Gordon Brown getting slaughtered over NI

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Any sign of any policies from Dave and the boys yet?

 

I suspect we'll see 4 weeks of Dave & Gideon trying to keep the focus on Brown in case anyone asks any pertinent questions.

 

THIS.

 

Keep the focus on Brown and we'll sneak in through the back door. Bet that ****** who was shouting at Brown today about his sons school or some pish is enjoying his nice wee brown envelope of cash from 'Just call me Dave' and the gang. Wish someone would ram that bike up his erse.

 

Brown really is looking like a clown at the moment though.

[Randle P McMurphy]

can't believe everyone is making such a fuss about Northern Ireland

[I P Knightley]

a self-obsessed, obstinate, idiot

 

 

When they refuse to address the question put to them, you know they're cacking themselves.

 

 

 

Gordon Brown is right when he says the Tories are deceiving people over NI. No matter who wins the election, taxes will have to rise. At least NI is a progressive tax - you only pay if you are working and the amount you pay depends on how much you earn.

If, as seems likely, the Tories raise VAT then everyone pays, whether you are working or are a pensioner, and everyone pays the same, whether you are a pensioner or a millionaire. What's fair about that?

I know who I will be voting for - Labour for a fairer society.

 

You're talking about a wealth tax there - surely that's what you're after? Do your shopping at LIDL, you pay less tax than if you do your shopping at Waitrose. Buy yourself a secondhand car, you pay not tax; buy yourself a new Jag & in goes the tax.

 

Sounds fair to me.

 

Explain why you think it's when you're earning that it's fair to pay tax and not when you use the money?

 

 

 

 

Your comment is correct about taxes having to rise alongside major cuts in spending. Brown is havering though when he claims a cancelled tax rise (not a tax cut) takes ?6bn out of the economy.

 

Can anyone give the muppet an Economics textbook? A tax rise does not put money into the economy!

 

It does under a Labour government when roughly half of the jobs in the UK are paid for directly out of the public purse. Raise taxes = more wages to pay in public sector jobs.

[Danny Wilde]

Even the inept Osborne and Tory strategists were easily able to let Brown/Labour lead themselves into this tax elephant trap. Its Labours own stupid fault.

 

Firstly - as they have done so often - the NI increase was scheduled to kick in post-election. Most punters (rightly or wrongly) hadn't even noticed it was on the radar. Its been Labour strategy to introduce taxation by stealth in this way, and the Tories put it right back ON the radar.

 

Secondly - whether its individual indignation about tax, or that coming from employers - governments just do not get themselves elected by introducing tax increases. The Tories are kicking into a wide open goal on this one - or rather a Labour own-goal.

 

Thirdly - Browns clumsy decription of business leaders as being "deceived", smacks of condescention and arrogance. For a man who lost the UK ?5billion by selling UK gold reserves at the bottom of the market, his claim to possess superior economic knowledge to business people who have created rather than squandered wealth ... is ill-judged to say the least.

 

Osborne and crew are shooting fish in a barrel on this one, and with Browns reputation for gaffes likely to lead to more such debacles over the coming weeks, then this election is only going to end up with one outcome. A Cameron win, like it or not.

 

Although as has been mentioned above, its probably a bad election to win !

[High Roller]

Gordon Brown is right when he says the Tories are deceiving people over NI. No matter who wins the election, taxes will have to rise. At least NI is a progressive tax - you only pay if you are working and the amount you pay depends on how much you earn.

If, as seems likely, the Tories raise VAT then everyone pays, whether you are working or are a pensioner, and everyone pays the same, whether you are a pensioner or a millionaire. What's fair about that?

I know who I will be voting for - Labour for a fairer society.

 

Eh.............no

 

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article7003694.ece

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/may/08/poverty-equality-britain-incomes-poor

[jambos are go!]

A final thought for the day. The respected and independent OECD has predicted that the UK is set to out perform nearly all other countries in terms of economic growth. Brown seems to be getting something right.

[JamboAl]

I don't think I've ever read so much claptrap than from these Tory apologists.

 

Firstly let me say that the planned NI rises don't start for another year ie 2011. By that time the recovery will be well on its way or, if not, there is time to realign.

 

Secondly let's look at some possible alternatives to it;

 

a)the employees part of it will only apply to those earning over ?20k which by and large is those who can reasonably/ well afford it. (Not the lower paid)

 

b)if the Tories change it to say Income Tax, their proposals (such as we can glean) mean any change would only be cosmetic.

 

c)if they changed it to say VAT it would hit everyone but pro rata the lower paid would be disproportianately hard hit. That is really what they want but this deceptive Tory leader is refusing to tell the electorate.

 

d) if they cut services, many jobs would go, services would suffer includin education, cancer patients would die because the Tories could/would not protect waiting times and if they did there would be no saving so they still have a gap to fill.

 

Forget Geoff Kilpatrick who is from Northern Ireland with its political history of Tories and Labour. What Geoff puts forward is what he thinks/hopes The Fake David will do rather than what (call me) Dave says what he will do. Geoff proffers his theories NOT Tory policies - because so far they have none.

 

Beware if you are sick, poor or unemployed - they think unemployment is a price worth paying. I hope it's not your job!

 

Incidentally the same business people who oppose the 1% business rise said the minimum wage would ruin Britain and also said that Labour's 2.5% temporary VAT reduction was worthless. If 2.5% overall is worthless how is 1% on those employees earning over ?20k a burden. Hopnesty is sadly lacking with the Tories desperate bid for power and the boy with the silver teaspoon in his mouth knows the only way he can do it is by denegrating Labour/Brown rather than proving the worth of his own policies (he doesn't really have any).

[Danny Wilde]

Economic predictions are 10 a penny, only time will tell.

 

Any catchup would be a relative one to other major economies in the short term. If I'm the last out of the traps, get outrun by 10 seconds per lap for 3 laps ... and then outrun the leader by 5 seconds in the 4th, then sure I'm doing better than him... In that lap ! But I still come in last - and badly.

 

A final thought for the day. The respected and independent OECD has predicted that the UK is set to out perform nearly all other countries in terms of economic growth. Brown seems to be getting something right.

[jambos are go!]

Economic predictions are 10 a penny, only time will tell.

 

Any catchup would be a relative one to other major economies in the short term. If I'm the last out of the traps, get outrun by 10 seconds per lap for 3 laps ... and then outrun the leader by 5 seconds in the 4th, then sure I'm doing better than him... In that lap ! But I still come in last - and badly.

 

 

 

So we should listen to you rather than the OECD. We should also listen to the Business Men who control budgets that are miniscule in comparison to HMG. You suggest economic forecasts are ten a penny though. What are really much less than ten a penny are folk like Brown who can steer the world economy away from another depression. Thats now a fact not a forecast. Goodnight.

[Danny Wilde]

Merely observing that forecasts come and go, can be wrong or right. Put your mortgage on the OECD forecast since you're so certain of it yourself. Last summer they forecast "UK to shrink 4.3% this year and stay flat in 2010". If they were wrong then about 2010, they can be as wrong the other way in their latest outlook. The world economy is still volatile and this debt-ridden nation doesn't have any reserves left, or anyone who'll lend to us.

 

HMG budgets .. don't make me laugh. Capital expenditure and project management is abysmal in the public sector. What takes these projects to a conclusion is not HMG's abilities ... its the public purse that bales them out so that things get done eventually, late and over budget. Holyrood parliament and the trams are horrendous recent examples of that here. The Olympics and the Commonwealth games will see more taxpayer money p|ssed away by HMG's complete inability to keep projects to budget. IT projects in the health and defence sectors that cost billions and don't deliver ... PFI projects that we'll pay over the odds for over decades.... Don't make me laugh.

 

Steered away from a depression indeed ? Tell me that when the fat lady really has sung her last song in this economic tragic-opera ... This country is not out of the woods yet, not by a long long way.

 

 

Economic predictions are 10 a penny, only time will tell.

 

Any catchup would be a relative one to other major economies in the short term. If I'm the last out of the traps, get outrun by 10 seconds per lap for 3 laps ... and then outrun the leader by 5 seconds in the 4th, then sure I'm doing better than him... In that lap ! But I still come in last - and badly.

 

So we should listen to you rather than the OECD. We should also listen to the Business Men who control budgets that are miniscule in comparison to HMG. You suggest economic forecasts are ten a penny though. What are really much less than ten a penny are folk like Brown who can steer the world economy away from another depression. Thats now a fact not a forecast. Goodnight.

[Jambo, Goodbye]

What puts money into an economy is private or public sector investment that produces a value-add at the end via a multiplier effect or profit creation.

 

This tax rise is simply to maintain current spending.

 

Which would go towards protecting jobs and thus continuing to put money into the economy as you rightfully said.

 

Just a scenario that's possible, not raising taxes might be equally or even more harmful to the economy if spending is cut instead

ie. Less teachers, Police or Nurses

 

If we have to lose jobs somewhere i'd rather it was in the business sector, a lot have made cuts already to maximise income, for some this will dent their income but not quite lead to job losses...

Next for example made over half a billion even in current financial climate, but did they employ or cut hours? (After the xmas period) well it was the latter which sums up some larger businesses, only in it for themselves.

 

Like I say, just a scenario I could see, maybe it's Broon's logic?

[Craig Gordons Gloves]

As I explained, certain posters are way too long winded so I get bored with them. And anyway, I'm not the one standing for PM.

 

Thank Christ for that, any statement or debate over a question long would be ignored. You're quite the arrogant **** really aren't you?

 

[jambos are go!]

Merely observing that forecasts come and go, can be wrong or right. Put your mortgage on the OECD forecast since you're so certain of it yourself. Last summer they forecast "UK to shrink 4.3% this year and stay flat in 2010". If they were wrong then about 2010, they can be as wrong the other way in their latest outlook. The world economy is still volatile and this debt-ridden nation doesn't have any reserves left, or anyone who'll lend to us.

 

HMG budgets .. don't make me laugh. Capital expenditure and project management is abysmal in the public sector. What takes these projects to a conclusion is not HMG's abilities ... its the public purse that bales them out so that things get done eventually, late and over budget. Holyrood parliament and the trams are horrendous recent examples of that here. The Olympics and the Commonwealth games will see more taxpayer money p|ssed away by HMG's complete inability to keep projects to budget. IT projects in the health and defence sectors that cost billions and don't deliver ... PFI projects that we'll pay over the odds for over decades.... Don't make me laugh.

 

Steered away from a depression indeed ? Tell me that when the fat lady really has sung her last song in this economic tragic-opera ... This country is not out of the woods yet, not by a long long way.

 

 

Economic predictions are 10 a penny, only time will tell.

 

Any catchup would be a relative one to other major economies in the short term. If I'm the last out of the traps, get outrun by 10 seconds per lap for 3 laps ... and then outrun the leader by 5 seconds in the 4th, then sure I'm doing better than him... In that lap ! But I still come in last - and badly.

 

So we should listen to you rather than the OECD. We should also listen to the Business Men who control budgets that are miniscule in comparison to HMG. You suggest economic forecasts are ten a penny though. What are really much less than ten a penny are folk like Brown who can steer the world economy away from another depression. Thats now a fact not a forecast. Goodnight

I highlighted the OECD report to inform the debate and redress the prominence given to negative info so often paraded on here. I see nothing wrong with that. BTW I dont have a mortgage - I paid it off during all these years of growth and economic prosperity Labour delivered. Or did I imagine that.

 

Public Finance is about a lot more than large capital projects if you take the time to look into it. And most large scale capital projects are delivered by private sector companies who must share responsibility. The trams are an example. I agree with you that Project Management needs to be improved in the public sector but even more we need better lawyers to ensure that private sector companies dont wriggle out of their obligations when costs rise.

 

IT projects in the public sector hit problems and its in the media. The private sector hide theirs. And as for quality have you tried the systems offered by the highly profitable private sector utility companies!!!!

[The Mighty Thor]

Agree with Geoff, the victory cup in this election is really a poison chalice. If I were a Conservative - which I'm not - then the best long-term outcome would probably be a Labour win, propped up by the LibDems in a coalition that will fall apart when the IMF and the markets call time on it in 6-12-18 months time. Conservative landslide on the back of that and 2 or 3 terms of unfettered Conservative rule as Labour rips itself to shreds and the country swallows a long period of Conservative economic doctrine. And for which Labour will take all the root-cause blame - mostly justifiably - for many years to come.

 

I'm not sure how old you are bud but i can remember and lived through the majority of the last 2-3 terms of unfettered Conservative economic doctrine. 18 years of it for which the bill arrived in 2008 and we'll all be paying for it for the next 10 years or so.

 

It should be remembered that there's nothing left to sell off to cover the black holes in Gideon's plans, no British Gas, no British telecom, nada.

 

Personally the thought of Dave 'black Wednesday' Cameron & Osborne (every voter should read how he would have handled the 2008/9 economic crisis) handling an economic recovery fills me with absolute dread.

[Danny Wilde]

49 mate. My first votes were in the 1979 devolution referendum and the general election of that year.

 

IMO Blair/Brown/New Labour picked up where the tories left off by focusing largely on middle class concerns.

 

 

I'm not sure how old you are bud but i can remember and lived through the majority of the last 2-3 terms of unfettered Conservative economic doctrine. 18 years of it for which the bill arrived in 2008 and we'll all be paying for it for the next 10 years or so.

 

It should be remembered that there's nothing left to sell off to cover the black holes in Gideon's plans, no British Gas, no British telecom, nada.

 

Personally the thought of Dave 'black Wednesday' Cameron & Osborne (every voter should read how he would have handled the 2008/9 economic crisis) handling an economic recovery fills me with absolute dread.

[The Mighty Thor]

49 mate. My first votes were in the 1979 devolution referendum and the general election of that year.

 

IMO Blair/Brown/New Labour picked up where the tories left off by focusing largely on middle class concerns.

 

Fair enough bud.

 

There's tough times ahead and anyone that thinks any of the 3 main parties aren't going to have to gather in the reins is fooling themselves.

 

Personally i think Cameron & Osborne are trying a huge con trick and the business leaders that are coming out in support are nothing more than a self interest group.

 

I'd be interested to hear how many of those businesses have in place huge recruitment programmes that will be effected by this 'tax on new jobs'? I reckon none of them.

[Boris]

I agree with Geoff, and I agree with you. Good post. I don't think we are allowed a hung parliament for such a long length as 18 months, I thought it was 6 months before another election had to be called shortly after. No doubt someone will correct me if wrong.

 

 

Sorry to be the one to break the news Kitster, but you are wrong.

 

There is no law that prevents a hung parliament running the course of the elected period i.e. 5 years.

 

In all probability if there were to be a hung parliament then some form of coalition could form the government e.g. Lib Dems & Labour. As I understand it, due to Brown being the incumbent PM he is entitled to first dibs on creating a coalition, even if the Tories win more seats than Labour.

 

If Labour couldn't come to an agreement, then the Tories could try to find one or they could, as the single largest party, run a minority administration a la the SNP at Holyrood.

 

Personally, I doubt that there will be a hung parliament - it's all media hype to try to "sex up" a rather anodyne political landscape.

 

On the NI debate and all these business types queing up to slate the NI rise, I thought Simon Schama made a pretty good point on QT last night when he said why should we put any more emphasis on what they say, given that business has been as (ir)responsible for the recent recession. "What extra moral authority do they have to adjudicate?" Go History-Man!

 

[tcjambo]

Quite simply Brown as chancellor robbed tomorrow to pay for today, or at least, that's what I thought at the time. Now that we've arrived in 2010 he effectively robbed tomorrow to pay for the past and we will be paying for his utter incompetence for many years to come. Labour's great skill lies in controlling the political agenda and it has been difficult for the Tories to break out of the sterile argument over cut later, cut now. We are all discussing the wrong issues. The major questions is do we snuff out the private sector further in an orgy of continuing incontinent spending or do we address the problem Brown has created and drastically reduce public spending and restore the public finances. I can't believe that so many people are still backing Gordon Clown but then he has created a vast client state.

 

BTW all the people that can come up with nothing better than than Cameron was born with a silver spoon and posh boy and all that crap are pathetic. Look at Tony Blair - Fettes, Harriet Hypocrite - Chelenham Ladies School and Alastair Darling - Loretto. and there are plenty more.

[rossthejambo]

After watching Dave on GMTV this morning I have come to the conclusion that he doesn't have the slightest clue what he's going to do if he gets to be PM.

 

He constantly talks about cutting ?6bn of "waste" but doesn't mention where it comes from. He talks about cutting MP's wages (although a good idea) which will do absolutely **** all to help the economy.

 

As someone else has already said all the Tories are doing are kicking Brown when he's down (thought I'd add a bit of poetry in here ) and it seems to be working.

 

Personally I'd rather Labour got back in (if it's to be between the 2 of them), at least they seem to have some policies and they seem to be slowly getting our economy back on track.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

If its peanuts why all the fuss. BTW do I not recall you agreeing that the deficit would be cut on another of these threads? And agreeing that Browns policies were broadly right?

 

It is peanuts in relative terms. It is crap economics given the situation the UK is currently in but Labour have fallen into a Tory political trap. As for Brown, no argument with him criticising this Tory ruse, which is what it is. My issue is his argument that it is taking money out of the economy. It is no such thing! By the same argument, if Labour hadn't reversed the VAT cut on 1 January 2010, that would have taken ?14bn 'out' of the economy which, er, it wouldn't have and kind of shows Brown doesn't know what he's talking about when he is talking about 'fiscal stimulus' (the real stimulus to the UK economy was the monetary stimulus of ?200bn of funny money from the Bank of England)

 

I don't think I've ever read so much claptrap than from these Tory apologists.

 

Please identify the Tory apologists.

Firstly let me say that the planned NI rises don't start for another year ie 2011. By that time the recovery will be well on its way or, if not, there is time to realign.

 

Maybe. It's difficult to square the growth rates being used without inflation coming into the equation because real growth isn't exactly obvious, but I digress - the NI rise is in 2011. Quite why Labour are making such an issue of it, therefore is beyond me.

 

Secondly let's look at some possible alternatives to it;

 

a)the employees part of it will only apply to those earning over ?20k which by and large is those who can reasonably/ well afford it. (Not the lower paid)

 

b)if the Tories change it to say Income Tax, their proposals (such as we can glean) mean any change would only be cosmetic.

 

c)if they changed it to say VAT it would hit everyone but pro rata the lower paid would be disproportianately hard hit. That is really what they want but this deceptive Tory leader is refusing to tell the electorate.

 

d) if they cut services, many jobs would go, services would suffer includin education, cancer patients would die because the Tories could/would not protect waiting times and if they did there would be no saving so they still have a gap to fill.

 

(a) It also applies to employers as well, irrespective of their profitability. The biggest employer in the country is in the public sector, the NHS. It will have an extra ?200M liability to meet out of its funds. How do you think they will cover that? A bigger share of the cake which isn't going to grow as all the parties admit?

 

( b )True, but then you know my argument on NI anyway.

 

? I think no matter who wins, the VAT rate will go up. While VAT is relatively regressive, so are excise duties. There is also a philosophical argument supporting more consumption taxes though when 70% of the UK economy is made up of consumption, part of the reason for the mess now. A push towards savings and investment would be beneficial in the longer run. No one wants a tax hike but I think this is where it will hit.

 

(d) Newsflash - many jobs in the public sector will go anyway. Darling himself has said that the next government of whatever hue will have to implement far more severe cuts than Margaret Thatcher ever did. No one is being honest about this, even the blessed Vince Cable.

 

Forget Geoff Kilpatrick who is from Northern Ireland with its political history of Tories and Labour. What Geoff puts forward is what he thinks/hopes The Fake David will do rather than what (call me) Dave says what he will do. Geoff proffers his theories NOT Tory policies - because so far they have none.

 

Er, what are you getting at here? That because I'm from Northern Ireland it colours my political view? And I espouse my theories? Last I looked this was a message board for putting forward people's own views. What a radical idea!

 

I'm not a politician, nor am I a member of any political party. Why should I be a shill for the Tories, Labour or anyone else?

 

Beware if you are sick, poor or unemployed - they think unemployment is a price worth paying. I hope it's not your job!

 

Beware if you have a public sector job - the worst is yet to come no matter who wins

 

Incidentally the same business people who oppose the 1% business rise said the minimum wage would ruin Britain and also said that Labour's 2.5% temporary VAT reduction was worthless. If 2.5% overall is worthless how is 1% on those employees earning over ?20k a burden. Hopnesty is sadly lacking with the Tories desperate bid for power and the boy with the silver teaspoon in his mouth knows the only way he can do it is by denegrating Labour/Brown rather than proving the worth of his own policies (he doesn't really have any).

 

See my point on employers NI. That's the real issue, except it hasn't been dressed up that way.

 

 

 

Which would go towards protecting jobs and thus continuing to put money into the economy as you rightfully said.

 

Just a scenario that's possible, not raising taxes might be equally or even more harmful to the economy if spending is cut instead

ie. Less teachers, Police or Nurses

 

If we have to lose jobs somewhere i'd rather it was in the business sector, a lot have made cuts already to maximise income, for some this will dent their income but not quite lead to job losses...

Next for example made over half a billion even in current financial climate, but did they employ or cut hours? (After the xmas period) well it was the latter which sums up some larger businesses, only in it for themselves.

 

Like I say, just a scenario I could see, maybe it's Broon's logic?

 

Which would be fair enough if the public sector wasn't headed for over 50% of GDP.

 

You can't run an economy without creating wealth and the public sector is crowding out the private sector, as witnessed by the differentials in interest rates between base rates, gilt yields (the rate government borrows rate) and corporate bonds (the rate companies borrow at dependent on their credit worthiness) ; e.g. base rates are at 0.5% but corporate bonds can be 6% for example. If a company wants to borrow and invest, it needs to earn over and above that rate of return to make it worthwhile.

[Tynie b]

Brown took a total pounding today.

 

 

I never seen it either Pickyerse...But I don't have to post pretending I know what's going on coz My "Mate" started the tread!!

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

After watching Dave on GMTV this morning I have come to the conclusion that he doesn't have the slightest clue what he's going to do if he gets to be PM.

 

He constantly talks about cutting ?6bn of "waste" but doesn't mention where it comes from. He talks about cutting MP's wages (although a good idea) which will do absolutely **** all to help the economy.

 

As someone else has already said all the Tories are doing are kicking Brown when he's down (thought I'd add a bit of poetry in here ) and it seems to be working.

 

Personally I'd rather Labour got back in (if it's to be between the 2 of them), at least they seem to have some policies and they seem to be slowly getting our economy back on track.

 

Election campaigns are a waste of time for that reason. All the parties talk bollocks, in the belief that people will be swung in four weeks.

 

The truth is that no matter who wins, it'll be a pyrrhic victory as Danny said. If Labour win, they will be utterly destroyed between now and 2015, dependent on when the government falls (and if they bring the Lib Dumbs along, they'll be caught in the carnage). As for the Tories, the same applies although they will have some breathing space by blaming Crash in the initial stages.

[Danny Wilde]

I always expect the Tories to play tax games to get elected, its what they always do ... its one of their central "populist" strategies and business and the conservative media will always support them and give Labour a kicking on it. Its the way of the world.

 

Unfortunately I find Browns bonkers utopian fantasy of whats he's spinning as " a new age of prosperity" as utterly utterly ludicrous. We haven't even heard the first penny hit the bottom of the deep dark well that is the UK financial deficit. Head in the sand/airse pointing at the sky type stuff from Brown, and every bit as deceptive as the Tories..

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I always expect the Tories to play tax games to get elected, its what they always do ... its one of their central "populist" strategies and business and the conservative media will always support them and give Labour a kicking on it. Its the way of the world.

 

Unfortunately I find Browns bonkers utopian fantasy of whats he's spinning as " a new age of prosperity" as utterly utterly ludicrous. We haven't even heard the first penny hit the bottom of the deep dark well that is the UK financial deficit. Head in the sand/airse pointing at the sky type stuff from Brown, and every bit as deceptive as the Tories..

 

 

Indeed, as Ambrose Evans-Pritchard writes about in the Torygraph today

[Danny Wilde]

Grim Geoff, grim.

 

This is shaping up to be the most depressing election campaign of my lifetime. The political parties and to a great extent the UK population are colluding in a great big lie. An NI tweak here or there is immaterial. Politicians can't or won't adddress the full scale of the problems ahead (at least not in public) and Joe and Jean Bloggs are still quaffing Starbucks coffee at 3 quid a pop. Its the last days of the land of make believe until reality gets in the way from May 7th onwards.

 

Age of prosperity indded. The man should be certified.

 

Indeed, as Ambrose Evans-Pritchard writes about in the Torygraph today

[Tommy Wiseau]

What's led you to that conclusion?

 

 

Probably the pure unadulterated smarmy evil that emanates from his every fibre.

[Greenbank2]

What I don't understand is why they just don't come clean. I would have much more respect for Broon if he stood up and said "Business leaders - it was you and your ilk that got us into this mess. Your invention of snake oil 'financial products' lined your own pockets and sent the economy down the sewer. The people had to bail you out. Now it's payback time. The money has to come from somewhere. I'm taking it from NI. Sit down and shut up"

 

As for Call-me-Dave, my respect for him would be equally enhanced if he said "yep - it's payback time and those of you in the public sector - you wanted the perks of the private sector, now you've got them. If you're in a 'non-job', sharpen your pencils, coz you'll need them to sign-on. Oh and by the way, now that you have private sector conditions, you can have their pensions as well. Cancel the cruise."

[redm]

What I don't understand is why they just don't come clean. I would have much more respect for Broon if he stood up and said "Business leaders - it was you and your ilk that got us into this mess. Your invention of snake oil 'financial products' lined your own pockets and sent the economy down the sewer. The people had to bail you out. Now it's payback time. The money has to come from somewhere. I'm taking it from NI. Sit down and shut up"

 

As for Call-me-Dave, my respect for him would be equally enhanced if he said "yep - it's payback time and those of you in the public sector - you wanted the perks of the private sector, now you've got them. If you're in a 'non-job', sharpen your pencils, coz you'll need them to sign-on. Oh and by the way, now that you have private sector conditions, you can have their pensions as well. Cancel the cruise."

 

Now, if politics could be a little more like this I probably wouldn't have made the vow to ignore pretty much everything that either side of the debate has to say between now and May 6th. I can't stand the petty point scoring, the cringey attempts at witty put-downs and worst of all, the endless (and often pointless) discussion on policies which will bear no resemblance whatsoever to those developed and implemented once the election has been and gone.

 

However, the NI issue is a little different but my thoughts on it are pretty simple. Why oh why oh why would anyone be remotely surprised that business leaders would align themselves with a party criticising increases to NI? Furthermore, why on earth would anyone be surprised to hear of business leaders aligning themselves with the Tories? The press are reporting it as if it's the most damning incident to happen in recent weeks to impact upon Labour's popularity but I genuinely find it hard to get excited about something which is as certain as rainfall in April. I'm no expert in any way shape or form, but I am a pretty average voter I'd think - I will vote but I don't think of myself as being overly politically motivated and I really only pay attention to what's going on from time to time unless there's some sort of 'big news'.

 

Mind you, in saying that, after watching Question Time last night I had decided by midnight that I should really just vote Lib Dem because Ming is such a nice man and he kicked serious butt, so by that token my political views are probably less well entrenched than I think they are.

[shaun.lawson]

Why oh why oh why would anyone be remotely surprised that business leaders would align themselves with a party criticising increases to NI? Furthermore, why on earth would anyone be surprised to hear of business leaders aligning themselves with the Tories?

 

Mind you, in saying that, after watching Question Time last night I had decided by midnight that I should really just vote Lib Dem because Ming is such a nice man and he kicked serious butt, so by that token my political views are probably less well entrenched than I think they are.

 

Except that until lately, business leaders had aligned themselves with New Labour. Blair's success was predicated on the backing of the business community, because it proved his party had changed - and that support could only be maintained through a strong record on the economy. Now, that record has collapsed, and business leaders no longer trust Labour.

 

But yes: do vote Lib Dem. Their politics have always been closest to mine, and as a mate, I feel reasonably qualified to suggest they're rather close to yours too.

[Boris]

What I don't understand is why they just don't come clean. I would have much more respect for Broon if he stood up and said "Business leaders - it was you and your ilk that got us into this mess. Your invention of snake oil 'financial products' lined your own pockets and sent the economy down the sewer. The people had to bail you out. Now it's payback time. The money has to come from somewhere. I'm taking it from NI. Sit down and shut up"

 

As for Call-me-Dave, my respect for him would be equally enhanced if he said "yep - it's payback time and those of you in the public sector - you wanted the perks of the private sector, now you've got them. If you're in a 'non-job', sharpen your pencils, coz you'll need them to sign-on. Oh and by the way, now that you have private sector conditions, you can have their pensions as well. Cancel the cruise."

 

 

LOL - you think you can get a cruise on a Public Sector pension?

[redm]

Except that until lately, business leaders had aligned themselves with New Labour. Blair's success was predicated on the backing of the business community, because it proved his party had changed - and that support could only be maintained through a strong record on the economy. Now, that record has collapsed, and business leaders no longer trust Labour.

 

But yes: do vote Lib Dem. Their politics have always been closest to mine, and as a mate, I feel reasonably qualified to suggest they're rather close to yours too.

 

In all seriousness, if Ming was my MP I probably would but as he isn't...well...

 

As for the Labour/business leader backing issue, I don't honestly know how likely that is to affect the views of the average voter. Many might not have all that much faith in the current government but I'd think they might have even less faith in business leaders who have priorities which stretch, by and large, to anything that assists them in lining their own pockets. It could be a less sophisticated idea than many expressed on this thread (very interesting reading it makes too) but you have to wonder what the average joe on the street will make of all of this.

 

 

 

 

[Therapist]

Yet another bad day for Brown, with yet more senior business leaders signing the NI letter. Anyone with a modicum of self respect and decency would have resigned by now but he's so stubborn and desperate that he'll attempt to ignore it until the inevitable happens on the morning of 7 May.

 

I can't wait to see the back of the clown.

[shaun.lawson]

In all seriousness, if Ming was my MP I probably would but as he isn't...well...

 

As for the Labour/business leader backing issue, I don't honestly know how likely that is to affect the views of the average voter. Many might not have all that much faith in the current government but I'd think they might have even less faith in business leaders who have priorities which stretch, by and large, to anything that assists them in lining their own pockets. It could be a less sophisticated idea than many expressed on this thread (very interesting reading it makes too) but you have to wonder what the average joe on the street will make of all of this.

 

It's not the views of business leaders which decide how people vote - but more the general impression of whether a government can be trusted with the economy or not. If business leaders say it can, it naturally strengthens the government's argument that it knows what it's doing; but if they say it can't, after it's been in power for 13 years and presided over a dreadful recession, it'll just chime in with the perception among the public.

 

Average Joe tends to be pretty moderate and centrist in truth - meaning the Tories were heading for oblivion the moment they lost their reputation for economic competence in 1992. Sadly for Labour, they appear to have done the same.

[Therapist]

presided over a dreadful recession

 

They didn't just "preside over it", they caused it thanks to their ineffective regulatory regime - specifically the FSA, which they created. Still, no need to worry or rock the boat while the moolah was rolling into the Treasury, eh?

[Therapist]

What I don't understand is why they just don't come clean. I would have much more respect for Broon if he stood up and said "Business leaders - it was you and your ilk that got us into this mess. Your invention of snake oil 'financial products' lined your own pockets and sent the economy down the sewer. The people had to bail you out. Now it's payback time. The money has to come from somewhere. I'm taking it from NI. Sit down and shut up"

 

Brown has already shat in his own nest big time by accusing the business leaders of being duped by the Conservatives. More to the point, he can't accuse them of inventing the financial products because none of the signatories to the letter are bankers.

[Greenbank2]

Why do the press and those who share Call-me-Dave's beliefs, think that the NI issue is such a big one? Most people in this country do not employ anyone - and is it such a shock that those who do, when asked the question "would you rather have your hard-earned in Captain Darling's pocket or your own?"- Shokaroonie....choose their own? Doesn't make them bad people, but the dosh has to come from somewhere. The challenge for Dave is that he is trying to taint Broon with the brush of unnecessary taxation. IMO, he's made his point but it isn't sticking.

 

Those who believe that today was a bad day for Broon are a bit like them down Leith who believe their team play like Brazil. Deluded. I have no allegiance to Dave or Broon, but this race will be closer than many think.

[redm]

It's not the views of business leaders which decide how people vote - but more the general impression of whether a government can be trusted with the economy or not. If business leaders say it can, it naturally strengthens the government's argument that it knows what it's doing; but if they say it can't, after it's been in power for 13 years and presided over a dreadful recession, it'll just chime in with the perception among the public.

 

Average Joe tends to be pretty moderate and centrist in truth - meaning the Tories were heading for oblivion the moment they lost their reputation for economic competence in 1992. Sadly for Labour, they appear to have done the same.

 

Maybe under normal circumstances this might be true but people are surely more likely to be distrustful of business leaders and their views on mending the economy than they might normally be? I noticed that you said 'business community' and that made me smile Shaun, it almost suggests that this group is representative of something more localised and grounded than it really is. It's big business, it's big money, it's big money people.

 

Is the recession a stick with which the current government can be beaten? I don't know if it is. If anything, the recovery process could be packaged up as a bit of a feather in the cap.

[shaun.lawson]

They didn't just "preside over it", they caused it thanks to their ineffective regulatory regime - specifically the FSA, which they created. Still, no need to worry or rock the boat while the moolah was rolling into the Treasury, eh?

 

Sorry T - you're overplaying the argument, as you know. The government are greatly responsible for what happened; but do you think it's a coincidence that the US and Western Europe also fell into recession at precisely the same time? Please.

[Therapist]

he's made his point but it isn't sticking.

 

It most certainly is sticking.

 

The electorate is faced with a choice. Who's more likely to be right; Brown or the collective wisdom of 60+ businessmen who employ millions of people?. And the great thing about the NI situation is that it will be mentioned every day as more and more businessmen add their names to the open letter.

 

Bye bye Gordon....

[shaun.lawson]

Maybe under normal circumstances this might be true but people are surely more likely to be distrustful of business leaders and their views on mending the economy than they might normally be? I noticed that you said 'business community' and that made me smile Shaun, it almost suggests that this group is representative of something more localised and grounded than it really is. It's big business, it's big money, it's big money people.

 

Is the recession a stick with which the current government can be beaten? I don't know if it is. If anything, the recovery process could be packaged up as a bit of a feather in the cap.

 

I think it is to an extent - particularly as the government were quite happy taking all the credit for economic prosperity they inherited, which existed across the whole of the West for many years; only to immediately blame "global causes" when the **** hit the fan! Can't have it both ways I'm afraid.

 

On the business community: I do know where you're coming from, and certainly, when I see CBI leaders moaning about the minimum wage, or defending huge bonuses, it gets me very angry. But it's a serious mistake to view most business leaders as some sort of enemy: they're not. Their ingenuity and entrepreneurship creates jobs and wealth which benefits all of us; and higher taxes makes it more difficult for them to do so. Also, many business leaders will have taken huge risks at one point or another in order to get to the top and achieve such success: some will have risked everything. Their expertise has to be listened to at times; because many of them have been there, seen it and done it.

[Therapist]

The government are greatly responsible for what happened; but do you think it's a coincidence that the US and Western Europe also fell into recession at precisely the same time? Please.

 

The government should have taken action, either unilaterally or in conjunction with their counterparts in other countries. Brown claims he is a master of financial matters, but he either didn't spot this coming (many commentators/analysts did, including Morgan Stanley) or ignored it so as not to rock the SS Tax Revenue boat.

[Greenbank2]

Maybe because technically the PM is now their boss?

 

I get the political mileage in this argument, but the reality is that these guys are motivated by what's good for their businesses. And that may not be the same as what's good for the rest of us. No issue with this - only with those that would have us believe otherwise. And on the financial services - I don't restrict that bankers. How many of the bosses who signed run companies that make money from "financial products" (snake oil).

 

More to the point, he can't accuse them of inventing the financial products because none of the signatories to the letter are bankers.

[Boris]

It most certainly is sticking.

 

The electorate is faced with a choice. Who's more likely to be right; Brown or the collective wisdom of 60+ businessmen who employ millions of people?. And the great thing about the NI situation is that it will be mentioned every day as more and more businessmen add their names to the open letter.

 

Bye bye Gordon....

 

Yeah, because those businessmen have the welfare of "the people" at heart, right enough...

 

I stand by Simon Schama's comments made on QT last night.

[The Vulture]

Yeah, because those businessmen have the welfare of "the people" at heart, right enough...

 

I stand by Simon Schama's comments made on QT last night.

 

What did Schama say Boris ?

[Therapist]

Yeah, because those businessmen have the welfare of "the people" at heart, right enough...

 

They do. They want to help them out by employing them. Brown's stealth tax proposition is a disincentive for them to take people on and expand the business, with all the benefits this would have for the economy.

 

You need to butt out of this debate Boris as it's clear you only understand Soviet style "command" economics and are blinkered by socialist dogma. Apart from that, you're not a bad poster.

[shaun.lawson]

The government should have taken action, either unilaterally or in conjunction with their counterparts in other countries. Brown claims he is a master of financial matters, but he either didn't spot this coming (many commentators/analysts did, including Morgan Stanley) or ignored it so as not to rock the SS Tax Revenue boat.

 

If Morgan Stanley saw it coming, pity they didn't pass the warning on to Lehman Brothers, isn't it? Incidentally, you know who I blame more than anyone else? Bill Clinton. His administration's ludicrous sub-prime policies and legislation started all this.

[Glamorgan Jambo]

Why do the press and those who share Call-me-Dave's beliefs, think that the NI issue is such a big one? Most people in this country do not employ anyone -

 

Because it adds to the cost of employing someone, is a tax on employment (for employers) rather than income, and as the full implications are opaque to the general public is something that will have far reaching and unintended consequences. Its a bit like the decision taken by GB to abolish tax credits on dividend income (for pension funds) - 12 years on the 'funded' final salary pension essentially no longer exists. 10 years after this jobs tax gets implemented they'll be a lot of people on benefits because their skills are no longer affordable (in this country).

[redm]

I think it is to an extent - particularly as the government were quite happy taking all the credit for economic prosperity they inherited, which existed across the whole of the West for many years; only to immediately blame "global causes" when the **** hit the fan! Can't have it both ways I'm afraid.

 

On the business community: I do know where you're coming from, and certainly, when I see CBI leaders moaning about the minimum wage, or defending huge bonuses, it gets me very angry. But it's a serious mistake to view most business leaders as some sort of enemy: they're not. Their ingenuity and entrepreneurship creates jobs and wealth which benefits all of us; and higher taxes makes it more difficult for them to do so. Also, many business leaders will have taken huge risks at one point or another in order to get to the top and achieve such success: some will have risked everything. Their expertise has to be listened to at times; because many of them have been there, seen it and done it.

 

I certainly don't view them as the enemy, but I am conscious of the mixed bag of motivations that drive their decision-making. Especially the decisions that lead to making political associations.

[Therapist]

If Morgan Stanley saw it coming, pity they didn't pass the warning on to Lehman Brothers, isn't it?

 

They were very public about the warning. All the key indicators of their core markets model predicted a stock market crash and all the associated grief that comes with it.

[shaun.lawson]

They were very public about the warning. All the key indicators of their core markets model predicted a stock market crash and all the associated grief that comes with it.

 

How long before September 2008 did their indicators predict this?