"STUC calls on Celtic fans to fly flag for Palestine at Israeli match"

[billco98]

Polarised opinions on the Israel/Palestinian situation, on both sides, conveniently, seem to choose to forget many of the facts.

 

The state of Israel, present, is somewhat of the abused who has become the abuser.

 

Notwithstanding, centuries of very specific and severe persecution of the Jews culminating in the holocaust, the infant Jewish state was attacked from without and within by the Arab nations - their intent, to wipe out every Jew.

 

What the Palestinians are going through, which I condemn, wouldn't have happened to the Jews if the Arab nations had been victorious, because there would not have been enough Jews left to emulate the tragic Palestinian experience.

 

And, as has been said already, to class all of Israel as "monsters" worthy of extermination betrays, not only ignorance of the fact that many Jews work with and empathise with the Palestinians, but at least the strong suspicion of an anti-semitic leaning.

 

 

 

.............

 

Dont know if you are referring to my opinions but I can assure you I am no Jew hater - my comments are to do with the Zionist expansionist/apartheid policies of the Israeli state. I now that there are many Israelis who hold the same views as I do. I also know Jews in this country who abhor the actions and policies of the current and previous Israeli governments and are prepared to incur the wrath of their fellow Israelis. 'Self-hating Jew' is the erroneous accusation which is often thrown in their faces.

 

If you read the history of Palestine you will find that alongside Muslim and Christian Arabs lived approximately 30,000 Arab Jews. They all lived in harmony prior to the advent of Zionism which sought to set up a Jewish state in Palestine. The Balfour Declaration of 1919 opened the way for Jewish immigration on a large scale with the attendant displacement of Muslim and Christian Arabs from lands and homes owned for centuries.

 

As an aside thousands of Arab Jews lived happily with their Muslim brothers in Iraq under Saddam Hussein without discrimination.

 

There are 25,000 to 30,000 Jews living without discrimination in Iran.

[Debut 4]

Polarised opinions on the Israel/Palestinian situation, on both sides, conveniently, seem to choose to forget many of the facts.

 

The state of Israel, present, is somewhat of the abused who has become the abuser.

 

Notwithstanding, centuries of very specific and severe persecution of the Jews culminating in the holocaust, the infant Jewish state was attacked from without and within by the Arab nations - their intent, to wipe out every Jew. What the Palestinians are going through, which I condemn, wouldn't have happened to the Jews if the Arab nations had been victorious, because there would not have been enough Jews left to emulate the tragic Palestinian experience.

 

And, as has been said already, to class all of Israel as "monsters" worthy of extermination betrays, not only ignorance of the fact that many Jews work with and empathise with the Palestinians, but at least the strong suspicion of an anti-semitic leaning.

 

 

 

.............

 

General good post. Many are i`ll informed on this subject IMO although i don`t know it all myself. Alot of people use post WW2 as the starting point and this distorts the truth.

 

Truth be it(if you take the word of history) is that the Jews and the established new religion of christianity were persecuted by Muslims when Islam forced itself upon that area. (nobody has acknowledged that yet but thats what you expect from ill informed do gooders)

 

It`s all a mess and as you say CM innocents are in the firing line and thats what is the owrst thing about it. What i don`t like is the truth being twisted to suit one side and many have been taken in by that.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

I am not referring to what happened after 1969 but to the fundamental reasons for the ensuing violent disorder. Check out the history or are you one of those with selective memory on the subject?

 

I think PJ1 has called it correctly and you do indeed belong at Darkheid.

 

I'll treat that comment with the contempt it deserves.

 

OK, being ignorant of what happened before 69 perhaps you'd care to enlighten me!

 

[billco98]

I see.

 

So basically you have no issue with OF fans promoting a political agenda within Scottish football.

 

Wrong - I loathe bigotry on both sides.

 

The Palestinian issue as I have already stated is different matter entirely. But Iam not going to atempt to persuade the blinkered.

 

Takes all sorts I suppose.

 

You can say that again.

 

Incidentally, since you feel so strongly about Israel, have you suggested that Scottish football withdraw from UEFA competition since Israel is a member of UEFA?

 

No, I have not as yet, but I do feel strongly that Israel should be suspended from all international sport. To treat them otherwise is to aquiesce in their crimes against humanity.

[Heaven98]

Couldn't someone suggest to the STUC that if they really feel the need to get involved - something that frankly is beyond my ken - a much more powerful statement would be for them to suggest the flying of combined flags of both nations?

 

That would suggest they had a remote grasp on the complexities and project an image that was a tad more classy for the "watching millions", surely?

[billco98]

 

OK, being ignorant of what happened before 69 perhaps you'd care to enlighten me!

 

 

Make an effort and enlighten yourself. There are plenty reliable sources - all you need is an open mind void of prejudice.

[King of the North]

Ignoring the above, you failed to answer the question put to you. Something about your posts on this thread suggests to me you would make an ideal ST holder at Parkhead, you seem to have empathy with those you feel are downtrodden. Get yourself along on Thursday, join in with the STUC driven plastic paddy support of Palestine, in fact I'd go as far as saying should you choose to go I hope you and they enjoy making an erse of yourselves.

 

I would think that most decent people would have 'empathy with those they fel are downtrodden'.

 

Despite the UJs in your avatar, you generally seem to me to be a fairly sensible poster; certainly one who has argued in the pat that an individuals politics have no bearing on the club they support.

 

Whish is why your comment about this particular poster belonging at Parkhead is especially execrable.

 

Most decent, right minded people and ergo most decent, right minded Hearts fans will be abhorred by the conduct of Israel. To suggest that therefore they belong at Parkhead makes you as bad as most of the weegie filth that attaches their pseudo politico-religious baggeage to the OF.

 

Hearts as a club, despite the knuckle draggers amongst us that would love it to be otherwise, have no attachemnet or interest in relision or politics. You should apologise to the poster you attacked for your remarks, which are more suited to some slavering beer bellied hun that the erstwhile intelligent Hearts fan you appeared to be.

[Eckauskas]

Celtic fans in taking up a cause they don't really know anything about shocker.

[Doctor FinnBarr]

Make an effort and enlighten yourself. There are plenty reliable sources - all you need is an open mind void of prejudice.

 

Void of all prejudice that you seem to have? How does that work then?

[Alba gu Brath]

Did you not know the IRA is affiliated to the English Table Tennis Association?

 

That's outrageous. Pingpong playing terrorist nutters.

 

Does support for Palestinians mean support for terrorists though? Even the UN, and recently even the US, have condemned Israeli actions - including everything from razing Palestinians homes, phosphorous bombing schools and building new settlers homes on Palestinian territory.

[leginten]

Most decent, right minded people and ergo most decent, right minded Hearts fans will be abhorred by the conduct of Israel.

 

I dare say this statement is accurate with regard to the abuses that the Palestinians have undoubtedly suffered. But I dare say most decent, right-minded people find even more abhorrent the fact that Israel is surrounded by countries many of which have a far worse record in terms of human rights (to the extent that human rights actually exist there in the accepted sense) and some of which appear to have as their raison d'?tre the annihilation of the Jews. These states seem to slip under the radar of those posters most vehement in their condemnation of Israel.

 

I wonder how many countries in the world have done more to deserve exclusion from international sport than Israel? I'm sure there must be some. Didn't one of them host an Olympics recently?

[Alba gu Brath]

Aye, should be remembered that Israel was founded by terrorists who murdered two kidnapped British soldiers. Israel also ironically supported the fascists of the South African apartheid regime. The supreme irony is that 'Semite' refers to ALL these tribes - Jews, Palestinian Muslims and Christians. Jews say 'Shalom', the Palestinians say 'Salamm'. How different can they be?

 

Mind you, when you get the OF stabbing each other over churches of the same religion that few of them ever attend, who are we to lecture them?

[Konrad von Carstein]

I would think that most decent people would have 'empathy with those they fel are downtrodden'.

 

Despite the UJs in your avatar, you generally seem to me to be a fairly sensible poster; certainly one who has argued in the pat that an individuals politics have no bearing on the club they support.

 

Whish is why your comment about this particular poster belonging at Parkhead is especially execrable.

 

Most decent, right minded people and ergo most decent, right minded Hearts fans will be abhorred by the conduct of Israel. To suggest that therefore they belong at Parkhead makes you as bad as most of the weegie filth that attaches their pseudo politico-religious baggeage to the OF.

 

Hearts as a club, despite the knuckle draggers amongst us that would love it to be otherwise, have no attachemnet or interest in relision or politics. You should apologise to the poster you attacked for your remarks, which are more suited to some slavering beer bellied hun that the erstwhile intelligent Hearts fan you appeared to be.

 

Why should you make the bit in bold be an issue at all on this thread, given you think he is a "sensible poster"?

[portobellojambo1]

I would think that most decent people would have 'empathy with those they fel are downtrodden'.

 

I have no problem with any poster having an opinion on Israel and the non existent place often referred to as Palestine. I would refer you to a post on this thread by ColinMaroon. not everything is as black and white as it appears (Part of it has already been highlighted in a post above)

 

People's opinion of those they class as the downtrodden is often driven by their own political beliefs, in this case those beliefs appear to be more anti British (dressed up as Imperialism) than pro Palestinian or pro Northern Ireland's Roman Catholic population

 

You should apologise to the poster you attacked for your remarks.

 

I'll pass on that if you don't mind, I tend to determine those situations in which I believe an apology is required, in this case I don't believe one is.

 

 

*

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Wrong - I loathe bigotry on both sides.

 

The Palestinian issue as I have already stated is different matter entirely. But Iam not going to atempt to persuade the blinkered.

 

It isn't a question of persuading the blinkered. OF fans may feel for example that they are making a political statement as opposed to complete sectarian morons. After all, some Palestinian groups call for the death of all Jews. Are they bigots too?

 

You are basically deciding here what is valid political protest. Who anoints you with that ability?

 

 

 

 

No, I have not as yet, but I do feel strongly that Israel should be suspended from all international sport. To treat them otherwise is to aquiesce in their crimes against humanity.

 

And that's fair enough. I don't see any campaign anywhere to remove Israel from international sport in the same way that happened to South Africa with the Gleneagles agreement.

[Baird, King and Michael]

It?s interesting to note that many of those condemning the idea of politics being involved in sport are the same ones who advocate the very same at Hearts games. This includes the carrying of certain flags and the singing of certain songs.

 

The STUC appear to have arranged this protest to highlight the plight of an undoubtedly oppressed people. They are calling for an expression of solidarity with Palestinians rather than a condemnation of Halpoel Tel Aviv.

 

A Palestinian flag is not the symbol of a terrorist organisation. It is not the symbol of extremism in any way shape or form. This is not a call for a display of support for Hamas or for any other terrorist organisation in the Middle East.

 

As has already been pointed out in this thread Halpoel Tel Aviv have a tremendous and proud record of standing up for Palestinian rights. For that reason I am sure they and their supporters would understand what the STUC are trying to achieve.

[colinmaroon]

General good post. Many are i`ll informed on this subject IMO although i don`t know it all myself. Alot of people use post WW2 as the starting point and this distorts the truth.

 

Truth be it(if you take the word of history) is that the Jews and the established new religion of christianity were persecuted by Muslims when Islam forced itself upon that area. (nobody has acknowledged that yet but thats what you expect from ill informed do gooders)

 

It`s all a mess and as you say CM innocents are in the firing line and thats what is the worst thing about it. What i don`t like is the truth being twisted to suit one side and many have been taken in by that.

 

 

To be balanced, you are right about the way Islam spread and destroyed the Early Church, particularly in North Africa, but also in Spain and the Middle East.

 

However, when Pope Urban called the 1st Crusade in 1089, in the name of Christianity (so-called) he instigated a reprehensible "crusade" that resulted in the massacre of (I think, if I remember correctly) 40,000 + Muslims and Jews when Jerusalem was captured.

 

The enforcement of religion, or any political creed by force is anathema. And the same goes for the forcible suppression and intolerance that denies the right of each person, before man, to make their own choice, and not to be abused for it.

 

It's one of the major reasons why I, as a Baptist, believe strongly in the separation of Church and State. It doesn't mean that each belief system cannot argue it's case, but if Islam, Christianity, Communism, or whatever, were removed from "crusade" or "jihad" - i.e. might is right - the world would be a different place.

 

I dare say this statement is accurate with regard to the abuses that the Palestinians have undoubtedly suffered. But I dare say most decent, right-minded people find even more abhorrent the fact that Israel is surrounded by countries many of which have a far worse record in terms of human rights (to the extent that human rights actually exist there in the accepted sense) and some of which appear to have as their raison d'?tre the annihilation of the Jews. These states seem to slip under the radar of those posters most vehement in their condemnation of Israel.

 

I wonder how many countries in the world have done more to deserve exclusion from international sport than Israel? I'm sure there must be some. Didn't one of them host an Olympics recently?

 

A very good post!

 

 

 

 

.......

[Ulysses]

I do think that is the real problem with unions. It is not as bad as it was in the 60s, 70s or 80s. A good union defends its members from unfair dismissal, calls for fair wages and makes sure that work practices are both fair and safe for workers. However unions got into real problems when leaders of unions realised they had political strength, rather then use that political strength to help their members into a better posistion, they used it to go at the government and political issues that in reality bared no real issue to their remit or workers.

 

This demonstrates that. What benfit to Scottish workers does calling Celtic fans to fly Palestinian flags? What has the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have in relation to Scottish trade unions? If I was a member of the STUC I would be calling for the leader to resign as there are more important issues at home to be resolved for workers.

 

This.

 

I was actively involved in the Irish trade union movement for years, and one of the most depressing things I recall witnessing in the 1980s and early 1990s was the sight of my counterparts in the UK spouting complete drivel about all of this sort of complete nonsense that had absolutely nothing to do with the terms and conditions of their members - and pathetically wringing their hands while their members were royally screwed over.

 

We'll keep the white flag flying here.

[269miles]

I was in Israel and an israeli was spouting on about Palestinan terrorists...we were passing the King David Hotel.

A lot of the Scots soldiers let jewish refugees come ashore from Exodus,but they were blown up,by an Israeli PM

 

My mates dad was in Palestine at the time ; he has no time for what he sees as Jewish propaganda emanating then and now.

 

Thatcher refused to negotiate with terrorists (aka IRA) : but she invited a known terrorist leader and killer of Britsh army troops into No.10. Natch when he's Jewish all bets are off.

 

Britain created what we know as the 'Middle east problem' simply by arbitrarily applying 'political' solutions of their own making. Iraq ? The home ground of BP who screwed the whole country out of oil revenues for British shareholders ?

 

Israel ? The Jews have the Old Testament and the Holocaust and used it to screw everyone. In this country you would never knbow there is a protest movement in Israel protesting about the 'Israeli DEFENCE Force' and their killing of thousands of Palestinians in the last 'conflict'.

 

Unfortunately if/when Sellick fans enage in the flag waving protest I doubt they'll know much about Israel per se. I'm not saying a protest is without merit but the thought of it being hijacked by the STUC at Sellick Park is pretty depressing.

[Taffin]

A very enjoyably thread, harks backs to the kickback of a few years ago.

Thanks for the read guys.

[speedbump]

Utter utter madness. Words fail me. Obviously though, TGFITW will fall for it hook, line and sinker. Yup, the bhoys of the buckfast brigade are going to influence miidle-eastern policy right enough...

 

http://news.scotsman.com/scotland/STUC-calls-on-Celtic-fans.5866448.jp

 

STUC calls on Celtic fans to fly flag for Palestine at Israeli match

 

Published Date: 28 November 2009

 

CELTIC fans are being asked to wave Palestinian flags during a football match against Israeli team Hapoel Tel Aviv in protest at the invasion of Gaza last year.

The controversial call by the Scottish Trades Union Congress (STUC) came in advance of the Europa League match next Wednesday, which will be seen by millions of football fans.

The gesture is aimed to cause maximum embarrassment to the Israeli ambassador to the UK, Ron Prosor, who is travelling from London to attend the game.

[article continues...]

 

A shinning light of Jack McConnell's band of friends:stuart:

[Bomber Harris' Best Mate]

Will if its alright to be draped in a palestinian flag at a Hearts match I'll continue taking my red hand of ulster flag as I'm disgusted with what my fellow brits had to endure at the hands of the IRA. And I'm also sick of Israel having rockets fired at it on a daily basis from hamas so I'll also start "draping" myself in the israeli flag too.

 

Just to make that clear billco98, anything goes at the football now...

[shaun.lawson]

Boris, my old son, you have quite clearly spent too much time loafing about in the Student Union. Please refer to your history books. Every political viewpoint favours one group in society over another, minority groups be they coloured or whatever, have no more right to protection than a rich successful capitalist. Communism is a flawed concept which was consigned, in any civilised society, to the dustbin many years ago. Life is not fair...people are simply NOT equal. That is fundamental. You could give everyone ?1K tomorrow...the next day, the successful will have doubled it, some will still have ?1K and others will have spent every penny on drink and drugs. Communism thrives on control, interference and manipulation and always, always involves mass murder. For your information, Che Guevara and Stalin were the biggest mass murderers in history..the bearded one taking great delight in murdering while the victims mothers pleaded for mercy. Justice in his case was served eventually.

 

Please revisit my previous post. At no point did I say or infer that the STUC were "extreme left" ...the point is that, along with a lot of these left-leaning individuals in power, they feel duty bound to get involved in things that have nothing to do with them and of which they know nothing about. That is the crux of the matter. They are flying in the face of the efforts of others by bringing politics and religion into football.

 

I eagerly await the methodology behind this bonkers statement.

 

Che Guevara? In the same category as Pol Pot, Hitler, Stalin or Mao? Please. Unhappily, revolutions tend not to occur without many people dying; so on that basis, yes, he was a mass murderer. But while Communism in practice does not work, and leads to many more problems than it solves, Marxism/Leninism is, in theory at least, based on a fundamentally positive view of human nature. It's just that human beings end up brutalised and corrupted by the revolution and once in power.

 

Fascism isn't based on a positive view of human nature at all: quite the opposite. Communism seeks to destroy (or at least, modify to a more common end) the aspirations of the individual; and when practised by corrupt, paranoid, brutal leaders, also the thinking process of the individual. But fascism seeks to destroy literally everything, and seems wholly reliant on killing, killing and more killing.

 

If you don't believe me, watch Machuca, a film on the 1973 fascist coup in Chile. Incidentally, while I'm well aware of the ridiculous flag waving which both halves of the OF's support indulge in (essentially, Rangers fans wave Israeli flags merely because Celtic fans wave Palestinian flags; and vice versa), I'm a little bemused at Celtic being slagged before they've done anything yet, and purely because of something a union leader said.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Will if its alright to be draped in a palestinian flag at a Hearts match I'll continue taking my red hand of ulster flag as I'm disgusted with what my fellow brits had to endure at the hands of the IRA. And I'm also sick of Israel having rockets fired at it on a daily basis from hamas so I'll also start "draping" myself in the israeli flag too.

 

Just to make that clear billco98, anything goes at the football now...

 

Ah, but you are forgetting that he has made himself some authority on what constitutes legitimate political protest as opposed to sectarianism.

[billco98]

Ah, but you are forgetting that he has made himself some authority on what constitutes legitimate political protest as opposed to sectarianism.

 

 

Oh dear, wrong again Geoff - you're making a habit of that.

 

I am not putting myself up as an authority on these matters.

 

The premise of my point of view is this - you will find throughout history that people who have been denied not only their civil rights but have had their land, communities, homes and the very basis of their existence ripped from under them have a tendency to fight back. Do you think for one second that we would not do the same?

 

Sectarianism is a symptom not the fundamental cause.

 

The British Empire was responsible for many of the underlying conflicts in the world. Thier policy of 'divide and rule' may have been ideal in terms of controlling the colonised but the legacy lives on in Kashmir, Cyprus, Iraq, Sudan, Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland, Palestine, etc.

 

I take a stand on Palestine because, of all the devious actions of Perfidious Albion, namely the betrayal of the Palestinians in terms of the Balfour Declaration by the British government in 1919, this was the one with the most dire of consequences to not just the Middle East but to the world in general. Britain held the mandate to protect those people but they opened the door for the Zionist takeover of the Protectorate. British capitulation in 1947/48 to the Zionist terror gangs, Stern and Irgun, paved the way for the ultimate tragic consequences for the Palestinians for which they have paid dearly ever since. Effectively they have paid the price of the European Holocaust.

 

Anti-British maybe, but I have marched on many occasions in protest at Israeli war crimes and have been in the company on these marches with 'Scottish Jews for a Just Peace'.

 

As far as Northern Ireland is concerned I have no truck with sectarianism on either side of the divide. That does not prevent me from stating the historical facts which are the basis of the troubles over the centuries.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Oh dear, wrong again Geoff - you're making a habit of that.

 

I am not putting myself up as an authority on these matters.

 

The premise of my point of view is this - you will find throughout history that people who have been denied not only their civil rights but have had their land, communities, homes and the very basis of their existence ripped from under them have a tendency to fight back. Do you think for one second that we would not do the same?

 

Sectarianism is a symptom not the fundamental cause.

 

The British Empire was responsible for many of the underlying conflicts in the world. Thier policy of 'divide and rule' may have been ideal in terms of controlling the colonised but the legacy lives on in Kashmir, Cyprus, Iraq, Sudan, Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland, Palestine, etc.

 

I take a stand on Palestine because, of all the devious actions of Perfidious Albion, namely the betrayal of the Palestinians in terms of the Balfour Declaration by the British government in 1919, this was the one with the most dire of consequences to not just the Middle East but to the world in general. Britain held the mandate to protect those people but they opened the door for the Zionist takeover of the Protectorate. British capitulation in 1947/48 to the Zionist terror gangs, Stern and Irgun, paved the way for the ultimate tragic consequences for the Palestinians for which they have paid dearly ever since. Effectively they have paid the price of the European Holocaust.

 

Anti-British maybe, but I have marched on many occasions in protest at Israeli war crimes and have been in the company on these marches with 'Scottish Jews for a Just Peace'.

 

As far as Northern Ireland is concerned I have no truck with sectarianism on either side of the divide. That does not prevent me from stating the historical facts which are the basis of the troubles over the centuries.

Quite frankly, your view is no more and no less valid than anyone else's. Do you agree that a football match is an appropriate vehicle for ANY political cause?

[Guest Dipped Flake]

*

 

I have no problem with any poster having an opinion on Israel and the non existent place often referred to as Palestine. I would refer you to a post on this thread by ColinMaroon. not everything is as black and white as it appears (Part of it has already been highlighted in a post above)

 

 

 

This statement really gets my blood going. It is spouted by the pro-israeli lobby at every turn, to justify their jewish state. Palestine has been in existence for thousands of years, the place that has only been there for 60 odd years is Israel. Have a look at the ancient maps, say from the time of Roman empire - You will see Palestine but no Israel. The stats of Israel only exists because of what white, anglo-saxon europeans did to the Jews during the second world war so why the Palestinians should suffer is beyond me.

[Martin_T]

Oh dear, wrong again Geoff - you're making a habit of that.

 

I am not putting myself up as an authority on these matters.

 

The premise of my point of view is this - you will find throughout history that people who have been denied not only their civil rights but have had their land, communities, homes and the very basis of their existence ripped from under them have a tendency to fight back. Do you think for one second that we would not do the same?

 

Sectarianism is a symptom not the fundamental cause.

 

The British Empire was responsible for many of the underlying conflicts in the world. Thier policy of 'divide and rule' may have been ideal in terms of controlling the colonised but the legacy lives on in Kashmir, Cyprus, Iraq, Sudan, Sri Lanka, Northern Ireland, Palestine, etc.

 

I take a stand on Palestine because, of all the devious actions of Perfidious Albion, namely the betrayal of the Palestinians in terms of the Balfour Declaration by the British government in 1919, this was the one with the most dire of consequences to not just the Middle East but to the world in general. Britain held the mandate to protect those people but they opened the door for the Zionist takeover of the Protectorate. British capitulation in 1947/48 to the Zionist terror gangs, Stern and Irgun, paved the way for the ultimate tragic consequences for the Palestinians for which they have paid dearly ever since. Effectively they have paid the price of the European Holocaust.

 

Anti-British maybe, but I have marched on many occasions in protest at Israeli war crimes and have been in the company on these marches with 'Scottish Jews for a Just Peace'.

 

As far as Northern Ireland is concerned I have no truck with sectarianism on either side of the divide. That does not prevent me from stating the historical facts which are the basis of the troubles over the centuries.

 

I hate these kind of debates in a football context, so I'll debate this purely on it's political merits. If the British empire was such a force for evil, how come the British are remembered with strong affection in many of the former empire states? How come we receive applications for Commonwealth membership from states that were not even members of the original empire? Mozambique joining in 1995 and Rwanda joining this year, plus several other applicants?

 

As with any other major empire, there were mistakes and atrocities, but the British empire can be seen in as much a context of a tremendous civilising force as it can a maloevolent empire acting under self intrest. One of the countries that benefitted most from empire was of course, Scotland.

 

Isn't it ironic that those who hold strong left wing convictions tend to be amongst those least tolerant of other political views? In that they act like facists.

[Boris]

Isn't it ironic that those who hold strong left wing convictions tend to be amongst those least tolerant of other political views? In that they act like facists.

 

If arguing against a political view makes you intolerant then where stands democracy?

 

How ironic.

[Martin_T]

If arguing against a political view makes you intolerant then where stands democracy?

 

How ironic.

 

Boris, you are a communist, where stands democracy?

[Drew Busby !]

The thread wasn't intended to be about the pros/cons, and relative evils of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in particular. That kind of stuff is for the shed.

 

I posted it here, because the STUC story encapsulated the extremely unwelcome, not to say naive, intrusion by the STUC ... of gesture politics into the game of football. Is Celtics fixture a football game (yes) or is it a vehicle for trade-union sponsored protest, in an area of geo-politics way beyond their remit (no, football clubs and fans should not be used in this way).

 

I echo Geoff's question above ... "Do we agree that a football match is an appropriate vehicle for ANY political cause?"

[Miller Jambo 60]

I wonder why the dhims didn't wave Palestinian flags in the away tie.....

 

I think something more than a football match would have kicked off.

[Boris]

Boris, you are a communist, where stands democracy?

 

With the people!

 

[Jambof3tornado]

The thread wasn't intended to be about the pros/cons, and relative evils of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in particular. That kind of stuff is for the shed.

 

I posted it here, because the STUC story encapsulated the extremely unwelcome, not to say naive, intrusion by the STUC ... of gesture politics into the game of football. Is Celtics fixture a football game (yes) or is it a vehicle for trade-union sponsored protest, in an area of geo-politics way beyond their remit (no, football clubs and fans should not be used in this way).

 

I echo Geoff's question above ... "Do we agree that a football match is an appropriate vehicle for ANY political cause?"[/QUOTE]

 

No,football matches are for football fans and politics shouldnt come into it,whether on the pitch on in the stands.

 

If the STUC weant to protest do it away from football,we all know that some idiots will wave anything they think means something regardless of whether it does or doesnt(or regardless of whether it has anything to do with football or not).

[redjambo]

Quite frankly, your view is no more and no less valid than anyone else's. Do you agree that a football match is an appropriate vehicle for ANY political cause?

 

And that is the nub of the question. I must admit that I don't feel 100% comfortable that some people use sporting occasions as a means of propagating their political views. On the other hand however, an occasion such as an internationally-televised football match offers an incredible opportunity to put your viewpoint across and thus I have no real problem to individuals doing so as the right to express your opinions should be supported.

 

I guess what makes me particularly uneasy here is that some group outwith the fanbase is trying to encourage the fans to demonstrate about something that they may know very little indeed. It's almost like a mass marketing exercise. My personal viewpoint is more of a pro-Palestinian one (since I think they have got and are getting the raw end of the deal) but the sort of black and white simplistic politicking by the STUC will, in my opinion, do nothing to solve the very complex situation in Israel/Palestine. It sets a bad precedent - the idea of outside groups trying to use mass groups of fans at football games to market their ideas, and indeed products, is not one that I can support.

 

In saying that, even if it were a fan-led initiative, I'd have to question what such a display would actually achieve. It just doesn't seem very constructive, and the only way peace will be achieved in the Middle East is through constructive means.

[colinmaroon]

If arguing against a political view makes you intolerant then where stands democracy?

 

How ironic.

 

Argiung about your beliefs, point of view etc. should not be suppressed, with the exception of what should be obvious exceptions. (e.g. those who "preach" violence against someone who differs from them).

 

To "preach" that Christianity, or Islam, or atheism, or communism etc., is "right" before man, without violent suppression of that belief or that right, should be a freedom that any healthy society tolerates.

 

That is exactly the point though. We are not, nor ever really have been healthy in that sense.

 

There are always those who will abuse you, sack you, hit you, jail you or kill you because you voice your beliefs - and please don't give me, we should all keep it to ourselves - if that was applied evenly across the board then just think where we would end up - exactly where we are.

 

 

 

 

 

..............

[billco98]

Do you agree that a football match is an appropriate vehicle for ANY political cause?

 

No, not ANY political cause but there are some exceptions to the rule. South African Apartheid policies warranted the demonstrations at Rugby and Cricket internationals - demonstrations which took place in other countries as well as the UK and which ultimately lead to the boycotts against South Africa which eventually brought them to their senses.

 

After the events of Dec/Jan 2008/09 in Gaza there is no doubt in my mind that peaceful demonstrations reflecting the desperate plight of Palestinians at the hands of successive right wing Israeli governments are warranted and a UEFA football match with TV coverage across the world including Israel, and indeed Gaza, is a reasonable platform for expressions of solidarity with Palestinians and abhorance for the terrorist pariah state which Israel has become.

[Baird, King and Michael]

- the idea of outside groups trying to use mass groups of fans at football games to market their ideas, and indeed products, is not one that I can support.

 

In saying that, even if it were a fan-led initiative, I'd have to question what such a display would actually achieve. It just doesn't seem very constructive, and the only way peace will be achieved in the Middle East is through constructive means.

 

Market ideas and products? It's not Coca Cola flags that are being distributed. What the display is trying to achieve is an expression of solidarity with a people who have suffered greatly.

 

The STUC?s official statement says,

 

Scottish Trades Union Congress (STUC) Deputy General Secretary Dave Moxham said:

 

?This December marks the one year anniversary of the Israeli invasion of Gaza in which 1400 men, women and children were killed in an act described by the United Nations as ?indicating serious violations of international human rights? and ?amounting to war crimes, and possibly crimes against humanity.?

 

?Israel also continues to flout international law through its illegal occupation, through increasing settlements and building its so-called security wall which separates Palestinians, family from family and community from community.?

 

?When the Israel team Hapoel Tel Aviv visit Celtic Park on Wednesday night, millions around the world will be watching including those living in Israel and Palestine.

 

?I am today writing to Celtic FC and Hapoel Tel Aviv FC outlining the reasons and purpose of this call and making clear that we attach no blame either to Hapoel Tel Aviv players, nor their fans, for the outrageous actions of their government.

 

?We hope that Celtic fans will join with us in a demonstration of support for a just and lasting peace in Israel/Palestine based on a safe and secure Palestinian homeland living side by side with Israel.?

[Boris]

Market ideas and products? It's not Coca Cola flags that are being distributed. What the display is trying to achieve is an expression of solidarity with a people who have suffered greatly.

 

The STUC?s official statement says,

 

Scottish Trades Union Congress (STUC) Deputy General Secretary Dave Moxham said:

 

?This December marks the one year anniversary of the Israeli invasion of Gaza in which 1400 men, women and children were killed in an act described by the United Nations as ?indicating serious violations of international human rights? and ?amounting to war crimes, and possibly crimes against humanity.?

 

?Israel also continues to flout international law through its illegal occupation, through increasing settlements and building its so-called security wall which separates Palestinians, family from family and community from community.?

 

?When the Israel team Hapoel Tel Aviv visit Celtic Park on Wednesday night, millions around the world will be watching including those living in Israel and Palestine.

 

?I am today writing to Celtic FC and Hapoel Tel Aviv FC outlining the reasons and purpose of this call and making clear that we attach no blame either to Hapoel Tel Aviv players, nor their fans, for the outrageous actions of their government.

 

?We hope that Celtic fans will join with us in a demonstration of support for a just and lasting peace in Israel/Palestine based on a safe and secure Palestinian homeland living side by side with Israel.?

 

 

That statement sounds too even handed to have come from that bastion of left wing, communist, crypto-fascist anti-semites the STUC.

[shaun.lawson]

Isn't it ironic that those who hold strong left wing convictions tend to be amongst those least tolerant of other political views? In that they act like facists.

 

As an aside, I agree with this. Most of the most enjoyable political debates I've had over the years have been with right wingers - because right wingers often seem a lot less easily offended. I refer to the kinds of people you've mentioned above as "left wing bigots".

[redjambo]

Market ideas and products? It's not Coca Cola flags that are being distributed. What the display is trying to achieve is an expression of solidarity with a people who have suffered greatly.

 

The STUC?s official statement says,

 

Scottish Trades Union Congress (STUC) Deputy General Secretary Dave Moxham said:

 

?This December marks the one year anniversary of the Israeli invasion of Gaza in which 1400 men, women and children were killed in an act described by the United Nations as ?indicating serious violations of international human rights? and ?amounting to war crimes, and possibly crimes against humanity.?

 

?Israel also continues to flout international law through its illegal occupation, through increasing settlements and building its so-called security wall which separates Palestinians, family from family and community from community.?

 

?When the Israel team Hapoel Tel Aviv visit Celtic Park on Wednesday night, millions around the world will be watching including those living in Israel and Palestine.

 

?I am today writing to Celtic FC and Hapoel Tel Aviv FC outlining the reasons and purpose of this call and making clear that we attach no blame either to Hapoel Tel Aviv players, nor their fans, for the outrageous actions of their government.

 

?We hope that Celtic fans will join with us in a demonstration of support for a just and lasting peace in Israel/Palestine based on a safe and secure Palestinian homeland living side by side with Israel.?

 

No, in this case it is a political viewpoint, not a product, but that too will come at some point - it is after all an extension of the use of a support as a marketing tool.

 

Do you honestly think that the Israel/Palestine situation will be ameliorated by this action? The fact is that it is more likely to entrench attitudes even further, on both sides. Now if the call had to been for the Celtic support to fly peace flags on behalf of all those on both sides who have suffered, and to represent the hope that one day a peaceful settlement will be reached, then that might have been a nice thoughtful constructive move.

[The People's Chimp]

I find the assertion that "politics and sport should not mix" to be quite British. Go to Italy, Spain or France and politics are behind many of the supporter's club, clubs have direct links to political organisations on both sides of the political divide and it is seen as a big part of the make up of the support of those teams, almost a part of what supporting that team means.

 

Of course, where in Scotland much of that meaning is taken by some to include sectarian viewpoints, it's definitely less than desirable. But is it the mere fact that sectarianism replaces politics in the scottish sporting arena, that make it less desirable than in other European countires? Or is it part of that British desire, especially in modern times, to shy away from confrontation?

 

No, in this case it is a political viewpoint, not a product, but that too will come at some point - it is after all an extension of the use of a support as a marketing tool.

 

Do you honestly think that the Israel/Palestine situation will be ameliorated by this action? The fact is that it is more likely to entrench attitudes even further, on both sides. Now if the call had to been for the Celtic support to fly peace flags on behalf of all those on both sides who have suffered, and to represent the hope that one day a peaceful settlement will be reached, then that might have been a nice thoughtful constructive move.

 

Far too sensible.

[The People's Chimp]

.

[Boris]

As an aside, I agree with this. Most of the most enjoyable political debates I've had over the years have been with right wingers - because right wingers often seem a lot less easily offended. I refer to the kinds of people you've mentioned above as "left wing bigots".

 

How patronising.

[Debut 4]

Originally Posted by leginten

I dare say this statement is accurate with regard to the abuses that the Palestinians have undoubtedly suffered. But I dare say most decent, right-minded people find even more abhorrent the fact that Israel is surrounded by countries many of which have a far worse record in terms of human rights (to the extent that human rights actually exist there in the accepted sense) and some of which appear to have as their raison d'?tre the annihilation of the Jews. These states seem to slip under the radar of those posters most vehement in their condemnation of Israel.

 

I wonder how many countries in the world have done more to deserve exclusion from international sport than Israel? I'm sure there must be some. Didn't one of them host an Olympics recently?As colinmaroon says, very good post.

[Radge21]

I am involved with union activities but the STUC are way out of order.

WHAT IS THEIR STANCE ON THESE COUNTRIES WHO WANT EVERY ISRAELI OR JEW EXTERMINATED.

Gordon Smith should step up right now and warn Celtic and their vile supporters what will happen if they take such action.

But no it will be the silent and missing SPL and SPL we will all see.

Every Celtic and Rangers match screened on the television still have vile sectarian chants that they were going to take action on.

Scottish football is about to be ridiculed even more if these events unfold at Parkhead. :43:

[gorgiedad]

With one or two honourable exceptions,I think this is probably the most depressing thread I have ever read on this forum.

[shaun.lawson]

How patronising.

 

Touche! Sorry Boris: I wasn't including you in my above post, and should've got round to replying to your post the other day anyway.

[Guest Roop]

With one or two honourable exceptions,I think this is probably the most depressing thread I have ever read on this forum.

 

Finally! A post I agree with

[henry]

If Rangers or even Hearts were playing the Isreali side would the STUC have asked us to wave these flags ? The answer is NO.

 

They know that the tramps from the east end would happily get involved in this kind of thing, they might even get more people going to the game because it.