Another UBIG Question

[jkato]

Have this mob ever actually built anything?

 

I know that they've got interests in mining, banking and a few other business interests, but what about major construction projects?

 

Their website only lists or mentions forthcoming projects, no completions.

 

Have they any track record in coming up with the goods, real estate wise?

[Rods]

did they not build a basketball arena in Vilnuis and are involved in the new stadium in kaunus

 

also I am sure they are also building a stadium in minsk

[Mon]

did they not build a basketball arena in Vilnuis and are involved in the new stadium in kaunus

 

also I am sure they are also building a stadium in minsk

 

 

Quite sure I read that all projects were still in the planning stage with none completed but maybe I'm wrong.

[SUTOL]

Have this mob ever actually built anything?

 

They aren't a construction company.

 

But they are involved with the management of A large Lithuanian construction company, their main role in the projects mentioned on their website is as a financier and management partner.

 

I read somewhere that they were involved (in the financing) of the Siemens Arena in Vilnius.

[Mon]

They aren't a construction company.

 

But they are involved with the management of A large Lithuanian construction company, their main role in the projects mentioned on their website is as a financier and management partner.

 

I read somewhere that they were involved (in the financing) of the Siemens Arena in Vilnius.

 

 

Of which none have got off the planning table.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

To put it another way then SUTOL, have any of the construction projects they finance or manage ever actually reached completion.

[SUTOL]

To put it another way then SUTOL, have any of the construction projects they finance or manage ever actually reached completion.

 

I think the Siemens Arena is open.

 

These projects seem to have been completed

 

How long have they been involved in construction?

[Coco]

The bigger question (which I have been harping on about for years!) remains - how do they plan to get the financing for all these building projects?

 

Including Tynecastle.

[K1874M]

Done a little research last night.... the Ripo stadium hasnt started, I think, been put back a couple of times from what I could see.

 

Couldnt find much else tho.

[john brownlee]

Have this mob ever actually built anything?

 

I know that they've got interests in mining, banking and a few other business interests, but what about major construction projects?

 

Their website only lists or mentions forthcoming projects, no completions.

 

Have they any track record in coming up with the goods, real estate wise?

 

 

yes

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

next question

 

away back and trawl the flairmisters site and worry about what your owner gets up to

[Guest JamboRobbo]

I think the Siemens Arena is open.

 

Is this UBIG's baby? According to their website, The incorporators and owners of Siemens Arena are the “Rubicon Group” of enterprises. No mention of UBIG.

 

And no mention on UBIG website as far as I can see either.

 

These projects seem to have been completed

 

Did UBIG manage or finance the construction of any of them?

[SUTOL]

Is this UBIG's baby? According to their website, The incorporators and owners of Siemens Arena are the ?Rubicon Group? of enterprises. No mention of UBIG.

 

And no mention on UBIG website as far as I can see either.

 

As I said, I read it somewhere, possibly a previous version of KB, there was a link to an article. I was surprised to find no mention of it on the UBIG site at the time though.

 

Maybe Kislas or another Lithuanian member can shine more light on the situation.

 

 

Did UBIG manage or finance the construction of any of them?

 

The company that built them (Pramprojektas) is a UBIG company.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

As I said, I read it somewhere, possibly a previous version of KB, there was a link to an article. I was surprised to find no mention of it on the UBIG site at the time though.

 

Maybe Kislas or another Lithuanian member can shine more light on the situation.

 

I think UBIG own 10% of it, but can't see mention anywhere.

 

The company that built them (Pramprojektas) is a UBIG company.

 

sounds like they may have actually completed a project then.....a bit of encouragment.

[jkato]

As I said, I read it somewhere, possibly a previous version of KB, there was a link to an article. I was surprised to find no mention of it on the UBIG site at the time though.

 

Maybe Kislas or another Lithuanian member can shine more light on the situation.

 

 

 

 

The company that built them (Pramprojektas) is a UBIG company.

 

According to the UBIG site:

 

UAB Ūkio banko investicinė grupė (ŪBIG) participates in the management of one of the biggest and most experienced engineering consulting companies in Lithuania ? the joint stock company Pramprojektas.

 

Firstly they are "involved" and not fully owned (not that I can make out) and secondly they are a consultancy company and not a construction firm.

 

The same page also states that they turned over a mere 2.5 million Euros in 2006.

[SUTOL]

According to the UBIG site:

 

UAB Ūkio banko investicinė grupė (ŪBIG) participates in the management of one of the biggest and most experienced engineering consulting companies in Lithuania ? the joint stock company Pramprojektas.

 

Firstly they are "involved" and not fully owned (not that I can make out) and secondly they are a consultancy company and not a construction firm.

 

The same page also states that they turned over a mere 2.5 million Euros in 2006.

 

I never said they were fully owned.

 

I never said they were a construction firm.

 

UBIG aren't a construction firm, but you are asking what building have they built.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

According to the UBIG site:

 

UAB Ūkio banko investicinė grupė (ŪBIG) participates in the management of one of the biggest and most experienced engineering consulting companies in Lithuania — the joint stock company Pramprojektas.

 

Firstly they are "involved" and not fully owned (not that I can make out) and secondly they are a consultancy company and not a construction firm.

 

The same page also states that they turned over a mere 2.5 million Euros in 2006.

 

Interesting. I wonder if UBIG themselves have ever actually completed a project where they were the main people in charge (i.e. like they are at Tynie).

[SUTOL]

Interesting. I wonder if UBIG themselves have ever actually completed a project where they were the main people in charge (i.e. like they are at Tynie).

 

UBIG are the client at Tynie not the builder.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

UBIG are the client at Tynie not the builder.

 

So UBIG aren't in charge? UBIG aren't providing the management and finances?

 

I think whats been called into question is whether any similar projects UBIG run have ever reached completion, as opposed to whether or not a building company can actually build a building given the right time and money.....

[SUTOL]

Have this mob ever actually built anything?

 

I think whats been called into question is whether any similar projects UBIG run have ever reached completion, as opposed to whether or not a building company can actually build a building given the right money.....

 

 

So UBIG aren't in charge? UBIG aren't providing the management and finances?

 

Does the client not usually pay for the construction etc?

[Guest JamboRobbo]

 

Well, you can be obtuse and take the question literally, or you can read between the lines and see what the person is asking.

 

I presumed UBIG knew what they are doing when it comes to building stadiums etc. as I had been lead to believe they had done this sort of thing before, and had successful projects behind them.

 

It would now seem perhaps this isn't the case, and that is a concern IMO.

 

Does the client not usually pay for the construction etc?

 

Not if they can get away with it.

[Heartbeat]

Have this mob ever actually built anything?I know that they've got interests in mining, banking and a few other business interests, but what about major construction projects?

 

Their website only lists or mentions forthcoming projects, no completions.

 

Have they any track record in coming up with the goods, real estate wise?

 

Have the Royal Bank of Scotland ever built anything (to use as an example)

 

While they are one of the worlds biggest companies now i think you will find they will appoint a project management team who will appoint a contractor and the RBS would be the client/financer of the project without actually building it. Not too hard to understand and i would imagine UBIG are the same but dont own any diggers or shovels.

[jkato]

Well, you can be obtuse and take the question literally, or you can read between the lines and see what the person is asking.

 

I presumed UBIG knew what they are doing when it comes to building stadiums etc. as I had been lead to believe they had done this sort of thing before, and had successful projects behind them.

 

It would now seem perhaps this isn't the case, and that is a concern IMO.

 

That was my very point.

 

There are 4 stadium development ventures on the UBIG site. Tynecastle, Vilnius, Minsk and Kaunas, all are currently in the planning stage and as far as I see it, a brick hasn't been laid in any of these projects.

 

I would feel a lot more comfortable if there were some actual case-studies of successful projects and not just artists impressions.

 

It's one thing partly overseeing the construction of a chemical plant for a 3rd party, but UBIG are currently"all-in" at Tynecastle to the tune of ?51M +

[Guest JamboRobbo]

That was my very point.

 

There are 4 stadium development ventures on the UBIG site. Tynecastle, Vilnius, Minsk and Kaunas, all are currently in the planning stage and as far as I see it, a brick hasn't been laid in any of these projects.

 

I would feel a lot more comfortable if there were some actual case-studies of successful projects and not just artists impressions.

 

It's one thing partly overseeing the construction of a chemical plant for a 3rd party, but UBIG are currently"all-in" at Tynecastle to the tune of ?51M +

 

As would I.

 

I thought your point was clear enough.

[SUTOL]

Well, you can be obtuse and take the question literally, or you can read between the lines and see what the person is asking.

 

I did point out to the OP that UBIG were not a construction firm, but they had an interest in a company involved in the construction industry, and provided a link the that companies website, showing major projects they had been previously involved in. But jkato said they are not a builders, just a consultants, which is what UBIG basically are too.

[SUTOL]

It's one thing partly overseeing the construction of a chemical plant for a 3rd party, but UBIG are currently"all-in" at Tynecastle to the tune of ?51M +

 

Everyone has to start somewhere, if they have not been involved in major construction project in the past, then they can't show any they have completed.

 

If other group companies have been involved in major projects in the past, you aren't counting them because they were for 3rd parties

 

At Tynecastle, UBIG are funding and managing the construction for themselves (HMFC) At both Minsk and Vilnius they appear to be partners (funding) for the government/state.

[Coco]

Everyone has to start somewhere, if they have not been involved in major construction project in the past, then they can't show any they have completed.

 

If other group companies have been involved in major projects in the past, you aren't counting them because they were for 3rd parties

 

At Tynecastle, UBIG are funding and managing the construction for themselves (HMFC) At both Minsk and Vilnius they appear to be partners (funding) for the government/state.

 

Are they?

 

Where are they getting the funding from? Hearts can't fund the development. Ukio Bankas are too small. Do UBIG have the cash spare? Or where do they expect to borrow it from at this point in the credit crunch?

[jkato]

Everyone has to start somewhere, if they have not been involved in major construction project in the past, then they can't show any they have completed.

 

If other group companies have been involved in major projects in the past, you aren't counting them because they were for 3rd parties

 

At Tynecastle, UBIG are funding and managing the construction for themselves (HMFC) At both Minsk and Vilnius they appear to be partners (funding) for the government/state.

 

I wholeheartedly agree, and we are on the same wavelength and I'm not nit-picking your replies for counter-arguments :-)

 

It is a worry to me that UBIG's first foray into the stadium construction sector might be Tynecastle. As you rightly mentioned, everyone has to start somewhere, but on the other hand, companies also learn from their mistakes. How many stadium construction projects over-run? Whether it be budget or time-scaling? Companies with vast experience screw-up. I would sit more comfortably if other projects were at least under-way rather than us being the first.

[Paolo]

I wholeheartedly agree, and we are on the same wavelength and I'm not nit-picking your replies for counter-arguments :-)

 

It is a worry to me that UBIG's first foray into the stadium construction sector might be Tynecastle. As you rightly mentioned, everyone has to start somewhere, but on the other hand, companies also learn from their mistakes. How many stadium construction projects over-run? Whether it be budget or time-scaling? Companies with vast experience screw-up. I would sit more comfortably if other projects were at least under-way rather than us being the first.

 

 

It could we worse, the Government could be in charge of building it - then it would be years late and millons over budget.

[Mon]

The previous planned developments on the UBIG website as we agree have never got off the planning table and no bricks have been laid. Maybe they never intended to build any of them in the first place but from the outside it looks as if they are serious developers. For a relatively small outlay their public personna seems bigger than they actually are - just look at their profits - small time and not completed any of their building projects.

 

Smoke and mirrors is the phrase that comes to mind.

 

When it comes to funding I'm sure I read in the paper that the cost of building the stadium is in the form of Hearts taking a loan. That will be Romanov's bank then. Just how much are the interest payments to the bank going to be in the future if this ever comes to fruition. Frightening is the word that comes to mind. We aren't exactly dealing with pros who have done this all before. It was all very fishy how it took over 2 years to produce a planning application and from what's come out in the paper they didn't exactly cover all angles before putting the plans in regardless of any spin.

[Sheriff Fatman]

It was all very fishy how it took over 2 years to produce a planning application and from what's come out in the paper they didn't exactly cover all angles before putting the plans in regardless of any spin.

 

I take it you have never produced a planning application? It's not like you can produce one of a shelf, it takes a very long time. As to the pish in the papers, a couple of numpties expressing stupid complaints isn't Hearts not covering all the angles.

[Coco]

The previous planned developments on the UBIG website as we agree have never got off the planning table and no bricks have been laid. Maybe they never intended to build any of them in the first place but from the outside it looks as if they are serious developers. For a relatively small outlay their public personna seems bigger than they actually are - just look at their profits - small time and not completed any of their building projects.

 

Smoke and mirrors is the phrase that comes to mind.

 

When it comes to funding I'm sure I read in the paper that the cost of building the stadium is in the form of Hearts taking a loan. That will be Romanov's bank then. Just how much are the interest payments to the bank going to be in the future if this ever comes to fruition. Frightening is the word that comes to mind. We aren't exactly dealing with pros who have done this all before. It was all very fishy how it took over 2 years to produce a planning application and from what's come out in the paper they didn't exactly cover all angles before putting the plans in regardless of any spin.

 

Ukio Bankas had total loans outstanding of ?470m as of the end of 2007.

 

Their current exposure to Hearts is way out of line with any sort of banking prudential lending - and to increase the concentration with a ?51m loan to a speculative building project such as Tynecastle would be ludicrous. But perhaps they are managed in a similar fashion as Hearts ...

[Mon]

Ukio Bankas had total loans outstanding of ?470m as of the end of 2007.

 

Their current exposure to Hearts is way out of line with any sort of banking prudential lending - and to increase the concentration with a ?51m loan to a speculative building project such as Tynecastle would be ludicrous. But perhaps they are managed in a similar fashion as Hearts ...

 

 

Did a search to where I read about the loan and found this quote from Lopez:

 

""Fifty-one million pounds is a big sum, but we already have funding in place for that from mainly UBIG, and this is not a problem for us," Lopez said. "Of course, the vision for this club is to be self-sufficient and self-funding in the future - that's why we are investing in facilities and the playing squad, so the team can succeed on its own and not depend on the funder all the time.

 

"Because of this there are parties interested in participating in this project and financing it, and we are speaking with them as well and that is a possibility. But we have already funding in place and that is not a problem.

 

"Any development cannot be gifted. This club has a very good business plan for this development ...

 

"It's not a debt on nothing or just a hole in the books of the company. It's an investment and you need to get the money from somewhere to do that. It will be a loan yes - not a debt, a loan."

 

 

 

So how is UBIG going to afford the funding and how are Hearts going to afford the 'loan' ahem 'debt'.

[Paolo]

Did a search to where I read about the loan and found this quote from Lopez:

 

""Fifty-one million pounds is a big sum, but we already have funding in place for that from mainly UBIG, and this is not a problem for us," Lopez said. "Of course, the vision for this club is to be self-sufficient and self-funding in the future - that's why we are investing in facilities and the playing squad, so the team can succeed on its own and not depend on the funder all the time.

 

"Because of this there are parties interested in participating in this project and financing it, and we are speaking with them as well and that is a possibility. But we have already funding in place and that is not a problem.

 

"Any development cannot be gifted. This club has a very good business plan for this development ...

 

"It's not a debt on nothing or just a hole in the books of the company. It's an investment and you need to get the money from somewhere to do that. It will be a loan yes - not a debt, a loan."

 

 

 

So how is UBIG going to afford the funding and how are Hearts going to afford the 'loan' ahem 'debt'.

 

That is why they will not rule out Stadium sponsorship, which may mean the stadium will be branded the '[insert Company Name] Tynecastle Park Stadium'

[Coco]

That is why they will not rule out Stadium sponsorship, which may mean the stadium will be branded the '[insert Company Name] Tynecastle Park Stadium'

 

How much do you think that they will get for that?

[kevmacd]

Lopez:

 

"We would like to see that (the debt be eliminated] in 15 years, maybe 20," said Lopez as Hearts submitted their planning proposal for the ?51m project to rebuild their 122-year-old home on Thursday. "It also depends, of course, how successful we are on the pitch in that time."

 

"We are not aiming to be owned by banks," insisted Lopez. "We are doing this (rebuilding the stand] to make the club more financially viable and independent in the longer-term.

 

"You need to bear in mind that this development, one is the stand and one is the building in front. With the building in front we will have partners so that debt won't be ?51m. It will also help bring extra revenue to the club. The stand will enhance economical opportunities.

 

"We have done our numbers and the revenue will be generated to serve the long term and drive investment to the squad. It should be able, over a period of time, to write off the debt we have at the moment, not increase."

 

In backing up Lopez's theory, the stand itself will cost ?30m; Hearts hope a significant chunk of the remaining ?21m will be supplied from external companies who wish to utilise the commercial space which will sit on McLeod Street.

[Boaby Ewing]

Coco, take it you've had a look at Ukio's 2007 results as well?

 

They seem to have a relationship with Rait Financial Trust - who are specialised in financing commercial real estate (they received a subordinated loan, 10 yr, interest 8.45 percent in Dec 2007 from Taberna - googled Taberna, pulled up Rait).

 

That loan's been included in the Bank's Tier 2 capital.

 

"On 7 December 2007 the Bank signed an agreement with Ireland company Taberna Europe DCO II P.L.C.,

according to which a ten year subordinated loan for EUR?000 27,000 was provided to the Bank by the

subscription of fixed-floating rate subordinated notes. The loan was received on the same date. The annual

interest rate was fixed for the first 5-year period at the rate of 8.45%.

 

Bank of Lithuania by order No 183 dated 19 December 2007 gave permission to include the subordinated loan tothe Bank?s Tier 2 capital."

[Boaby Ewing]

They also have a syndicated loan facility agreement for 48 million euros from November 2007.

 

Main arrangers: HSH Nordbank and Bayerische Landesbank, then about 20 other participants.

 

Matures in one year.

 

Obviously neither of these would appear to be for the development of Tynecastle.

[Boaby Ewing]

Edit to include the figure in bold

 

Coco, take it you've had a look at Ukio's 2007 results as well?

 

They seem to have a relationship with Rait Financial Trust - who are specialised in financing commercial real estate (they received a 27 million euro subordinated loan, 10 yr, interest 8.45 percent in Dec 2007 from Taberna - googled Taberna, pulled up Rait).

 

That loan's been included in the Bank's Tier 2 capital.

 

"On 7 December 2007 the Bank signed an agreement with Ireland company Taberna Europe DCO II P.L.C.,

according to which a ten year subordinated loan for EUR?000 27,000 was provided to the Bank by the

subscription of fixed-floating rate subordinated notes. The loan was received on the same date. The annual

interest rate was fixed for the first 5-year period at the rate of 8.45%.

 

Bank of Lithuania by order No 183 dated 19 December 2007 gave permission to include the subordinated loan tothe Bank?s Tier 2 capital."

[Ryan Gosling]

Page 71 -

 

http://www.vilnius.lt/doc/MIPIM06_www.pdf

[Coco]

Edit to include the figure in bold

 

That looks like capital supporting Ukio's current asset book, not funding available for the likes of Tynecastle.

 

In addition, I wonder how many Irish property companies are about to go under ...

[Dirk Diggler]

So the project in Minsk is under construction and they were involved with the Siemens arena.

 

All good.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

So the project in Minsk is under construction

 

is it?

[Dirk Diggler]

is it?

 

Ah. Just caught a quick look first time round then it crashed.

 

It will be though.

 

 

[Boaby Ewing]

That looks like capital supporting Ukio's current asset book, not funding available for the likes of Tynecastle.

 

In addition, I wonder how many Irish property companies are about to go under ...

 

 

Yeah I know - I said under my second post that neither of the loans looked to be for Tynecastle, but I should have made that clearer - but they do seem to have access to some funding (albeit at inflated rates).

 

I'm still pretty skeptical about the stadium development (or even whether it's the right thing to do), I was just trying to provide a couple of examples of recent funding agreements Ukio's had.

[Jammy T]

Are they?

 

Where are they getting the funding from? Hearts can't fund the development. Ukio Bankas are too small. Do UBIG have the cash spare? Or where do they expect to borrow it from at this point in the credit crunch?

 

Precisely

 

This isnt actually UBIGs or Vlads fault. A risky com prop development will struggle to get financing at present IMO.

 

Even if their intentions are good I'd wager the earliest we will see a new stand is 2013.

 

If people are reliant upon giving Vlad time until a new stand is in place dont hold your breath.

 

Construction costs will go up until the Olympics are done and dusted too

 

Its practically the worst time you could chose to finance and construct a major com prop development.

[Mon]

Precisely

 

This isnt actually UBIGs or Vlads fault. A risky com prop development will struggle to get financing at present IMO.

 

Even if their intentions are good I'd wager the earliest we will see a new stand is 2013.

 

If people are reliant upon giving Vlad time until a new stand is in place dont hold your breath.

 

Construction costs will go up until the Olympics are done and dusted too

 

Its practically the worst time you could chose to finance and construct a major com prop development.

 

 

And to pay top dollar for a property in St Andrew Square and a property in Castle Street.

[SUTOL]

Page 71 -

 

http://www.vilnius.lt/doc/MIPIM06_www.pdf

 

That's the one, with the bit about the Siemens Arena in it!

 

 

 

The previous planned developments on the UBIG website as we agree have never got off the planning table and no bricks have been laid. Maybe they never intended to build any of them in the first place but from the outside it looks as if they are serious developers. For a relatively small outlay their public personna seems bigger than they actually are - just look at their profits - small time and not completed any of their building projects.

 

Smoke and mirrors is the phrase that comes to mind.

 

http://www.priorbank.by/e/news/biz/?news=37199:// So they've convinced the press and the Belarus government, http://www.ubig.lt/index.php/projektai/real_estate/vilnius_baltic_centre/130 and have got the Lithuanian Union of Architects on side too, just to, ?

[SUTOL]

And to pay top dollar for a property in St Andrew Square and a property in Castle Street.

 

 

I believe UBIG payed market price for the St Andrews Square and West Register Street properties.

 

I don't know what arrangements Ukio Bankas have for their property on Castle Street. Do they own the building or are they leasing it?

[jkato]

Precisely

 

This isnt actually UBIGs or Vlads fault. A risky com prop development will struggle to get financing at present IMO.

 

Even if their intentions are good I'd wager the earliest we will see a new stand is 2013.

 

If people are reliant upon giving Vlad time until a new stand is in place dont hold your breath.

 

Construction costs will go up until the Olympics are done and dusted too

 

Its practically the worst time you could chose to finance and construct a major com prop development.

 

Taking the construction costs, the initial ?51M quote was in issued in July/August 2007. Given that we are looking to start building some 2 years after the initial quote/feasibility study was undertaken, how much will costs have risen since this time? It's not as if we're talking about buying things on the cheap. Raw materials/energy etc can't be procured at under market value. There is a high demand for them and we'll probably be forced to pay top dollar.

 

Lopez talks-up clearing the debt in 15 years. That's all well and good when the costs were ?51M. Will the commercial income generated escalate at the same pace as the construction costs?

[SUTOL]

Taking the construction costs, the initial ?51M quote was in issued in July/August 2007.

 

Were the figures quoted based on future costs?