Everyone should read!

[tartofmidlothian]

A brilliant antidote to the tabloid sensationalism that surrounds the subject. In NI it's absolutely ingrained and endemic. In (the west of) Scotland, it's a few a*******s looking for an excuse to fight. Important we all remember this IMO.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2011/apr/24/scotland-sectarianism-research-data

 

"Most Scots are not football fans; most fans do not support Rangers or Celtic; most Rangers and Celtic fans are not religious bigots. That some Rangers and Celtic fans wind each other up by falsely claiming to have strong religio-ethnic identities which are offended by the equally false religio-ethnic identities of the other side is not a reason for the rest of us to take such ritual posturing as the basis for judging the polity, society and culture of an entire country.

 

The sectarianism of Scotland is a myth: popular in some places but a myth nonetheless."

[IMA MAROON]

A brilliant antidote to the tabloid sensationalism that surrounds the subject.

 

OFGTF folk love it.

[Colonel Kurtz]

Fairly accurate summary

There will an event in George square in Glasgow against what they call anti Irish bigotry in SCotland ,the guest speakers are Mcbride QC, George Galloway and The Asian lawyer boy,thank christ Sheridan doing stardy or we would have the full bunch of bandgagon jumpers.

Whats the betting that this turns into a Timfest,still Danielle O Donnell and The Wolftones are in Glasgow just now they could get Subo and Michelle Mcmanus as The backing group..The Timmettes and have a great craic

[Guest Dr. Pepper]

In (the west of) Scotland, it's a few a*******s looking for an excuse to fight. Important we all remember this IMO.

 

 

Aye its just the west of Scotland

[Vlad-Stupid]

Won't be long until somebody's along to slag off our supporters.

[Guest juvehearts]

if it all goes tits up the TGFITW will hold a candlelight vigil for the sufferers

[topcat]

Rather than restating what I said then I direct you to the book review I posted last week

http://www.hmfckickback.co.uk/index.php?/topic/91612-parcel-bombs-sent-to-lennon-merged-topics/page__view__findpost__p__2178830

 

But also

 

 

There's a spike in all sorts of violent crime associated with the Old Firm Derby however that goes for most big derby matches

 

The Celtic Rangers rivalry is intensified by the fact that they invariably are the only two contenders for the league

 

but mainly

 

The Old Firm Match is linked to a huge spike in binge drinking which offers a plausible alternative explanation for the accompanying violence as opposed to the "simmering ethnic hatred and bigotry" theory that is popularly advanced.

 

Overwhelmingly more violent crime is linked to alcohol abuse than to football or sectarianism and the overwhelming majority of the crime "linked" to football, sectarianism or both is committed by people who are pissed.

 

That's not to say that violent bigotry doesn't exist in Scotland but it does put it into some perspective.

 

Even if the Orange Order were all genuine violent bigots, which is tenuous as politically they tend to oppose the moderate UUP when it come to Ulster politics as opposed to the more fiery varieties of unionism, there still wouldn't be enough of them to fill Ibrox (never mind any spare orange barstewards to fill Tynecastle) and in terms of getting numbers out marching on the street in bright colours to show pride in their shared identity they lag a bit behind Gay Pride. Arguably Scotland is more pink than orange but nobody would say that Scotland is endemically homosexual.

 

The organisers of this demo would probably be better off campaigning for sensible alcohol consumption but that's hardly like to go down as well with a large crowd of Glaswegians.

 

Worse still this can actually stoke sectarian division where it didn't previously exist. By trying to persuade people "Unlike you, That lot over there are all bigots and hate you" you can create precisely what you supposedly want to destroy. And when taken to an extra degree trying to portray people who do peddle this "Oppressed victim" as being representative of their entire supposed community can't do anything to endear them to outsiders.

[shaun.lawson]

OFGTF folk love it.

 

What about ILRFCBCGTF folk?

[portobellojambo1]

Even if the Orange Order were all genuine violent bigots, which is tenuous as politically they tend to oppose the moderate UUP when it come to Ulster politics as opposed to the more fiery varieties of unionism, there still wouldn't be enough of them to fill Ibrox

 

It is maybe just the way I've read the above topcat, but you appear to be possibly contradicting yourself, in as much as you appear to be saying you accept that not all members of The Orange Order are violent bigots (which I agree with, in fact I'd say few are (none should be, if they understand why they joined in the first place, but I cannot speak for all)), but you base this on the fact that in Northern Ireland they are more prone to alignment with hard line unionist parties rather than the more moderate UUP.

[topcat]

It is maybe just the way I've read the above topcat, but you appear to be possibly contradicting yourself, in as much as you appear to be saying you accept that not all members of The Orange Order are violent bigots (which I agree with, in fact I'd say few are (none should be, if they understand why they joined in the first place, but I cannot speak for all)), but you base this on the fact that in Northern Ireland they are more prone to alignment with hard line unionist parties rather than the more moderate UUP.

 

Which shows that I should have proof read before posting

 

I'd originally phrased it the other way round listing the opposition towards the hardliners first and then thought the phrase would work better the other way round and edited it round but somehow omitted to change the verb.

 

"oppose" should indeed read "support"

 

Mea culpa

[wibble]

Good find by the OP and great points made by Topcat.

 

Alcohol is indeed the true scourge of Scotland, but try suggesting limiting it's consumption by lifting prices and suddenly those who bitch most about violent streets and unruly teenagers are on your back because they like a cheap binge themselves.

 

Scotland, and indeed Britain, need to take a look at alcohol pricing and marketing if they want to pull back from the brink of an utterly degenerate society. I doubt it will happen as there are too many secret alcoholics who care more about getting cheap drink than care about the mess on the streets and in the homes of many.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Normally, below the line comments on an article in The Grauniad are better than the article itself.

 

 

That can't be said for this article.

[Ben Dover]

One page was given over to a fire which severely damaged a Catholic church in Stornoway. The implication was clear: "Priest's church blaze agony" was caused by "Old Firm Mayhem". The boring truth, which merited just one column inch in a sister tabloid the following week, was that the fire was caused by an electrical fault.

 

The ^^^^ that wrote that article should have been booted in the baws before being sacked

 

Just goes to show it suits certain people to keep this mythical pot simmering

[speedbump]

Good find by the OP and great points made by Topcat.

 

Alcohol is indeed the true scourge of Scotland, but try suggesting limiting it's consumption by lifting prices and suddenly those who bitch most about violent streets and unruly teenagers are on your back because they like a cheap binge themselves.

 

Scotland, and indeed Britain, need to take a look at alcohol pricing and marketing if they want to pull back from the brink of an utterly degenerate society. I doubt it will happen as there are too many secret alcoholics who care more about getting cheap drink than care about the mess on the streets and in the homes of many.

 

Alcohol pricing isn't the real issue, there are plenty of places in the world where drink is much cheaper than here that don't have drink related health and social problems. British attitudes towards drink is the true problem.

Minimum pricing is a stalking horse for more taxation.

[jamboinglasgow]

Alcohol pricing isn't the real issue, there are plenty of places in the world where drink is much cheaper than here that don't have drink related health and social problems. British attitudes towards drink is the true problem.

Minimum pricing is a stalking horse for more taxation.

 

exactly, Minimum pricing is a policy that sounds good to politicians as it suggests an easy fix by just raising the price, it sounds good to health workers as it is at least something. But in reality it is as you say missing the point with Scotland's attitude towards alchohol. Scotland has a history towards alcohol that is in common with most North European, we need to change our attitude of alcohol from one where drinking to excess is seen as a positive thing to one of a more moderate drinking level, and to do that takes much effort across different areas of government and is a huge long-term challenge to achieve. There are no short cuts, no headline policies that will do it all.

[topcat]

Alcohol pricing isn't the real issue, there are plenty of places in the world where drink is much cheaper than here that don't have drink related health and social problems. British attitudes towards drink is the true problem.

Minimum pricing is a stalking horse for more taxation.

 

You seem to confuse not being the problem with not being a potential solution (or at least partial solution)

 

Quite how effective minimum pricing would be in ameliorating the worst societal effects of our attitudes towards drink is a complex question that deserved more considered debate than it got. Apart from everything else we could expect the effects to be hugely different at different levels. The bill that went before Holyrood would really only have had a major affect on the chap who enjoys his cider from a large blue plastic bottle while Norwegian prices would have had a huge impact on almost all of Scottish society. That's not to say that Norwegian prices would be a good thing as having a safer society would be paid for (as they usually are) by having a less free one.

 

As for your comments about taxation that doesn't make much sense duty is charged according to strength so a ?3.25 bottle of plonk carries the same duty as a ?32.50 bottle of chateau-neuf de pape. Taking the ?3.25 bottle off the market doesn't increase returns and indeed if consumption does decrease so will tax yield

 

Anyway this is getting side tracked

 

I could just as easily suggested that they spent their time campaigning for road safety. At the moment someone dies on Scotland's roads roughly every other day just about everybody reading this will know somebody who has been in a serious accident or even lost a loved one. Compared to this Sectarian violence is a tiny issue and reducing road accidents by 1% would save more heartache than eliminating sectarian violence altogether.

[Heartbeat]

One page was given over to a fire which severely damaged a Catholic church in Stornoway. The implication was clear: "Priest's church blaze agony" was caused by "Old Firm Mayhem". The boring truth, which merited just one column inch in a sister tabloid the following week, was that the fire was caused by an electrical fault.

 

The ^^^^ that wrote that article should have been booted in the baws before being sacked :angry:

 

Just goes to show it suits certain people to keep this mythical pot simmering

 

or as my old tradesman used to say " they should castrate the barsteward and then cut his baws off"

[syndicalist]

Sometimes even the most reasoned of us can get carried away in the media frenzy and I include myself in that. Good article, firmly based in reality. I know I've done this before but I would recommend hydeparkhearts novel chaotic justice which includes a fairly realistic view of sectarianism through some crazy characters in 1970's Edinburgh.

My link

[fabienleclerq]

You seem to confuse not being the problem with not being a potential solution (or at least partial solution)

 

Quite how effective minimum pricing would be in ameliorating the worst societal effects of our attitudes towards drink is a complex question that deserved more considered debate than it got. Apart from everything else we could expect the effects to be hugely different at different levels. The bill that went before Holyrood would really only have had a major affect on the chap who enjoys his cider from a large blue plastic bottle while Norwegian prices would have had a huge impact on almost all of Scottish society. That's not to say that Norwegian prices would be a good thing as having a safer society would be paid for (as they usually are) by having a less free one.

I dont think i agree with minimum pricing, people's attitudes are the problem.An alcoholic is not going to stop drinking because of a price hike (who would pocket the differance?) and as alcoholism doesn't just effect the poorer parts of society, i can't see the effects on better off alcoholics. Also i don't abuse alcohol so why should i pay more for it??

 

Back to the op, im only 24 so how much has sectarianism changed over the years? has it declined as society realises that it's not acceptable,the same way racism has or has it stayed at a similar level?

[redm]

Interesting article and some top notch input from TC but in a similar vein, I wonder just how many Glaswegians had seen/heard of this survey they mention? Also, if they're looking at such things I really hope they spread the net a little wider than just Glasgow city - it's the satellite towns/areas that might provide some interesting input from people who think they live in amongst it all and I can't see too many Merchant City dwellers having much to say about stuff like this, they're not going to be hanging around the East End or Govan come tea time on match day.

 

I did read something quite recently which asked whether it was possible that sectarian problems in Scotland were simply a media construct and I have to say I did wonder, but not for long enough to really take it seriously. They certainly play their role but they're not to blame for the intolerance and thuggish stuff that gives them reason to write their stories. The vocal minority tend to shout the loudest sometimes though.

[topcat]

Interesting article and some top notch input from TC but in a similar vein, I wonder just how many Glaswegians had seen/heard of this survey they mention? Also, if they're looking at such things I really hope they spread the net a little wider than just Glasgow city - it's the satellite towns/areas that might provide some interesting input from people who think they live in amongst it all and I can't see too many Merchant City dwellers having much to say about stuff like this, they're not going to be hanging around the East End or Govan come tea time on match day.

 

I did read something quite recently which asked whether it was possible that sectarian problems in Scotland were simply a media construct and I have to say I did wonder, but not for long enough to really take it seriously. They certainly play their role but they're not to blame for the intolerance and thuggish stuff that gives them reason to write their stories. The vocal minority tend to shout the loudest sometimes though.

 

They're not "simply a media construct". Tabloid fuelled moral panics are invariably sparked by something real that is then blown out of all proportion.

 

To backup claims an rising tide of anti-catholic bigotry in Scottish society by reference to the Neil Lennon case, as "Scotland United" seem to be doing, is not dissimilar to claiming that the Joseph Fritzl case is evidence of a decline in Austrian parenting skills

 

It's common for people who try and deflate the bubble of fear and paranoia to be accused of denying that the problem exists but of course Fritzl was a genuine monster and Islam4UK are genuine tossers.

 

The author of the article in the Guardian (also one of the writers of "Sectarianism in Scotland") that started this doesn't argue that sectarian division doesn't exist simply that it doesn't exist on anything like the scale commonly suggested. Almost everybody concerned has an interest in exagerating claims while very few have any incentive to question the claims.