too many players

[kamac1]

the under 19's have had a fantastic season as has the first team however there is also a reserve team squad, and an under 17's squad at tynecastle

 

Far too many players in total. I'd rather see quality than quantity in future seasons.

 

It's the first team that counts, there are too many players picking up a wage and contibuting very little, if anything at all.

 

Hopefully Jefferies can move on a lot of players this summer, there's about half a dozen in the first team squad and most of the reserve team squad, perhaps

 

then there will be scope for some of the younger players to break through into the first team.

 

Time for hearts to challenge for the league again, and be more competitive in the cups

[speedbump]

Reserve squad? Whoa there time traveller.

[kamac1]

there are still a squad of reserve players on the books most have been playing for other clubs this season

[speedbump]

There is about 6 or 7 players out on loan, hardly a squad. Do you write for the Daily Record or The Sun perchance?

[CavySlaveJambo]

`U-19 and U-17 come under youth development, U-19 play in their own league and U-17 play against their own level.

 

Every club needs there own youth development and that means having a squad at various levels as Youth.

 

ETA: I doubt the Youth Squads get much in the way of wages if that is what your problem is around the very large squads.

[rudi]

the under 19's have had a fantastic season as has the first team however there is also a reserve team squad, and an under 17's squad at tynecastle

 

Far too many players in total. I'd rather see quality than quantity in future seasons.

 

It's the first team that counts, there are too many players picking up a wage and contibuting very little, if anything at all.

 

Hopefully Jefferies can move on a lot of players this summer, there's about half a dozen in the first team squad and most of the reserve team squad, perhaps

 

then there will be scope for some of the younger players to break through into the first team.

 

Time for hearts to challenge for the league again, and be more competitive in the cups

Is there,who they then?

[andrew]

Is there,who they then?

 

Guys like Balogh, Jason T, Kucharski, Mole, Glen, Mulrooney and Stewart.

 

We've got way too many players that are too old for the 19's but aren't good enough for the 1st team.

[rudi]

Guys like Balogh, Jason T, Kucharski, Mole, Glen, Mulrooney and Stewart.

 

We've got way too many players that are too old for the 19's but aren't good enough for the 1st team.

Hardly think 7 players constitutes a squad but,like most teams,there are players who should and will be released.

 

Can I add Mrowiec to that list?

[Jambomullins]

Your all twats. The guy is making a valid point as we do have too many players picking up a wage for doing nothing. I too would like to see a smaller 1st team squad with an emphasis on quality.

[TheBigO]

Is there,who they then?

 

OP has a good point.

 

There are around 10 players at Riccarton each day with basically eff all to do. They've no chance of 1st team action so don't train with 1st team, too old for 19s so don't train with them. Even some of the lads who're out on loan, still train fulltime with Hearts as at part-time teams. Only the ones like Gowser when he was away trains with the 1sts.

 

What happens with most of these guys is they do a bit of a session then head home. Many don't have games at the weekend, so they basically have a job which involves a couple of hours running each day. Sound cooshie, but it ain't good for careers. They should have been moved on already for their own sake.

 

Brown, Delands, Park, Balatoni, Stewart, Mulrooney all spring to mind. Maybe even Danny Thomson could be chucked in there.

 

Then there's Kucharski and Mole who have no chance of playing 1st team but would be considered 1st team squad. The likes of Jason T and Obua are in the 1st team squad good and proper, like it or lump it (the actual 1st team could trim a bit, or replace some too, but that's a different thread).

 

We have a goalie too many too. So that's 10 I've mentioned, fairly or unfairly who fall into the surplus bracket.

 

I don't give a hoot about the financial waste - VR doesn't either - the problem is that it isn't good for the coaching staff having so many basically taking up space. We need to be (and I think now are) more ruthless when players finish at 19s level. The squad needs streamlined. There is a definite effect on morale having these players basically living in limbo kicking around Riccarton.

[jambo19]

When it comes to reserve players we have: Balogh, Ridgers, J Thomson, Kucharski, Balatoni, D.McGowan, R.McGowan, Park, Brown, Stewart, D.Thomson, Mulrooney, Smith, Mole, Glen. So i think he makes a point, we do have a lot of players who are too old for the 19s and obviously are fringe players. Cutting down is probably the right option but I would hang on to/loan out again Ridgers, Balatoni, both McGowans, Smith from that list.

 

Im not sure how many u19s will be too old for next seasons 19s though which will add players to that list.

 

Getting rid of the reserve league was a bad move and bad for some of the players development as I thought D.Thomson, Stewart, Balatoni and a few others could of been good players but now like someone mentioned theyre not training with the first team or the 19s and dont do much.

[SanliHearts]

Your all twats. The guy is making a valid point as we do have too many players picking up a wage for doing nothing. I too would like to see a smaller 1st team squad with an emphasis on quality.

 

Bang on!

[rudi]

Your all twats. The guy is making a valid point as we do have too many players picking up a wage for doing nothing. I too would like to see a smaller 1st team squad with an emphasis on quality.

Every one would love that at almost every team,thing is we are struggling right now because we have no one to fill in the blanks when one of our better players gets crocked,I don't think our squad is any bigger than anyone elses but other teams around us seem to be able to cope with a few injuries a bit better.

 

I agree that some players should be emptied,but what I will say is that some of them should never have been here in the first place.

[TheBigO]

When it comes to reserve players we have: Balogh, Ridgers, J Thomson, Kucharski, Balatoni, D.McGowan, R.McGowan, Park, Brown, Stewart, D.Thomson, Mulrooney, Smith, Mole, Glen. So i think he makes a point, we do have a lot of players who are too old for the 19s and obviously are fringe players. Cutting down is probably the right option but I would hang on to/loan out again Ridgers, Balatoni, both McGowans, Smith from that list.

 

Im not sure how many u19s will be too old for next seasons 19s though which will add players to that list.

Getting rid of the reserve league was a bad move and bad for some of the players development as I thought D.Thomson, Stewart, Balatoni and a few others could of been good players but now like someone mentioned theyre not training with the first team or the 19s and dont do much.

 

Spot on. Although even with a reserve league, our squad would be bloated.

 

Even if they don't bring back a reserve league, why not have u18 and 21s rather than u17 and 19s. Maybe the 21s can have two overage players too. That way, it gives guys another year or two to develop before basically being plunged into 1st team at the age of 18/19 (like Arvy was 18 but too old to play u19 last season) or basically fudding around in no-mans land.

 

Something has to change, but all the clubs other than Hearts seem to be dicking about arguing over league size and how many times they all get a cut of the Glesga Giants' pie.

[JamboAl]

the under 19's have had a fantastic season as has the first team however there is also a reserve team squad, and an under 17's squad at tynecastle

 

Far too many players in total. I'd rather see quality than quantity in future seasons.

 

It's the first team that counts, there are too many players picking up a wage and contibuting very little, if anything at all.

 

Hopefully Jefferies can move on a lot of players this summer, there's about half a dozen in the first team squad and most of the reserve team squad, perhaps

 

then there will be scope for some of the younger players to break through into the first team.

 

Time for hearts to challenge for the league again, and be more competitive in the cups

 

That's been my view for a long time. Too many players hanging around. A dressing room (and a club) needs to breathe and that has not happened for some years. Unless we're confident youngsters will make it by the time they are say 19, let's get rid. We will make mistakes with late developers but that's a chance we must take.

[JamboAberdeen]

Of goalkeeper issue, injury to one or two GK in the same time could easily happen like Arsenal, and you don't want to throw on untested youngster into that situation.

Therefore, every team needs at least 3 senior GK in a season, even if the 3rd goalie has no realistic hope of playing game.

And this season we didn't want Ridgers in this position, so kept JM and Baough while sending him on loan.

 

Personally current size of squad is normal, as most of them are still early 20s, or qualify as U21 players in old term.

Problem is more on quality rather than quantity, so replacing them by players who can compete for the first team, instead of just releasing is more important.

[jambo19]

Spot on. Although even with a reserve league, our squad would be bloated.

 

Even if they don't bring back a reserve league, why not have u18 and 21s rather than u17 and 19s. Maybe the 21s can have two overage players too. That way, it gives guys another year or two to develop before basically being plunged into 1st team at the age of 18/19 (like Arvy was 18 but too old to play u19 last season) or basically fudding around in no-mans land.

 

Something has to change, but all the clubs other than Hearts seem to be dicking about arguing over league size and how many times they all get a cut of the Glesga Giants' pie.

 

Does the German League not have an u23 league and and u19 league. But there again that might cost the OF too much and wont go ahead. Either way it is tougher for young players between 19 and 22/23 to break into the squad so they need to be playing in order to develop into good players. It will effect every club and Scotland will have less talented players coming through so if we want quality to come through we need to have some sort of league/b team to allow progression and development of young players, a u21s and u18 league could work but again its all about costs and the old firm

Thats why other European leagues can bring through better players imo or part of the reason (others like better coaching and competition).

[TheBigO]

Of goalkeeper issue, injury to one or two GK in the same time could easily happen like Arsenal, and you don't want to throw on untested youngster into that situation.

Therefore, every team needs at least 3 senior GK in a season, even if the 3rd goalie has no realistic hope of playing game.

And this season we didn't want Ridgers in this position, so kept JM and Baough while sending him on loan.

 

Personally current size of squad is normal, as most of them are still early 20s, or qualify as U21 players in old term.

Problem is more on quality rather than quantity, so replacing them by players who can compete for the first team, instead of just releasing is more important.

 

Got something like 60 players on the books mate - 'stoomany

[TheBigO]

Does the German League not have an u23 league and and u19 league. But there again that might cost the OF too much and wont go ahead. Either way it is tougher for young players between 19 and 22/23 to break into the squad so they need to be playing in order to develop into good players. It will effect every club and Scotland will have less talented players coming through so if we want quality to come through we need to have some sort of league/b team to allow progression and development of young players, a u21s and u18 league could work but again its all about costs and the old firm

Thats why other European leagues can bring through better players imo or part of the reason (others like better coaching and competition).

 

Aye - remember Csaba, slaver that he was, talking about that. In Germany, 22/23 isn't considered too old to break through. BUT they have a system in place to ensure players are developing until then.

 

In Scotland, and it's always been like this to an extent - you reach first team level at anything from 17-20 and there development seems to end as 1st team training and programing doesn't allow for it.

 

Something radical has to change. I know Campbel O was in favour of something like an u23 league and certainly wanted to look into how we tackle player progression so hopefully with his added clout these days, something will happen. No doubt a quango to choose members of a think-tank who'll feed into a system of committees

[Libertonian_II]

We do seem to have an over large squad of players. What makes it worse is that we have no replacement left back, centre forward or a decent right back.

[jambo19]

Aye - remember Csaba, slaver that he was, talking about that. In Germany, 22/23 isn't considered too old to break through. BUT they have a system in place to ensure players are developing until then.

 

In Scotland, and it's always been like this to an extent - you reach first team level at anything from 17-20 and there development seems to end as 1st team training and programing doesn't allow for it.

 

Something radical has to change. I know Campbel O was in favour of something like an u23 league and certainly wanted to look into how we tackle player progression so hopefully with his added clout these days, something will happen. No doubt a quango to choose members of a think-tank who'll feed into a system of committees

 

Yeah change is needed. I wonder if any of that was considered by Doncaster and co or whether it was basically on tv money and nothing else. Either way players in Scotland stop progressing like you say at an early age, and will probably get released from the clubs when they could turn out to be players. Hopefully we can loan out balatoni, smith, d mcgowan next season so they can become better players, but its hard for a centre back at that age to get into the first team and with no reserve team they will probably have to move on because of the squad size. On a side not with the german league, dortmund won the league with the youngest squad in the league I think so development of players there is surely working.

[Footballfirst]

We have Scott Robinson, Denis Prychynenko, Colin Hamilton, Jordan Morton and Rob Ogleby all with contracts for next season stepping up from the U19s. We therefore need to release 5 players to stand still in terms of numbers and I would recommend at least another 10 to go beyond that, assuming that there is again no Reserve league next season..

[Gabriel]

I'd much rather see us reduce the habit of loaning of players. I think players, such as Novikovas, could have had more meaningful game time at Hearts had they stayed. Had they been at the club, they might have been able to apply more pressure on those in the jerseys.

 

In general, I'm also quite worried about the long-term effects of finishing third with a team packed with solid pros. Sure, I'm happy to see us qualify for Europe, but I'm concerned that we'll lose some players in the summer and simply load up the squad with more of the same. We can't fill every position from within, granted, but do we really need players like Diamond or Taouil?

[jamboinglasgow]

We have Scott Robinson, Denis Prychynenko, Colin Hamilton, Jordan Morton and Rob Ogleby all with contracts for next season stepping up from the U19s. We therefore need to release 5 players to stand still in terms of numbers and I would recommend at least another 10 to go beyond that, assuming that there is again no Reserve league next season..

 

Must admit I am surprised to see Jordan getting a contract. He has the ability but his mentality has to change, I did not see really too much of a change in the matches I saw, though obviously the coaches must see it in his everyday activity. Sad to see Jamie McCormack not get a new contract but obviously with Balatoni and Dylan McGowan ahead of them there could only be one CB given a new contract. Do you know how long each player has been given?

[TheBigO]

I'd much rather see us reduce the habit of loaning of players. I think players, such as Novikovas, could have had more meaningful game time at Hearts had they stayed. Had they been at the club, they might have been able to apply more pressure on those in the jerseys.

 

In general, I'm also quite worried about the long-term effects of finishing third with a team packed with solid pros. Sure, I'm happy to see us qualify for Europe, but I'm concerned that we'll lose some players in the summer and simply load up the squad with more of the same. We can't fill every position from within, granted, but do we really need players like Diamond or Taouil?

 

I dont think Arvy was just a football decision as such. He's apparently really shy, or maybe that isn't the word, just quiet and quite hard to get wound up for a match etc. Maybe "wet behind the ears" is the term. I think the hope is that he'll go out on loan and it'll get a bit life into him - bit more life experience I suppose.

 

Hope it works cos the lad has unbelievable ability - best at the club. Only does it at training though and never with a smile!!!

[JamboAl]

I'd much rather see us reduce the habit of loaning of players. I think players, such as Novikovas, could have had more meaningful game time at Hearts had they stayed. Had they been at the club, they might have been able to apply more pressure on those in the jerseys.

 

In general, I'm also quite worried about the long-term effects of finishing third with a team packed with solid pros. Sure, I'm happy to see us qualify for Europe, but I'm concerned that we'll lose some players in the summer and simply load up the squad with more of the same. We can't fill every position from within, granted, but do we really need players like Diamond or Taouil?

 

I share your sentiment.

I don't know how much the academy has cost us over the last 4/5 years but if you look at the posts which tell JJ who he should/should not sign, then it has been a distinct failure,

After 5 years we have not produced a worthwhile striker, nor a creative MF, nor a dominating CD so we are forced to enter the transfer/Bosman market and that is what most fans want again this close season.

Our current manager has introduced nobody from the ranks in 16 months and now hints at Prychynenko and Walker as being possibles but both are injured. Holt, I understand, may get a shot. Brilliant.

Looking at yesterday's team

McDonald* - came through but not certainly not established.

Thomson - too small and defensively questionable

Johnsson* - been here for yonks and unconvincing in any position

Zal - signed from Kaunus

Pally - signed from Spain

Temps - signed from Stenny

Black - signed from ICT

Rudi - signed from God knows where

Stevo - signed from Ayr

Elliott - signed from PNE(?)

Of the 3 subs, all came through the ranks but Glen and McGowan are nowhere near 1st team choices leaving Driver who was signed prior to the start of the academy although to be fair he was developed through the academy.

So what is my problem?

Well we have these multitudes of players and numerous teams playing out of Riccarton and yet the academy has not produced one established player in its 5 year existence. Is that because we do not identify the right players. our scouting staff are duff, our coaching staff are deficient or our manager(s) refuse(s) to nurture youth in to the 1st team?

Discuss.

* signed pre-academy

[Footballfirst]

Must admit I am surprised to see Jordan getting a contract. He has the ability but his mentality has to change, I did not see really too much of a change in the matches I saw, though obviously the coaches must see it in his everyday activity. Sad to see Jamie McCormack not get a new contract but obviously with Balatoni and Dylan McGowan ahead of them there could only be one CB given a new contract. Do you know how long each player has been given?

I don't know what new contracts have been given, although I'm pretty sure that Rob was given a 2 year deal when he signed initially. Denis I believe has a year's option on his existing contract and that will be taken up. I suspect that the others will be on one year plus option deals, similar to those that I understand were given to Balatoni, Delands, D McGowan, D Thomson and Woods last season. I wouldn't be surprised if 3 or 4 of those were released.

[Gabriel]

[/b]

 

I share your sentiment.

I don't know how much the academy has cost us over the last 4/5 years but if you look at the posts which tell JJ who he should/should not sign, then it has been a distinct failure,

After 5 years we have not produced a worthwhile striker, nor a creative MF, nor a dominating CD so we are forced to enter the transfer/Bosman market and that is what most fans want again this close season.

Our current manager has introduced nobody from the ranks in 16 months and now hints at Prychynenko and Walker as being possibles but both are injured. Holt, I understand, may get a shot. Brilliant.

Looking at yesterday's team

McDonald* - came through but not certainly not established.

Thomson - too small and defensively questionable

Johnsson* - been here for yonks and unconvincing in any position

Zal - signed from Kaunus

Pally - signed from Spain

Temps - signed from Stenny

Black - signed from ICT

Rudi - signed from God knows where

Stevo - signed from Ayr

Elliott - signed from PNE(?)

Of the 3 subs, all came through the ranks but Glen and McGowan are nowhere near 1st team choices leaving Driver who was signed prior to the start of the academy although to be fair he was developed through the academy.

So what is my problem?

Well we have these multitudes of players and numerous teams playing out of Riccarton and yet the academy has not produced one established player in its 5 year existence. Is that because we do not identify the right players. our scouting staff are duff, our coaching staff are deficient or our manager(s) refuse(s) to nurture youth in to the 1st team?

Discuss.

* signed pre-academy

 

That's remarkably detailed. I just feel a little worried when I hear the logic for signing Diamond is that JJ thinks he is still young and he hopes he can make him a better player by partnering him with Webster. I'd have thought the same argument could be applied to most CBs currently at the club and with matching other players as well.

[bighusref]

[/b]

 

I share your sentiment.

I don't know how much the academy has cost us over the last 4/5 years but if you look at the posts which tell JJ who he should/should not sign, then it has been a distinct failure,

After 5 years we have not produced a worthwhile striker, nor a creative MF, nor a dominating CD so we are forced to enter the transfer/Bosman market and that is what most fans want again this close season.

Our current manager has introduced nobody from the ranks in 16 months and now hints at Prychynenko and Walker as being possibles but both are injured. Holt, I understand, may get a shot. Brilliant.

Looking at yesterday's team

McDonald* - came through but not certainly not established.

Thomson - too small and defensively questionable

Johnsson* - been here for yonks and unconvincing in any position

Zal - signed from Kaunus

Pally - signed from Spain

Temps - signed from Stenny

Black - signed from ICT

Rudi - signed from God knows where

Stevo - signed from Ayr

Elliott - signed from PNE(?)

Of the 3 subs, all came through the ranks but Glen and McGowan are nowhere near 1st team choices leaving Driver who was signed prior to the start of the academy although to be fair he was developed through the academy.

So what is my problem?

Well we have these multitudes of players and numerous teams playing out of Riccarton and yet the academy has not produced one established player in its 5 year existence. Is that because we do not identify the right players. our scouting staff are duff, our coaching staff are deficient or our manager(s) refuse(s) to nurture youth in to the 1st team?

Discuss.

* signed pre-academy

 

Appreciate my source is the ever impeccable Wikipedia, but, just to clarify, he is taller than Roberto Carlos, Philip Lahm, Denis Irwin, Cafu, Mauro Tassotti and Dani Alves. Oh, and by the way, I am gonna wager those are not the only ones, those are the only ones I checked (well, add in Maicon who is taller than him).

[Footballfirst]

Well we have these multitudes of players and numerous teams playing out of Riccarton and yet the academy has not produced one established player in its 5 year existence. Is that because we do not identify the right players. our scouting staff are duff, our coaching staff are deficient or our manager(s) refuse(s) to nurture youth in to the 1st team?

Discuss.

* signed pre-academy

A few points to consider:

The Academy opened at Riccarton on 31st May 2004 so your 5 years is wrong. Jonsson, Driver and Lee Wallace certainly came through the Academy. Temps also spent 2 years with the U19s, then the Reserves before making it. I agree that it is disappointing that there are a number on the fringe who haven't quite made it and one could argue that they should be released (if nothing else to open up opportunities for the next generation). I include Elliot, J Thomson, Glen, Mulrooney, and J Stewart among them.

 

How tall must a full back be? Consider Alves, Lahm and Carlos who ain't the tallest.

 

I don't think the coaching is at fault. Recruitment of the best talent however is difficult because John Murray has had virtually no money to spend to pay compensation to other teams e.g. Celtic paid ?100K for Tony Watt from Airdrie at age 16 and have given Dylan McGeouch (just signed from Rangers) a contract at ?3K a week at age 17.

 

There has certainly been a reluctance for successive managers to play and nurture youth players. e.g. JJ still hasn't given a debut to any youth player. The likes of SR, AN, PM, JS, RMcG, CT, GG all had their debuts under previous managers, but no-one gave them a sustained run in the team.

[JamboAl]

A few points to consider:

The Academy opened at Riccarton on 31st May 2004 so your 5 years is wrong. Jonsson, Driver and Lee Wallace certainly came through the Academy. Temps also spent 2 years with the U19s, then the Reserves before making it. I agree that it is disappointing that there are a number on the fringe who haven't quite made it and one could argue that they should be released (if nothing else to open up opportunities for the next generation). I include Elliot, J Thomson, Glen, Mulrooney, and J Stewart among them.

 

I bow to your superior knowledge re youths/academy and grant you Wallace and possibly Driver as worthwhile academy products. We should not forget however that we always managed pre-academy to bring through decent players (Gary McKay. JR, Berra, Gordon etc) and maybe I'm expecting too much but when you set up an academy you expect to improve the through flow of quality players which I don't think we've seen.

 

 

How tall must a full back be? Consider Alves, Lahm and Carlos who ain't the tallest.

 

My view is that a good tall FB is better than a good small FB but there is no hard and fast rule. In addition to CT not being tall I simply think his defensive qualities are questionable.

 

 

I don't think the coaching is at fault. Recruitment of the best talent however is difficult because John Murray has had virtually no money to spend to pay compensation to other teams e.g. Celtic paid ?100K for Tony Watt from Airdrie at age 16 and have given Dylan McGeouch (just signed from Rangers) a contract at ?3K a week at age 17.

 

I don't doubt money helps but when you look at other smaller clubs they can unearth decent talent that we are failing to do eg Hamilton (McCarthy and McArthur), Airdrie (Watt), Livingston (Dorrans, Snodgrass, Halliday), Aberdeen (Fyvie, Pawlett), Dundee Utd (Goodwillie) and even teams we have taken players from eg Stenny (2 Hamiltons and Temps) Dunfy (McHattie)etc etc

 

There has certainly been a reluctance for successive managers to play and nurture youth players. e.g. JJ still hasn't given a debut to any youth player. The likes of SR, AN, PM, JS, RMcG, CT, GG all had their debuts under previous managers, but no-one gave them a sustained run in the team.

 

I agree with that. Csaba would make 10 positional changes before he would introduce one youth but at least he gave debuts to Smith and Thomson.

Whether we like it or not we cannot afford to go on like this. If we have an academy we must utilise it to the full and bring in money from the sales of players we bring through. By not playing these lads they will not grow in stature and so will not be saleable assets. If the quality coming through is such that these lads are not fit for the job, in the medium term at least, we must seriously ask questions of the academy set-up and consider whether it is worth continuing to finance.

[Footballfirst]

Whether we like it or not we cannot afford to go on like this. If we have an academy we must utilise it to the full and bring in money from the sales of players we bring through. By not playing these lads they will not grow in stature and so will not be saleable assets. If the quality coming through is such that these lads are not fit for the job, in the medium term at least, we must seriously ask questions of the academy set-up and consider whether it is worth continuing to finance.

The odd thing that most people probably don't realise is that the academy in itself doesn't cost much to run as it is subsidised to a large extent by the SFA as part of of their youth development programme. Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Hibs are the recipients of the bulk of the funds available as they run fully fledged academies with dedicated facilities.

 

Good scouting is obviously important and every club at all levels is looking for talent at schools, boys clubs and other senior clubs. The SPL clubs recently entered into an agreement that clubs would be compensated at ?5k a year for any youth player transferred between clubs. e.g. if we wished to recruit a 14 year old from Hamilton who had been with them for 4 years it would cost us ?20K, which in the current climate is not available at Hearts. You have to be very lucky to find someone at 10 years old that you can develop all the way through to the first team. Most players don't show what they are likely to be capable of until 14 or 15. That is where the the competition for players is at its fiercest. Those clubs that can offer the best deals will get the best players and I'm afraid that Hearts are losing out at the moment.

 

Celtic it seems have money to burn at the moment. Their current U19 squad cost them ?700k to build. They regularly invite players over from Ireland, Australia and Eastern Europe for trials. Indeed, they are currently running a programme to identify talent in India. I know Hearts recently lost out on a potential striker from a local boys club to Celtic who had been on trial with us at U17. Why? .... because they could offer him a better deal.

 

On the positive sde, I do think that we have a great crop of technically good players coming through together who will be playing U19s next season. I can easily see 7 or 8 of them earning contracts. The challenge, in particular for Gary Locke, is to transform that potential into 4 or 5 players of true 1st team quality over the following 2 or 3 years ... and for JJ to show some belief in their ability by playing them not for 15 mins in a meaningless end of season game, but giving them starts in successive games without fear of being dropped should they make a mistake.

[RussAsia]

The only way to truely improve the progression of players is to include 'B' teams in the lower leagues.. To do this either introduce B teams in the 4th division for teams that have full academy's (currently 4) and want to pay to run a 'B' team (probably 3 as i cant imagine Petrie wanting to run another team..

 

The only other way is to allow teams to take over existing teams and for special partnerships with them.. Ie Hearts with Livingston.. i honestly cant understand why we have not looked into this as the distance from Heriot Watt to Almondvale is probably not that much more than to tynecastle.. and it probably takes less time due to Edinburgh traffic..

 

Lets face it the best young players want to sign for the top teams in the SPL.. therefore they get the best training at SFA funded academys.. If they could progress from the U19 league straight into B teams then their progression can continue in a good competitive enviroment.. obviously these teams would not be able to get promoted into the SPL..

 

Reading that Celtic are paying one of their youth players 3K per week means that they can offer the youth players more than most SPL teams pay their regular first team players.. possibly even their highest paid player..

[Diadora Van Basten]

I think that the u19s have done well but unfortunately very few of them will be in the first team squad next year.

 

That seems an enormous waste of talent, it is important that there is competitive football for them to play once they are too old for the u19s.

 

The simplest way to achieve this would be to reinstate the reserve league. This would also allow older first team players recovering from injury to get some game time before playing for the first team e.g. this is what happened with Bruno Aguiar.

 

The downside to the reserve league is that it can have too many demotivated players simply going through the motions (I remember Kevin Thomas making this point).

 

It would therefore also be good to also have an under 23 league cup competition so that players get an opportunity to play competitive games without the older demotivated players.

[Stanley_]

This isn't just about the reserve league. As has been pointed out, we would still have too many players. We've got 41 players who are too old for the U19s this season. Far too many for us.

 

Rub?n Palazuelos

Isma?l Bouzid

Mari?n Kello

Ian Black

Eggert J?nsson

Marius ?aliukas

David Templeton

Adrian Mrowiec

Rudi Sk?cel

Stephen Elliott

Ryan Stevenson

Craig Thomson

Kevin Kyle

Suso Santana

Calum Elliot

Darren Barr

Lee Wallace

Andy Webster

Jamie MacDonald

David Obua

Andrew Driver

Arvydas Novikovas

Jason Thomson

Gary Glen

J?nos Balogh

Ryan McGowan

Dawid Kucharski

Evaldas Razulis

Jamie Mole

Matthew Park

Mark Ridgers

Jonathan Brown

Johnny Stewart

Paul Mulrooney

Dean Lyness

Conrad Balatoni

Dylan McGowan

Michael Deland

Danny Thomson

John Woods

Gordon Smith

[PTBCAL]

Too many players on too much money.

 

Think 7 or 8 players were asked if they would go with a pay off in Jan this year and ALL of them declined.

 

Say's it all really.

[rossthejambo]

This isn't just about the reserve league. As has been pointed out, we would still have too many players. We've got 41 players who are too old for the U19s this season. Far too many for us.

 

Rub?n Palazuelos

Isma?l Bouzid

Mari?n Kello

Ian Black

Eggert J?nsson

Marius ?aliukas

David Templeton

Adrian Mrowiec

Rudi Sk?cel

Stephen Elliott

Ryan Stevenson

Craig Thomson

Kevin Kyle

Suso Santana

Calum Elliot

Darren Barr

Lee Wallace

Andy Webster

Jamie MacDonald

David Obua

Andrew Driver

Arvydas Novikovas

Jason Thomson

Gary Glen

J?nos Balogh

Ryan McGowan

Dawid Kucharski

Evaldas Razulis

Jamie Mole

Matthew Park

Mark Ridgers

Jonathan Brown

Johnny Stewart

Paul Mulrooney

Dean Lyness

Conrad Balatoni

Dylan McGowan

Michael Deland

Danny Thomson

John Woods

Gordon Smith

 

Have struck through the players who I think will be leaving or let go in the close season. That's 11 players. I realise that's not cutting it down all that much but if we are to loan out a few youngsters again then that will reduce it further and with Bouzid and Palazuelos away, that will free up significant wages IMO.

[jambonian]

I don't know why we (in Scotland) don't get over to say... Holland for example and find out why they constantly seem to have a new generation of talent coming through, Germany and other countries seem to be able to develop players regularly also. Even England can find good players for their national team and that's pretty good considering the amount of foreign players that ply their trade there, in all divisions.

I've been questioning the coaching and scouting at Hearts for a few years now, maybe we should just clear the lot of them out and sign up youth coaches from Holland or wherever. I hate when managers say things like "he's not ready for 1st team football yet" and such like, the only way to get experience is by playing. Maybe they should use the League Cup only for under 23's, that way they get gametime and gives the manager a chance to watch them in competitive action and not just in bounce matches.

Over in Holland, they have young boys learning football skills from as young as 7 or 8, they don't let them play competitive matches until they have the skill needed for competition, no goals to score in etc.., all about learning ball control and healthier lifestyles for at least 3 years, something needs done in this country and fast, we've never even been to an International Finals competition for 13 years!

[Jambosr1985]

At last, credit to the OP about time this was discussed in a full and proper manner, a lot on here stated that Eddie Mearns was the future a few years back.

Celtic freed 9 and they were Under 19 champions, we should be looking to do same, with the odd exception/loan its about quality in the first team and it aint coming from the Current 19s.

[alanbauld]

I wonder if putting a team into the junior league would be a good way to go for keeping fringe players active. There is also some (a litle) income generated from these games. Only problem I could see is the present junior clubs might not be over keen on the idea. Possibly the Hearts team would play under another name eg Georgie/Tynecastle etc to allow the junior league to keep its unique identity.

 

Thoughts ?

[Don Roberto]

I wonder if putting a team into the junior league would be a good way to go for keeping fringe players active. There is also some (a litle) income generated from these games. Only problem I could see is the present junior clubs might not be over keen on the idea. Possibly the Hearts team would play under another name eg Georgie/Tynecastle etc to allow the junior league to keep its unique identity.

 

Thoughts ?

I am pretty amazed that this (B teams) has not already happened.

 

However, I can't support the Georgies!

[Footballfirst]

At last, credit to the OP about time this was discussed in a full and proper manner, a lot on here stated that Eddie Mearns was the future a few years back.

Celtic freed 9 and they were Under 19 champions, we should be looking to do same, with the odd exception/loan its about quality in the first team and it aint coming from the Current 19s.

Celtic released only four of their youth cup winning squad, (Stephen O?Donnell, Matty Hughes, Keiran Brennan and Callum Bagshaw). All were advised they were being released more than a month ago and all have offers from other clubs north and south of the broder. I only know of one other, Jordan Lowdon who was also released from that squad.

 

To the best of my knowledge, Hearts have released Fairley, McCormack, Christie, Hill, Snapkauskas and Kapustas from the U19 squad.

[jamboinglasgow]

At last, credit to the OP about time this was discussed in a full and proper manner, a lot on here stated that Eddie Mearns was the future a few years back.

Celtic freed 9 and they were Under 19 champions, we should be looking to do same, with the odd exception/loan its about quality in the first team and it aint coming from the Current 19s.

 

so what you are saying is scrap our current U19s? And the time they released 9 Under 19s was 08/09 season, when they came fifth. And that was at a point when they were under going a major overhaul of their youth set-up.

[jambo19]

[/b]

 

I share your sentiment.

I don't know how much the academy has cost us over the last 4/5 years but if you look at the posts which tell JJ who he should/should not sign, then it has been a distinct failure,

After 5 years we have not produced a worthwhile striker, nor a creative MF, nor a dominating CD so we are forced to enter the transfer/Bosman market and that is what most fans want again this close season.

Our current manager has introduced nobody from the ranks in 16 months and now hints at Prychynenko and Walker as being possibles but both are injured. Holt, I understand, may get a shot. Brilliant.

Looking at yesterday's team

McDonald* - came through but not certainly not established.

Thomson - too small and defensively questionable

Johnsson* - been here for yonks and unconvincing in any position

Zal - signed from Kaunus

Pally - signed from Spain

Temps - signed from Stenny

Black - signed from ICT

Rudi - signed from God knows where

Stevo - signed from Ayr

Elliott - signed from PNE(?)

Of the 3 subs, all came through the ranks but Glen and McGowan are nowhere near 1st team choices leaving Driver who was signed prior to the start of the academy although to be fair he was developed through the academy.

So what is my problem?

Well we have these multitudes of players and numerous teams playing out of Riccarton and yet the academy has not produced one established player in its 5 year existence. Is that because we do not identify the right players. our scouting staff are duff, our coaching staff are deficient or our manager(s) refuse(s) to nurture youth in to the 1st team?

Discuss.

* signed pre-academy

 

Disagree with some stuff there, our coaching staff? Well the 19s just finished 2nd which I think is a good achievement there considering how much Celtic have spent on their 19s team and won the league by 2 points. Our manager has played novikovas, robinson, mcgowan, glen, driver, templeton and others as well as putting prychynenko on the bench. Obviously he has faith otherwise he wouldnt put these players on. We have a great youth set-up and have produced great players from our youth teams over the years like gordon, berra, naysmith, neilson, locke, c thomson, novikovas, mcgowan, robinson. Other players coming through the ranks have been involved in the team.

I've already posted this but i think we are missing a stage in development of players which is to do with having the reserve league scrapped and therefore players just hang about who are not involved and do not progress into quality players. Not much to do with the scouts, coaches, refuse to nurture youth etc. From that starting xi i think people would rather see black ahead of stewart or mulrooney as they would rather see hearts win the game thatn take a risk with a youth player. This is due to not having these players match fit or progressing because they dont get that chance with no reserve league so questioning the youth development and academy is harsh imo.

[Jambosr1985]

"so what you are saying is scrap our current U19s"

 

No i am not saying that, but what is going to happen to the four or five who get deals, lets be honest jeff and bb wont give any of them a game next season the way things are.

 

Robinson must be well peed off, whats he and the others going to do next season. If you do not play football at end of weeks training you are as well chucking it ie Jamie Mole/Deland/Mulrooney/Stewart etc. They are in danger of ending up the same. I stick to my nine for sellic 19s released.

Anyway how can Carswell seriously be considered as goalie coach, thats a joke.

[rossthejambo]

"so what you are saying is scrap our current U19s"

 

No i am not saying that, but what is going to happen to the four or five who get deals, lets be honest jeff and bb wont give any of them a game next season the way things are.

 

Robinson must be well peed off, whats he and the others going to do next season. If you do not play football at end of weeks training you are as well chucking it ie Jamie Mole/Deland/Mulrooney/Stewart etc. They are in danger of ending up the same. I stick to my nine for sellic 19s released.

Anyway how can Carswell seriously be considered as goalie coach, thats a joke.

 

So because Robinson (who is only 18 IIRC) is an unused sub for the 1st team almost every week these days, he's as well retiring? Is that honestly what you're saying?

 

And how exactly do you know that none of the u19's players will be considered for the first team next season? And don't say you know someone on the inside because every time you come out with some alleged insider knowledge it is disproved and shot down within minutes.

 

Your posts about the U19's get more and more bizarre by each passing week.

[Stanley_]

The point is that we have too many players who are in their early twenties who will likely never get a game for us. These are the players that should be moved on and this is the issue that should be addressed. We have too many players who are too old for the U19s which means that when youngsters come through it's more difficult for them to make the breakthrough.

 

It is not the fault of the current U19s that we have 41 players older them in the squad. They should be given contracts if they are good enough (and hopefully more sensible contracts than the previous five year deals that were handed out).

[jambo19]

http://www.heartsfc.co.uk/articles/20110502/youth-remains-priority-sergejus_2241384_2351316 It seems serg has been reading this thread

 

Good article though

[JamboAl]

The odd thing that most people probably don't realise is that the academy in itself doesn't cost much to run as it is subsidised to a large extent by the SFA as part of of their youth development programme. Celtic, Rangers, Hearts and Hibs are the recipients of the bulk of the funds available as they run fully fledged academies with dedicated facilities.

 

Good scouting is obviously important and every club at all levels is looking for talent at schools, boys clubs and other senior clubs. The SPL clubs recently entered into an agreement that clubs would be compensated at ?5k a year for any youth player transferred between clubs. e.g. if we wished to recruit a 14 year old from Hamilton who had been with them for 4 years it would cost us ?20K, which in the current climate is not available at Hearts. You have to be very lucky to find someone at 10 years old that you can develop all the way through to the first team. Most players don't show what they are likely to be capable of until 14 or 15. That is where the the competition for players is at its fiercest. Those clubs that can offer the best deals will get the best players and I'm afraid that Hearts are losing out at the moment.

 

Celtic it seems have money to burn at the moment. Their current U19 squad cost them ?700k to build. They regularly invite players over from Ireland, Australia and Eastern Europe for trials. Indeed, they are currently running a programme to identify talent in India. I know Hearts recently lost out on a potential striker from a local boys club to Celtic who had been on trial with us at U17. Why? .... because they could offer him a better deal.

 

On the positive sde, I do think that we have a great crop of technically good players coming through together who will be playing U19s next season. I can easily see 7 or 8 of them earning contracts. The challenge, in particular for Gary Locke, is to transform that potential into 4 or 5 players of true 1st team quality over the following 2 or 3 years ... and for JJ to show some belief in their ability by playing them not for 15 mins in a meaningless end of season game, but giving them starts in successive games without fear of being dropped should they make a mistake.

 

This seems to contrast with what Serjei is inferring in the article cited by jambo19 in post#48 above.

?1m is coppers if we produce established/saleable players but it is a lot of money if we don't. As I said earlier JJ has not introduced one new academy player in his 16 months in the club and if we are not going to give youth a chance why continue with the academy? I am not saying we should flood the team with youths - they need to be introduced prudently but when I think how we have been found wanting with a big striker and 2 FBs this season, ?1m would have paid the wages of these 3 players at ?6k per week. At the end of this little rant, I am not suggesting we should close the academy - far from it - but either we use it or scrap it. And if the reason we don't use it is that the players are not fit for promotion to the 1st team, on an occasional basis at least, then we need to have a long hard look at our scouting and/or coaching.

[TheBigO]

See, every time a thread about the academy pops up - which this one isn't incidentally - some silly billies/sausages deem to have a go at it and say it isn't producing.

 

Lee Wallace, Andy Driver, Eggert Jonsson, Craig Thomson, Jamie MacDonald, David Templeton (signed and trained by the academy), Jason Thomson, Gary Glen, Arvy Novikovas (as Temps), Calum Elliot, Scott Robinson and Ryan McGowan having all played varying roles this season in getting us to third would disagree.

 

All are still under 23 (other than Jamie), atleast 2 are worth millions as it is and a couple more could be on the way.

 

That JJ hasn't given debuts to anyone since his arrival is due in part to so many getting debuts a bit early. Scott Robinson, had he not been thrown in too early would have been debuted, same goes for Arvy.

 

When you look at that list of young players, can you really blame JJ for not blooding more and who would they have been anyway? The likes of Mulrooney and Stewart are simply not considered good enough and that's why they don't appear on the list.

 

Next season I've no doubt we'll see a couple of debuts (Denis and maybe Holt seem obvious - maybe Walker and Ogelby?) and an increased role for Robinson and maybe Arvy too depending on who stays/goes and on Arvy's mental development.

 

The academy is producing good players and many have made the step up or, in some cases, are in the middle of doing so (bench appearances and the likes). The sad fact is that it's very very hard to tell who is and isn't ready going from 19s and training into first team football, especially without just dipping their toes in from the bench.

 

Only in Scotland would we be so backward as to not see that the gap between youth and senior football has been what has plagued our game for years (and not just since the reserve league went, although that was another huge step backwards.) On the whole, Scottish youth teams punch above their weight up until u20. We produce a lot of cracking 15 and 16 yearold kids. We simply don't know what to do when they get to late teens. We expect them to be ready to play fulltime football and that they will be the finished article. The pressures of a small league where every point is scrapped for and very little football is allowed to be played takes over and talented laddies either fall by the way-side or become heffers.

 

Will it change? Hearts seem to be the only ones making any noise about it and for that I'm happy.