too many players

[Footballfirst]

This seems to contrast with what Serjei is inferring in the article cited by jambo19 in post#48 above.

?1m is coppers if we produce established/saleable players but it is a lot of money if we don't.

 

I guess Serjei is doing a bit of creative accounting by including the money received from the SFA in his outgoings. I know that Hearts pay Heriot Watt around ?250K p.a as their contribution towards the running and maintenance of the facilities. ((also used by the 1st team). I don't know how much they receive from the SFA but I suspect it could be more than that.

 

HYDC has spent more on transfers/compensation for academy players than Hearts have in the past couple of seasons.

[Coco]

I don't think that it is clear that the Academy set-up is improving the quality of the players brought into the first team - beyond the level set by the club in the years before the Academy.

 

To take one example - the club were broke when Robbo/Mackay/Bowman broke through - and Levein was signed as a young player. There has been nothing like that quality since the Academy was set up.

 

Or more recently - there was the Gordon/Berra/Wallace/Driver period. Again nothing like as good as that group since the Academy.

[JamboAl]

See, every time a thread about the academy pops up - which this one isn't incidentally - some silly billies/sausages deem to have a go at it and say it isn't producing.

 

Lee Wallace, Andy Driver, Eggert Jonsson, Craig Thomson, Jamie MacDonald, David Templeton (signed and trained by the academy), Jason Thomson, Gary Glen, Arvy Novikovas (as Temps), Calum Elliot, Scott Robinson and Ryan McGowan having all played varying roles this season in getting us to third would disagree.

 

All are still under 23 (other than Jamie), atleast 2 are worth millions as it is and a couple more could be on the way.

 

That JJ hasn't given debuts to anyone since his arrival is due in part to so many getting debuts a bit early. Scott Robinson, had he not been thrown in too early would have been debuted, same goes for Arvy.

 

When you look at that list of young players, can you really blame JJ for not blooding more and who would they have been anyway? The likes of Mulrooney and Stewart are simply not considered good enough and that's why they don't appear on the list.

 

Next season I've no doubt we'll see a couple of debuts (Denis and maybe Holt seem obvious - maybe Walker and Ogelby?) and an increased role for Robinson and maybe Arvy too depending on who stays/goes and on Arvy's mental development.

 

The academy is producing good players and many have made the step up or, in some cases, are in the middle of doing so (bench appearances and the likes). The sad fact is that it's very very hard to tell who is and isn't ready going from 19s and training into first team football, especially without just dipping their toes in from the bench.

 

Only in Scotland would we be so backward as to not see that the gap between youth and senior football has been what has plagued our game for years (and not just since the reserve league went, although that was another huge step backwards.) On the whole, Scottish youth teams punch above their weight up until u20. We produce a lot of cracking 15 and 16 yearold kids. We simply don't know what to do when they get to late teens. We expect them to be ready to play fulltime football and that they will be the finished article. The pressures of a small league where every point is scrapped for and very little football is allowed to be played takes over and talented laddies either fall by the way-side or become heffers.

 

Will it change? Hearts seem to be the only ones making any noise about it and for that I'm happy.

 

So are you saying our coaches are deficient in that they don't know how to progress lads when they reach 16 or are you saying they were unsuitable in the first place (deficient scouts?)?

I am sorry I am a silly billy for having a different opinion from you.

The fact is, as Coco says, it is not clear the academy is producing beyond what we got before it started. I am querying if we are getting value for the additional money invested.

FWIW I don't think Gary Mac would have made his debut in today's set-up: he would have had to play for the U17s, then the U19s, then a season on loan or bounce games, then the 1st team or freed.

[davemclaren]

So are you saying our coaches are deficient in that they don't know how to progress lads when they reach 16 or are you saying they were unsuitable in the first place (deficient scouts?)?

I am sorry I am a silly billy for having a different opinion from you.

The fact is, as Coco says, it is not clear the academy is producing beyond what we got before it started. I am querying if we are getting value for the additional money invested.

FWIW I don't think Gary Mac would have made his debut in today's set-up: he would have had to play for the U17s, then the U19s, then a season on loan or bounce games, then the 1st team or freed.

 

 

The world has changed since the 80s. Perhaps we wouldn't get the players we are getting without the academy. Gary Mackay and Dave Bowman were thrown into the first team at 16 because we were garbage, bottom of the league and they were better than what we had.

[TheBigO]

So are you saying our coaches are deficient in that they don't know how to progress lads when they reach 16 or are you saying they were unsuitable in the first place (deficient scouts?)?

I am sorry I am a silly billy for having a different opinion from you.

The fact is, as Coco says, it is not clear the academy is producing beyond what we got before it started. I am querying if we are getting value for the additional money invested.

FWIW I don't think Gary Mac would have made his debut in today's set-up: he would have had to play for the U17s, then the U19s, then a season on loan or bounce games, then the 1st team or freed.

 

No, I'm saying that as a nation, we struggle to push players from excellent youths into anything more than solid pros. The problem lies somewhere between youth and 1st team (and just beyond). That's nationwide and goes back 15-20 years.

 

As for Gary Mac, don't agree. Craig T has played plenty for example. Gary broke through into a very experienced team

[Spellczech]

Remember when they ditched the hit the bar etc competitions and first began to invite kids to play at half-time on matchdays. The first few times you saw some real talent on these mini-pitches but it eventually just became about giving any young kid a chance to kick a ball on the pitch. If coaches are just former players then how can THEY learn themselves as all they do is trot out the same stuff that they were taught 20 years ago...Perhaps we should do a swap deal with some coaches - Send Lockie to Holland and get some Dutch dude in for a season?

[JamboAl]

No, I'm saying that as a nation, we struggle to push players from excellent youths into anything more than solid pros. The problem lies somewhere between youth and 1st team (and just beyond). That's nationwide and goes back 15-20 years.

 

As for Gary Mac, don't agree. Craig T has played plenty for example. Gary broke through into a very experienced team

 

I'm not talking about a nation - not all of the nation's teams have academies. I'm talking about HMFC and Riccarton and yes we seem to be struggling somewhere between youth and 1st team. Isn't it the idea of an academy to ensure we have players suitably prepared to slot into the 1st team when required If we don't, we are signing the wrong players, they are not being coached properly or there is some other problem which needs to be addressed?

CT is coming along fine and he too is playing in a very experienced team, not one containing 2 other youths (JR and Bowman) who were only 17 while Gary himself I believe was just 16.

I happen to believe if a player is good enough he is old enough and can be introduced with care. Far too many of Scotland's next brightest stars at Riccarton have vegetated and died. We've brought youths from Australia, Slovenia, England, Iceland, USA etc and most of them are now gone. Why?

[TheBigO]

I'm not talking about a nation - not all of the nation's teams have academies. I'm talking about HMFC and Riccarton and yes we seem to be struggling somewhere between youth and 1st team. Isn't it the idea of an academy to ensure we have players suitably prepared to slot into the 1st team when required If we don't, we are signing the wrong players, they are not being coached properly or there is some other problem which needs to be addressed?

CT is coming along fine and he too is playing in a very experienced team, not one containing 2 other youths (JR and Bowman) who were only 17 while Gary himself I believe was just 16.

I happen to believe if a player is good enough he is old enough and can be introduced with care. Far too many of Scotland's next brightest stars at Riccarton have vegetated and died. We've brought youths from Australia, Slovenia, England, Iceland, USA etc and most of them are now gone. Why?

 

The idea of an academy is indeed to supply players for the first team. Unfortunately at the age of 18, very few players are ready for this. There is nothing to bridge the gap and players go on loan or go stale - that's the only choices for players who aren't quite ready. Only exceptional cases such as Craig T (and hopefully Robinson next season) can jump that gap. This isn't the fault of HMFC.

 

Not many teams the length and bredth of Britain produce as many of their own 1st team players as we do. Certainly not top flight teams in Scotland, so I repeat, we aren't doing too badly.

 

Times have changed and harping back to the early 80s is massively irrelevant and naive. Gary broke into a shit team but one which quickly came together due to good experienced pros. We're getting there now, but haven't had a leader to talk of since Elvis and Hartley left.

 

I happen to think there is a problem with coaching but I don't think it's at the academy where they seem to prepare the laddies just fine. What we have out there is all there is to choose from and you can only polish turds so much (extreme use of "turds" but what i'm saying is that if laddie X has a ceiling on his talent, the academy will only take him to that ceiling). Within each group, 2 or 3 will have a good chance of making it and maybe only one will, and it's very rare in any youth team at any club for it to be any different year in, year out.

 

I believe the group about to hit the u19s will be the first to have been solely at the academy (Jamie Walker et al) and that shows how much the academy is actually in its infancy. These things take time.

 

I think it was around year 2000 Germany decided to revamp how it did its youth football and its only in the last 2 years they've seen the benefit with Ozil and Muller etc. Sweden revamped recently and will produce players in years to come I've no doubt. Iceland invested a lot of money and are starting to see talent come through too (relevant to their size). Uruguay changed the way it works a few years back and are now starting to look great. It takes time.

 

And the reason I talk nationwide is because a lot of the problems facing Hearts are caused simply by being in Scotland. Both physically (in not having that reserve league/B team option; 12 team league with split) and mentally in that the psyche here is still wrong from age 5 and we only now seem to realise that wee laddies need wee fitbaws and wee pitches and non-competitive games. Again these "new" ways of doing things will only start to show their benefits in a number of years' time. Hearts seem to be pretty cutting edge in our country in terms of youth development - that only 4 teams have academies shows that.

 

I think people don't realise how tough a business this is and just how talented you need to be to make it. Anyone who knows a few junior players will know them to be great players. Imagine the level you need to be to play SLP, even for a lesser team? To produce the type of players some on this thread seem to want the academy to each year just ain't doable. We'll produce pros and occasionally we'll produce a couple that'll make the club a good whack of money. Hopefully the next generation of King, Kane, Patterson will be our Scholes, Neville, Giggs, and a group of homegrown lads can really challenge. Great judgement, top coaching and personal dedication is needed, but with kids a huge slice of it is luck (remember Robbie Foy was gonna be our next big Scottish star? Alex Notman? Mark Fotheringham? How's Steven Husband doing at Blackpool??)

[Footballfirst]

Craig Thomson, Arvydas Novikovas, Gordon Smith, Rocky Visconte, Dylan McGowan, Dean Lyness, Scott Robinson, Jason Holt, Jamie Walker, Rob Ogleby, Denis Prychynenko, Fraser Mullen, Kevin McHattie, Dale O'Hara, Jack Hamilton, Scott Campbell, Ryan Carnwath, Billy King and Dale Carrick.

 

Q. What have they all got in common? (apart from having played for the U19s or U17s in the last two seasons)

 

A. All of them have played for their countries at U16/U17/U19/U21

 

Outside the OF we have the best record of recruiting / developing international standard talent at youth level.

 

These guys are rated among the best players in Scotland or their respective countries at age 16/17/18/19. If these guys can't make it as professional footballer, then it is either down to the coaching or management choices beyond the academy, or down to an individual's own make up not having the character / attitude / work ethic to make it. (maybe lifestyle choices? - Drink? Diet?)

[JamboAl]

The idea of an academy is indeed to supply players for the first team. Unfortunately at the age of 18, very few players are ready for this. There is nothing to bridge the gap and players go on loan or go stale - that's the only choices for players who aren't quite ready. Only exceptional cases such as Craig T (and hopefully Robinson next season) can jump that gap. This isn't the fault of HMFC.

 

I am not suggesting it is anyone's (or no one's) fault. I am asking if the academy is VFM when there appears to be a gap between youth and 1st team.

 

Not many teams the length and bredth of Britain produce as many of their own 1st team players as we do. Certainly not top flight teams in Scotland, so I repeat, we aren't doing too badly.

 

Times have changed and harping back to the early 80s is massively irrelevant and naive. Gary broke into a shit team but one which quickly came together due to good experienced pros. We're getting there now, but haven't had a leader to talk of since Elvis and Hartley left.

 

 

A good player is a good player whether it is the 60s, 80s or 90s.

 

I happen to think there is a problem with coaching but I don't think it's at the academy where they seem to prepare the laddies just fine. What we have out there is all there is to choose from and you can only polish turds so much (extreme use of "turds" but what i'm saying is that if laddie X has a ceiling on his talent, the academy will only take him to that ceiling). Within each group, 2 or 3 will have a good chance of making it and maybe only one will, and it's very rare in any youth team at any club for it to be any different year in, year out.

 

So really it's the general standard of player that's deficient. If we're taking all these players to their ceiling (but no further) are we signing the right ones or is it worthwhile spending so much on an academy when history suggests it will be futile? Should we not just spend the ?1m on 3 freedom of contract players who we know can cope with the SPL eg Sutton, Davidson, Bryson, Taouil,etc

 

I believe the group about to hit the u19s will be the first to have been solely at the academy (Jamie Walker et al) and that shows how much the academy is actually in its infancy. These things take time.

 

I think it was around year 2000 Germany decided to revamp how it did its youth football and its only in the last 2 years they've seen the benefit with Ozil and Muller etc. Sweden revamped recently and will produce players in years to come I've no doubt. Iceland invested a lot of money and are starting to see talent come through too (relevant to their size). Uruguay changed the way it works a few years back and are now starting to look great. It takes time.

 

And the reason I talk nationwide is because a lot of the problems facing Hearts are caused simply by being in Scotland. Both physically (in not having that reserve league/B team option; 12 team league with split) and mentally in that the psyche here is still wrong from age 5 and we only now seem to realise that wee laddies need wee fitbaws and wee pitches and non-competitive games. Again these "new" ways of doing things will only start to show their benefits in a number of years' time. Hearts seem to be pretty cutting edge in our country in terms of youth development - that only 4 teams have academies shows that.

 

 

I think people don't realise how tough a business this is and just how talented you need to be to make it. Anyone who knows a few junior players will know them to be great players. Imagine the level you need to be to play SLP, even for a lesser team? To produce the type of players some on this thread seem to want the academy to each year just ain't doable. We'll produce pros and occasionally we'll produce a couple that'll make the club a good whack of money. Hopefully the next generation of King, Kane, Patterson will be our Scholes, Neville, Giggs, and a group of homegrown lads can really challenge. Great judgement, top coaching and personal dedication is needed, but with kids a huge slice of it is luck (remember Robbie Foy was gonna be our next big Scottish star? Alex Notman? Mark Fotheringham? How's Steven Husband doing at Blackpool??)

 

 

I hope you're right.

[Rod01]

This is interesting stuff and unfortunately my wee question probably seems a bit off topic to the greater debate that is going on but.....

 

When the lad Mulrooney played for us at Tannadice he looked different class and played with a sense of freedom that displayed an extreme talent, was MOTM standard and certainly raised my hopes that a gem did exist within our academy ranks.

Now I couldnt even tell you where the lad is. That is so disappointing for me as I seriously thought the lad was outstanding. Can anybody shed some light on his progress as I haven't seen him anywhere near the first team yet on that display he should be a regular on the bench at least with the odd appearance.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Rod..

[Stanley_]

This is interesting stuff and unfortunately my wee question probably seems a bit off topic to the greater debate that is going on but.....

 

When the lad Mulrooney played for us at Tannadice he looked different class and played with a sense of freedom that displayed an extreme talent, was MOTM standard and certainly raised my hopes that a gem did exist within our academy ranks.

Now I couldnt even tell you where the lad is. That is so disappointing for me as I seriously thought the lad was outstanding. Can anybody shed some light on his progress as I haven't seen him anywhere near the first team yet on that display he should be a regular on the bench at least with the odd appearance.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Rod..

 

He went on loan to Brechin then Clyde (3rd division) this season. He's 21. Pretty difficult to see how he could ever make it for the first team now.

[Rod01]

He went on loan to Brechin then Clyde (3rd division) this season. He's 21. Pretty difficult to see how he could ever make it for the first team now.

That is really disappointing.

Maybe the Tannadice game was a one off, but he was outstanding that day and I do not remember him getting another game after that :-(

 

Are there any other posters who know this guys form more than me, a one game review?

 

Thanks Stanley_ for your update, have you seen much more of him at all?

 

Rod.

[Stanley_]

That is really disappointing.

Maybe the Tannadice game was a one off, but he was outstanding that day and I do not remember him getting another game after that :-(

 

Are there any other posters who know this guys form more than me, a one game review?

 

Thanks Stanley_ for your update, have you seen much more of him at all?

 

Rod.

 

I've only seen him in the first team. I'm sure guys like Footballfirst will know more.

 

There's a few players like him who are early twenties and who probably weren't helped by the large squad size. I'm not sure what the general opinion of Mulrooney was when he was in the U19s. I can't remember him being touted on here as one of the best prospects at that point though.

 

I was checking and he played six times for the first team back in 2009/10. My link

[Gabriel]

This is interesting stuff and unfortunately my wee question probably seems a bit off topic to the greater debate that is going on but.....

 

When the lad Mulrooney played for us at Tannadice he looked different class and played with a sense of freedom that displayed an extreme talent, was MOTM standard and certainly raised my hopes that a gem did exist within our academy ranks.

Now I couldnt even tell you where the lad is. That is so disappointing for me as I seriously thought the lad was outstanding. Can anybody shed some light on his progress as I haven't seen him anywhere near the first team yet on that display he should be a regular on the bench at least with the odd appearance.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Rod..

 

Remember the game and echo your sentiments. However, he was playing in a team that was abject, so we have to make some allowance. Csaba was forever telling the media he needed experienced players to propel us up the league and JJ is of the same ilk. If the objective is to finish third and qualify for Europe, there will be little opportunity for youth and inexperience save for cameo roles. Securing third earlier might have afforded JJ the luxury of seeing more youngsters in action but I doubt it. We'd have been accused of playing weakened teams, especially against the OF.

[Footballfirst]

"Spoony's" recent football has been limited to bounce games. I last saw him play in the game at New Bayview that Hearts won 5-1. He got up and down the park pretty well but didn't contribute much to the game. His experience echoes one of the points I have tried to make about how youngsters are introduced into the team. I don't think sitting on the bench week after week does anything for these guys, e.g. Scott Robinson in the last couple of weeks. In the little cameos Scott has played recently, I think he showed enough to merit a starting place. If/when he does get a start then he should be given assurances by JJ that he will be given a run of say 6 games without fear of being dropped should he make a mistake or have one bad game.

[TheBigO]

"Spoony's" recent football has been limited to bounce games. I last saw him play in the game at New Bayview that Hearts won 5-1. He got up and down the park pretty well but didn't contribute much to the game. His experience echoes one of the points I have tried to make about how youngsters are introduced into the team. I don't think sitting on the bench week after week does anything for these guys, e.g. Scott Robinson in the last couple of weeks. In the little cameos Scott has played recently, I think he showed enough to merit a starting place. If/when he does get a start then he should be given assurances by JJ that he will be given a run of say 6 games without fear of being dropped should he make a mistake or have one bad game.

 

FF, you know yourself, Spoony isn't nearly as good a player as Scott.

 

Mulrooney only played cos we had something like 14 or 15 guys out! Fact is, sad as it is, he doesn't really have enough in his locker. If you could give his drive and engine to a player with more talent, we'd be in. Or is that what they did with Robinson and Holt!!

[TheBigO]

 

So really it's the general standard of player that's deficient. If we're taking all these players to their ceiling (but no further) are we signing the right ones or is it worthwhile spending so much on an academy when history suggests it will be futile? Should we not just spend the ?1m on 3 freedom of contract players who we know can cope with the SPL eg Sutton, Davidson, Bryson, Taouil,etc

 

In a way, yes, it is the general standard of the players. As I have said, of each u19 team, probably only 3 will have a massive chance of making it and only one to be a bit of a star. This is normal and has been the case in the last few years anyway. What the academy will be trying to do is raise that level.

 

Craig T will be worth more than ?1M soon enough. Temps could be said to be already. Driver is worth twice that and Lee more again. VR's money is well spent.

 

My real point about polishing poopie was that we weren't getting our hands on the talent early enough, or maybe weren't coaching it properly early enough. Now, our best prospects from what I've heard are all around the 17yo mark now and they're the first lot who've only ever seen the inside of the academy. Whether the whole process is working or not can only be judged on those laddies progress in 3 or so years' time.

[JamboAl]

"Spoony's" recent football has been limited to bounce games. I last saw him play in the game at New Bayview that Hearts won 5-1. He got up and down the park pretty well but didn't contribute much to the game. His experience echoes one of the points I have tried to make about how youngsters are introduced into the team. I don't think sitting on the bench week after week does anything for these guys, e.g. Scott Robinson in the last couple of weeks. In the little cameos Scott has played recently, I think he showed enough to merit a starting place. If/when he does get a start then he should be given assurances by JJ that he will be given a run of say 6 games without fear of being dropped should he make a mistake or have one bad game.

Spoony (whom I have never seen, incidentally) is a good example of players who seem to vegetate and die and if we're not careful Robinson might finish up as another. There is IMO a problem with us in getting youths to make the step up. Others have cited the national situation but that applies to all SPL clubs and yet at Hibs we have seen Calum Booth make the break through, Kenny McLean at St Liedoon, Ness at Rangers, Forrest at Celtic to name but a few. The worrying factor for me, unless I've got it all wrong, is that if Prychynenko, Robinson, Mulrooney etc are no better than some of the (individual) dross I watch in certain positions, we must have a long hard look at the academy. We must make it work better and give youth incentive and hunger. It must be soul destroying for the likes of Denis to think he is on the way up by getting a seat on the bench and then never be seen again. I appreciate he is now injured but doubt if he would have been used anyway as we try to clinch 3rd place. That being so, JJ has said he would not try out youth against the OF which only leaves Dundee Hibs. That game will be vital if it's the decider so youth would not get a game and if it's not the decider it will be a pointless exercise, little more than a bounce game.

[Drylaw Hearts]

All bigger clubs have problems getting youth players to make the step-up.

 

If a club is lucky it will get 2-3 through a season - maximum.

 

This season we may not have had any 'youth' players making their debuts (IIRC) but we've had Temps and Thomson cement their places as first team regulars, Jamie Mac has played more games and we've let 6 or 7 go on loan to make that step-up easier when they return. Assuming they return.

[JamboAl]

All bigger clubs have problems getting youth players to make the step-up.

 

If a club is lucky it will get 2-3 through a season - maximum.

 

This season we may not have had any 'youth' players making their debuts (IIRC) but we've had Temps and Thomson cement their places as first team regulars, Jamie Mac has played more games and we've let 6 or 7 go on loan to make that step-up easier when they return. Assuming they return.

 

I would be wary if I were a youth sent out on loan. How many come back better players and "make it"? This season some have hardly played in the team they were loaned out to eg Deland, Lyness.

[binocular]

Must admit I am surprised to see Jordan getting a contract. He has the ability but his mentality has to change, I did not see really too much of a change in the matches I saw, though obviously the coaches must see it in his everyday activity. Sad to see Jamie McCormack not get a new contract but obviously with Balatoni and Dylan McGowan ahead of them there could only be one CB given a new contract. Do you know how long each player has been given?

ive only seem mccormack on the hearts tv and to me he looked reliable andcould pick out some fine passes.you seem to have watched more than me.what is your opinion on him.as ive stated before i liked the look of him whenever i saw him.i would be pleased to hear what you think.

[bighusref]

ive only seem mccormack on the hearts tv and to me he looked reliable andcould pick out some fine passes.you seem to have watched more than me.what is your opinion on him.as ive stated before i liked the look of him whenever i saw him.i would be pleased to hear what you think.

 

McCormack, IMO.