Swiss vote to ban minarets

[Therapist]

And that differs from his other threads/posts in what way exactly?

 

100 posts on this thread would suggest I have put forward a topic that people are interested in debating.

[redjambo]

100 posts on this thread would suggest I have put forward a topic that people are interested in debating.

 

Do you know, I agree. And the ensuing debate has been very interesting (whether or not it matches how you really feel about the situation ). Good luck with your attempts to have the country convert to Christian architecture.

[topcat]

The wierd things about these periodic posts on Kickback expressing such disquiet about Shariah law being applied in the UK is that Kickback is primarily a forum for the discussion of football. A football match itself is twenty two people placing themselves under the laws, restrictions and authourity of a body outside the state, accepting the sanctions and rulings of it's appointed representatives (even though they're sometimes really dubious).

 

If any forum should be able to readily see that a set of people can legitimately and voluntarilly adopt a set of rules that wouldn't apply to other areas of society this one should.

 

Other sports involve living temporarilly under a set of rules even more foreign to our everyday reality Cage fighting being probably the most extreme example and it's not just during competition. Sporting authorities regularly enforce drug testing, and even gender testing, regimes that would be seen as gross violation of an individuals basic rights if they were done be a state.

[felix]

Like those who feel religion and law shouldn't mix there are those who feel muslim architecture is inappropriate for western society, not because of any slant against muslims , but because there's a strong argument in any culture for maintaining the vernacular of a place, region or country. Our country is a copy of ancient Greece and Rome because sixteenth century artists & noblemen took the Grand Tour and copied what they saw. It's part of our culture; the west has always aspired to the classical world for art, language and architecture. It's nothing to do with christian architecture - the styles just happened to be build by societies who worshipped christ.

If Japanese or Buddhist styles were planned for Princes St. for example, it's the same issue. Sure there's a place for different styles in the UK (there's a Taj Mahal inspired pavilion in Brighton) but a degree of control needs to be in place otherwise our cities end up looking like Disneyland or Las Vegas.

 

 

The second problem some may have with muslim architecture is, unlike any other form, it's the product of a religion, rather than a country - unlike say Roman or Greek styles, which are entirely influenced by nations and an empire, and in many cases by maths and astronomy.

 

The minaret itself has only one function - it's a religious symbol providing a call to prayer. No -one's planning to ban islamic architecture or even tighten immigration control ! Placing a ban on minarets is a bit draconian (Swiss planners can easily control what goes up in the cantons) but the implications behind the proposed ban are what makes this an interesting story and one not dissimilar to the French headscarf ban, which polarised opinion and effectively banned all religious symbolism in schools. Something to be applaude imho.

Come to think on it, banning religious symbolism throughout society could also have it's merits.

[redjambo]

Like those who feel religion and law shouldn't mix there are those who feel muslim architecture is inappropriate for western society, not because of any slant against muslims , but because there's a strong argument in any culture for maintaining the vernacular of a place, region or country. Our country is a copy of ancient Greece and Rome because sixteenth century artists & noblemen took the Grand Tour and copied what they saw. It's part of our culture; the west has always aspired to the classical world for art, language and architecture. It's nothing to do with christian architecture - the styles just happened to be build by societies who worshipped christ.

If Japanese or Buddhist styles were planned for Princes St. for example, it's the same issue. Sure there's a place for different styles in the UK (there's a Taj Mahal inspired pavilion in Brighton) but a degree of control needs to be in place otherwise our cities end up looking like Disneyland or Las Vegas.

 

 

The second problem some may have with muslim architecture is, unlike any other form, it's the product of a religion, rather than a country - unlike say Roman or Greek styles, which are entirely influenced by nations and an empire, and in many cases by maths and astronomy.

 

The minaret itself has only one function - it's a religious symbol providing a call to prayer. No -one's planning to ban islamic architecture or even tighten immigration control ! Placing a ban on minarets is a bit draconian (Swiss planners can easily control what goes up in the cantons) but the implications behind the proposed ban are what makes this an interesting story and one not dissimilar to the French headscarf ban, which polarised opinion and effectively banned all religious symbolism in schools. Something to be applaude imho.

Come to think on it, banning religious symbolism throughout society could also have it's merits.

 

Indeed, because the Romans and Greeks did not have Gods, nor did they design their temples to worship them.

[felix]

Indeed, because the Romans and Greeks did not have Gods, nor did they design their temples to worship them.

 

Of course they had gods and built temples to worship them but the architectural styles they invented, were based on mathematical proportion and often nature whereas muslim architecture is guided by the koran which forbade the representation of human, animal and other natural forms, not just in architecture, but in art.

[2NaFish]

Of course they had gods and built temples to worship them but the architectural styles they invented, were based on mathematical proportion and often nature whereas muslim architecture is guided by the koran which forbade the representation of human, animal and other natural forms, not just in architecture, but in art.

 

To take just one example, Pythagoreanism was a mixture of both mathematics and religion. Pythagoras was a believer in the transmigration of souls and also liked right angled triangles. His teachings combined the two. As such, Roman and Greek architecture derives from religion.

[redjambo]

Of course they had gods and built temples to worship them but the architectural styles they invented, were based on mathematical proportion and often nature whereas muslim architecture is guided by the koran which forbade the representation of human, animal and other natural forms, not just in architecture, but in art.

 

Of course Greek (especially) and Roman architecture were influenced by religion. For the Greeks, for example, their Gods were intimately associated with the nature that surrounded them, including the stars above their heads, and their temples were built, and their architecture designed, to please and appease their Gods. How much more religious can you get?

 

On the other "side", the wide gamut of Muslim architecture also includes secular architecture which can contain representations of humans and animals. Is that what really annoys you, the lack of "humans and animals" in Muslim architecture?

[felix]

To take just one example, Pythagoreanism was a mixture of both mathematics and religion. Pythagoras was a believer in the transmigration of souls and also liked right angled triangles. His teachings combined the two. As such, Roman and Greek architecture derives from religion.

 

The Greek Corinthian order is based on an acanthus leaf, the Ionic on the proportions of a whelk shell, the Doric order is strictly controlled by mathematical proportion and the decorative friezes on temples were rarely religious, more commonly depicting battle scenes, or creatures of mythology.

 

The Greeks and Romans devised an architectural "kit of parts" and applied it to temples , libraries and colosseums . It doesn't derive from religion - that's why there's no such thing as a Christian Architectural style . There is however such a thing as Muslim Architecture, which reinforces the point that one is the product of a religion, the other is not.

[The Mighty Thor]

Is that what really annoys you, the lack of "humans and animals" in Muslim architecture?

 

you mean like the lack of a fat, dutch homosexual and a white charger?

 

you may be on to something.

[redjambo]

you mean like the lack of a fat, dutch homosexual and a white charger?

 

you may be on to something.

 

[topcat]

Of course they had gods and built temples to worship them but the architectural styles they invented, were based on mathematical proportion and often nature whereas muslim architecture is guided by the koran which forbade the representation of human, animal and other natural forms, not just in architecture, but in art.

 

That very taboo against depicting humans and animals is precisely the reason that Islamic architecture, both sacred and profane draws more inspiration from Mathematics and Astronomy rather than less.

 

And by the way there actually are several different national and regional styles of mosque architecture. The one on Potterrow draws heavily on Arabic Styles while the Glasgow one is more characteristically Pakistani.

 

The similarities between the various styles owe more to the shared history of Ottoman rule than any Koranic blue print.

 

It appears that you don't know very much about the subject you're pontificating on at all.

[topcat]

Incidentally I reckon a bloody big Pagoda would look really cool in the Gilded Balloon gap site on Cowgate and South Bridge. But that's just an opinion

[felix]

That very taboo against depicting humans and animals is precisely the reason that Islamic architecture, both sacred and profane draws more inspiration from Mathematics and Astronomy rather than less.

 

And by the way there actually are several different national and regional styles of mosque architecture. The one on Potterrow draws heavily on Arabic Styles while the Glasgow one is more characteristically Pakistani.

 

The similarities between the various styles owe more to the shared history of Ottoman rule than any Koranic blue print.

 

It appears that you don't know very much about the subject you're pontificating on at all.

 

It's a style dominated by religion and religious symbolism like no other and

this is the very reason the Swiss are upset.

Unless of course you know differently ?

[BlackJAC?]

I have no issue with minarets per se, however, they need to do away with those speakers and the erseholes that slaver their ****e to all n sundry via the speakers.

 

Bells i can hack, some eejit belting out his gibberish crap is going a little too far.

[felix]

Incidentally I reckon a bloody big Pagoda would look really cool in the Gilded Balloon gap site on Cowgate and South Bridge. But that's just an opinion

 

Thankfully, an opinion not shared by those with an eye for good design and cultural heritage

[Cabbie754]

So we better ban plain columns from buildings as they are from the Ancient Eygyptian religious style. We can'thave Doric, Ionic or Corinthian colums either as they come from an Ancient Greek religious style. Ah well that leaves us with Tuscan columns, we well just have to do with them. Wait, sorry, those are out too they come from the Ancient Pagan Roman style.There is Solomonic, they were used in the original St Peter's Basilica, but unfortuneately they were based on Jewish style so those are out too.

 

 

I can't really think of any 'Christian style' that we do use in architecture anymore. We really don't build buildings that look like Norman Cathederals anymore. But as the Normans were French, they would come under the heading of 'damn foreigners coming here puting up strange buildings that steal our very essence of Britishness'.

 

That was my point, Therapist didn't get it. Edinburgh is know as 'The Athens of the north' full of pagan architecture.

[Guest King]

I have no issue with minarets per se, however, they need to do away with those speakers and the erseholes that slaver their ****e to all n sundry via the speakers.

 

Bells i can hack, some eejit belting out his gibberish crap is going a little too far.

 

 

TBH, when in Turkey in the summer I quite liked hearing it.

[redjambo]

It's a style dominated by religion and religious symbolism like no other and

this is the very reason the Swiss are upset.

Unless of course you know differently ?

 

No, the Swiss are against the building of minarets because they stick up in the air, visible to those around, thus serving as a constant reminder to locals that there is a mosque there. If a minaret was just a small round knob on the mosque front door, there would be no problem. The Swiss are a very conservative folk and they want their villages and towns to look, well "Swiss". A small modest mosque is no problem but when you have a tall visible minaret then the village or town looks less Swiss. It's very simple psychology, nothing to do with the "religious symbolism" of a minaret per se (it's part of a blooming mosque, of course it has religious symbolism, as much as a steeple would have religious symbolism for a church), and all to do with the fact that the people there, very generally speaking, will put up with foreign influences as long as they're not too visible and detract from the "Swissness" of the country.

[davemclaren]

No, the Swiss are against the building of minarets because they stick up in the air, visible to those around, thus serving as a constant reminder to locals that there is a mosque there. If a minaret was just a small round knob on the mosque front door, there would be no problem. The Swiss are a very conservative folk and they want their villages and towns to look, well "Swiss". A small modest mosque is no problem but when you have a tall visible minaret then the village or town looks less Swiss. It's very simple psychology, nothing to do with the "religious symbolism" of a minaret per se (it's part of a blooming mosque, of course it has religious symbolism, as much as a steeple would have religious symbolism for a church), and all to do with the fact that the people there, very generally speaking, will put up with foreign influences as long as they're not too visible and detract from the "Swissness" of the country.

 

I preferred the Toblerone theory...

[redjambo]

I preferred the Toblerone theory...

 

It was tastier, I must admit.

[felix]

No, the Swiss are against the building of minarets because they stick up in the air, visible to those around, thus serving as a constant reminder to locals that there is a mosque there. If a minaret was just a small round knob on the mosque front door, there would be no problem. The Swiss are a very conservative folk and they want their villages and towns to look, well "Swiss". A small modest mosque is no problem but when you have a tall visible minaret then the village or town looks less Swiss. It's very simple psychology, nothing to do with the "religious symbolism" of a minaret per se (it's part of a blooming mosque, of course it has religious symbolism, as much as a steeple would have religious symbolism for a church), and all to do with the fact that the people there, very generally speaking, will put up with foreign influences as long as they're not too visible and detract from the "Swissness" of the country.

 

In other words, they're upset by the religious symbolism of a minaret.

Like I said.

[Denny Crane]

I have no issue with minarets per se, however, they need to do away with those speakers and the erseholes that slaver their ****e to all n sundry via the speakers.

 

Bells i can hack, some eejit belting out his gibberish crap is going a little too far.

 

The "gibberish crap" which you so eloquently call it, is the Muslim's 'call to prayer'.

[redjambo]

In other words, they're upset by the religious symbolism of a minaret.

Like I said.

 

Did you not read what I wrote, or did you just filter it out because it doesn't match your limited world-view?

 

A minaret has no particular religious symbolism, apart from the fact that it's part of and attached to a mosque. It is however deemed by many in Switzerland to detract from the Swissness and "tradition" (probably one of your favourite words - I hope it gave you a warm fuzzy feeling) of the skyline. If the Swiss were truly upset by "religious symbolism" then they wouldn't be allowing the building of mosques in the first place.

[The People's Chimp]

The "gibberish crap" which you so eloquently call it, is the Muslim's 'call to prayer'.

 

To be fair, my radio alarm clock got jammed on Awaz FM, and still is, and as liberal as I am, I've called it a whole lot worse....

[felix]

Did you not read what I wrote, or did you just filter it out because it doesn't match your limited world-view?

.

 

No really, I read what you wrote but I'd ask you to read the original article again.

 

The reason some people in Switzerland are upset, is because minarets are seen by the Swiss People's Party as "a sign of Islamisation".

 

A minaret has no particular religious symbolism,

.

That's an astounding comment.

I know you said "unless part of a mosque" but a minaret is the focal point for prayer and needn't be attached to a mosque.

"tradition" (probably one of your favourite words

Is there something wrong with "tradition" ? Don't you think some traditions are worth preserving ? Maybe Edinburgh should discard it's World Heritage "tradition" for example or is that a "limited world view" ?

[Sheriff Fatman]

Is there really that much difference between:

 

 

and

 

 

Apart from one being a bit more colourful.

[redjambo]

No really, I read what you wrote but I'd ask you to read the original article again.

 

The reason some people in Switzerland are upset, is because minarets are seen by the Swiss People's Party as "a sign of Islamisation".

 

 

That's an astounding comment.

I know you said "unless part of a mosque" but a minaret is the focal point for prayer and needn't be attached to a mosque.

 

Is there something wrong with "tradition" ? Don't you think some traditions are worth preserving ? Maybe Edinburgh should discard it's World Heritage "tradition" for example or is that a "limited world view" ?

 

Ok, let's see.

 

. The word "sign" is the crucial one here and indicates what the real problem is (and that's visibility).

 

. Thank you for the compliment. I like to astound, but not too often of course.

 

. I don't think it will ever be the case that minarets are used in Switzerland for their usual purpose (interestingly enough, they weren't originally used as the place from where the call to prayer was made). So their "religious functionality" in this sense wouldn't be seen as a threat.

 

. I love tradition, but for me it is to do with culture, not to do with the rejection of people who do not share my skin colour, religion, race, beliefs etc.

 

I think that is all. The Sandman's minaret is calling me to sleep so buenas noches se?or.

[felix]

Is there really that much difference between:

 

Wazir Khan Mosque Lahore

and

Guildhall Dunfermline

 

Apart from one being a bit more colourful.

 

Is it; one's a religious building and the other's not ?

[Denny Crane]

To be fair, my radio alarm clock got jammed on Awaz FM, and still is, and as liberal as I am, I've called it a whole lot worse....

 

Sounds like a scene from Family Guy where Peter buys a Palestinian alarm clock.

[The People's Chimp]

Sounds like a scene from Family Guy where Peter buys a Palestinian alarm clock.

 

I know the one you mean.

 

BOOM.

[Sheriff Fatman]

Is it; one's a religious building and the other's not ?

 

Ok, how about this one then.

 

[felix]

Ok, how about this one then.

Emmanual Church of Boston

 

Is it:

The Wazir Khan Mosque is only dedicated to Allah and Islam, and this is overtly reflected in it's architecture and symbolism whereas the Boston Church is open to the whole community and serves both Episcopalian Protestant and Jewish Congregations ?

[Sheriff Fatman]

Is it:

The Wazir Khan Mosque is only dedicated to Allah and Islam, and this is overtly reflected in it's architecture and symbolism whereas the Boston Church is open to the whole community and serves both Episcopalian Protestant and Jewish Congregations ?

 

So it is no the architectural style you have a problem with, it is the religion of the people who built it.

 

Thanks for clearing that one up.

[Guest King]

Ok, how about this one then.

 

 

That is a lovely piece of architecture in my opinion. They dont make them like that anymore

[felix]

So it is no the architectural style you have a problem with, it is the religion of the people who built it.

 

Thanks for clearing that one up.

 

No it's the genius loci I have a problem with.

 

One is a style which reflects western society whist the other reflects a style who's heritage and culture are from the East.

 

I hope that's clear.

[Sheriff Fatman]

No it's the genius loci I have a problem with.

 

One is a style which reflects western society whist the other reflects a style who's heritage and culture are from the East.

 

I hope that's clear.

 

So you don't have a problem with this one then:

 

[felix]

So you don't have a problem with this one then:

 

 

I've made several pilgramages to that one

 

Simple question for you.

Islamic architectural style; appropriate for an alpine village. Yes / No ?

[Sheriff Fatman]

I've made several pilgramages to that one

 

Simple question for you.

Islamic architectural style; appropriate for an alpine village. Yes / No ?

 

Nope Christian style, later converted into a mosque.

[felix]

Nope Christian style, later converted into a mosque.

 

Yes I know...I was trying to point out I've made a few pilgramages to the Hagia...If anyone's interested the blue mosque adjacent is much more impressive .

 

You might also be interested to note the "conversion" was done by the rampaging war-like muslim Sultan Mehmed .. who islamicised the church by adding features; including the minarets !

 

Now answer the question....Islamic architecture on an Alpine hillside:- Yes / No ?

[redjambo]

Yes I know...I was trying to point out I've made a few pilgramages to the Hagia...If anyone's interested the blue mosque adjacent is much more impressive .

 

You might also be interested to note the "conversion" was done by the rampaging war-like muslim Sultan Mehmed .. who islamicised the church by adding features; including 4 minarets !

 

Now answer the question....Islamic architecture on an Alpine hillside:- Yes / No ?

 

Yes, as long as it obeyed planning rules and fitted in well with the environment.

 

I thought you should know, if you haven't been there recently, that Switzerland is more than just Alpine hillsides. They actually have towns, and even cities, there now. Must be recent.

[wibble]

Oxymoron alert.

 

 

Poxy Moron alert

[topcat]

I reckon this one in Wangen bei Olten looks so Alpine it could have a Cuckoo coming out of it.

[Professor.Arturo]

If only our own spineless govt had the backbone of the Swiss

But there are still those who think we are being 'enriched' (including the far left of JKB)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1b9J8D3tOg

 

Its colonisation, not immigration

[The People's Chimp]

If only our own spineless govt had the backbone of the Swiss

But there are still those who think we are being 'enriched' (including the far left of JKB)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1b9J8D3tOg

 

Its colonisation, not immigration

 

Ah yes, the silent genocide of the anglo saxon race.

 

"We would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for that pesky griffin."

[davemclaren]

If only our own spineless govt had the backbone of the Swiss

But there are still those who think we are being 'enriched' (including the far left of JKB)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1b9J8D3tOg

 

Its colonisation, not immigration

 

Some really terrifying footage there.

 

What was the main point of that video?

[Professor.Arturo]

Some really terrifying footage there.

 

What was the main point of that video?

 

It amazes me you have to ask, or maybe you were just being sarcastic and it went over my head.

 

Or maybe you look forward to the day Westminster is run by third world invaders, who knows?

[davemclaren]

 

Or maybe you look forward to the day Westminster is run by third world invaders, who knows?

 

And when will that day be? I think you are over-reacting.

[The People's Chimp]

It amazes me you have to ask, or maybe you were just being sarcastic and it went over my head.

 

Or maybe you look forward to the day Westminster is run by third world invaders, who knows?

 

What I want to know is if, oh sorry, I mean when, they get into power whether they'll cut VAT on curries? That would probably win my vote. I like a good curry.

[Heaven98]

Or maybe you look forward to the day Westminster is run by third world invaders, who knows?

 

I'm all for free speech but you have to draw the line when you read tabloid stupidity like that.

 

To be honest, I'd rather the "third world invaders" were in charge rather than someone with your worldview.