i8hibsh Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Ok let me be quite clear about this, this thread is not meant to offend anyone or intentionally wind people up. I know three are certain prominent posters on here who have strong religious beliefs and a guy who actually works with the church. I have been getting on better with these people in the past few years and by no means am I trying to change this. I have just recently been introduced to an American comic called George Carlin and his material is absolutely fantastic. Sadly he passed away a few years back. Here is a taste of what he was all about. Like me he is/was a huge social and religious critic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-RGN21TSGk Hope you enjoy and ideally post any other relative stuff. Pat Condell is also fantastic if you ever see his videos. Again, please let me reiterate that my intentions are not to aggravate or offend certain people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Dizzle Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 I hope you're familiar with Hitchens. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj_uv3tgrXM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Guns Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 I8, I'm a massive Pat Condell fan. He actually emailed me a while back thanking me for my support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted September 11, 2011 Author Share Posted September 11, 2011 I8, I'm a massive Pat Condell fan. He actually emailed me a while back thanking me for my support. The man articulates every single thought I have on religion. Would you be as kind as to send me by PM his email address? cheers Sten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted September 11, 2011 Author Share Posted September 11, 2011 I hope you're familiar with Hitchens. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj_uv3tgrXM Not overly familiar tbh although certainly knew of him. I will make myself more aware of his work from this day on tho. cheers PD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Dizzle Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Not overly familiar tbh although certainly knew of him. I will make myself more aware of his work from this day on tho. cheers PD You can lose hours just watching his videos on youtube, there's loads of debates on there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Guns Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 The man articulates every single thought I have on religion. Would you be as kind as to send me by PM his email address? cheers Sten I used this link, telling him to keep up the good work etc etc http://www.patcondell.net/page6/page6.php I got an email back, which I have since deleted, thanking me for the support. He said he was busy just now but fully intended keeping up his you tube clips as much as possible. What a guy. . Wasn't expecting anything back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fourcandles Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 What I find strangest in the beleivers mind is how they think their way round the obvious human desire to believe in a father or supervisory figure. In thinking about and trying to understand religion to me the fact that there are, and have been, so many Gods is the single biggest thing to tax my mind. On every continent through the millenia from Amazonian jungle tribes, all the hundreds of african tribes,from the high mountain peoples of the Urals to the himalayas every single one has invented a god or often several. For me to be a Christain or indeed Muslim I would have to dimiss all the hundreds of Greek, Norse or red Indian gods yet believe my God story was true would to me a step of arrogance and illogic too far. Does the thought that every other God is invented not ring alarm bells in peoples heads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted September 11, 2011 Author Share Posted September 11, 2011 Just googled Hitchens and it seems he has a few books out that would suit me a great deal. I'm very familiar with Dawkins work and have read a lot of his stuff but nothing of Hitchens. Really appreciate the recommendation - i'll pick up the 'God is not great' book up tomorrow and start me on my way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Guns Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Not overly familiar tbh although certainly knew of him. I will make myself more aware of his work from this day on tho. cheers PD You can't go wrong with Hitch. He is outstanding. Look him up on YouTube. Sadly suffering from cancer just now though. There is a great debate where Hitchens and Stephen Fry absolutely humiliate the Catholic Church. Part 1 Do you ever listen to Sam Harris? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i8hibsh Posted September 11, 2011 Author Share Posted September 11, 2011 What I find strangest in the beleivers mind is how they think their way round the obvious human desire to believe in a father or supervisory figure. In thinking about and trying to understand religion to me the fact that there are, and have been, so many Gods is the single biggest thing to tax my mind. On every continent through the millenia from Amazonian jungle tribes, all the hundreds of african tribes,from the high mountain peoples of the Urals to the himalayas every single one has invented a god or often several. For me to be a Christain or indeed Muslim I would have to dimiss all the hundreds of Greek, Norse or red Indian gods yet believe my God story was true would to me a step of arrogance and illogic too far. Does the thought that every other God is invented not ring alarm bells in peoples heads? What I hate most is being told that I MUST respect people's religions. Why is this? their religion certainly has no respect for me and my lifestyle. I have nothing but contempt for all religion. But do I hate religious people - most definately not. The whole worship thing baffles me. People worshiping an ideology and a creation over there own loved ones. It has been known for people to dishown their own children for being gay etc. God gets a credit for all good in the world but never blamed for the bad. Why does a beautiful birth have to be the work of God? why can't nature be responsible? Why is an innocent child being born with the proverbial losing hand and being disfigured or having downsyndrome 'God's way'? what kind of sick sadistic ***** is this guy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creepy Lurker Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Imagine it turned out God did actually exist was actually a walnut all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GazzaBroon Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Wether one believe's in God or not it's all about having faith in something either physical or invisible. Faith is like a security blanket some had when they were children. Turn up at a football match and most have faith in their team, they believe that their team can win and be the best. What would be the point in turning up if you had no faith in your team....Hibs as an example! Why knock the believers unless they insist in ramming it down your throat? If people want to follow their faith peacefully in private, then what harm are they doing? Faith in yourself, Faith in others are what makes life worth living. Without Faith there is no Hope therefore No Point in Living! Keep with this as it is very interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guXirzknYYE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fourcandles Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Hitchens is mesmeric orator in this one, this is undoubtedly the best of all his many appearances on youtube. Watch both parts > Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Doctor Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigC Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Hitchens is mesmeric orator in this one, this is undoubtedly the best of all his many appearances on youtube. Watch both parts > Whilst undoubtedly one of the best speakers against the parties of god, Hitchens is surely at his best when defending free speech. I'll see you IQ2 debate and raise you a debate in Canada: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizmo Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Just googled Hitchens and it seems he has a few books out that would suit me a great deal. I'm very familiar with Dawkins work and have read a lot of his stuff but nothing of Hitchens. Really appreciate the recommendation - i'll pick up the 'God is not great' book up tomorrow and start me on my way. There's a fundamental Christian that puts leaflets in the anti-God/religion books in Haddington library. God Is Not Great is a good read but it is more a series of essays than one cohesive rant. Hitchen is a particularly verbose writer, very talented, and should give your vocabulary a decent work out. What Dawkins says on people rejecting every other religion and God(s) is that most religions are born of an accident of birth, not deeply researched before being chosen. Quote: "We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert Pupkin Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Ok let me be quite clear about this, this thread is not meant to offend anyone or intentionally wind people up. I know three are certain prominent posters on here who have strong religious beliefs and a guy who actually works with the church. I have been getting on better with these people in the past few years and by no means am I trying to change this. I have just recently been introduced to an American comic called George Carlin and his material is absolutely fantastic. Sadly he passed away a few years back. Here is a taste of what he was all about. Like me he is/was a huge social and religious critic. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-RGN21TSGk Is that not the dude who played RUFUS in the BILL and TED movies? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigC Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 I won't dissect the whole video... to save time I'll just answer the three main points he makes about "Atheist delusions" although feel free to ask me to address other specific points if you would like to know my thoughts. 1. "Saying you can explain the universe without God is a delusion". I don't think that any atheist claims they can explain everything. What we can do is use science to understand things better. We claim that religion does not have all the answers, we claim that science doesn't either. We just think that science is a better way of gradually getting closer to the answers we all seek, especially compared to desert myths. 2. "The delusion that all humans are good" Whilst Humanist mission statements do seek to see the positives in all humans and work to the assumption that humans are all basically moral and good, this is not a dogma that is strictly followed and thought to be an absolute truth by all atheists. All humans are mammals and we are capable of everything that all other mammals are capable of. That includes, charity, working to the benefit of the group/pack/community/species but it also includes stealing, murder rape etc. Just because Humanists argue that you can be good without god, it does not mean they are deluded into thinking all humans are good. It's a classic straw man argument. 3. "Atheists believe they have the intellectual capacity to know everything" He slips this one in at the end then doesn't back it up. As per point one, no atheist claims to have the intellectual capacity to know everything. We only have the capacity to know what can be proved within the limitations of science. All the rest is guess work. ...and to throw that last point back in the face of Christians. You claim to have an explanation for everything. Goddunnit. The first cause argument is not answered at all. If you think the universe cannot be explained by something coming from nothing because it is too complex, how can it be acceptable for something more complex to be the answer? (As god surely must be more complex). Therefore, who created god? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Here is a taste of what he was all about. At 16 minutes and 40 seconds, it looks to me like a video version of tl;dr. What's his core point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulysses Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Likewise, at almost 6 minutes, it looks to me like a video version of tl;dr. What's his core point? Or has BigC explained that already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigC Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 At 16 minutes and 40 seconds, it looks to me like a video version of tl;dr. What's his core point? The short version of his opening to the IQ2 debate is this: Hitchens tells a story of how he was challenged in a previous debate by a Christian Minister to answer the following question yes or no: You are on your own in a foreign city, you don't know anyone. It gets dark, a group of 12 men are coming towards you and you feel a little intimidated. There is no-one else around. Would you be comforted if you knew the 12 men had just come from a prayer group? Hitchens explains why his answer was No, by saying "It has happened to me in Belfast, Baghdad, Beruit, Bosnia.... (and that's just the B's)" He went on to summarise the problems each place has had and how religion has made things worse in each place, making some very sound arguments for the abolition of faith schools in Belfast etc.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigC Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Likewise, at almost 6 minutes, it looks to me like a video version of tl;dr. What's his core point? Or has BigC explained that already? He takes a couple of Dawkins clips from "The Root of All Evil", says he's wrong without really explaining why or going into any details and then presents the three arguments I have refuted above as good counter arguments when you are discussing god with an atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJGJ Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 It's about faith --- something we cannot prove or disprove. If we want to live better lives then we act in a better manner and live our lives as best we can. There will always be those who wish to act for their own reasons -- usually all about power -- never seen a leader of a revolution who once completed then gave up power back to the people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swarlos Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 I enjoy reading through these threads, there's always alot of well articulated points put forward. Although it is an extremely circular argument. Religious people have blind faith therefore wont change their viewpoint no matter how logical and well founded the counter argument is. Has anyone actually changed from one "side" to the other after reading/watching a debate like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Is that not the dude who played RUFUS in the BILL and TED movies? I knew he seemed familiar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamboman1512 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 I have only watched a few of the videos on this thread so far and i have got to say George Carlin is funny as hell but also talks sense, i had never heard of Christopher Hitchens before but am definitely going to be looking for more videos of him. Thanks to i8, P-Dizzle and Sten. Top thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigC Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Like many on here I discovered Hitchens after reading his book about religion but he has so much more to offer. His book on Bill Clinton is cracking, his polemic attacks on Mother Teresa are awesome and really make you question media consensus and his book "Letters to a Young Contrarian" is filled with wisdom. (I'm struggling to get through his book on Orwell though... I need to read more Orwell). My vocabulary has also improved greatly! Sadly he has stage 4 metastatised throat cancer, has lost his voice and probably has months/weeks rather than years left to live. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamboman1512 Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 I have just watched the whole intelligence squared debate and was glad to see the final vote, common sense seems to have prevailed in more of the audiences minds than i thought would have, some excellent points put forward by Hitchens and Frye with absolutely none coming from the other side. Going to watch Hitchens free speech videos now, thanks BigC. Sad to hear about his illness and definitely going to check out his books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Grimes Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Like me he is/was a huge social and religious critic. seriously though, Carlin was ace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted September 11, 2011 Share Posted September 11, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mac Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 THE INVISIBLE PINK UNICORN IS MY IMAGINARY FRIEND http://www.uctaa.net/articles/meds/med15/med299.html Yes, I've got the t-shirt - had it on today, which reminded me to post on KB. "I can think of something (which incidentally I don't believe in) that you cannot prove does not exist. Therefore god (which incidentally I don't believe in) does not exist." Difficult to disagree on this - neither invisible pink unicorns or god can be proven or disproven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fourcandles Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 It's about faith --- something we cannot prove or disprove. If we want to live better lives then we act in a better manner and live our lives as best we can. There will always be those who wish to act for their own reasons -- usually all about power -- never seen a leader of a revolution who once completed then gave up power back to the people. One could postulate may things which can neither be proved or disproved, however this often leads to the fallacy that there is therefore a 50% chance of them being correct or incorrect. This is of course nonsense. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Rom?n Riquelme Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 George Carlin is the man. Christoper Hitchens is a right wing bampot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigC Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 George Carlin is the man. Christoper Hitchens is a right wing bampot. If you think that then you know literally nothing about him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Rom?n Riquelme Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Nope. His foreign policy with regards to the Middle East is frightening. He's a *****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigC Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Nope. His foreign policy with regards to the Middle East is frightening. He's a *****. Specifically, what has he said that is untrue/wrong in your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Dizzle Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcvgAMnMne0 He's just a right wing nutter though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 George Carlin is the man. Christoper Hitchens is a right wing bampot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Rom?n Riquelme Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Trollin' deep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Dizzle Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 If you say so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Trollin' deep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trotter Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 George Carlin is fantistic, his airport security rant in "You Are All Diseased" almost split me in two laughing. Weirdly, I was watching Dogma again the other night, where he ironically plays a Catholic Cardinal (albeit a massively crooked one) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToYouToMe Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I doubt God is worried what any of these characters has to say to be honest. I am sure he cares for them, in fact loves them, but the views they espouse are largely insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Does anyone on here seriously believe that religion will die out? Funny how there are billions of "deluded" folk in the world and only a small number of atheists with some sort of special knowledge of God's non-existence. If he does not exist then how do you explain the fact that worldwide the Christian faith keeps on growing? Mass delusion I suppose? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14838749 And another thing, why are the resident atheists on here so keen to start discussions about a non-existent being? I don't believe aliens exist but I don't recall ever feeling the need to start a thread on here to that effect even though I think belief in aliens is bizarre and a total waste of human effort and time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Guns Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I doubt God is worried what any of these characters has to say to be honest. I am sure he cares for them, in fact loves them, but the views they espouse are largely insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Does anyone on here seriously believe that religion will die out? Funny how there are billions of "deluded" folk in the world and only a small number of atheists with some sort of special knowledge of God's non-existence. If he does not exist then how do you explain the fact that worldwide the Christian faith keeps on growing? Mass delusion I suppose? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14838749 And another thing, why are the resident atheists on here so keen to start discussions about a non-existent being? I don't believe aliens exist but I don't recall ever feeling the need to start a thread on here to that effect even though I think belief in aliens is bizarre and a total waste of human effort and time. Only 38% of Britons believe in God. The stats show it's in decline all over Europe. So hopefully yes, I do believe it will die. The more intelligent and knowledgeable we get, the less likely the sky fairy belief will be. Another fact studies have shown, Higher the IQ - Less likely to believe in God. Why do atheists care, well for me personally, I'm really intolerant when it comes to stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moriarty Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I doubt God is worried what any of these characters has to say to be honest. I am sure he cares for them, in fact loves them, but the views they espouse are largely insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Does anyone on here seriously believe that religion will die out? Funny how there are billions of "deluded" folk in the world and only a small number of atheists with some sort of special knowledge of God's non-existence. If he does not exist then how do you explain the fact that worldwide the Christian faith keeps on growing? Mass delusion I suppose? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14838749 And another thing, why are the resident atheists on here so keen to start discussions about a non-existent being? I don't believe aliens exist but I don't recall ever feeling the need to start a thread on here to that effect even though I think belief in aliens is bizarre and a total waste of human effort and time. People are idiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToYouToMe Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Only 38% of Britons believe in God. The stats show it's in decline all over Europe. So hopefully yes, I do believe it will die. The more intelligent and knowledgeable we get, the less likely the sky fairy belief will be. Another fact studies have shown, Higher the IQ - Less likely to believe in God. Why do atheists care, well for me personally, I'm really intolerant when it comes to stupidity. LOL, good one. I would like to think my IQ is above average too, but all those exams i passed must have been a fluke. So humans are more intelligent and knowledgeable now? Hmmm debatable, I think you would have to go some to find a century quite like the 20th to provide enough evidence that humanity is not as intelligent as we like to think. Yes, we can design some amazing things for sure, like tanks, planes and atomic bombs to slaughter each other with. How wonderfully evolved we all are. And before someone trots out the "religion causes wars" line, the two worse culprits and their regimes were Hitler and Stalin, which church did they go to now? (And again please no "Hitler was a Christian" nonsense - he is quoted multiple times calling Christianity for everything and you only have to read the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer to know what a nonsense that really is). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Burgundy Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Not overly religious myself but I wonder how many people on this thread have contributed to the many R.I.P threads that have been posted if they dont believe in any sort of afterlife. Also if people dont believe in some sort of higher being then I assume they would agree then humans are simply nothing other than a highly intelligent organism and nothing more.As humans are by far the most wasteful and destructive animal on the planet should we not therefor be grateful for famine and disease as a way of keeping the numbers down and therefor helping sustain the life of the planet we live on. As I say I dont necessarily believe in a god such as is described in the bible but I do feel we are here for a purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Dizzle Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 I doubt God is worried what any of these characters has to say to be honest. I am sure he cares for them, in fact loves them, but the views they espouse are largely insignificant in the grand scheme of things. Does anyone on here seriously believe that religion will die out? Funny how there are billions of "deluded" folk in the world and only a small number of atheists with some sort of special knowledge of God's non-existence. If he does not exist then how do you explain the fact that worldwide the Christian faith keeps on growing? Mass delusion I suppose? http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-14838749 And another thing, why are the resident atheists on here so keen to start discussions about a non-existent being? I don't believe aliens exist but I don't recall ever feeling the need to start a thread on here to that effect even though I think belief in aliens is bizarre and a total waste of human effort and time. No atheist claims a "special knowledge" when they say they do not believe in god. We don't deal in revealed wisdom, unlike religion we don't base the truth of someone's statement on their claims that their mother was a virgin. I think you'll find that it's the religious amongst us that would claim that they can "just know" that god is real. An atheist is just someone who holds the arrogant belief that the entire universe wasn't created with them in mind. Again, you're equating the idea that intelligent life might exist beyond our planet to believing that an all-knowing, all-powerful creator is watching over us and when we die we spend eternity praising his name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToYouToMe Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 No atheist claims a "special knowledge" when they say they do not believe in god. We don't deal in revealed wisdom, unlike religion we don't base the truth of someone's statement on their claims that their mother was a virgin. I think you'll find that it's the religious amongst us that would claim that they can "just know" that god is real. An atheist is just someone who holds the arrogant belief that the entire universe wasn't created with them in mind. Again, you're equating the idea that intelligent life might exist beyond our planet to believing that an all-knowing, all-powerful creator is watching over us and when we die we spend eternity praising his name. Yes I "just know" God is real, but there is a lot more to it than that. Josh McDowell's The Evidence that Demands a Verdict sets it all out much better than I could, especially with my low God-believing IQ after all! LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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