Lynn said most primary school children believed in God, but as they entered adolescence - and their intelligence increased - many started to have doubts.

 

He told Times Higher Education magazine: "Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population. Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God."

 

He said religious belief had declined across 137 developed nations in the 20th century at the same time as people became more intelligent.

 

But Professor Gordon Lynch, director of the Centre for Religion and Contemporary Society at Birkbeck College, London, said it failed to take account of a complex range of social, economic and historical factors.

 

"Linking religious belief and intelligence in this way could reflect a dangerous trend, developing a simplistic characterisation of religion as primitive, which - while we are trying to deal with very complex issues of religious and cultural pluralism - is perhaps not the most helpful response," he said.

 

Dr Alistair McFadyen, senior lecturer in Christian theology at Leeds University, said the conclusion had "a slight tinge of Western cultural imperialism as well as an anti-religious sentiment".

 

Dr David Hardman, principal lecturer in learning development at London Metropolitan University, said: "It is very difficult to conduct true experiments that would explicate a causal relationship between IQ and religious belief. Nonetheless, there is evidence from other domains that higher levels of intelligence are associated with a greater ability - or perhaps willingness - to question and overturn strongly felt institutions."

[shaun.lawson]

Another fact studies have shown, Higher the IQ - Less likely to believe in God.

 

 

So in the huge swathes of the world in which believers often number close to 100% of the population, everyone's thick as mince, are they? I see.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The frantic desperation of so many in our society to not just disagree with those of faith, but to sneer at, condescend, label and essentially attempt to deny them their right to that faith at all, is indicative of what, in large parts of the West, and certainly Britain, has become an astoundingly empty, vacuous culture, which is doing very serious, lasting damage.

 

Greed. Selfishness. Decadence. Decay. A society which treats both its children, and even more its old, with disgusting, shameless levels of contempt. A society in which, once someone is too old to work, they're discarded onto the scrapheap as though they're not a human being at all; but rather, a commodity, no longer of any use to anyone. A society in which neighbours don't talk to one another; commuters stand on the same platform at the same time every day, yet ignore each other forever; a society lacking values of respect, discipline, or even simple community; a society in which the breakdown of the family, caused in considerable part by our rampant individualism and greed, is an absolute and ongoing catastrophe. A society which routinely disdains all its political leaders: yet in which so, so few are willing to work together for the common good. "I'm alright, Jack - and if you don't like it, **** off somewhere else".

 

A society which has come to view everything - literally everything - in terms of money. Meaning people aren't allowed to enjoy a decent quality of life, but are instead expected to work longer and longer hours for ludicrously low levels of pay; don't have time to cook proper, wholesome meals and sit down as a family; are terrified of letting their kids out to play and enjoy themselves; and which has raised an entire generation of couch potatoes whose idea of mental stimulation is yet another evening on the Playstation. But hey folks, don't worry: if we run out of anything, we can always just go bomb some more poor people and rape more of their precious resources. Go us.

 

Yet in those many societies in which belief remains extremely strong, you know what's really striking? People have far less materially, but far more spiritually. These societies protect their young and laud their old in a way ours does not: these societies maintain a sense of extended family throughout the lives of all their citizens. And when Westerners visit, they're welcomed with a kindness and humility which puts us to shame.

 

Yet what do we do? We disdain them. It's ludicrous. We know the cost of everything and the value of nothing; their approach, sharing what little food or money they have, and a sense of community which is on another planet from the dislocated, alienated society in which we live, is almost the complete opposite. Human beings need love, support and to rely on each other: not merely at times of need, but at all times. These societies - who deal with infinitely more adversity than any of us will ever experience at any point in our lives, and have faith and God right at their very epicentre - understand this in a way ours never will... and that means that in our faithless, libertine, hollow, over-sexualised world, the joke is very much on us.

[Fourcandles]

Shaun the world you so eloquently crave has nothing do with Religiosity.

 

In fact the major societal Indices clearly show that its the more secular countries that score highest in all the ways you crave.e.g.

 

1. Human Development Index

2. Global Peace Index

3. Gender Equality

4. Life expectancy

5. Quality of Life

6. Most Competitive Economy

7. Economic Freedom

8. Gay Rights

9. Obesity

10. Adults at High Literacy Level

11. Environment

12. Open Access to Research

13. Asylum Seeker Acceptance Rates

14. Aid to Developing Countries

 

The highest scoring nations are almost all the secular european nations.

 

How is driving up the above going to be done by a returning to a religiose state ?

 

.

[Snake Plissken]

Ahhh a religious debate on Kickback.

 

Again.

 

The Atheists use LOGIC.

 

It's not very effective on the religious.

 

The Religious use FAITH.

 

It's not very effective on the atheists.

 

Over and over and over and over and over

like a monkey with a miniature symbol

[ToYouToMe]

So in the huge swathes of the world in which believers often number close to 100% of the population, everyone's thick as mince, are they? I see.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The frantic desperation of so many in our society to not just disagree with those of faith, but to sneer at, condescend, label and essentially attempt to deny them their right to that faith at all, is indicative of what, in large parts of the West, and certainly Britain, has become an astoundingly empty, vacuous culture, which is doing very serious, lasting damage.

 

Greed. Selfishness. Decadence. Decay. A society which treats both its children, and even more its old, with disgusting, shameless levels of contempt. A society in which, once someone is too old to work, they're discarded onto the scrapheap as though they're not a human being at all; but rather, a commodity, no longer of any use to anyone. A society in which neighbours don't talk to one another; commuters stand on the same platform at the same time every day, yet ignore each other forever; a society lacking values of respect, discipline, or even simple community; a society in which the breakdown of the family, caused in considerable part by our rampant individualism and greed, is an absolute and ongoing catastrophe. A society which routinely disdains all its political leaders: yet in which so, so few are willing to work together for the common good. "I'm alright, Jack - and if you don't like it, **** off somewhere else".

 

A society which has come to view everything - literally everything - in terms of money. Meaning people aren't allowed to enjoy a decent quality of life, but are instead expected to work longer and longer hours for ludicrously low levels of pay; don't have time to cook proper, wholesome meals and sit down as a family; are terrified of letting their kids out to play and enjoy themselves; and which has raised an entire generation of couch potatoes whose idea of mental stimulation is yet another evening on the Playstation. But hey folks, don't worry: if we run out of anything, we can always just go bomb some more poor people and rape more of their precious resources. Go us.

 

Yet in those many societies in which belief remains extremely strong, you know what's really striking? People have far less materially, but far more spiritually. These societies protect their young and laud their old in a way ours does not: these societies maintain a sense of extended family throughout the lives of all their citizens. And when Westerners visit, they're welcomed with a kindness and humility which puts us to shame.

 

Yet what do we do? We disdain them. It's ludicrous. We know the cost of everything and the value of nothing; their approach, sharing what little food or money they have, and a sense of community which is on another planet from the dislocated, alienated society in which we live, is almost the complete opposite. Human beings need love, support and to rely on each other: not merely at times of need, but at all times. These societies - who deal with infinitely more adversity than any of us will ever experience at any point in our lives, and have faith and God right at their very epicentre - understand this in a way ours never will... and that means that in our faithless, libertine, hollow, over-sexualised world, the joke is very much on us.

 

 

This is a very prophetic piece of writing, absolutely spot on.

[shaun.lawson]

Shaun the world you so eloquently crave has nothing do with Religiosity.

 

In fact the major societal Indices clearly show that its the more secular countries that score highest in all the ways you crave.e.g.

 

1. Human Development Index

2. Global Peace Index

3. Gender Equality

4. Life expectancy

5. Quality of Life

6. Most Competitive Economy

7. Economic Freedom

8. Gay Rights

9. Obesity

10. Adults at High Literacy Level

11. Environment

12. Open Access to Research

13. Asylum Seeker Acceptance Rates

14. Aid to Developing Countries

 

The highest scoring nations are almost all the secular european nations.

 

How is driving up the above going to be done by a returning to a religiose state ?

 

.

 

Yet why is much of that? Imperalism and exploitation of large swathes of the rest of the world - meaning we get rich, and they get poorer and poorer. And I'm not talking about returning to a religious state: I am talking about simple respect for those of faith, respect which is almost entirely absent.

 

Undoubtedly, there are many things the societies I discussed can learn from us - chief amongst them: universal education; respect for women, homosexuals and all forms of minorities; and social freedoms - but there are also many things we can learn from them. The students I've taught this year have all been from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. They've been absolutely flabbergasted by the lack of a sense of community in Britain; the way neighbours ignore each other, and families don't stay together or speak every day. It bewilders the heck out of them.

 

Pretty much every single one of these students have a strong belief in God; and the Moslems amongst them observed Ramadan throughout August. Three weeks ago, I was invited by a group of them to share dinner with them after dusk: and picture the scene. 12 friends crowded into a small room which would normally fit only 3 or 4 at the most: carefully sharing out everything and looking out for one another, ensuring everyone had enough, and no-one went short.

 

I found this tiny, almost non-descript example highly revealing - and very touching, actually. Yet to judge by the attitudes of many on here, when they mention God, I'm apparently supposed to ridicule them and laugh in their face. In short: bollocks I am.

[Guest Just Came To Say Kello]

Ahhh a religious debate on Kickback.

 

Again.

 

The Atheists use LOGIC.

 

It's not very effective on the religious.

 

The Religious use FAITH.

 

It's not very effective on the atheists.

 

Over and over and over and over and over

like a monkey with a miniature symbol

 

the joy of repetition really is in youu

[P-Dizzle]

Shaun, are you saying that an increased "loss of faith" is the cause of our problems?

 

If faith was just a personal thing that people could console themselves with, then that'd be fine, but you know that it's not that simple. There will always be people who will twist and abuse something like religion to suit their own agenda. Like so many ideologies, the only problem with them is people.

 

e- Why should I respect someone's beliefs when they are so utterly devoid of evidence? It doesn't impair my ability to treat that person with respect, that doesn't mean I go around telling people that their faith is bullshit. I do enjoy discussing it, but I don't force myself upon people like you seem to suggest we 'bitter atheists' do.

[BigC]

Yet why is much of that? Imperalism and exploitation of large awathes of the rest of the world - meaning we get rich, and they get poorer and poorer. And I'm not talking about returning to a religious state: I am talking about simple respect for those of faith, respect which is almost entirely absent.

 

Undoubtedly, there are many things the societies I discussed can learn from us - universal education; respect for women, homosexuals and all forms of minorities; and social freedoms, chief amongst them - but there are also many things we can learn from them. The students I've taught this year have all been from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. They've been absolutely flabbergasted by the lack of a sense of community in Britain; the way neighbours ignore each other, and families don't stay together or speak every day. It bewilders the heck out of them.

 

Pretty much every single of these students has a strong belief in God; and the Moslems amongst them observed Ramadan throughout August. Three weeks ago, I was invited by a group of them to share dinner with them after dusk: and picture the scene. 12 friends crowded into a small room which would normally fit only 3 or 4 at the most: carefully sharing out everything and looking out for one another.

 

I found this tiny, almost non-descript example highly revealing - and very touching, actually. Yet to judge by the attitudes of many on here, when they mention God, I'm apparently supposed to ridicule them and laugh in their face. In short: bollocks I am.

 

Why respect "People of faith".

 

The last two words are in necessary. Why not just respect people.

 

People need protection. Ideas do not. There is nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade.

 

If an idea is stupid to you, you need to be free to say so.

 

By all means do it politely.

 

Whilst I'm sure the people you had dinner with were very nice, it doesn't make them right about god. I was invited to a Humanist slow cooking event which I didn't bother attending because I have a busy social life, I'm sure I would have felt the same sense of community you felt.

 

Your story really doesn't enhance your argument.

[BigC]

So in the huge swathes of the world in which believers often number close to 100% of the population, everyone's thick as mince, are they? I see.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The frantic desperation of so many in our society to not just disagree with those of faith, but to sneer at, condescend, label and essentially attempt to deny them their right to that faith at all, is indicative of what, in large parts of the West, and certainly Britain, has become an astoundingly empty, vacuous culture, which is doing very serious, lasting damage.

 

Greed. Selfishness. Decadence. Decay. A society which treats both its children, and even more its old, with disgusting, shameless levels of contempt. A society in which, once someone is too old to work, they're discarded onto the scrapheap as though they're not a human being at all; but rather, a commodity, no longer of any use to anyone. A society in which neighbours don't talk to one another; commuters stand on the same platform at the same time every day, yet ignore each other forever; a society lacking values of respect, discipline, or even simple community; a society in which the breakdown of the family, caused in considerable part by our rampant individualism and greed, is an absolute and ongoing catastrophe. A society which routinely disdains all its political leaders: yet in which so, so few are willing to work together for the common good. "I'm alright, Jack - and if you don't like it, **** off somewhere else".

 

A society which has come to view everything - literally everything - in terms of money. Meaning people aren't allowed to enjoy a decent quality of life, but are instead expected to work longer and longer hours for ludicrously low levels of pay; don't have time to cook proper, wholesome meals and sit down as a family; are terrified of letting their kids out to play and enjoy themselves; and which has raised an entire generation of couch potatoes whose idea of mental stimulation is yet another evening on the Playstation. But hey folks, don't worry: if we run out of anything, we can always just go bomb some more poor people and rape more of their precious resources. Go us.

 

Yet in those many societies in which belief remains extremely strong, you know what's really striking? People have far less materially, but far more spiritually. These societies protect their young and laud their old in a way ours does not: these societies maintain a sense of extended family throughout the lives of all their citizens. And when Westerners visit, they're welcomed with a kindness and humility which puts us to shame.

 

Yet what do we do? We disdain them. It's ludicrous. We know the cost of everything and the value of nothing; their approach, sharing what little food or money they have, and a sense of community which is on another planet from the dislocated, alienated society in which we live, is almost the complete opposite. Human beings need love, support and to rely on each other: not merely at times of need, but at all times. These societies - who deal with infinitely more adversity than any of us will ever experience at any point in our lives, and have faith and God right at their very epicentre - understand this in a way ours never will... and that means that in our faithless, libertine, hollow, over-sexualised world, the joke is very much on us.

 

I have never come across anyone who can say so much yet say so little.

 

Take away the favourable view of immigrants and this is just a 500 word Daily Mail headline.

 

"The UK has gone to the dogs and it's all because we have a lack of community to due our loss of faith".

 

zzzzzzzz

[GazzaBroon]

[personal abuse removed]

[shaun.lawson]

Shaun, are you saying that an increased "loss of faith" is the cause of our problems?

 

If faith was just a personal thing that people could console themselves with, then that'd be fine, but you know that it's not that simple. There will always be people who will twist and abuse something like religion to suit their own agenda. Like so many ideologies, the only problem with them is people.

 

e- Why should I respect someone's beliefs when they are so utterly devoid of evidence? It doesn't impair my ability to treat that person with respect, that doesn't mean I go around telling people that their faith is bullshit. I do enjoy discussing it, but I don't force myself upon people like you seem to suggest we 'bitter atheists' do.

 

I think it's a considerable part of them, yes. I am absolutely convinced that a more faith-based society would instinctively have a much greater sense of community, far less by way of hollow materialism, more charity, philanthrophy, and far less ignorance regarding the poor. Oh - a more faith-based society would have far fewer latchkey kids and teenage pregnancies, and far stronger marriages and families too.

 

But my problem isn't with people like you, LP. My problem is with fundamentalist atheists. Quite why they're so desperate to get the world to agree with everything they believe (or rather, don't believe), I have no idea; but I don't consider there to be any real difference between fundamentalist atheists, fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist Jews or fundamentalist Moslems. It's in this very fundamentalism and extremism - and in our society's case, in its wholly fundamentalist, extreme pursuit of neo-liberalism, materialism and sexualisation - that the problem can be found.

 

Why respect "People of faith".

 

The last two words are in necessary. Why not just respect people.

 

People need protection. Ideas do not. There is nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade.

 

If an idea is stupid to you, you need to be free to say so.

 

By all means do it politely.

 

Whilst I'm sure the people you had dinner with were very nice, it doesn't make them right about god. I was invited to a Humanist slow cooking event which I didn't bother attending because I have a busy social life, I'm sure I would have felt the same sense of community you felt.

 

Your story really doesn't enhance your argument.

 

Respect for all? Absolutely. Except our increasingly educated society nonetheless features monstrous levels of ignorance and contempt towards anyone it doesn't understand; anyone who seems 'different'. Which in a society based on individualism, is a quite bizarre phenomenon, to say the least.

[J Cheever Loophole]

Ahhh a religious debate on Kickback.

 

Again.

 

The Atheists use LOGIC.

 

It's not very effective on the religious.

 

The Religious use FAITH.

 

It's not very effective on the atheists.

 

Over and over and over and over and over

like a monkey with a miniature symbol

What a really good way to put it in a "Nutshell" but I will continue to believe in not believing.However, those that do,good luck to them.

[shaun.lawson]

I have never come across anyone who can say so much yet say so little.

 

Take away the favourable view of immigrants and this is just a 500 word Daily Mail headline.

 

"The UK has gone to the dogs and it's all because we have a lack of community to due our loss of faith".

 

zzzzzzzz

 

Your failure to engage with what I wrote above speaks volumes I'm afraid. It's what fundamentalist atheists always do.

[Guest Just Came To Say Kello]

Live and let live.

 

There's a higher proportion of cretins in the atheist camp anyway. The ones that go out their way to talk about it and slag off religion. Get better chat off a religious person.

[shaun.lawson]

Live and let live.

 

Exactly.

[Fourcandles]

I think it's a considerable part of them, yes. I am absolutely convinced that a more faith-based society would instinctively have a much greater sense of community, far less by way of hollow materialism, more charity, philanthrophy, and far less ignorance regarding the poor. Oh - a more faith-based society would have far fewer latchkey kids and teenage pregnancies, and far stronger marriages and families too.

 

But my problem isn't with people like you, LP. My problem is with fundamentalist atheists. Quite why they're so desperate to get the world to agree with everything they believe (or rather, don't believe), I have no idea; but I don't consider there to be any real difference between fundamentalist atheists, fundamentalist Christians, fundamentalist Jews or fundamentalist Moslems. It's in this very fundamentalism and extremism - and in our society's case, in its wholly fundamentalist, extreme pursuit of neo-liberalism, materialism and sexualisation - that the problem can be found.

 

 

 

Respect for all? Absolutely. Except our increasingly educated society nonetheless features monstrous levels of ignorance and contempt towards anyone it doesn't understand; anyone who seems 'different'. Which in a society based on individualism, is a quite bizarre phenomenon, to say the least.

 

 

Like the US for example were a highly Christian society fares worse than secular Europe in almost every social/societal quality you can list? (see the list I posted earlier)

 

Not.

 

.

[Sten Guns]

Ahhh a religious debate on Kickback.

 

Again.

 

The Atheists use LOGIC.

 

It's not very effective on the religious.

 

The Religious use FAITH.

 

It's not very effective on the atheists.

 

Over and over and over and over and over

like a monkey with a miniature symbol

 

Logic - deserves respect.

 

Religious 'Faith' however, warrants absolutely no respect whatsoever. None. Zilch. It should be ridiculed. Just like adult belief in Santa or the tooth fairy would be.

[Guest Just Came To Say Kello]

Logic - deserves respect.

 

Religious 'Faith' however, warrants absolutely no respect whatsoever. None. Zilch. It should be ridiculed. Just like adult belief in Santa or the tooth fairy would be.

 

No it shouldn't ffs. That's just so unbelievably moronic

 

It's clearly wrong - yes. But that doesn't mean it should be actively targeted for mocking. What is ridicule going to achieve other than giving you some smug self-satisfaction?

[shaun.lawson]

Like the US for example were a highly Christian society fares worse than secular Europe in almost every social/societal quality you can list? (see the list I posted earlier)

 

Not.

 

.

 

The US is the only example of this anywhere. This is because the American mentality appears to be something along the lines of:

 

"God bade us to go forth and make money".

 

As a result, the (not) Christian (not) right twist what Christanity actually is into something which suits only them - but then, that's what fundamentalists of any depiction always do.

 

Never heard of American exceptionalism? Amongst religious societies, the US are unique in mammon having almost entirely trumped spirituality: as can be seen in the country's continued, disgraceful lack of a proper social welfare net: something which should actually be a sine qua non for any genuinely Christian society.

[Sten Guns]

No it shouldn't ffs. That's just so unbelievably moronic

 

It's clearly wrong - yes. But that doesn't mean it should be actively targeted for mocking. What is ridicule going to achieve other than giving you some smug self-satisfaction?

 

It should be targeted. Read my signature for starters.

 

I fully agree with the premise that the world would be better off without religion.

 

Mr Condell sums up the issue of faith not warranting respect perfectly;

 

[Gizmo]

So in the huge swathes of the world in which believers often number close to 100% of the population, everyone's thick as mince, are they? I see.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The frantic desperation of so many in our society to not just disagree with those of faith, but to sneer at, condescend, label and essentially attempt to deny them their right to that faith at all, is indicative of what, in large parts of the West, and certainly Britain, has become an astoundingly empty, vacuous culture, which is doing very serious, lasting damage.

 

Greed. Selfishness. Decadence. Decay. A society which treats both its children, and even more its old, with disgusting, shameless levels of contempt. A society in which, once someone is too old to work, they're discarded onto the scrapheap as though they're not a human being at all; but rather, a commodity, no longer of any use to anyone. A society in which neighbours don't talk to one another; commuters stand on the same platform at the same time every day, yet ignore each other forever; a society lacking values of respect, discipline, or even simple community; a society in which the breakdown of the family, caused in considerable part by our rampant individualism and greed, is an absolute and ongoing catastrophe. A society which routinely disdains all its political leaders: yet in which so, so few are willing to work together for the common good. "I'm alright, Jack - and if you don't like it, **** off somewhere else".

 

A society which has come to view everything - literally everything - in terms of money. Meaning people aren't allowed to enjoy a decent quality of life, but are instead expected to work longer and longer hours for ludicrously low levels of pay; don't have time to cook proper, wholesome meals and sit down as a family; are terrified of letting their kids out to play and enjoy themselves; and which has raised an entire generation of couch potatoes whose idea of mental stimulation is yet another evening on the Playstation. But hey folks, don't worry: if we run out of anything, we can always just go bomb some more poor people and rape more of their precious resources. Go us.

 

Yet in those many societies in which belief remains extremely strong, you know what's really striking? People have far less materially, but far more spiritually. These societies protect their young and laud their old in a way ours does not: these societies maintain a sense of extended family throughout the lives of all their citizens. And when Westerners visit, they're welcomed with a kindness and humility which puts us to shame.

 

Yet what do we do? We disdain them. It's ludicrous. We know the cost of everything and the value of nothing; their approach, sharing what little food or money they have, and a sense of community which is on another planet from the dislocated, alienated society in which we live, is almost the complete opposite. Human beings need love, support and to rely on each other: not merely at times of need, but at all times. These societies - who deal with infinitely more adversity than any of us will ever experience at any point in our lives, and have faith and God right at their very epicentre - understand this in a way ours never will... and that means that in our faithless, libertine, hollow, over-sexualised world, the joke is very much on us.

 

I'm not sure where you live, but that does not describe where I live at all. Frankly, it doesn't even describe the Scotland I know. All those values of love, respect, support, sense of community, nurturing the weak, looking after the young and elderly, sharing, working together....you do know those very values are the ones that helped humanity survive and prosper. They PREDATE organised religion.

 

What you've written, albeit in a roundabout way, is still the old chestnut "atheists don't have morals". And it's still wrong.

 

Let's accept, however, your argument that some atheists are a bit more pushy these days. It's no different to the condescending "oh I weep for your soul" or "you'll repent on your deathbed" comments that I've had directly from the mouth of believers.

 

Respect is a two-way street, and the very fact that you would have a very, very difficult time being elected in the US as an openly atheist politician speaks volumes for the intolerance demonstrated by those of faith.

[Gizmo]

Logic - deserves respect.

 

Religious 'Faith' however, warrants absolutely no respect whatsoever. None. Zilch. It should be ridiculed. Just like adult belief in Santa or the tooth fairy would be.

 

See I differ here. I don't disrespect believers, as a lot of them are decent people who try to do good even if they are following a dogma that to me seems illogical, unsubstantiated and unnecessary. I will engage with believers and defend robustly my position, but I try not to ridicule as it doesn't serve the discussion.

 

And knowing people have been burned to death for their beliefs, or persecuted to extreme levels, that takes an incredible amount of devotion and faith that I find quite astounding.

 

I do agree with Pat Condell in so far as religion should not have the right to have blasphemy laws passed, curtail freedom of speech or demand some special right to "be offended".

[shaun.lawson]

I'm not sure where you live, but that does not describe where I live at all. Frankly, it doesn't even describe the Scotland I know. All those values of love, respect, support, sense of community, nurturing the weak, looking after the young and elderly, sharing, working together....you do know those very values are the ones that helped humanity survive and prosper. They PREDATE organised religion.

 

What you've written, albeit in a roundabout way, is still the old chestnut "atheists don't have morals". And it's still wrong.

 

Let's accept, however, your argument that some atheists are a bit more pushy these days. It's no different to the condescending "oh I weep for your soul" or "you'll repent on your deathbed" comments that I've had directly from the mouth of believers.

 

Respect is a two-way street, and the very fact that you would have a very, very difficult time being elected in the US as an openly atheist politician speaks volumes for the intolerance demonstrated by those of faith.

 

Ah - but I completely agree with all that I've emboldened. It is about respect, as you say.

 

Can I come and live in Scotland, please? If it's anything remotely like the socialist Utopia which you suggest, I want in.

[Fourcandles]

The US is the only example of this anywhere. This is because the American mentality appears to be something along the lines of:

 

"God bade us to go forth and make money".

 

As a result, the (not) Christian (not) right twist what Christanity actually is into something which suits only them - but then, that's what fundamentalists of any depiction always do.

 

Never heard of American exceptionalism? Amongst religious societies, the US are unique in mammon having almost entirely trumped spirituality: as can be seen in the country's continued, disgraceful lack of a proper social welfare net: something which should actually be a sine qua non for any genuinely Christian society.

 

 

The point is Shaun that I was comparing like with like, developed country with developed country.

Its the only relavent comparison.

and I reiterate my point the more secular developed countries do more to try to address the ills you so passionately talked about earlier. For example the countries which give the highest percentage of GDP in aid to the developing world are Norway, Luxemborg, Denmark and Sweden, massively more than the US (the major Christian developed nation)

 

You were saying earlier that religiosity equates to a better society, I was simply pointing out in terms of the developed world at least this does not stand up.

 

 

.

[BigC]

Your failure to engage with what I wrote above speaks volumes I'm afraid. It's what fundamentalist atheists always do.

 

You said literally nothing. That was my point. I will have another go to appease you. In the mean time could you explain how it is possible for an atheist to be a fundamentalist given that atheists do not have any doctrine to follow?

 

So in the huge swathes of the world in which believers often number close to 100% of the population, everyone's thick as mince, are they? I see. Not Thick. Ignorant (In most cases through no fault of their own). Religion is all they know and the myth is perpetuated. People who were told the earth was flat over 500 years ago were not thick for thinking the world was flat or passing that false information on to their kids. The enlightenment has not reached every corner of the world.

 

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The frantic desperation of so many in our society to not just disagree with those of faith, but to sneer at, condescend, label and essentially attempt to deny them their right to that faith at all, is indicative of what, in large parts of the West, and certainly Britain, has become an astoundingly empty, vacuous culture, which is doing very serious, lasting damage. People need protection. Ideas do not. There is nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade.

 

Greed. Selfishness. Decadence. Decay. A society which treats both its children, and even more its old, with disgusting, shameless levels of contempt. A society in which, once someone is too old to work, they're discarded onto the scrapheap as though they're not a human being at all; but rather, a commodity, no longer of any use to anyone. A society in which neighbours don't talk to one another; commuters stand on the same platform at the same time every day, yet ignore each other forever; a society lacking values of respect, discipline, or even simple community; a society in which the breakdown of the family, caused in considerable part by our rampant individualism and greed, is an absolute and ongoing catastrophe. A society which routinely disdains all its political leaders: yet in which so, so few are willing to work together for the common good. "I'm alright, Jack - and if you don't like it, **** off somewhere else".

 

A society which has come to view everything - literally everything - in terms of money. Meaning people aren't allowed to enjoy a decent quality of life, but are instead expected to work longer and longer hours for ludicrously low levels of pay; don't have time to cook proper, wholesome meals and sit down as a family; are terrified of letting their kids out to play and enjoy themselves; and which has raised an entire generation of couch potatoes whose idea of mental stimulation is yet another evening on the Playstation. But hey folks, don't worry: if we run out of anything, we can always just go bomb some more poor people and rape more of their precious resources. Go us. The world is a nasty place and we are the lucky few but we don't appreciate it. Right. Good. Got it. You have't set out any arguments as to why a lack of religion is a cause of this. You have simply said it is so. Any argument that is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

 

Yet in those many societies in which belief remains extremely strong, you know what's really striking? People have far less materially, but far more spiritually. These societies protect their young and laud their old in a way ours does not: these societies maintain a sense of extended family throughout the lives of all their citizens. And when Westerners visit, they're welcomed with a kindness and humility which puts us to shame. Please explain how people in poor countries protect their children better than us? I will grant you looking after the elderly. That is a problem in our society but I don't think it can be explained away by a lack of religion. Saying that foreigners give us a better welcome than we give them is very subjective and not backed up by anything. It's just your opinion and again not relevant to religiosity.

 

Yet what do we do? We disdain them. It's ludicrous. We know the cost of everything and the value of nothing; their approach, sharing what little food or money they have, and a sense of community which is on another planet from the dislocated, alienated society in which we live, is almost the complete opposite. Human beings need love, support and to rely on each other: not merely at times of need, but at all times. These societies - who deal with infinitely more adversity than any of us will ever experience at any point in our lives, and have faith and God right at their very epicentre - understand this in a way ours never will... and that means that in our faithless, libertine, hollow, over-sexualised world, the joke is very much on us. Again, all of the above is based on your opinion. Nothing is fact. My world has lots of love, I think sex is awesome and I don't feel alienated within my society. Certainly the world of advertising is over sexed, especially advertising aimed at kids, but I'm really having to be kind to you to make your points sound semi valid.

[BigC]

No it shouldn't ffs. That's just so unbelievably moronic

 

It's clearly wrong - yes. But that doesn't mean it should be actively targeted for mocking. What is ridicule going to achieve other than giving you some smug self-satisfaction?

 

It's not a should/shouldn't yes/no answer.

 

You clearly shouldn't walk up to a woman with a veil and stick a towel over your head and laugh at her.

 

But there is nothing wrong with a bit of George Carlin or the odd "fairy tale" jibe on an internet message board. People on here can say what they like about me (at their own risk).

 

Like everything it's about finding a balance.

 

Whilst politeness is important and free speech comes with responsibility, ridicule IS one of many ways of getting a serious point across.

 

Just look at politics in the USA. More people get their news from Jon Stewart than from MSNBC.

[mac]

God, like the invisible pink unicorn, is imaginary:

 

http://godisimaginary.com/i31.htm

 

[Fourcandles]

I doubt God is worried what any of these characters has to say to be honest. I am sure he cares for them, in fact loves them, but the views they espouse are largely insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Does anyone on here seriously believe that religion will die out?

 

Funny how there are billions of "deluded" folk in the world and only a small number of atheists with some sort of special knowledge of God's non-existence. If he does not exist then how do you explain the fact that worldwide the Christian faith keeps on growing? Mass delusion I suppose? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14838749

 

 

And another thing, why are the resident atheists on here so keen to start discussions about a non-existent being? I don't believe aliens exist but I don't recall ever feeling the need to start a thread on here to that effect even though I think belief in aliens is bizarre and a total waste of human effort and time.

 

 

I listened to the Radio 4 documentary that you inserted a link to above this evening about the growth of Christianity in China.

 

At one point the BBC reporter asked a Chinese rural peasnat why the whole village had converted to Christianity?

The reply was that he had heard that a man in the neighboring village had been cured of an illness after praying to the Christian God.

"so naturally we (the whole village) now are Christians" was his response.

 

Is it any wonder why Chritianity contiues to appeal to the poor of world.

 

[P-Dizzle]

I listened to the Radio 4 documentary that you inserted a link to above this evening about the growth of Christianity in China.

 

At one point the BBC reporter asked a Chinese rural peasnat why the whole village had converted to Christianity?

The reply was that he had heard that a man in the neighboring village had been cured of an illness after praying to the Christian God.

"so naturally we (the whole village) now are Christians" was his response.

 

Is it any wonder why Chritianity contiues to appeal to the poor of world.

 

 

No reasonable Christian would acknowledge that as proof of god, mainly because it's mayhem if you accept that god does heal some that appeal for help, but not others who may or may not have made the same request. Yet we are encouraged to believe that the truth of the bible is the core reason for the spread of this religion, what they don't say is that people are still buying into this faith for reasons that can already be attributed to natural causes.

 

These peasants being convinced that a man recovering from illness is proof if god is no different to the man who begged for the sun to come back round each night, for light so he can no longer fear the dark, for warmth and for food.