Jim Jefferies

[Debut 4]

Does that really matter ? We're not in control of who we get as a manager. The merits and de-merits of every single Hearts manager since the internet age have been discussed

I dont want Jefferies to leave. Ive said this several times, but I do think he's limited. Probably the best available to us right now but limited and not the long term answer.

 

I'm quite sure Jim Jefferies doesnt give a stuff about my opinion and nor does Mr Romanov.

 

Here's my position once more so that you dont have to repeat that I want him gone.

I want to keep him for now, accepting his limitations, but I want us to be on the look out for a long term replacement and if a better man than Jefferies becomes apparent to us who potentially isnt so limited, then I want us to go and get him. There is a glass ceiling on achievement with Jefferies. At some stage, if other conditions are right, I want us to see if we can break through it. Jefferies is not the man to do that with. He's safe ( well fairly safe) and he wont get us into any trouble. But he was last a winner 13 years ago and he's not got it in him him to be a winner now IMO

 

Why? Because someone has told the truth about you? Thats fine btw, you are entitled to your opinion but you definitely fall into the bracket of "blame the manager" at anything that goes wrong. Very blnkered and stubborn.

 

Jefferies won`t be manager forever(huge sigh of relief from yourself im sure) but i really don`t get the few Hearts fans who almost can`t bear him as manager? A man who has proven himself as one of our best over the last 50 years, yes, 50 years.

 

The longing for a title winning manager/team has went on for the last 51 years. All the chat , all the talk, all the opinions of what is best for Hearts. But you know, sometimes be happy with what you`ve got and encourage the club to keep pushing on to improve itself. But to do that you don`t offload a manager who is doing reasonably well although he hasn`t delivered success in the form of a cup/title.

 

When you think about it, how many genuinely good managers in that time have given us stability and a bit consistency season to season? Once the 60`s were over it all went pear shaped bar one good season in the early 70`s that still went downhill eventually.

 

Then of course Alex MacDonald came in. Since then, you could argue only Jordan, Levein and Jefferies have given us some sort of genuine credibility over a decent period. The team in 06 almost carried itself amid the mayhem.

 

Myself and other Hearts supporting friends have a desire to see us be the best but you have to keep a sense of reality too. Maybe we could give Ranieri another call?

[jambo_til_i_die]

Well if you did fair enough, but I bet your one of those that bases their opinions from the radio.

 

Am I close?

 

 

Nope, you can only judge on what you see at games, and I may not get to as many as a few but for me Suso shows lack of interest, greedy at most times and a hot head, and for me as a fan with an opinion, I don't rate him. As for Bouzid, for me it's only a miracle that he hasn't turned out like Lorenzo Amoruso type defender, he is still on the verge of exploding.

[Only a Game]

Why? Because someone has told the truth about you? Thats fine btw, you are entitled to your opinion but you definitely fall into the bracket of "blame the manager" at anything that goes wrong. Very blnkered and stubborn.

 

 

 

I dont though. I blame him for the things he gets wrong that are his direct fault and even then, he gets the blame ( from me) only for those things that are his sole responsibility. Theres nothing blinkered or stubborn about that.

 

There are two reasons we havent achieved a great deal since the 60's

 

One, and the overpowering reason, is that the Old Firm have usually been way too strong for us. Not much we can do about that. However the second reason is that we walk about with a defeatist negative attitude thinking that 3rd out of 12 is a great achievement. Its a feck all achievement, scoffed at by everyone else apart from the team that actually finishes third and we should always be looking to go better than that or at the very least explore ways of doing so. We never ever will if Jim Jefferies is an example of our ambition and our future planning. Yes we might never actually achieve the pinnacle. If you're not actually trying to achieve that pinnacle in the level of sport your playing, whats the fecking point ? We actually set third out of 12 as a target most seasons. What kind of attitude is that to start out with FFS.

 

Jefferies is safe. No more than that and no less than that. He's risk averse just as the whole club is risk averse these days. Christ he wont even take a chance on sticking a couple of young players in the team to see how they respond. Young players who, I might add, have been around for a few years apparently just waiting for the exit door to be shown without ever getting a decent chance. He'd rather pick dumplings like Obua and a brickies labourer like Mroweic. If thats a good enough approach and philosophy for you and if thats ambitious enough for you then so-be-it. Frankly it does my tits in ( as you can no doubt tell)

[Drylaw Hearts]

. However the second reason is that we walk about with a defeatist negative attitude thinking that 3rd out of 12 is a great achievement. Its a feck all achievement, scoffed at by everyone else apart from the team that actually finishes third

 

3rd place is scoffed at ?

 

Really ?

[Only a Game]

3rd place is scoffed at ?

 

Really ?

 

Hibs finished 3rd in recent memory. I scoffed.

 

Dundee Utd, Motherwell, Aberdeen. Theyve all done it fairly recently as far as I remember. I scoffed. They probably thought it was good. Inwardly it probably was and probably is even for us. To everyone else, its scoffable. If you celebrate third then not only are you a loser, you actually finished behind the loser.

 

Finishing the "best of the rest" (only just by the look of things) in this standard of league league. C'mon mate it's what the word scoffable was invented for.

[IMA MAROON]

Hibs finished 3rd in recent memory. I scoffed.

 

Dundee Utd, Motherwell, Aberdeen. Theyve all done it fairly recently as far as I remember. I scoffed. They probably thought it was good. Inwardly it probably was and probably is even for us. To everyone else, its scoffable.

 

Finishing the "best of the rest" (only just by the look of things) in this standard of league league. C'mon mate it's what the word scoffable was invented for.

 

If the league is that easy to win for clubs outside the Old Firm then why has nobody did so since SAF?

[Only a Game]

If the league is that easy to win for clubs outside the Old Firm then why has nobody did so since SAF?

 

Who the feck said it was easy ?

 

Finishing third is easy !!!

 

So easy you manage it with an 11 game winning run with bottom six form either side of it.

[Drylaw Hearts]

Hibs finished 3rd in recent memory. I scoffed.

 

Dundee Utd, Motherwell, Aberdeen. Theyve all done it fairly recently as far as I remember. I scoffed. They probably thought it was good. Inwardly it probably was and probably is even for us. To everyone else, its scoffable. If you celebrate third then not only are you a loser, you actually finished behind the loser.

 

Finishing the "best of the rest" (only just by the look of things) in this standard of league league. C'mon mate it's what the word scoffable was invented for.

 

Upon finishing 3rd I celebrate getting into Europe.

[IMA MAROON]

Who the feck said it was easy ?

 

Finishing third is easy !!!

 

So easy you manage it with an 11 game winning run with bottom six form either side of it.

 

We are the best of the rest.

[Charlie-Brown]

In my lifetime Hearts have never won the league, have finished runner-up 4 times, and been 3rd or below (sometimes way below) every other season.

 

3rd represents a good season for Hearts - no doubt about that, 2nd represents an excellent season - 1st well we can only dream about that but who knows some day

 

Finishing 4th or just below is about our average performance.

[Clerry Jambo]

Hibs finished 3rd in recent memory. I scoffed.

 

Dundee Utd, Motherwell, Aberdeen. Theyve all done it fairly recently as far as I remember. I scoffed. They probably thought it was good. Inwardly it probably was and probably is even for us. To everyone else, its scoffable. If you celebrate third then not only are you a loser, you actually finished behind the loser.

 

Finishing the "best of the rest" (only just by the look of things) in this standard of league league. C'mon mate it's what the word scoffable was invented for.

 

I know where you're coming from OAG and agree in the main.

 

I think many Hearts supporters agree aswell as Tynie isn't exactly bulging on match days, a team challenging for the league and Tynie isn't big enough

[Only a Game]

We are the best of the rest.

 

 

Yeh, well pardon me if I dont take a week off work and line the streets of Gorgie for it.

[Only a Game]

In my lifetime Hearts have never won the league, have finished runner-up 4 times, and been 3rd or below (sometimes way below) every other season.

 

3rd represents a good season for Hearts - no doubt about that, 2nd represents an excellent season - 1st well we can only dream about that but who knows some day

 

Finishing 4th or just below is about our average performance.

 

1965. A very thin bawhair away from the title.

1986. Just as thin a bawhair away

1998. A wee bit further away but it was very do-able up until the last 4 weeks

2006. We'll never know what would have happened.

 

Not all that far away from 4 titles. I wonder if anyone would be celebrating 3rd if we'd won a couple of them, especially the more recent ones.

[Debut 4]

I dont though. I blame him for the things he gets wrong that are his direct fault and even then, he gets the blame ( from me) only for those things that are his sole responsibility. Theres nothing blinkered or stubborn about that.

 

There are two reasons we havent achieved a great deal since the 60's

 

One, and the overpowering reason, is that the Old Firm have usually been way too strong for us. Not much we can do about that. However the second reason is that we walk about with a defeatist negative attitude thinking that 3rd out of 12 is a great achievement. Its a feck all achievement, scoffed at by everyone else apart from the team that actually finishes third and we should always be looking to go better than that or at the very least explore ways of doing so. We never ever will if Jim Jefferies is an example of our ambition and our future planning. Yes we might never actually achieve the pinnacle. If you're not actually trying to achieve that pinnacle in the level of sport your playing, whats the fecking point ? We actually set third out of 12 as a target most seasons. What kind of attitude is that to start out with FFS.Jefferies is safe. No more than that and no less than that. He's risk averse just as the whole club is risk averse these days. Christ he wont even take a chance on sticking a couple of young players in the team to see how they respond. Young players who, I might add, have been around for a few years apparently just waiting for the exit door to be shown without ever getting a decent chance. He'd rather pick dumplings like Obua and a brickies labourer like Mroweic. If thats a good enough approach and philosophy for you and if thats ambitious enough for you then so-be-it. Frankly it does my tits in ( as you can no doubt tell)

 

First bit in bold i totally agree with. You start every season believing you can win the league. But who says JJ doesn`t send that message to the team? There are two different worlds, one in the media and one in the changing room. Rangers and Celtic have won mountains of leagues but still don`t say they "will" win it, they say they "can"......but even saying they can is something they have more right to say given their record.

 

If JJ comes out the first league game of the season and says we can win the league he is there to be shot down, not only by the media, but by guys like yourself who don`t like him.....if he failed to do so. Even in 86 it took Alex MacDonald, a man who`d been over the course at Rangers, till around February to openly say Hearts CAN win the league......but he said it in the dressing room.

 

The second highlighted bit is partly puzzling? Whats Jefferies team selection got to do with me? I don`t approve of some of his picks and i certainly don`t accept third spot as our highest aim but all the same it isn`t a disaster and i`d rather be 3rd if we aren`t breaking into the top 2.. Again, and its seems to have been missed by you, that JJ actually has a good record of bringing through young players and maybe he thinks some aren`t quite ready?.... time will tell.

[Drylaw Hearts]

1965. A very thin bawhair away from the title.

1986. Just as thin a bawhair away

1998. A wee bit further away but it was very do-able up until the last 4 weeks

2006. We'll never know what would have happened.

 

Not all that far away from 4 titles. I wonder if anyone would be celebrating 3rd if we'd won a couple of them, especially the more recent ones.

 

Did you celebrate finishing 2nd in 2006 ?

 

Or to rephrase it.....

 

Did you celebrate being the first loser ?

[Clerry Jambo]

Did you celebrate finishing 2nd in 2006 ?

 

Or to rephrase it.....

 

Did you celebrate being the first loser ?

 

More celebrating being in the Champions League DH, ofcourse 2nd was a decent achievement, BUT it could have been a lot more!

[Only a Game]

Did you celebrate finishing 2nd in 2006 ?

 

Or to rephrase it.....

 

Did you celebrate being the first loser ?

 

No I celebrated qualifying for the Champions League. I celebrated the end of one of the most enjoyable and heart stopping seasons for years and years. Even then, I did have a twinge of sadness at what might have been that season.

[Drylaw Hearts]

More celebrating being in the Champions League DH, ofcourse 2nd was a decent achievement, BUT it could have been a lot more!

 

 

No I celebrated qualifying for the Champions League. I celebrated the end of one of the most enjoyable and heart stopping seasons for years and years. Even then, I did have a twinge of sadness at what might have been that season.

 

I think any celebrations you see for finishing 3rd are because we've qualified for European competition again.

 

We all know it could have been better but looking back we now know how much money it takes to get to that level and unfortunately we just aren't big enough or have an owner is willing to continue to throw millions away to make us serious challengers every season.

[CMc]

No I celebrated qualifying for the qualifiers forthe Champions League. I celebrated the end of one of the most enjoyable and heart stopping seasons for years and years. Even then, I did have a twinge of sadness at what might have been that season.

 

Coming second was a good result. That's why we celebrated. Claiming different is a load of pish.

[Debut 4]

Did you celebrate finishing 2nd in 2006 ?

 

Or to rephrase it.....

 

Did you celebrate being the first loser ?

haha, great point....

[Only a Game]

Coming second was a good result. That's why we celebrated. Claiming different is a load of pish.

Funny that. Hibs fans said we qualified for the qualifiers. As far as I'm concerned the tournament we played in the following season was called the Champions League.

[CMc]

Funny that. Hibs fans said we qualified for the qualifiers. As far as I'm concerned the tournament we played in the following season was called the Champions League.

 

If you are trying to imply that I am a Hobo then read post #73 on this thread. Do I sound like a Hobo?

Your stance just seems a bit weird. Downplaying a decent title attempt in favour of getting into the qualifiers of the champions league? I find it hard to believe that someone would be so dismissive of what by any objective standards was a very good league finish for us and yet make a big deal out of what turned out to be a pretty brief and disappointing European adventure. Did you really not celebrate a higher than normal finish, even if just because we pissed of Rangers? Not even a little?

[Only a Game]

If you are trying to imply that I am a Hobo then read post #73 on this thread. Do I sound like a Hobo?

Your stance just seems a bit weird. Downplaying a decent title attempt in favour of getting into the qualifiers of the champions league? I find it hard to believe that someone would be so dismissive of what by any objective standards was a very good league finish for us and yet make a big deal out of what turned out to be a pretty brief and disappointing European adventure. Did you really not celebrate a higher than normal finish, even if just because we pissed of Rangers? Not even a little?

 

 

Okay. I'd agree there's a distinction between 3rd place and 2nd place. Its still not the same as winning, therefore its technically losing but and if you get second its an achievement worth being pleased about in its own right because youve finished above at least one of the Old Firm. And we certainly didnt feel like losers that season.

 

That title attempt and the others we've (fairly) recently been involved in illustrates exactly what is achievable for Hearts, although strangely enough it was done for the most part, without a decent manager at the helm. However it was done by a group of players who, despite all that was going on around them, had no fear of any of the opposition they came up against. Okay, a better quality of player right enough, but taken places by the power of positive thinking, almost a siege mentality and definitely a culture of winning mentality and an abundance of determination. Exactly the qualities that Aberdeen and Dundee Utd built their successes on back in the day. Our teams in 86 and 06 also had it to a certain extent.

 

I think its possible for a manager of a certain type (one with balls of steel right enough)to come into Hearts, build a squad on the funds available and have a real tilt at the Old Firm. I certainly think its desirable to believe that its possible to instill the possibility into the squad so that, at the very least they are not shitting their pants every time they go to Glasgow and we're not getting thoroughly embarrassed every time (almost) we go there. If you start getting a little bit of joy in Glasgow the knock on effect could snowball into something. Exactly what happened with Aberdeen and Dundee Utd back in the day.

 

Its fine margins we are talking about here. We're not that much off them. Just half a dozens swings in results over the course of a season and we'd be right there IMO. Just a little bit more quality and a lot more belief and determination. The belief and determination has to come initially from the manager. I dont think for one minute that Jim Jefferies ever thought we had even a small chance of the title this season. I dont believe he transmitted any belief to the players before the vital games in Glasgow in January. You can easily make a case for us being 15-20 points better off than we are this season.

 

I dont think Jim Jefferies has the gravitas to take us any further or any closer to the Old Firm than we are just now. He doesnt believe its possible and that leaves you at a disadvantage before you even start to try.

[CMc]

Okay. I'd agree there's a distinction between 3rd place and 2nd place. Its still not the same as winning, therefore its technically losing but and if you get second its an achievement worth being pleased about in its own right because youve finished above at least one of the Old Firm. And we certainly didnt feel like losers that season.

 

That title attempt and the others we've (fairly) recently been involved in illustrates exactly what is achievable for Hearts, although strangely enough it was done for the most part, without a decent manager at the helm. However it was done by a group of players who, despite all that was going on around them, had no fear of any of the opposition they came up against. Okay, a better quality of player right enough, but taken places by the power of positive thinking, almost a siege mentality and definitely a culture of winning mentality and an abundance of determination. Exactly the qualities that Aberdeen and Dundee Utd built their successes on back in the day. Our teams in 86 and 06 also had it to a certain extent.

 

I think its possible for a manager of a certain type (one with balls of steel right enough)to come into Hearts, build a squad on the funds available and have a real tilt at the Old Firm. I certainly think its desirable to believe that its possible to instill the possibility into the squad so that, at the very least they are not shitting their pants every time they go to Glasgow and we're not getting thoroughly embarrassed every time (almost) we go there. If you start getting a little bit of joy in Glasgow the knock on effect could snowball into something. Exactly what happened with Aberdeen and Dundee Utd back in the day.

 

Its fine margins we are talking about here. We're not that much off them. Just half a dozens swings in results over the course of a season and we'd be right there IMO. Just a little bit more quality and a lot more belief and determination. The belief and determination has to come initially from the manager. I dont think for one minute that Jim Jefferies ever thought we had even a small chance of the title this season. I dont believe he transmitted any belief to the players before the vital games in Glasgow in January. You can easily make a case for us being 15-20 points better off than we are this season.

 

I dont think Jim Jefferies has the gravitas to take us any further or any closer to the Old Firm than we are just now. He doesnt believe its possible and that leaves you at a disadvantage before you even start to try.

 

I can understand what you are saying. Jim is not a Mourinho or Ferguson who by the strength of their own will and personality can dramatically transform the mentality of a team overnight. However, the major successes of Mourinho and Ferguson have resulted from them taking over a team that already had a lot of potential and inspiring them to believe they could win. That was not the position Hearts were in when Jefferies took over. squad was not particularly good and we had to many big egos who could not play as a team. I don't think anyone needed to tell Kingston or Stewart they were superstars. What we needed was a careful overhaul of the playing staff and a return to the core values of the club. Jim has done that and is continuing to do it. He was the right man for the job at the time and is still the right man (IMO)while we continue to restructure. I think Jim will bring us a lot closer to the OF over the next few seasons. After that, who knows? Maybe you will be right and we will meet our limitations and stop progressing. Then maybe we should get in a young inspiring coach who can install that no fear, we can beat anyone attitude into our team. That could certainly work well if Jim has added more players of the calibre of Kyle, Webster and Elliott over the next four or five years. I don't think it would have worked with Csaba's team though.

 

I don't think we should be expecting Hearts to make sudden jumps form fighting for third place to genuine title contenders. The closest we have had to that situation was the Burley season. Yes, Burley transformed the mentality of the side, but part of that was to do with guys like Fyssas, Janny, Rudi and Bednar all coming into the team at once. We paid top dollar for that and so are unlikely to be able to afford to do that again. This time round I think we need the squad to evolve over a few seasons rather than attempt another go at revolutionary change. I still think Jim is the man to do that. If we stop making forward progress then it may be time for change. Until then I think we have the right man for the job.

Edit: I also think the gradual improvement option is far more stable than the throwing everything into a title challenge for one season. This current method is improving our onfield performance as well as our budget, whilst the extravaganza of 05/06 did not last long and is still being paid for.

[Slap]

Laszlo was a disaster and was dragging us downwards.

 

JJ and his team have stabilised the situation and look likely to continue to improve us. Not sure anyone can really ask for more.

 

 

Absolutely spot on..............

[Debut 4]

I can understand what you are saying. Jim is not a Mourinho or Ferguson who by the strength of their own will and personality can dramatically transform the mentality of a team overnight. However, the major successes of Mourinho and Ferguson have resulted from them taking over a team that already had a lot of potential and inspiring them to believe they could win. That was not the position Hearts were in when Jefferies took over. squad was not particularly good and we had to many big egos who could not play as a team. I don't think anyone needed to tell Kingston or Stewart they were superstars. What we needed was a careful overhaul of the playing staff and a return to the core values of the club. Jim has done that and is continuing to do it. He was the right man for the job at the time and is still the right man (IMO)while we continue to restructure. I think Jim will bring us a lot closer to the OF over the next few seasons. After that, who knows? Maybe you will be right and we will meet our limitations and stop progressing. Then maybe we should get in a young inspiring coach who can install that no fear, we can beat anyone attitude into our team. That could certainly work well if Jim has added more players of the calibre of Kyle, Webster and Elliott over the next four or five years. I don't think it would have worked with Csaba's team though.

 

I don't think we should be expecting Hearts to make sudden jumps form fighting for third place to genuine title contenders. The closest we have had to that situation was the Burley season. Yes, Burley transformed the mentality of the side, but part of that was to do with guys like Fyssas, Janny, Rudi and Bednar all coming into the team at once. We paid top dollar for that and so are unlikely to be able to afford to do that again. This time round I think we need the squad to evolve over a few seasons rather than attempt another go at revolutionary change. I still think Jim is the man to do that. If we stop making forward progress then it may be time for change. Until then I think we have the right man for the job.

Edit: I also think the gradual improvement option is far more stable than the throwing everything into a title challenge for one season. This current method is improving our onfield performance as well as our budget, whilst the extravaganza of 05/06 did not last long and is still being paid for.

Good, realistic and level headed post

[Only a Game]

Good, realistic and level headed post

 

I agree.

[southside1874]

I can understand what you are saying. Jim is not a Mourinho or Ferguson who by the strength of their own will and personality can dramatically transform the mentality of a team overnight. However, the major successes of Mourinho and Ferguson have resulted from them taking over a team that already had a lot of potential and inspiring them to believe they could win. That was not the position Hearts were in when Jefferies took over. squad was not particularly good and we had to many big egos who could not play as a team. I don't think anyone needed to tell Kingston or Stewart they were superstars. What we needed was a careful overhaul of the playing staff and a return to the core values of the club. Jim has done that and is continuing to do it. He was the right man for the job at the time and is still the right man (IMO)while we continue to restructure. I think Jim will bring us a lot closer to the OF over the next few seasons. After that, who knows? Maybe you will be right and we will meet our limitations and stop progressing. Then maybe we should get in a young inspiring coach who can install that no fear, we can beat anyone attitude into our team. That could certainly work well if Jim has added more players of the calibre of Kyle, Webster and Elliott over the next four or five years. I don't think it would have worked with Csaba's team though.

 

I don't think we should be expecting Hearts to make sudden jumps form fighting for third place to genuine title contenders. The closest we have had to that situation was the Burley season. Yes, Burley transformed the mentality of the side, but part of that was to do with guys like Fyssas, Janny, Rudi and Bednar all coming into the team at once. We paid top dollar for that and so are unlikely to be able to afford to do that again. This time round I think we need the squad to evolve over a few seasons rather than attempt another go at revolutionary change. I still think Jim is the man to do that. If we stop making forward progress then it may be time for change. Until then I think we have the right man for the job.

Edit: I also think the gradual improvement option is far more stable than the throwing everything into a title challenge for one season. This current method is improving our onfield performance as well as our budget, whilst the extravaganza of 05/06 did not last long and is still being paid for.

I totally agree on your assessment of JJ. The reason we did well in that season was total surprise and the magnitude of the surprise. I firmly believe Vlad in his assessment of the demise of that group was purely down to the weegie teams and their media cronies intervention. Burley had to go because if he didn't then a whole load of crap was about to be published about him and its no mistake that the man who came in to replace him had the background and history he did. The steady hand of JJ is what was required at Hearts but he won't challenge the domination of the weegies. He may nick a cup for his efforts but the way the whole of scottish football is set up and the influence the two bigots have is very difficult to breakdown. If you try then they will go through your life and find anyway to upset what you are doing. They guys will stop at nothing to upend each other and dealing with each other has taught them a thing or two. Imagine dealing with the both of them and not just one

 

The years afterwards and the way Vlad has conducted himself tells me that he wants folk at hearts that have no contact with the weegies or no affiliation. IMO Webster for some reason didn't get on with rangers and thats why he has returned.