Old Firm Sectarian Nonsense

[ANT]

Oh get a grip. I'm no PC pusher but I'm pretty sure we'll get along fine if some of our fans stop singing about fenian blood. Which other songs we sing do you think will get banned?

I Did not mention " Fenian blood " You did. I Dislike the add ons, But dont wont to sit in a Libary. If uefa start telling people, What the can and cant sing, Where will it end ? I Just think the pc brigade have gone to far.

[speedbump]

Have you ever heard Flower of Scotland? I'm sure it contains the words, 'these days are gone now, and in the past they must remain'.

 

Does the Sash call for auld enmities to be left in the past in favour of moving forward?

 

Plus, I've never heard FoS sung at a club game in Scotland though if it has happened I'd be interested in hearing about it and who it offended.

 

The sash is a harmless folk song. Can some one please tell me what is offensive about these lyrics.

 

Sure I'm an Ulster Orangeman

And from Erin's Isle I came

To see my lads go gravlin

Of honor and of fame.

And to tell them of my forefathers

Who fought in days of yore

All on the twelfth day of July

In the sash my father wore.

 

Chorus

Sure it's old, but it is beautiful

And the colors they are fine

It was worn at Derry, Aughrim,

Enniskillen, and the Boyne.

Sure my father wore it when a youth

In the bygone days of yore,

And it's on the twelfth I love to wear

The sash my father wore.

 

So here I am in Glasgow town

To find them girls to see

And I'm hoping good old orange Ulster

That you all will welcome me.

A true blue blade has just arrived

From the dear old Ulster shore

All on the 12th day of July

In the sash my father wore.

 

Chorus

 

Oh, when I'm going to leave you all

Oh, good luck to you I'll say

As I cross the raging sea, my boys,

Surely the orange flute I'll play.

And returning to my native town

To old Belfast once more

To be welcomed by those Orangemen

In the sash my father wore.

[Guest]

The sash is a harmless folk song. Can some one please tell me what is offensive about these lyrics.

 

Sure I'm an Ulster Orangeman

And from Erin's Isle I came

To see my lads go gravlin

Of honor and of fame.

And to tell them of my forefathers

Who fought in days of yore

All on the twelfth day of July

In the sash my father wore.

 

Chorus

Sure it's old, but it is beautiful

And the colors they are fine

It was worn at Derry, Aughrim,

Enniskillen, and the Boyne.

Sure my father wore it when a youth

In the bygone days of yore,

And it's on the twelfth I love to wear

The sash my father wore.

 

So here I am in Glasgow town

To find them girls to see

And I'm hoping good old orange Ulster

That you all will welcome me.

A true blue blade has just arrived

From the dear old Ulster shore

All on the 12th day of July

In the sash my father wore.

 

Chorus

 

Oh, when I'm going to leave you all

Oh, good luck to you I'll say

As I cross the raging sea, my boys,

Surely the orange flute I'll play.

And returning to my native town

To old Belfast once more

To be welcomed by those Orangemen

In the sash my father wore.

 

All together now...could you go a chicken supper bobby sands

[DETTY29]

The sash is a harmless folk song. Can some one please tell me what is offensive about these lyrics.

 

Sure I'm an Ulster Orangeman

And from Erin's Isle I came

To see my lads go gravlin

Of honor and of fame.

And to tell them of my forefathers

Who fought in days of yore

All on the twelfth day of July

In the sash my father wore.

 

Chorus

Sure it's old, but it is beautiful

And the colors they are fine

It was worn at Derry, Aughrim,

Enniskillen, and the Boyne.

Sure my father wore it when a youth

In the bygone days of yore,

And it's on the twelfth I love to wear

The sash my father wore.

 

So here I am in Glasgow town

To find them girls to see

And I'm hoping good old orange Ulster

That you all will welcome me.

A true blue blade has just arrived

From the dear old Ulster shore

All on the 12th day of July

In the sash my father wore.

 

Chorus

 

Oh, when I'm going to leave you all

Oh, good luck to you I'll say

As I cross the raging sea, my boys,

Surely the orange flute I'll play.

And returning to my native town

To old Belfast once more

To be welcomed by those Orangemen

In the sash my father wore.

 

 

You are indeed correct Speedbump.

 

I'm sure along similar lines why Celtic can deem their songs non sectarion too. So what is acceptable and non offensive to the goose, should be for the gander too.

[Rods]

The sash is a harmless folk song. Can some one please tell me what is offensive about these lyrics.

 

Sure I'm an Ulster Orangeman

And from Erin's Isle I came

To see my lads go gravlin

Of honor and of fame.

And to tell them of my forefathers

Who fought in days of yore

All on the twelfth day of July

In the sash my father wore.

 

Chorus

Sure it's old, but it is beautiful

And the colors they are fine

It was worn at Derry, Aughrim,

Enniskillen, and the Boyne.

Sure my father wore it when a youth

In the bygone days of yore,

And it's on the twelfth I love to wear

The sash my father wore.

 

So here I am in Glasgow town

To find them girls to see

And I'm hoping good old orange Ulster

That you all will welcome me.

A true blue blade has just arrived

From the dear old Ulster shore

All on the 12th day of July

In the sash my father wore.

 

Chorus

 

Oh, when I'm going to leave you all

Oh, good luck to you I'll say

As I cross the raging sea, my boys,

Surely the orange flute I'll play.

And returning to my native town

To old Belfast once more

To be welcomed by those Orangemen

In the sash my father wore.

 

This is what I have been saying all along

[Chris Benoit]

This is what I have been saying all along

 

 

Nobody disagreed the issue was with the Rangers fans adding FTP to it which then makes it sectarian and bigoted

[4marsbars]

The sash is a harmless folk song. Can some one please tell me what is offensive about these lyrics.

 

The argument that The Sash is "just a folk song" is only valid if you swallow the idea that the Orange Order is a non-sectarian institution.

 

Going back to the OP, I support his stance and it is high time that people made such complaints, the slight problem being that the same complaints could sometimes be made about an element of our own support.

[Sub4TiddlerMurray]

Can't help but feel this idea of "reporting" other fans is going to come back and bite us because let be honest the SPL / SFA love nothing more than lamping us with fines (in the first instance, I'm sure a points deduction could follow). Just as I feel the victims will get their comeuppance when they are investigated for their "political "ditties.

 

With regard to the songs debate:-

 

The sash chorus is not a sectarian song, the schemey add ons make it offensive (note I say chorus as that's all that's ever sung I presume they don't know the rest of the words !!).

 

The fields of athenry is not a sectarian song again the schemey add ons make it offensive

 

The billy boys is a historical Glasgow gang song originating from Bridgeton wth the lyrics relating to a rival gang. Can be quite uplifting at times tho' !!

 

Sometimes feel that a lack of education (in society not Kickback !!) results in this continuing debate which has been going on for as long as I can remember.

 

"never underestimate the power of denial"

 

to say that The Sash and Billy Boys is not sectarian is staggering.

[Groot]

Some middle class student who doesn't attend Hearts games, celebrating a sad drugged up wrestler double murderer, however ironic said middle class student thinks they are, has no place on a football message board.

 

Do you agree?

 

Middle class student? That's the funniest thing I've read on here in ages!!!

 

Doesn't attend games, ah the fallback on the desperately dim unable to come up witha decent retort

 

FWIW I'm with PJ1, until we get our own house in order we shouldn't be pointing the flaws with other people (I'm not condoning the behaviour but it does some across as a bit Celtic-ish complaining about other teams while we have elements of our support who can be just as bad)

[speedbump]

"never underestimate the power of denial"

 

to say that The Sash and Billy Boys is not sectarian is staggering.

 

The sash isn't sectarian and that is a fact.

[Chris Benoit]

The sash isn't sectarian and that is a fact.

 

It's not I agree but the add ons are and until people stop singing them the song shouldn't be sung at the football although to be honest I fail to see why it should be sung in the first place as it certainly has no relevance to Scottish football in any way, shape or form

[The White Cockade]

also a fact that only a complete throbber would sing The Sash at a football match as it has SFA to do with football

its also a fact that the reason it is sung is sectarian

Celtic and Rangers are the scum of the earth

I only wish that a small element of our support was not just as bad and imo we should put our own house

in order first before worrying about the roasters through in Glasgow

[southside1874]

It's not I agree but the add ons are and until people stop singing them the song shouldn't be sung at the football although to be honest I fail to see why it should be sung in the first place as it certainly has no relevance to Scottish football in any way, shape or form

 

And singing that you don't like the pope is not sectarian either if you go by your earlier posts Chris.........

[southside1874]

also a fact that only a complete throbber would sing The Sash at a football match as it has SFA to do with football

its also a fact that the reason it is sung is sectarian

Celtic and Rangers are the scum of the earth

I only wish that a small element of our support was not just as bad and imo we should put our own house

in order first before worrying about the roasters through in Glasgow

 

This is my take on things. If a complete tool wants to sing these things to antagonise the rival fans in a sectarian manner. Shouldn't the powers that be just lift these guys and stop them from going to football games. If they want to use football as a platform for their nonsense then its up to the clubs to police this, if they can't then shut them down.........simples.

 

Hibs banned tricolours from Easter Road for years and IMO this helped to nearly put an end to this nonsense in Edinburgh.

[Chris Benoit]

And singing that you don't like the pope is not sectarian either if you go by your earlier posts Chris.........

 

 

Care to show me where I said that?

[speedbump]

This is my take on things. If a complete tool wants to sing these things to antagonise the rival fans in a sectarian manner. Shouldn't the powers that be just lift these guys and stop them from going to football games. If they want to use football as a platform for their nonsense then its up to the clubs to police this, if they can't then shut them down.........simples.

 

Hibs banned tricolours from Easter Road for years and IMO this helped to nearly put an end to this nonsense in Edinburgh.

 

Absolute nonsense, there is always a couple in there end usually with a picture of the cowardly rebel on it.

[Jam Tarts 1874]

The sash is a harmless folk song. Can some one please tell me what is offensive about these lyrics.

 

Sure I'm an Ulster Orangeman

And from Erin's Isle I came

To see my lads go gravlin

Of honor and of fame.

And to tell them of my forefathers

Who fought in days of yore

All on the twelfth day of July

In the sash my father wore.

 

Chorus

Sure it's old, but it is beautiful

And the colors they are fine

It was worn at Derry, Aughrim,

Enniskillen, and the Boyne.

Sure my father wore it when a youth

In the bygone days of yore,

And it's on the twelfth I love to wear

The sash my father wore.

 

So here I am in Glasgow town

To find them girls to see

And I'm hoping good old orange Ulster

That you all will welcome me.

A true blue blade has just arrived

From the dear old Ulster shore

All on the 12th day of July

In the sash my father wore.

 

Chorus

 

Oh, when I'm going to leave you all

Oh, good luck to you I'll say

As I cross the raging sea, my boys,

Surely the orange flute I'll play.

And returning to my native town

To old Belfast once more

To be welcomed by those Orangemen

In the sash my father wore.

 

But what has it got to do with Rangers, Hearts, Scotland or football? Why do people in Scotland who are not Irish want to sing this?

[southside1874]

Absolute nonsense, there is always a couple in there end usually with a picture of the cowardly rebel on it.

 

I didn't say it was banned now but it was a while ago and for a few seasons

[southside1874]

Care to show me where I said that?

 

Having an issue with the practices and beliefs of a religion is not bigotry.

[The Real Maroonblood]

Quote from Hootsmon btw..

 

Now that Osama Bin Laden is dead and Rangers fanz are banned in Europe, has there ever been a safer time to travel ?

 

[speedbump]

But what has it got to do with Rangers, Hearts, Scotland or football? Why do people in Scotland who are not Irish want to sing this?

 

Not a lot but that isn't really the debate is it. I consider myself an Ulster-Scot so I'll continue to sing and play it.

[Chris Benoit]

Having an issue with the practices and beliefs of a religion is not bigotry.

 

 

And how exactly does that tie in with hating the Pope?

 

It doesn't so how about you stop making yourself look stupid and not try and catch me out because it isn't going to happen.

[Jam Tarts 1874]

Not a lot but that isn't really the debate is it. I consider myself an Ulster-Scot so I'll continue to sing and play it.

 

Why is the singing of The Sash by Rangers and Hearts fans not part of the debate?

 

What purpose is served by singing a song that relates to events that took place over 300 years ago in a different country?

 

If you want to continue your "war" against Irish Catholics, why can't you GTF to Northern Ireland and leave us in Scotland out of your stupidity?

 

Like many of the "loyalists" around here you are full of hot air. You use the relative anonymity of these forums and football terraces to spout your hatred. I guarantee that you (and others) would not have the bottle to step off the ferry in Belfast and start proclaiming your neanderthal beliefs in public there.

[JamboX2]

Why is the singing of The Sash by Rangers and Hearts fans not part of the debate?

 

What purpose is served by singing a song that relates to events that took place over 300 years ago in a different country?

 

If you want to continue your "war" against Irish Catholics, why can't you GTF to Northern Ireland and leave us in Scotland out of your stupidity?

 

Like many of the "loyalists" around here you are full of hot air. You use the relative anonymity of these forums and football terraces to spout your hatred. I guarantee that you (and others) would not have the bottle to step off the ferry in Belfast and start proclaiming your neanderthal beliefs in public there.

 

I agree with this a lot. Let's face it the mainstream of northern Irish society is beyond this nonsense as well. They lived through the horrors of those days so why glorify the division that cost thousands of innocent lives by signing such songs? I've got mates from Northern Ireland and who have family there, they all have a great deal of disdain towards this bigoted nonsense in Scottish football.

 

I'm not getting at anyone here and you're of course entitled to all your own views. That is a free society and the privilege and responsibility of that. But signing these songs is backward, divisive beyond football and brings shame on ANY club caught in the act, be it Clyde, Falkirk, Rangers, who ever. We should at Hearts be above it. As should Hibs, can have the union jacks and Irish tricolour if you want, I don't view them as secterian but more historical affinity, as both clubs do have Irish roots etc.

 

There are plenty of chants and songs to yell that arent sectarian. We're from the Capital, You'll never get a job, giro day, the Europe song etc etc.

[The Real Maroonblood]

Why is the singing of The Sash by Rangers and Hearts fans not part of the debate?

 

What purpose is served by singing a song that relates to events that took place over 300 years ago in a different country?

 

If you want to continue your "war" against Irish Catholics, why can't you GTF to Northern Ireland and leave us in Scotland out of your stupidity?

 

Like many of the "loyalists" around here you are full of hot air. You use the relative anonymity of these forums and football terraces to spout your hatred. I guarantee that you (and others) would not have the bottle to step off the ferry in Belfast and start proclaiming your neanderthal beliefs in public there.

Top post.

[speedbump]

Why is the singing of The Sash by Rangers and Hearts fans not part of the debate?

 

What purpose is served by singing a song that relates to events that took place over 300 years ago in a different country?

 

If you want to continue your "war" against Irish Catholics, why can't you GTF to Northern Ireland and leave us in Scotland out of your stupidity?

 

Like many of the "loyalists" around here you are full of hot air. You use the relative anonymity of these forums and football terraces to spout your hatred. I guarantee that you (and others) would not have the bottle to step off the ferry in Belfast and start proclaiming your neanderthal beliefs in public there.

 

I know I have never walked Belfast Jesus wept, the forum of the internet is allowing you to guess what I have and haven't done my life.

[12XU]

Mini huns are up in arms - yet again

[The Real Maroonblood]

Mini huns are up in arms - yet again

They just can't help themselves.

[Chris Benoit]

They just can't help themselves.

 

 

Just can't get enough

[southside1874]

And how exactly does that tie in with hating the Pope?

 

It doesn't so how about you stop making yourself look stupid and not try and catch me out because it isn't going to happen.

 

Sorry mate, I just thought folk hated him because he was the head of a religion. silly me

[southside1874]

Why is the singing of The Sash by Rangers and Hearts fans not part of the debate?

 

What purpose is served by singing a song that relates to events that took place over 300 years ago in a different country?

 

If you want to continue your "war" against Irish Catholics, why can't you GTF to Northern Ireland and leave us in Scotland out of your stupidity?

 

Like many of the "loyalists" around here you are full of hot air. You use the relative anonymity of these forums and football terraces to spout your hatred. I guarantee that you (and others) would not have the bottle to step off the ferry in Belfast and start proclaiming your neanderthal beliefs in public there.

 

There was a reason why folk in the UK didn't want the Irish immigrants starting their own football teams and for the life of me I just can't work out what it was

[GD_JAMBO]

rite b4 i post this i just want to say i hate rangers and celtic i hate everything they stand for rite onto my next point im not gonna lie i have sung hello hello we r the gorgie boys im only 16 but even i know that this problem started years ago this problem will almost never go away but we culd alter the words 2 our version and sing hibee blood cause this song gets the atmosphere going

[Eckauskas]

Utterly pointless letter and a waste of time.

 

Neil Doncaster won't read it.

 

Even if he did, he wouldn't do anything about it.

[Radioactive Mince]

Some middle class student who doesn't attend Hearts games, celebrating a sad drugged up wrestler double murderer, however ironic said middle class student thinks they are, has no place on a football message board.

 

Do you agree?

So far off the mark here, Boaby, it's just not funny - I'm cringing for you, mate.

 

I'm seriously not bothered what anybody sings at football games any more. Maybe that makes me a dick and/or an ostrich, but I'm comfortable with the notion that most OF fans and quite a few of our own are complete and utter spazlords.

 

Maybe I've got this wrong, but I'm fairly sure UEFA have no jurisdiction within national leagues - where it is solely the national governing body's or the league administration's problem.

 

Seeing as a fair percentage of our beloved SFA will sing rebel/loyalist songs when they get pished, I'm not sure the issue will ever be eradicated - I'm cool with that. I'm a Hearts supporter.

[ADAM]

rite b4 i post this i just want to say i hate rangers and celtic i hate everything they stand for rite onto my next point im not gonna lie i have sung hello hello we r the gorgie boys im only 16 but even i know that this problem started years ago this problem will almost never go away but we culd alter the words 2 our version and sing hibee blood cause this song gets the atmosphere going

 

.....and breathe, phew!

[Nookie Bear]

Read this back and tell me it's not nonsense.

 

So people not tolerating bigotry are as bad as murderers?

 

 

You're wasting your time with this lot.

 

I cannot believe that, at a time when we should be gleefully a[pplauding UEFA getting stuck into rangers, there are now a number of Hearts fans peddling the same garbage.

 

"it's not sectarian" - nitpicking pesh.

 

"it's been around for ever, get used to it" - jeez!

 

FFS, nobody is saying you can't have views but why broadcast them at Tynecastle?? Away and have your sad little marches but it's just getting boring now to have this still going on.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Absolute nonsense, there is always a couple in there end usually with a picture of the cowardly rebel on it.

You've never heard of Harry Swan and his attempt to ban the tricolour in the 1950s then?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The argument that The Sash is "just a folk song" is only valid if you swallow the idea that the Orange Order is a non-sectarian institution.

 

Going back to the OP, I support his stance and it is high time that people made such complaints, the slight problem being that the same complaints could sometimes be made about an element of our own support.

 

The problem with that argument is that you can argue all religious organisations by their very nature are sectarian, to a greater or lesser degree.

[Nookie Bear]

Have you ever heard Flower of Scotland? I'm sure it contains the words, 'these days are gone now, and in the past they must remain'.

 

Does the Sash call for auld enmities to be left in the past in favour of moving forward?

 

Plus, I've never heard FoS sung at a club game in Scotland though if it has happened I'd be interested in hearing about it and who it offended.

 

I've heard it sung ironically: by Inverness (or Aberdeen?) fans at Tynecastle when our team was full of Liffs.

 

Hearts fans have also sung it at Rangers in the past when they were light on Scottish players.

[4marsbars]

The problem with that argument is that you can argue all religious organisations by their very nature are sectarian, to a greater or lesser degree.

 

You can argue that, but I don't. It's perfectly possible to differentiate between religion and sectarianism. We could go on all day about where exactly to draw the line but I'm not going to write an essay. As far as I'm concerned, orangemen and orange marches in Northern Ireland and Scotland do cross the line between religion and sectarianism. The Sash is not "just a folk song".

 

An organisation that expresses itself by quasi-militaristic marching through the streets, expressing none of the humility that is meant to characterise the followers of the religion it claims to follow, insisting on its "right" to march through RC areas, with all the swagger, the beating drums, and so on, has crossed the line.

 

Religions that define themselves by positively proclaiming something (like love of one's neighbour) and encourage their followers to live in a certain manner are generally not "sectarian".

 

"Sects" that define themselves by opposition to, or difference from, another religion, are generally sectarian in my opinion.

[speedbump]

You've never heard of Harry Swan and his attempt to ban the tricolour in the 1950s then?

 

I've been at Edinburgh derbies since the mid 80's and there have always been there. And yes I have heard of Harry Swan, former Hibs chairman who tried to move the club away from their Irish roots.

[jambo_til_i_die]

Dear Neil,

 

I was present as a supporter of Hearts FC at Ibrox Stadium this afternoon and was yet again appalled at the sectarian singing of Glasgow Rangers fans.

 

I would like to register that at one point in the game a large minority of the fans in the Broomloan Stand sang The Sash and at least 100 of them added the offensive and sectarian chorus, ?**** the Pope?. There was no sign of disapprobation from surrounding fans, no arrests or ejections; in other words no change.

 

In solidarity with Dundee United fans, I would like this complaint to be acknowledged and dealt with, with a view to disciplinary action taken against Rangers FC.

 

This is in addition to the disgraceful behaviour of Celtic fans at Inverness last Wednesday when offensive singing pervaded the match and at least 165 seats were destroyed due to wanton vandalism.

 

If I do not receive a reply from you, I will take this as another example of the Scottish football establishment sticking its head in the sand and will forward this email to the Scottish press and to UEFA who seem to be taking the scourge of racist bigotry peddled by the fans of our Old Firm seriously.

 

I look forward to hearing from you soon.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Ross Meikle

 

Glasgow Hearts Supporters Club

 

Like our support at Celtic Park during our 4-0 horsing then?

 

Reeks of double standards.

[MacDonald Jardine]

You've never heard of Harry Swan and his attempt to ban the tricolour in the 1950s then?

 

He was President of the SFA when they tried to make Celtic take down their tricolour.

I'm not aware of any ban on them being taken by fans at Easter Road.

They were banned for a while when Tom Hart was Chairman I think.

[Alba gu Brath]

As we're all European now, why not just fly the EU flag? This is sure to be a peacemaker. As to the Ulster-Scot who feels he has to celebrate his 'roots' at Tynie (just like Celtic with their roots) maybe we should all celebrate our roots. Mine are mostly Irish/Scots though apparently there was a German and a Sasannach some generations ago. My pal had a Polish granny too.

 

Hell. Tynie will look like the United Nations - all of us marching with multiple flags.

 

Lets just stick to the fitba.

 

PS - As a matter of interest, I wonder whose side the 'Ulster Scots' would take in the current sectarian violence in Egypt. Christian or Muslim? And, does it give the Hunnz another chance to say 'see it isnae just us that are backward...'.

[speedbump]

As we're all European now, why not just fly the EU flag? This is sure to be a peacemaker. As to the Ulster-Scot who feels he has to celebrate his 'roots' at Tynie (just like Celtic with their roots) maybe we should all celebrate our roots. Mine are mostly Irish/Scots though apparently there was a German and a Sasannach some generations ago. My pal had a Polish granny too.

 

Hell. Tynie will look like the United Nations - all of us marching with multiple flags.

 

Lets just stick to the fitba.

 

PS - As a matter of interest, I wonder whose side the 'Ulster Scots' would take in the current sectarian violence in Egypt. Christian or Muslim? And, does it give the Hunnz another chance to say 'see it isnae just us that are backward...'.

 

Egypt? Who gives a flying ****!