"STUC calls on Celtic fans to fly flag for Palestine at Israeli match"

[Baird, King and Michael]

Do you honestly think that the Israel/Palestine situation will be ameliorated by this action? The fact is that it is more likely to entrench attitudes even further, on both sides. Now if the call had to been for the Celtic support to fly peace flags on behalf of all those on both sides who have suffered, and to represent the hope that one day a peaceful settlement will be reached, then that might have been a nice thoughtful constructive move.

 

Of course the situation won't be ameliorated by the STUC's actions. They don't claim that it will be. All they are asking to do is show solidarity with the peoples of Palestine. The protests at rugby and cricket grounds against apartheid did not bring down the South African regime but they made sure that the plight of black South Africans was not forgotten.

 

As for flying flags of peace for the suffering on both sides, I condemn acts of terrorism that end in the deaths of the innocent by whatever side. However are you honestly equating the deaths that have resulted from Palestinian terrorism in Israel with the 1,400 civilians killed last year at this time by an illegally occupying army?

[redjambo]

Of course the situation won't be ameliorated by the STUC's actions. They don't claim that it will be. All they are asking to do is show solidarity with the peoples of Palestine. The protests at rugby and cricket grounds against apartheid did not bring down the South African regime but they made sure that the plight of black South Africans was not forgotten.

 

As for flying flags of peace for the suffering on both sides, I condemn acts of terrorism that end in the deaths of the innocent by whatever side. However are you honestly equating the deaths that have resulted from Palestinian terrorism in Israel with the 1,400 civilians killed last year at this time by an illegally occupying army?

 

Where did I say that?

 

We are talking about a completely entrenched and complex situation here. If it's of any consolation, I would like to see a return to pre-1967 borders, with a guaranteed land route between the West Bank and Gaza, the removal of all Israeli settlements outwith their borders, and the recognition of Israel by the surrounding Arab states. It's going to be a very long drawn-out process though, a mixture of top-level politics, subtle economic pressure, and the will of the people involved. And it is the latter of these is the most important. No change will ever be effected unless the Israeli people decide they want it. What we don't want to be doing is forcing the Israelis further into their trenches (which, if anything, this ill-considered STUC plan will do), we want to be drawing them out. And I guarantee that the more political gestures we see like this, the more entrenched the situation will become.

[The Gasman]

The thread wasn't intended to be about the pros/cons, and relative evils of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in particular. That kind of stuff is for the shed.

 

I posted it here, because the STUC story encapsulated the extremely unwelcome, not to say naive, intrusion by the STUC ... of gesture politics into the game of football. Is Celtics fixture a football game (yes) or is it a vehicle for trade-union sponsored protest, in an area of geo-politics way beyond their remit (no, football clubs and fans should not be used in this way).

 

I echo Geoff's question above ... "Do we agree that a football match is an appropriate vehicle for ANY political cause?"

 

Here's an email I sent this morning.

 

To Grahame Smith

STUC General Secretary

 

Sir,

 

It was with incredulity that I read the STUC's call to ask Celtic fans to show Palestinian flags in their forthcoming game against Hapoel Tel Aviv. At a time when there are numerous initatives trying to get sectarianism and racism out of Scottish football, atempting to politicise a game with an apeal like this is at best misguided, if not actually actively encouraging the incitement of opposition supporters. Thankfully Hapoel Tel Aviv is a non-sectarian side (unlike Beltar Jerusalem, who refuse to sign Arabs) so hopefully their fans will not react to what may appear to them to be no more than baiting. I feel that to be encouraging football fans to take part in such behaviours, which could so easily be misinterpreted and provoke a violent reaction, is irresponsible in the extreme.

 

While I fully support international Trade Union cooperation, and in unions getting involved in political campaigning to try to achieve a lasting peace between Israel and Palestine, a football game is neither the time or the place for such a campaign. As a football fan myself, as well as an active Trade Union member, Safety Rep, and National Steward, I have found this all very embarrassing. Many of my members (supporting various teams, including Celtic) have raised this with me, as have numerous friends who are aware of my Trade Union activities, and they have been unanimous in their condemnation of the STUC's action.

 

That an organisation such as the STUC should be suggesting this shows a stunning level of naivety, and to my mind has done incalculable harm, both to it's own credibility, and to that of the Trade Union movement in general.

 

Yours in disgust

 

 

.................

 

 

I don't really expect a reply, but I felt it had to be said.

 

Rant Over !

 

[Baird, King and Michael]

Where did I say that?

 

We are talking about a completely entrenched and complex situation here. If it's of any consolation, I would like to see a return to pre-1967 borders, with a guaranteed land route between the West Bank and Gaza, the removal of all Israeli settlements outwith their borders, and the recognition of Israel by the surrounding Arab states. It's going to be a very long drawn-out process though, a mixture of top-level politics, subtle economic pressure, and the will of the people involved. And it is the latter of these is the most important. No change will ever be effected unless the Israeli people decide they want it. What we don't want to be doing is forcing the Israelis further into their trenches (which, if anything, this ill-considered STUC plan will do), we want to be drawing them out. And I guarantee that the more political gestures we see like this, the more entrenched the situation will become.

 

I know that the situation is complex and entrenched. I made the point I did because saying that you should wave flags of peace for both sides implies that equal blame is attributable or that one side suffers just as much as the other. That is clearly not the case. The fact that countries surrounding Israel are hostile does not give carte blanche for their government and military to behave in the way that it does towards the Palestinian people.

 

Do you think it was right to protest against South African sporting teams during apartheid? Did that force the apartheid regime into the trenches or did it help get rid of an indefensible regime?

[redjambo]

I know that the situation is complex and entrenched. I made the point I did because saying that you should wave flags of peace for both sides implies that equal blame is attributable or that one side suffers just as much as the other. That is clearly not the case. The fact that countries surrounding Israel are hostile does not give carte blanche for their government and military to behave in the way that it does towards the Palestinian people.

 

Do you think it was right to protest against South African sporting teams during apartheid? Did that force the apartheid regime into the trenches or did it help get rid of an indefensible regime?

 

Eh??? No, all it does is show the desire and hope for peace, no matter the current "score" as regards any blame. Is it peace you really want, or is it something else?

 

This struggle is not the same as the struggle against apartheid and you know it (and for that reason I'm not going to go into the plethora of reasons why that is the case). It's this sort of simplistic argument that's holding us back in our attempts to find a true long-lasting solution to the Israel/Palestine situation.

[Baird, King and Michael]

Eh??? No, all it does is show the desire and hope for peace, no matter the current "score" as regards any blame. Is it peace you really want, or is it something else?

 

This struggle is not the same as the struggle against apartheid and you know it (and for that reason I'm not going to go into the plethora of reasons why that is the case). It's this sort of simplistic argument that's holding us back in our attempts to find a true long-lasting solution to the Israel/Palestine situation.

 

"Something else"...like what?

 

I never said the struggle was the same as the struggle against apartheid. (At this point I was going to insert one of those upside down smilies but I'm too thick to do it!) I was asking you if you thought sporting protest entrenched the South African government or helped in the process of finaly removing apartheid.

 

I'm not trying to be simplistic about anything or imply that this is not a complex issue. I have been defending the STUC's position in asking for the protest as I think they are justified... you clearly do not. That's fine.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

No, not ANY political cause but there are some exceptions to the rule. South African Apartheid policies warranted the demonstrations at Rugby and Cricket internationals - demonstrations which took place in other countries as well as the UK and which ultimately lead to the boycotts against South Africa which eventually brought them to their senses.

 

After the events of Dec/Jan 2008/09 in Gaza there is no doubt in my mind that peaceful demonstrations reflecting the desperate plight of Palestinians at the hands of successive right wing Israeli governments are warranted and a UEFA football match with TV coverage across the world including Israel, and indeed Gaza, is a reasonable platform for expressions of solidarity with Palestinians and abhorance for the terrorist pariah state which Israel has become.

I'm sorry but there is no moral equivalence with apartheid here in a sporting context. If there was a Gleneagles agreement equivalent in place you would have a point.

[redjambo]

"Something else"...like what?

 

I never said the struggle was the same as the struggle against apartheid. (At this point I was going to insert one of those upside down smilies but I'm too thick to do it!) I was asking you if you thought sporting protest entrenched the South African government or helped in the process of finaly removing apartheid.

 

I'm not trying to be simplistic about anything or imply that this is not a complex issue. I have been defending the STUC's position in asking for the protest as I think they are justified... you clearly do not. That's fine.

 

Yes, BK&M, I do believe that in the case of apartheid, eventually, sporting protest was one of the contributing factors to the process that finally brought down apartheid. It's fairly obvious however that we both disagree as to whether sporting protest will do the same in this case.

 

I think we both would like to see the same "endgame" for this situation. I know it's not particularly relevant to the debate but if you could wave your magic wand, what would you like to see as the result for Israel and Palestine (I outlined my desired result in a previous post)?

 

<- To get me, just click on the relevant smiley in the window to the right of the input text box when you're writing your reply - it should insert it at the current point in the text.

[Baird, King and Michael]

Yes, BK&M, I do believe that in the case of apartheid, eventually, sporting protest was one of the contributing factors to the process that finally brought down apartheid. It's fairly obvious however that we both disagree as to whether sporting protest will do the same in this case.

 

I think we both would like to see the same "endgame" for this situation. I know it's not particularly relevant to the debate but if you could wave your magic wand, what would you like to see as the result for Israel and Palestine (I outlined my desired result in a previous post)?

 

<- To get me, just click on the relevant smiley in the window to the right of the input text box when you're writing your reply - it should insert it at the current point in the text.

 

 

Hi redjambo. I can see this getting kicked into the Shed?but you did ask.

 

I believe that for centuries the Arabs and the Jews in that part of the world lived in relative peace. The manner in which Israel was founded changed all of that. The Holocaust against the Jews happened in Europe yet it was the peoples of Palestine who have suffered as a result.

 

If I had a magic wand then I would want to see a secular state, free from religious dogma, where all peoples, Arab or Jew, had equal rights and the freedom to move and work where they choose. If that?s too utopian then I would like to see an Israel that recognised that it must comply with UN decisions with regards to its own borders. An Israel that recognised that there can be no solution to their own security problems that does not involve justice for the Palestinians.

 

The Brazilian Paulo Freire said;

 

"Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral."

 

For that reason I think it is the right thing to do to highlight the plight of the Palestinian people and the struggle they face for survival in the face of an aggressive Israeli state. That doesn?t mean you support terrorist action against innocent Israelis or that you support religious extremists who would want to see a new genocide against the Jews. But it does mean that you recognise this is not a conflict of equals. Not one side as bad as the other. I believe the Palestinians deserve our support and solidarity and that the STUC protest is a small step towards showing them the people of Scotland and the world care for their plight. I also think that many of the supporters of Halpoel Tel Aviv will share that view.

[redjambo]

Hi redjambo. I can see this getting kicked into the Shed?but you did ask.

 

I believe that for centuries the Arabs and the Jews in that part of the world lived in relative peace. The manner in which Israel was founded changed all of that. The Holocaust against the Jews happened in Europe yet it was the peoples of Palestine who have suffered as a result.

 

If I had a magic wand then I would want to see a secular state, free from religious dogma, where all peoples, Arab or Jew, had equal rights and the freedom to move and work where they choose. If that?s too utopian then I would like to see an Israel that recognised that it must comply with UN decisions with regards to its own borders. An Israel that recognised that there can be no solution to their own security problems that does not involve justice for the Palestinians.

 

The Brazilian Paulo Freire said;

 

"Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral."

 

For that reason I think it is the right thing to do to highlight the plight of the Palestinian people and the struggle they face for survival in the face of an aggressive Israeli state. That doesn?t mean you support terrorist action against innocent Israelis or that you support religious extremists who would want to see a new genocide against the Jews. But it does mean that you recognise this is not a conflict of equals. Not one side as bad as the other. I believe the Palestinians deserve our support and solidarity and that the STUC protest is a small step towards showing them the people of Scotland and the world care for their plight. I also think that many of the supporters of Halpoel Tel Aviv will share that view.

 

Ah, I hadn't thought about a possible secular state. I guess I just dismissed it from my mind as being too idealistic. I think we agree in substance, but not in method. Splitting Palestine was a crazy, badly thought-out idea but what's done is done. It's how we strive to find peace, justice and co-existence for both sides as they currently stand that's the challenge.

 

Oh well, we'll just have to see how the planned "demonstration" pans out. Nice to have debated the issue with you though BK&M.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Hi redjambo. I can see this getting kicked into the Shedbut you did ask.

 

I believe that for centuries the Arabs and the Jews in that part of the world lived in relative peace. The manner in which Israel was founded changed all of that. The Holocaust against the Jews happened in Europe yet it was the peoples of Palestine who have suffered as a result.

 

If I had a magic wand then I would want to see a secular state, free from religious dogma, where all peoples, Arab or Jew, had equal rights and the freedom to move and work where they choose. If thats too utopian then I would like to see an Israel that recognised that it must comply with UN decisions with regards to its own borders. An Israel that recognised that there can be no solution to their own security problems that does not involve justice for the Palestinians.

 

The Brazilian Paulo Freire said;

 

"Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral."

 

For that reason I think it is the right thing to do to highlight the plight of the Palestinian people and the struggle they face for survival in the face of an aggressive Israeli state. That doesnt mean you support terrorist action against innocent Israelis or that you support religious extremists who would want to see a new genocide against the Jews. But it does mean that you recognise this is not a conflict of equals. Not one side as bad as the other. I believe the Palestinians deserve our support and solidarity and that the STUC protest is a small step towards showing them the people of Scotland and the world care for their plight. I also think that many of the supporters of Halpoel Tel Aviv will share that view.

So you don't think others would use this precedent to justify other causes that THEY feel are political?

[4marsbars]

So you don't think others would use this precedent to justify other causes that THEY feel are political?

 

 

Presumably, every cause should be justified on its merits, and as long as the outcome is discussion (as is taking place in this thread) rather than, say, violence it's no bad thing.

 

There are a whole host of examples where sport and politics mix, apartheid and sectarianism being the most obvious.

 

Apartheid has come up a few times on this thread. On this one, I took the mainstream view that sport could not ignore politics. Indeed, to say that "sport and politics shouldn't mix" in that instance was itself a political statement. What did / do you think?

 

The sectarian question is different, for me at any rate. On this issue, I'd like to keep football and politics as wide apart as possible because (unlike a minority) I think it is wrong to assume that Hearts fans, as Hearts fans, have one particular view, or take one particular side (Hearts fans, as private individuals, can take whatever view they want, they just shouldn't believe their point of view to be a Hearts viewpoint). Even then, I am happy to mix sport and politics, because I think that it is only by discussing these issues (however repetitively and boringly we do it) that there is any hope of progress.

 

On the Palestinian question, this thread highlights perfectly that Hearts fans take a variety of views, which seems quite healthy. It's difficult to take sides here because whichever side you might take, people on the opposite side will be able to accuse you of supporting some atrocity or other. But the fact that a team from Israel is about to play in Scotland makes it perfectly valid to have that discussion. That they are playing Celtic guarantees that that discussion will not go smoothly here.

[Baird, King and Michael]

So you don't think others would use this precedent to justify other causes that THEY feel are political?

 

Hi Geoff,

 

Football throughout its history has been used the world over as a focal point for political protest.

 

Even on JKB, hardly a week goes by without this board being full of discussion by those who think it is appropriate to attach the name of HMFC to political protest or at least to a certain political point of view. They sing songs that have political connotations and they carry flags that do the same.

 

Some people may think that politics should be removed entirely from football...that's fine. There has to be a consistency to that argument though. In Scotland politics of one kind of another has dominated the game and Hearts are far from immune.

 

If you are one of those who tolerate Rule Britannia, being up to our knees in Fenian blood or Edinbra is wonderful then how can you argue that supporters of other teams are not entitled to display a political point of view?

 

If however you believe that politics of any sort has no place in sport then that is an entirely different argument. Let?s not pretend that?s what motivates some of the posts on this thread though. (And by that I don?t mean you or redjambo!)

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Hi Geoff,

 

Football throughout its history has been used the world over as a focal point for political protest.

 

Even on JKB, hardly a week goes by without this board being full of discussion by those who think it is appropriate to attach the name of HMFC to political protest or at least to a certain political point of view. They sing songs that have political connotations and they carry flags that do the same.

 

Some people may think that politics should be removed entirely from football...that's fine. There has to be a consistency to that argument though. In Scotland politics of one kind of another has dominated the game and Hearts are far from immune.

 

If you are one of those who tolerate Rule Britannia, being up to our knees in Fenian blood or Edinbra is wonderful then how can you argue that supporters of other teams are not entitled to display a political point of view?

 

If however you believe that politics of any sort has no place in sport then that is an entirely different argument. Lets not pretend thats what motivates some of the posts on this thread though. (And by that I dont mean you or redjambo!)

Appreciate the response but to me it weakens the argument against sectarianism in Scottish football, which is very concerning.

[Baird, King and Michael]

Appreciate the response but to me it weakens the argument against sectarianism in Scottish football, which is very concerning.

 

I would join you in wanting to rid Scottish football of sectarianism.

 

In a sense if it was Motherwell or Aberdeen fans being asked to take part in this protest then it would have been less controversial. I realise that because it?s Celtic then bigots on both sides of the sectarian divide in Scotland will seize any opportunity to have a go at the other side. i.e Celtic fans with little or no grasp of the complexities of the Israel/Palestine situation will like to wave flags that annoy Israeli flag waving Rangers fans.

 

However, it is Celtic who happen to be playing an Israeli team and therefore I see the STUC?s point.

[billco98]

Hi redjambo. I can see this getting kicked into the Shed?but you did ask.

 

I believe that for centuries the Arabs and the Jews in that part of the world lived in relative peace. The manner in which Israel was founded changed all of that. The Holocaust against the Jews happened in Europe yet it was the peoples of Palestine who have suffered as a result.

 

If I had a magic wand then I would want to see a secular state, free from religious dogma, where all peoples, Arab or Jew, had equal rights and the freedom to move and work where they choose. If that?s too utopian then I would like to see an Israel that recognised that it must comply with UN decisions with regards to its own borders. An Israel that recognised that there can be no solution to their own security problems that does not involve justice for the Palestinians.

 

The Brazilian Paulo Freire said;

 

"Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral."

 

For that reason I think it is the right thing to do to highlight the plight of the Palestinian people and the struggle they face for survival in the face of an aggressive Israeli state. That doesn?t mean you support terrorist action against innocent Israelis or that you support religious extremists who would want to see a new genocide against the Jews. But it does mean that you recognise this is not a conflict of equals. Not one side as bad as the other. I believe the Palestinians deserve our support and solidarity and that the STUC protest is a small step towards showing them the people of Scotland and the world care for their plight. I also think that many of the supporters of Halpoel Tel Aviv will share that view.

 

THe wisest post on this thread. I would recommend you read, if you have not already done so, an excellent book on the the seeds of conflict in the Middle East - 'Sowing the Wind' by John Keay.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sowing-Wind-Seeds-Conflict-Middle/dp/0719555833

[Baird, King and Michael]

THe wisest post on this thread. I would recommend you read, if you have not already done so, an excellent book on the the seeds of conflict in the Middle East - 'Sowing the Wind' by John Keay.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sowing-Wind-Seeds-Conflict-Middle/dp/0719555833

 

Thanks billco98, I haven't read the book but I do find it interesting to read about political conflicts and their roots and causes. I might give this a try.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

THe wisest post on this thread. I would recommend you read, if you have not already done so, an excellent book on the the seeds of conflict in the Middle East - 'Sowing the Wind' by John Keay.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sowing-Wind-Seeds-Conflict-Middle/dp/0719555833

 

There are two different issues here, with respect.

 

There are the rights and wrongs over the whole Israel-Palestine conflict. I have avoided comment on that deliberately.

 

Then there is the issue of using a football match as a vehicle for engendering that viewpoint. That to me is wrong when Scottish football has its own issues to address.

[billco98]

There are two different issues here, with respect.

 

There are the rights and wrongs over the whole Israel-Palestine conflict. I have avoided comment on that deliberately.

 

Then there is the issue of using a football match as a vehicle for engendering that viewpoint. That to me is wrong when Scottish football has its own issues to address.

 

Still canny see it, Geoff?

 

The first 'issue' leads to the second. It is the gravity of and utter obsenity of the situation in Israel-Palestine which merits a demonstration at this particular match. The 'Glasgow Sectarian Divide' is irrelevant in this context.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Still canny see it, Geoff?

 

The first 'issue' leads to the second. It is the gravity of and utter obsenity of the situation in Israel-Palestine which merits a demonstration at this particular match. The 'Glasgow Sectarian Divide' is irrelevant in this context.

 

That's where I beg to differ.

 

If the Basques were being cracked down on in Spain, for example, there would be no calls to do something like this at a game against Real Madrid. The STUC seem to have determined, by themselves, that they have a moral justification for calling for this demonstration. All it is going to lead to is 'whataboutery' where the sectarian divide is concerned.

 

I remember seeing the Star of David going up around Protestant areas pre 12th July about ten years ago back home and I thought, "WTF?" and apparently it was in response to Palestinian flags fluttering along the Falls Road. That's the kind of idiotic response that will happen to something like this.

[Heaven98]

Still canny see it, Geoff?

 

The first 'issue' leads to the second. It is the gravity of and utter obsenity of the situation in Israel-Palestine which merits a demonstration at this particular match. The 'Glasgow Sectarian Divide' is irrelevant in this context.

 

I don't doubt your sincerity. However I do doubt your conclusions. No matter your laudable sentiments, it's people like you who spout the words "utter" and "obsenity" from such a polarizsed position that ensure nothing will be achieved.

 

Meanwhile the rest of us common sense merchants would quite like to just bang some heads together rather than making stupid,empty political gestures.

[billco98]

I don't doubt your sincerity. However I do doubt your conclusions. No matter your laudable sentiments, it's people like you who spout the words "utter" and "obsenity" from such a polarizsed position that ensure nothing will be achieved.

 

Meanwhile the rest of us common sense merchants would quite like to just bang some heads together rather than making stupid,empty political gestures.

 

 

So you turned off you're TV when the news coverage of Gaza showing phosphorus shells raining down on civilian communities, the UN chief in the area giving an eye witness account of the IDF attack on UN safe buildings in Gaza City, young kids being carried into hospital with half their heads blown off, 6 weeks of the best and most advanced military machinery and weaponry being used day and night in attacks on a beseiged and defenceless community in one of the most densely populated places on the planet; or maybe you were watching 'Britain's Got Talent' or some other easy viewing material; maybe you didn't have the stomach to watch the numerous documentaries highlighting Israel's crimes against humanity; maybe you don't keep up with the news and missed the UN report and others which have accused Israel of war crimes; or maybe you are just selective in what you want to take on board.

 

No, I'll stand by my use of terms like 'utter' and 'obsenity' in this context - the same terms, ironically, I used many years ago when I first saw footage of the death camps at Belsen and Auschwitz.

 

Please explain how you and the rest of the 'common sense merchants' are going to 'bang heads together'. Actually 'banging heads together' suggests a parity of responsibility - so that also suggests to me that you can't recognise the bully in the playground. That says it all.

[Colonel Kurtz]

So you turned off you're TV when the news coverage of Gaza showing phosphorus shells raining down on civilian communities, the UN chief in the area giving an eye witness account of the IDF attack on UN safe buildings in Gaza City, young kids being carried into hospital with half their heads blown off, 6 weeks of the best and most advanced military machinery and weaponry being used day and night in attacks on a beseiged and defenceless community in one of the most densely populated places on the planet; or maybe you were watching 'Britain's Got Talent' or some other easy viewing material; maybe you didn't have the stomach to watch the numerous documentaries highlighting Israel's crimes against humanity; maybe you don't keep up with the news and missed the UN report and others which have accused Israel of war crimes; or maybe you are just selective in what you want to take on board.

 

No, I'll stand by my use of terms like 'utter' and 'obsenity' in this context - the same terms, ironically, I used many years ago when I first saw footage of the death camps at Belsen and Auschwitz.

 

Please explain how you and the rest of the 'common sense merchants' are going to 'bang heads together'. Actually 'banging heads together' suggests a parity of responsibility - so that also suggests to me that you can't recognise the bully in the playground. That says it all.

 

Nil Desperandum my friend..Tony Blair is the middle east Peace Envoy

[Peter Andre]

The media's coverage of this conflict in the past year or so has been terrible but it has always been terrible because people have such a poor understanding of how the Israelis and Palestinians have ended up in this mess. To show "solidarity" with one side is completely ignorant to the fact that both sides are actually to blame. A peaceful solution won't be found until people stop pointing the finger of blame one way or another.

[Tokyo Drifter]

Good on them if they do IMO. Hope the Israeli ambassador is booed to the rafters, or girders, or whatever it is the use too hold to roof up at Parkheid. Not enough crazy political gestures in football these days.

[billco98]

Nil Desperandum my friend..Tony Blair is the middle east Peace Envoy

 

Aye, and do you remember, GW Bush's sop to him for taking Britain into the illegal Iraq War - 'The Middle East Road'. The most discredited political scrap of paper since Hitler's 'Peace in Our Time' scribble to Neville Chamberlin.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

On a slightly different note, how do the activists feel about the fact that Israel is a member of UEFA and the reason for that?

[billco98]

The media's coverage of this conflict in the past year or so has been terrible but it has always been terrible because people have such a poor understanding of how the Israelis and Palestinians have ended up in this mess. To show "solidarity" with one side is completely ignorant to the fact that both sides are actually to blame. A peaceful solution won't be found until people stop pointing the finger of blame one way or another.

 

I reckon you need to learn more about the subject and you would hopefully see the light. The Palestinians are the ones who have been shafted left right and centre since the advent of Zionism in the late 19th century.

 

The unblinkered support for Israel by the West (US & UK in particular) since it's inception in 1948 but more so since 1967 has resulted in the tragedy we see now. The fear of being critical of Israel lest you be accused of Anti-Semitism is also a factor. As I have said before The Palestinians have been made to pay for Hitler's Holocaust and I am far from the only person to have made that statement.

 

Zionist madness will ultimately lead to Israel's destruction - unfortunately many innocent people have already died and many more will die before the endgame.

[billco98]

On a slightly different note, how do the activists feel about the fact that Israel is a member of UEFA and the reason for that?

 

Since when was Israel in Europe? Of course Israel would not be accepted in the Asian Confederation for obvious reasons so we can see why the rules were bent in this case.

 

Again you wont be surprised that I believe Israel should be suspended by FIFA until they withdraw from the West Bank and sign up to the Two State Solution without strings attached. Then it might actually be possible for them to join the Asian set-up.

[redjambo]

Since when was Israel in Europe? Of course Israel would not be accepted in the Asian Confederation for obvious reasons so we can see why the rules were bent in this case.

 

Again you wont be surprised that I believe Israel should be suspended by FIFA until they withdraw from the West Bank and sign up to the Two State Solution without strings attached. Then it might actually be possible for them to join the Asian set-up.

 

It is one of the strongest FIFA mantras that politics should not be mixed with football, to the extent that they will "ex-communicate" a national association at the drop of a hat if they feel that politicians are interfering with that association. Your scenario is thus extremely unlikely - probably best that you try another approach.

[Colonel Kurtz]

That's where I beg to differ.

 

If the Basques were being cracked down on in Spain, for example, there would be no calls to do something like this at a game against Real Madrid. The STUC seem to have determined, by themselves, that they have a moral justification for calling for this demonstration. All it is going to lead to is 'whataboutery' where the sectarian divide is concerned.

 

I remember seeing the Star of David going up around Protestant areas pre 12th July about ten years ago back home and I thought, "WTF?" and apparently it was in response to Palestinian flags fluttering along the Falls Road. That's the kind of idiotic response that will happen to something like this.

Another misconception and a reason why football should be kept seperate

Franco chose Real,they didnt choose Franco.

Rwad your history of Madrids involvent in The Spanish civil war

[Tokyo Drifter]

Mind you if the Palestinian flag was red white and blue I don't think there'd be any takers.

[Seats]

IF this was Hearts that were being asked to do this, I would be extremely uncomfortable at the club getting involved in something like this for a couple of reasons:

 

1. Their involvement and my support of the team would imply that I support the cause (which I may not)

2. I am not a member of the STUC and do not want my team to lend support to a union that I do not necessarily support or agree with - what the hell do they have to do with Scottish Football or indeed Middle East politics?

3. I find it hypocritical that sectarianism is trying to be stamped out of football yet we can have a go at the other side because they are from Isreal!

 

This is a nonsense which has been dreamed up by typical bleeding heart celtic fans and should be cut off at the root now by the SFA.

[Colonel Kurtz]

THe wisest post on this thread. I would recommend you read, if you have not already done so, an excellent book on the the seeds of conflict in the Middle East - 'Sowing the Wind' by John Keay.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sowing-Wind-Seeds-Conflict-Middle/dp/0719555833

 

You will be intereted in a full page open letter to Gordon Brown in todays Times entitled The Goldstone report British Jews do not speak with one voice.

This is signed by about 500 british acedemic jews and sponsored by amongst others Scottish Jews for a just peace.

The letter welcomes Goldstones findings ,of which I am sure you are aware

[Guest Dipped Flake]

So you turned off you're TV when the news coverage of Gaza showing phosphorus shells raining down on civilian communities, the UN chief in the area giving an eye witness account of the IDF attack on UN safe buildings in Gaza City, young kids being carried into hospital with half their heads blown off, 6 weeks of the best and most advanced military machinery and weaponry being used day and night in attacks on a beseiged and defenceless community in one of the most densely populated places on the planet; or maybe you were watching 'Britain's Got Talent' or some other easy viewing material; maybe you didn't have the stomach to watch the numerous documentaries highlighting Israel's crimes against humanity; maybe you don't keep up with the news and missed the UN report and others which have accused Israel of war crimes; or maybe you are just selective in what you want to take on board.

 

No, I'll stand by my use of terms like 'utter' and 'obsenity' in this context - the same terms, ironically, I used many years ago when I first saw footage of the death camps at Belsen and Auschwitz.

 

Please explain how you and the rest of the 'common sense merchants' are going to 'bang heads together'. Actually 'banging heads together' suggests a parity of responsibility - so that also suggests to me that you can't recognise the bully in the playground. That says it all.

 

To be fair to Heaven98, he is in the USA and so will not have seen a lot of what you describe, due to the news outlets there being heavily censored when it comes down to the Palestinian conflict. Unfortunately we are now seeing the same thing here with Rupert Murdoch and Sky news

[Heaven98]

So you turned off you're TV when the news coverage of Gaza showing phosphorus shells raining down on civilian communities, the UN chief in the area giving an eye witness account of the IDF attack on UN safe buildings in Gaza City, young kids being carried into hospital with half their heads blown off, 6 weeks of the best and most advanced military machinery and weaponry being used day and night in attacks on a beseiged and defenceless community in one of the most densely populated places on the planet; or maybe you were watching 'Britain's Got Talent' or some other easy viewing material; maybe you didn't have the stomach to watch the numerous documentaries highlighting Israel's crimes against humanity; maybe you don't keep up with the news and missed the UN report and others which have accused Israel of war crimes; or maybe you are just selective in what you want to take on board.

 

No, I'll stand by my use of terms like 'utter' and 'obsenity' in this context - the same terms, ironically, I used many years ago when I first saw footage of the death camps at Belsen and Auschwitz.

 

Please explain how you and the rest of the 'common sense merchants' are going to 'bang heads together'. Actually 'banging heads together' suggests a parity of responsibility - so that also suggests to me that you can't recognise the bully in the playground. That says it all.

 

What is necessary in these debates is cool heads and not apportioning blame. Otherwise nothing that really helps and stops real people dying gets done.

[Heaven98]

To be fair to Heaven98, he is in the USA and so will not have seen a lot of what you describe, due to the news outlets there being heavily censored when it comes down to the Palestinian conflict. Unfortunately we are now seeing the same thing here with Rupert Murdoch and Sky news

 

We do have BBC America. We do have access to all the mainstream European news channels. I appreciate the sentiment but intensely dislike "gesture" politicking. It's never achieved anything. More an endless platform for loud-mouths to stroke their own trumpets.

[billco98]

What is necessary in these debates is cool heads and not apportioning blame. Otherwise nothing that really helps and stops real people dying gets done.

 

I am sorry, Heaven98, for not previously taking on board the fact that you are based in the US where news coverage tends to be through the prism of Fox News and other Murdoch controlled outlets and also where critical analyses of the true goings-on in the Middle East are virtually not existent in the mass media.

 

I agree with you about cool heads being needed but I see very clearly that it is Israel who are predominantly responsible for the problems. They virtually, through the massive influence of 'The Lobby' in the States, have had control of US foreign policy regarding the Israel/Palestine conflict for the last 40 odd years and have used it at every turn to continue with their illegal expansion of settlements on the West bank and in East Jerusalem. This was especially true in the eight years of the GW Bush administration.

 

Hopefully, Obama will step up to the plate and take Netanyahu on. The latter is hoping he can dance around Obama by prevaricating and, regretably, stirring up another Intefada by use of his escalating prevocative actions in Palestinian East Jerusalem and by the settler communities on the illegally occupied West Bank escalating their abuses against Palestinian families going about their daily lawful business, all of which have been reported by the BBC over the last few weeks.

 

As far as a protest at the UEFA cup game at Parkhead is concerned, I think any form of visible support will not only show solidarity with the Palestinians but could be used by those organisations within Israel who are extremely critical of their own government's actions.

[billco98]

You will be intereted in a full page open letter to Gordon Brown in todays Times entitled The Goldstone report British Jews do not speak with one voice.

This is signed by about 500 british acedemic jews and sponsored by amongst others Scottish Jews for a just peace.

The letter welcomes Goldstones findings ,of which I am sure you are aware

 

I don't suppose there is a link for that, Colonel. I've had a look at 'Times Online' but to no avail.

 

I am surprised that Rupert Murdoch is prepared to allow one of his organs to 'rock the boat' in this way.

[Heaven98]

See my last post. It's so strange to me that you somehow all think we don't have access to the same information or don't process it in the way you do.

 

I can categorically say that not one of our American friends of whatever bent, religion or birthplace think that the situation is anything less than tragic. What they all do agree on is that the method and efforts of trying to resolve it is pathetic when you see human beings crushed by overwhelming armour.

 

I am sorry, Heaven98, for not previously taking on board the fact that you are based in the US where news coverage tends to be through the prism of Fox News and other Murdoch controlled outlets and also where critical analyses of the true goings-on in the Middle East are virtually not existent in the mass media..

[Dunks]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8388962.stm

 

Correct response from Celtic IMO

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Since when was Israel in Europe? Of course Israel would not be accepted in the Asian Confederation for obvious reasons so we can see why the rules were bent in this case.

 

Again you wont be surprised that I believe Israel should be suspended by FIFA until they withdraw from the West Bank and sign up to the Two State Solution without strings attached. Then it might actually be possible for them to join the Asian set-up.

 

Outstanding!

 

If the two state solution was set up tomorrow, no strings attached, most if not all of the Arab nations would still refuse to recognise Israel.

 

Would you protest against that stance through football too?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Another misconception and a reason why football should be kept seperate

Franco chose Real,they didnt choose Franco.

Rwad your history of Madrids involvent in The Spanish civil war

 

Colonel, my point wasn't to do with Real. In fact Hapoel are the innocent party here but they are the people feeling the full brunt of the protest despite their pro-Palestinian record. The opposition are irrelevant for these protestors and I'm willing to bet a few Hapoel heads get slapped as a consequence.

[shaun.lawson]

Since when was Israel in Europe? Of course Israel would not be accepted in the Asian Confederation for obvious reasons so we can see why the rules were bent in this case.

 

Again you wont be surprised that I believe Israel should be suspended by FIFA until they withdraw from the West Bank and sign up to the Two State Solution without strings attached. Then it might actually be possible for them to join the Asian set-up.

 

Marvellous. While they're at it, should they also suspend North Korea (for being one of the most evil, despicable regimes on earth), Uzbekistan (ditto), Syria and Iran (for sponsoring terrorism, and wanting Israel wiped off the map), Sudan (for what's going on in Darfur), Zimbabwe (because of Mugabe), and assorted countries all over the world, with China the largest amongst them, because of their flagrant abuses of human rights? Or is it just Israel? Do tell.

 

Why should Israeli sportspeople be punished because of the actions of their government? When the US boycotted the Moscow Olympics, it destroyed the dreams so many of their athletes had spent their whole lives working towards. And all because Carter was under pressure, so had to show how big America's metaphorical penis was.

[redjambo]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8388962.stm

 

Correct response from Celtic IMO

 

Agreed.

[shaun.lawson]

See my last post. It's so strange to me that you somehow all think we don't have access to the same information or don't process it in the way you do.

 

I can categorically say that not one of our American friends of whatever bent, religion or birthplace think that the situation is anything less than tragic. What they all do agree on is that the method and efforts of trying to resolve it is pathetic when you see human beings crushed by overwhelming armour.

 

One thing, David. No doubt, the tone of the coverage of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict has changed in the US in recent years: in the liberal media, at least. But when American friends of mine - all reasonable, knowledgeable and well educated - started studying the conflict at LSE, they all assumed the Palestinians were largely to blame; and ended up thinking the exact opposite. And that had nothing to do with any bias on the part of the course lecturer, who is as moderate and objective a scholar on this as you'll find anywhere, and arguably the leader in the field.

 

I do agree that cool heads and a desire not to attribute blame are needed, though. Whenever anyone wonders why this conflict is still going on, and still so intractable, all they have to do is debate it among friends. Because things become so heated, so emotional and so impassioned so quickly. Multiply that by about ten thousand, and that's what it's like on the ground in Israel and Palestine.

[billco98]

Outstanding!

 

If the two state solution was set up tomorrow, no strings attached, most if not all of the Arab nations would still refuse to recognise Israel.

 

Would you protest against that stance through football too?

 

You're out of date, Geoff - most Arab states do recognise Israel's right to exist within its pre-1967 frontier. Even Yasser Arafat made that commitment in 1993.

 

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Israel-PLO%20Recognition%20-%20Exchange%20of%20Letters%20betwe

 

Unfortunately duplicitous Zionist Israel takes with both hands and has continued to expand the illegal settlements to the point where a viable state for the Palestinians on the West Bank is virtually impossible to establish. However nature is at hand to put a massive spanner in the works of future Zionist expansion. Water or the lack of it is rapidly becoming a serious problem.

[IMA MAROON]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/8388962.stm

 

Correct response from Celtic IMO

 

About time. Why did it take them so long?

 

The STUC have got what they wanted out of it anyway. Some self promotion.

[lost in leith]

Marvellous. While they're at it, should they also suspend North Korea (for being one of the most evil, despicable regimes on earth), Uzbekistan (ditto), Syria and Iran (for sponsoring terrorism, and wanting Israel wiped off the map), Sudan (for what's going on in Darfur), Zimbabwe (because of Mugabe), and assorted countries all over the world, with China the largest amongst them, because of their flagrant abuses of human rights? Or is it just Israel? Do tell.

 

Why should Israeli sportspeople be punished because of the actions of their government? When the US boycotted the Moscow Olympics, it destroyed the dreams so many of their athletes had spent their whole lives working towards. And all because Carter was under pressure, so had to show how big America's metaphorical penis was.

 

Agreed. Brazil played some of the greatest football ever under a military dictatorship, Italy won two World Cups under fascism etc.

 

Mind you, I do think England should be kicked out of the World Cup if the Chilcot Enquiry finds out the UK invaded Iraq under false pretences

[Heaven98]

I'd say again that unfortunately it's people like you with the best of intentions that ultimately exacerbate the tenions.

 

You're out of date, Geoff - most Arab states do ruecognise Israel's right to exist within its pre-1967 frontier. Even Yasser Arafat made that commitment in 1993.

 

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Process/Guide%20to%20the%20Peace%20Process/Israel-PLO%20Recognition%20-%20Exchange%20of%20Letters%20betwe

 

Unfortunately duplicitous Zionist Israel takes with both hands and has continued to expand the illegal settlements to the point where a viable state for the Palestinians on the West Bank is virtually impossible to establish. However nature is at hand to put a massive spanner in the works of future Zionist expansion. Water or the lack of it is rapidly becoming a serious problem.