Drylaw Hearts Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Back in with the one liners I see Drylaw. You are so insightful. I'm having a go at Vlad. Not motive but method. Please tell me in what way I'm having a "shocker". First you tell me what relevance the levels of worry an EPL team have about the OF on our chances of winning the SPL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Comedian Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 No point wasting money on transfer fees of that nature, what you get for 1m, 2m and even 3m can be got for free in terms of equivalent bosman talent. If he had the funds, wages are where the funds would need to be deployed, and that includes wages for a manager with proven track record. You mean what Rangers are doing. And look at the nick of them. We need guys like Jelavic, 4m fee and around 25k a week. Can Vlad afford talent like that? No. Could we afford Commons, a low fee but high wage? No. Will we sack our manager when we don't win the league? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Spackler Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 First you tell me what relevance the levels of worry an EPL team have on our chances of winning the SPL. I thought you might come back with that! The answer is none. I concede that, it's an old argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnjl Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 First you tell me what relevance the levels of worry an EPL team have about the OF on our chances of winning the SPL. I read it as Carl was trying to make out the old firm aren't very good. Correct IMO. Also IMO it would not take a ridiculous investment to put in a serious title challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanjambo Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 You mean what Rangers are doing. And look at the nick of them. We need guys like Jelavic, 4m fee and around 25k a week. Can Vlad afford talent like that? No. Could we afford Commons, a low fee but high wage? No. Will we sack our manager when we don't win the league? Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennyblack'sshot Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 No, I'm not joking. Yes he has spent money but we're exactly where we were before he came? Think back to Mercer/MacDonald or Robinson/Jeffries and tell me how much better off are we under vlads (very serious money)? The main difference is we have seen some seriously good foreign players in the team (Takis, Jankauskis, Bednar, Skacel, Bruno, Pinilla (briefly), Kingston (when he could be bothered)) and we have kept our good young/Scottish players longer and got better fees when they leave (Gordon, Hartley, Wallace, Driver, Berra, Temps, Jonnson all would have been gone after one good season and for a lot less money under previous owners). The overall pedigree of our signings has generally been better, at least on paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I read it as Carl was trying to make out the old firm aren't very good. Correct IMO. Also IMO it would not take a ridiculous investment to put in a serious title challenge. The OF aren't very good - not compared to the days of Laudrap or Larsson. However.... We may be able to put up a fight in the odd match v them but overall we are well short as in terms of ability to win matches we will be closer to the teams below rather than them above. We are WELL short of having a squad capable of getting anywhere near them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Spackler Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 The OF aren't very good - not compared to the days of Laudrap or Larsson. However.... We may be able to put up a fight in the odd match v them but overall we are well short as in terms of ability to win matches we will be closer to the teams below rather than them above. We are WELL short of having a squad capable of getting anywhere near them. The fundamental disagreement we have is you think we are WELL short, I think we are only a few players short. Anyway, peace. I'm off for the night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tynie Tom Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 The main difference is we have seen some seriously good foreign players in the team (Takis, Jankauskis, Bednar, Skacel, Bruno, Pinilla(briefly), Kingston (when he could be bothered)) and we have kept our good young/Scottish players longer and got better fees when they leave (Gordon, Hartley, Wallace, Driver, Berra, Temps, Jonnson all would have been gone after one good season and for a lot less money under previous owners). The overall pedigree of our signings has generally been better, at least on paper. Kind of agree but the original point I was responding to suggested that VR has very serious money and i'm suggesting that i haven't seen it yet. Hence our league status today compared to previous owners in years gone by. Although I have to question your thoughts on Jankauskis & Pinilla? Seriously? Yeah, they were on huge wages, but seriously mate? Stephan Adam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnjl Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 The OF aren't very good - not compared to the days of Laudrap or Larsson. However.... We may be able to put up a fight in the odd match v them but overall we are well short as in terms of ability to win matches we will be closer to the teams below rather than them above. We are WELL short of having a squad capable of getting anywhere near them. Nah I don't agree with 'well short'. We won't win the league with the squad we have right now though so until (or if) we get more players there's no point in debating it. JJ bought in the close season to compete for third of that I am sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Nah I don't agree with 'well short'. We won't win the league with the squad we have right now though so until (or if) we get more players there's no point in debating it. JJ bought in the close season to compete for third of that I am sure. George Burley brought in players to win the SPL because he had the budget. JJ was working with a far smaller kitty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnjl Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 George Burley brought in players to win the SPL because he had the budget. JJ was working with a far smaller kitty. I agree. JJ brought in players to cement third place then, perhaps, build from there. Don't have a problem with realism. Vlad has now said he wants the title. The next 24 days will tell how much he wants it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 I agree. JJ brought in players to cement third place then, perhaps, build from there. Don't have a problem with realism. Vlad has now said he wants the title. The next 24 days will tell how much he wants it. This actually worries me a bit. With the right contacts we don't need to spend millions on fees - but if we are to sign the players required to challenge then it'll cost us fortunes in wages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennyblack'sshot Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Kind of agree but the original point I was responding to suggested that VR has very serious money and i'm suggesting that i haven't seen it yet. Hence our league status today compared to previous owners in years gone by. Although I have to question your thoughts on Jankauskis & Pinilla? Seriously? Yeah, they were on huge wages, but seriously mate? Stephan Adam? Jankauskis is the finest player in terms of sheer quality and stature in the game (ie medals at the highest level) I have seen play for Hearts. He's played for top clubs in good leagues and has won things. The year before joining us he got a CL winners medals for goodness sake under Jose Mourinho! He started well and fizzled out like the team as a whole but anyone could see he was a great player. Pinilla proved before and after Hearts that he's quality - we just got him at a bad time (which was probably the only reason we got him). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnjl Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 This actually worries me a bit. With the right contacts we don't need to spend millions on fees - but if we are to sign the players required to challenge then it'll cost us fortunes in wages. It's certainly hard to predict what Romanov will do. It's not as if a bit of debt worried him much in the past. It could of course just be him sounding of to the players and press, encouraging them to aim high or he could be about to throw outrageous sums of money around. The thing is I doubt if Paolo Sergio would have taken a job without any room for signing players so I am expecting at least a couple of signings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozi Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Not for a minute suggesting we can challenge for the Championship, but, in Scotland, all that would be needed is a group of ambitious, motivated players in their early 20's who can pass a ball to each other. The Uglies recent record in Europe is no accident. They are not very good in the wider scale, just a couple of big fish in a small pond. Look at Borussia Dortmund. Nowhere near the buying or wage power of Bayern, but romped to the title last year. Lost their best player because they couldn't match the wages he could get from Real Madrid, so they used the transfer fee, and replaced him with other guys who were making the step up. They almost bankrupted themselves a while back chasing big name players and had to make the change. It can be done with the proper system and thinking in place. Sadly, not many clubs have the brains on board to do it. Certainly not us at the minute, but maybe Sergio can make a start. THIS in Holland no team can win the title outwith-Ajax,PSv....occasionally Feyenoord, but FC Twente broke that stranglehold in France no team from outwith Lyon,Marseille,PSG can win it but Bordeux broke the stranglehold the problem we have in this country is the self perpetuating doom merchants among the media who tell us all that we have no chance,the problem we have is finding someone with the belief to go for it,to find players who believe they can do it and (unfortunately) an owner who will never give the man in charge the chance to build a squad capable of doing it. if Romanov wants the title then he has to give PS time to get his ideas across,we won't win the title this year,not a hope in hell but if we give this man the time to build a team from the bottom up then who says it is not possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drylaw Hearts Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 It's certainly hard to predict what Romanov will do. It's not as if a bit of debt worried him much in the past. It could of course just be him sounding of to the players and press, encouraging them to aim high or he could be about to throw outrageous sums of money around. The thing is I doubt if Paolo Sergio would have taken a job without any room for signing players so I am expecting at least a couple of signings. I have no doubts he'll sign at least a couple of players - more than likely from his homeland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennyblack'sshot Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 George Burley brought in players to win the SPL because he had the budget. JJ was working with a far smaller kitty. The mistake both JJ and BUrley made was they played down Hearts title aspirations and stated third was a good result, There's no doubt this annoys Vlad. He wants the Scottish managers he hires to come out and state they want to win the league and he's right when he says they're kind of hard-wired to play second fiddle to the OF and they worry about what the media says if they do come out with title talk. But that doesn't mean he's right to sack them. In a way a European/Scottish mix, which is what Vlad seems to want is kind of a good idea. Other clubs have done it in England. Maybe Hearts should go for a Steve Clarke type in future - someone who can work with foreigners and is open to new ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Luffnan Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Just look at Rangers' forwards. Jelavic, Naismith and Lafferty - all of whom would walk into the Hearts side. Then they have the likes of Healy who has 35 international goals for Northern Ireland! I think it would be sensible to cut the wage bill by a further 40-50% from last year's level. A sustainable club living within its means and staying at Tynecastle would be my strategy at this point. Not tilting at SPL championship windmills. and all are shite loser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kennyblack'sshot Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 THIS in Holland no team can win the title outwith-Ajax,PSv....occasionally Feyenoord, but FC Twente broke that stranglehold in France no team from outwith Lyon,Marseille,PSG can win it but Bordeux broke the stranglehold the problem we have in this country is the self perpetuating doom merchants among the media who tell us all that we have no chance,the problem we have is finding someone with the belief to go for it,to find players who believe they can do it and (unfortunately) an owner who will never give the man in charge the chance to build a squad capable of doing it. if Romanov wants the title then he has to give PS time to get his ideas across,we won't win the title this year,not a hope in hell but if we give this man the time to build a team from the bottom up then who says it is not possible? Twente spent several million. Their star striker Bryan Ruiz cost 5m. Year after their title they spent 11m. Bordeux also spent 5m on a striker and the season after their title win they spent 25m (shows what CL money gets you). Give Hearts 5m and the money to pay a 5m player's wages and we might have a better chance. I agree it's possible to do it without spending all that money but very, very difficult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozi Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 that may be the case but in comparison to their more illustrious competitors this money was small fry,both teams had about half the budget of the clubs they were competing with and a long standing inferiority complex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VargasDa Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 The mistake both JJ and BUrley made was they played down Hearts title aspirations and stated third was a good result, There's no doubt this annoys Vlad. He wants the Scottish managers he hires to come out and state they want to win the league and he's right when he says they're kind of hard-wired to play second fiddle to the OF and they worry about what the media says if they do come out with title talk. But that doesn't mean he's right to sack them. In a way a European/Scottish mix, which is what Vlad seems to want is kind of a good idea. Other clubs have done it in England. Maybe Hearts should go for a Steve Clarke type in future - someone who can work with foreigners and is open to new ideas? Spot on, exactly what I was thinking. Vlad is not stupid, Don't really think he believes we will win league but should defo be saying that we can and have that positive mentality and not be defeatist against the bigot bros. That is where JJ got it wrong, we need a manager who has not got an inferiority complex and with a couple of decent and lucky signings you never know.We the only team in recent times that have pushed them but failed at the final hurdle, (98,06) And by lucky signings I mean low budget signings who really improve rapidly. It can happen, McCann,cameron,weir,adam,flogel etc. HHGH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamb09 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 "It can happen, McCann,cameron,weir,adam,flogel etc." Players that JJ signed and worked on back then? Am I right? With this seasons signings I thought JJ was on to something. I am sceptical about Sergio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cabbie754 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Stability of management is the key to success. Vlad is mad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amadjambo Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 How we could use signing an unknown who turns out to be special right now. Anyone know where we can find another Ricardo Fuller? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VargasDa Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 "It can happen, McCann,cameron,weir,adam,flogel etc." Players that JJ signed and worked on back then? Am I right? With this seasons signings I thought JJ was on to something. I am sceptical about Sergio. Will never slag JJ, he is a true Hearts legend but at the end of the day when we were in the mix we shit it. Not saying Sergio the answer but think we need someone with quality and good contacts that don't have the defeatist attitude regarding the bigo bros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drewjambobusby Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Problem is, that if Vlad is using the Yardstick of Competing for the League Title as a gauge of success and failure of a manager, then we are going to have another 10 managers in the next 5 years ?? As has been said previously, stability is the key. League titles are rarely won by a team who turn up for a season. They are groomed, have stability and eventually play the way the manager wants and success follows. There will be exceptions to that, but generally that is what a club like us would have to have, in order to succeed. I am not sure we will ever have that under Vlad as he looks short term and fires the gun !! One things for sure the current team (If all fit) with a few tasty additions (particularly an Attacking midfielder) would stand a chance in time to come, but instantly ? no. That would also depend, on holding onto (and teaching) the likes of Temps etc The problem with that is, a good offer comes in and we sell. You can`t build by selling your best players, no matter what the offer is ! Unfortunately we are in the financial situation whereby we cannot refuse a good offer. Therefore, League titles are a bit far fetched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mighty Thor Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I've simmed most of the thread so apologies if i've missed this point in the thread already. If Romanov seriously wanted the title then he should have invested very heavily in the youth set up 6 years ago. Had he done so we would be seeing the fruits of that in our 1st team round about now and we wouldn't be scrambling about the lower reaches of the SPL for journeymen players who could 'do a job'. We keep hearing about Hearts fabled youth policy but the reality is there is very little on our 'conveyor belt'. To me there is not enough questions being asked about the youth set up and whether it really is fit for purpose? Of course we have notable exceptions to the rule but our team is not littered with the product of Riccarton, in fact we aren't even close to other clubs with a similar youth structure such as our nearest challengers, Dundee United. Romanov wants the title? We are no colser to winning the league now than we have been at any time in my 30 years of going to Hearts matches. Fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 We are not going to get anywhere near the title this season and I would be amazed if we even managed a mid-term challenge like we did last season. Assuming Celtic win their game in hand we're currently eight points off the top of the league and it's only mid-August. You could look at that both ways but right now, for me, that gap is only going to get bigger. We've just got to hope that Paulo can turn this average squad into something that resembles a slick team. A Motherwell away game was probably the last thing we needed yesterday. Their players are only on a fraction of what ours are on, but they are organised, committed, in-your-face, pacey, up for it, and they all fight for their manager. I hate to say it, but it's going to take time for Paulo. My biggest fear there is not that he can't achieve, but that he doesn't get the time in which to achieve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney Rubble Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Well he's not goin to get it with former Killie, Motherwell or ICT players. He needs to spend I dont mean huge amounts (in football terms at least) just start matching the OF in wages, and get 5 or 6 players with a ?3m+ price tag. I agree we cant match the spending power needed, thats why 'best of the rest' is our target, If you want the title Vlad - you are going to have to dig deep. heh heh heh love the title did vlad really say that did paulo really say it aswell because according to a few hobos i know every single one of us BELIEVES ! Told them the only thing i believe is come the end of the season we will still finish above them but thats immaterial to them now they have this headline and their holding on to it ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nookie Bear Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I've simmed most of the thread so apologies if i've missed this point in the thread already. If Romanov seriously wanted the title then he should have invested very heavily in the youth set up 6 years ago. Had he done so we would be seeing the fruits of that in our 1st team round about now and we wouldn't be scrambling about the lower reaches of the SPL for journeymen players who could 'do a job'. We keep hearing about Hearts fabled youth policy but the reality is there is very little on our 'conveyor belt'. To me there is not enough questions being asked about the youth set up and whether it really is fit for purpose? Of course we have notable exceptions to the rule but our team is not littered with the product of Riccarton, in fact we aren't even close to other clubs with a similar youth structure such as our nearest challengers, Dundee United. Romanov wants the title? We are no colser to winning the league now than we have been at any time in my 30 years of going to Hearts matches. Fact. I agree. However even the best youth policies only produce one or two good players a season - THAT Manchester United team is held up as an example but is a serious exception. Closer to home, the wee team brought through some decent players a few years ago but they were never complimented by decent signings. We would always need to buy wisely (and expensively!) to top up even the best youth policy. Also, even our best youth players who break through are rarely as good as the best imports the old firm can bring in so we are always going to struggle to catch up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GD_JAMBO Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Twente spent several million. Their star striker Bryan Ruiz cost 5m. Year after their title they spent 11m. Bordeux also spent 5m on a striker and the season after their title win they spent 25m (shows what CL money gets you). Give Hearts 5m and the money to pay a 5m player's wages and we might have a better chance. I agree it's possible to do it without spending all that money but very, very difficult. lille done it barely spending it was a mixture of players brought through at the club from a young age hazard gervinho ect and good players brought in on a low tranfer this is what we need to do bring in denis holt and robinson and even smith and look 4 players like takis bednar janny like we did b4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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