It was 20 years ago today

[Denny Crane]

Being of Eastern European stock, this sent a ripple or two through our household when it happened. Poland had just made moves towards a democracy but this confirmed to us that this time, Russia at last was to leave Europe be.

 

[Stewart MacD]

Strangely enough, large swathes of Russia are in Europe. Some sort of cohabitation is required, although it may upset the delicate sensitivities of those peacelovers in another continent across the Atlantic.

[I P Knightley]

As well as the feelings of freedom, don't forget that that particular moment was responsible for bringing us Wind of Change by The Scorpions.

 

 

 

 

(as well as widespread gangsterism and, ultimately, Vladimir Romanov)

[Buffalo Bill]

The only downer for East Germans that night was that the first person they saw on the other side was David Hasselholf but it was too late to stop it by that point.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I've been on the planet 35 years and it is quite amazing to think that I'll have lived through two of the most significant events in world history - this and 9/11.

 

Oh, and HMFC ending the trophyless years of course!!

[Boris]

I've been on the planet 35 years and it is quite amazing to think that I'll have lived through two of the most significant events in world history - this and 9/11.

 

Oh, and HMFC ending the trophyless years of course!!

 

Add in the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979 and you have gone nap.

[Boris]

Being of Eastern European stock, this sent a ripple or two through our household when it happened. Poland had just made moves towards a democracy but this confirmed to us that this time, Russia at last was to leave Europe be.

 

 

If only Uncle Sam could do the same....

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Add in the Islamic Revolution in Iran in 1979 and you have gone nap.

 

Fair point well made.

[I P Knightley]

The only downer for East Germans that night was that the first person they saw on the other side was David Hasselholf but it was too late to stop it by that point.

 

Him and the The Scorpions - party poopers, the pair of them.

[Buffalo Bill]

Him and the The Scorpions - party poopers, the pair of them.

 

 

**** those Scorpions.

 

 

That's what I'd have written on the wall.

[Miller Jambo 60]

If only Uncle Sam could do the same....

 

Boris if they had let us be in WW2 you can safely say we would not be the nation we are now.

Anyway regarding the OPs post,this was a great event in our age and remember it well.

20 years ago, where has the time gone.

 

Doug.

[Boris]

Boris if they had let us be in WW2 you can safely say we would not be the nation we are now.

Anyway regarding the OPs post,this was a great event in our age and remember it well.

20 years ago, where has the time gone.

 

Doug.

 

True Doug, but is that a good thing?

 

Thing is, the Cold War needed two to tango and neither side was "innocent".

 

As you say though, a great event in the history of the world. 14 months later we would have Operation Desert Storm.

[kitster]

Boris if they had let us be in WW2 you can safely say we would not be the nation we are now.

Anyway regarding the OPs post,this was a great event in our age and remember it well.

20 years ago, where has the time gone.

 

Doug.

 

Doug on whose words have you reached that conclusion? My GF fought in WW2 was a chindit fought in Burma was tortured by the japanese and lost many of his friends but got out alive to tell his story. He would always have told you the yanks were the biggest liability they had in their challenge there.

[Say What Again]

As well as the feelings of freedom, don't forget that that particular moment was responsible for bringing us Wind of Change by The Scorpions.

 

Am I the only one who whistled after I read that?

 

 

 

 

Probably.

 

[Miller Jambo 60]

Doug on whose words have you reached that conclusion? My GF fought in WW2 was a chindit fought in Burma was tortured by the japanese and lost many of his friends but got out alive to tell his story. He would always have told you the yanks were the biggest liability they had in their challenge there.

 

Im sure your grandad had more first hand experiece of the yanks than me.

Im just looking at the bigger picture.

My 2 GF who fought in the war never mentioned the yanks.

Maybe something in that too.

 

Doug.

[Say What Again]

My 2 GF who fought in the war never mentioned the yanks.

Maybe something in that too.

 

Like Kitser, my great uncle fought in Burma. He pretty much brought me up so I spent many, many hours in his company. I loved his stories of the war and chummed him to Burma Star meetings, remembrance day, the Royal Scots museum etc.

 

He never mentioned the Americans either. If he did, it certainly wasn't negative.

[Auld Reekin']

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miller Jambo 60

Boris if they had let us be in WW2 you can safely say we would not be the nation we are now.

Anyway regarding the OPs post,this was a great event in our age and remember it well.

20 years ago, where has the time gone.

 

Doug.

 

Doug on whose words have you reached that conclusion? My GF fought in WW2 was a chindit fought in Burma was tortured by the japanese and lost many of his friends but got out alive to tell his story. He would always have told you the yanks were the biggest liability they had in their challenge there.

 

Doug's point first:

 

As described in detail in Peter Fleming's book "Operation Sea Lion" (Hitler's code name for the proposed invasion of Britain), the "best" time for nazi Germany to have invaded Britain would have been in the two or three months immediately following the Dunkirk evacuation. This was in the summer of 1940 which was, of course, well before the USA got involved in WW2. In spite of being urged to proceed by many of his senior commanders and advisors, Hitler - luckily for all of us - decided against proceeding with the proposed invasion at this point.

 

This is not to say that, after this, the direct danger to Britain itself and to the Allied cause in any way disappeared, but that moment of absolute crisis for Britain had passed. Clearly, the USA actively adding their military capabilities to the Allied cause on December 11 1941 had a huge effect on the length of the conflict and the eventual outcome, but it is overly simplistic to say that Britain would inevitably have fallen to an invasion by the Axis powers without the USA joining the Allied forces when they did.

 

Adding to Kitster's comment, my father - well into his 50s when I showed up! - served in a glider regiment during WW2. He told me that he and his comrades used to dread the occasions when they were being towed by US pilots as, at the first sign of any anti-aircraft fire, the gliders would be released - whether anywhere near their target areas or not - and the US pilots would turn-tail and head back to their bases at top speed!

 

Contrary to what some in the USA like to believe, and to what was and is usually portrayed by Hollywood, they did not win WW2 single-handed nor was their contribution always valiant, positive, or valuable...

[Boris]

That was a really interesting post Auld Reekin' - especially the part about the US pilots dropping the gliders.

 

Ironically, given the nature of the OP, the people we should really thank for winning WWII are the Soviets!

[kitster]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miller Jambo 60

Boris if they had let us be in WW2 you can safely say we would not be the nation we are now.

Anyway regarding the OPs post,this was a great event in our age and remember it well.

20 years ago, where has the time gone.

 

Doug.

 

 

 

Doug's point first:

 

As described in detail in Peter Fleming's book "Operation Sea Lion" (Hitler's code name for the proposed invasion of Britain), the "best" time for nazi Germany to have invaded Britain would have been in the two or three months immediately following the Dunkirk evacuation. This was in the summer of 1940 which was, of course, well before the USA got involved in WW2. In spite of being urged to proceed by many of his senior commanders and advisors, Hitler - luckily for all of us - decided against proceeding with the proposed invasion at this point.

 

This is not to say that, after this, the direct danger to Britain itself and to the Allied cause in any way disappeared, but that moment of absolute crisis for Britain had passed. Clearly, the USA actively adding their military capabilities to the Allied cause on December 11 1941 had a huge effect on the length of the conflict and the eventual outcome, but it is overly simplistic to say that Britain would inevitably have fallen to an invasion by the Axis powers without the USA joining the Allied forces when they did.

 

Adding to Kitster's comment, my father - well into his 50s when I showed up! - served in a glider regiment during WW2. He told me that he and his comrades used to dread the occasions when they were being towed by US pilots as, at the first sign of any anti-aircraft fire, the gliders would be released - whether anywhere near their target areas or not - and the US pilots would turn-tail and head back to their bases at top speed!

 

Contrary to what some in the USA like to believe, and to what was and is usually portrayed by Hollywood, they did not win WW2 single-handed nor was their contribution always valiant, positive, or valuable...

 

I only know what he told me really and I was so young I struggled to understand what he felt back then..but as a young very fit man recruited aged 19 just as he was in the TA football team...until yesterday I didnt even know he code breaked for a while. I'm so very very proud of him.

[Auld Reekin']

That was a really interesting post Auld Reekin' - especially the part about the US pilots dropping the gliders.

 

Ironically, given the nature of the OP, the people we should really thank for winning WWII are the Soviets!

 

Well, Hitler's decision to break with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact by embarking on the nazi invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 is interesting both in terms of the decision itself and the timing of Operation Barbarossa.

 

As a "pact of convenience" for both sides, and given the huge ideological differences between nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, it was inevitable that this agreement would be breached by one side or the other at some stage.

 

However, given the fact that the invasion commenced on 22 June 1941, six months before the USA entered the war, it was a decision that would have had the effect of weakening the military strength (and the impetus for any future invasion of Britain) of the nazi regime regardless of what happened subsequently.

[Boris]

Well, Hitler's decision to break with Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact by embarking on the nazi invasion of the Soviet Union in 1941 is interesting both in terms of the decision itself and the timing of Operation Barbarossa.

 

As a "pact of convenience" for both sides, and given the huge ideological differences between nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, it was inevitable that this agreement would be breached by one side or the other at some stage.

 

However, given the fact that the invasion commenced on 22 June 1941, six months before the USA entered the war, it was a decision that would have had the effect of weakening the military strength (and the impetus for any future invasion of Britain) of the nazi regime regardless of what happened subsequently.

 

Barbarossa was actually planned to take place in April/May, but the Italian adventure in Greece led the the German's bailing them out while conquering the Balkans.

 

One of Hitler's biggest errors was declaring war on the USA after Pearl Harbor, expecting the Japanese to do the same with the Soviets.

[Captain America]

Thread title misleading!

 

Here me thinking it was a thread about the Beatles.

 

[Denny Crane]

That was a really interesting post Auld Reekin' - especially the part about the US pilots dropping the gliders.

 

Ironically, given the nature of the OP, the people we should really thank for winning WWII are the Soviets!

 

True. But glorious in victory they were not.

[Boris]

True. But glorious in victory they were not.

 

Yes, I'll give you that but I also don't think any of the Allies really were either....

[bigwull22]

20 years united and the haven't started a war yet, must be some kind of record for a United Germany, mind you our records not too clever either over the years

[jambo-fletch]

That sgt pepper told the band to play.........

[Denny Crane]

Yes, I'll give you that but I also don't think any of the Allies really were either....

 

But their misdeeds were nothing compared to occupying half of Europe and making returning Poles, Czechs, et al disappear on arrival thus making it impossible for those who wanted to go home to do so. My own grandfather left Poznan in 1939. It wasn't until 1990 that he felt it safe to go back.

 

I know you (on the surface anyway - though I stand corrected) have some misty, romantic notion of the Soviet Union Boris but that four decade occupation was unforgivable. Yes Churchill & Roosevelt were culpable for giving Stalin the green light to implement this but the ultimate execution of this policy belonged to Moscow.

[Boris]

But their misdeeds were nothing compared to occupying half of Europe and making returning Poles, Czechs, et al disappear on arrival thus making it impossible for those who wanted to go home to do so. My own grandfather left Poznan in 1939. It wasn't until 1990 that he felt it safe to go back.

 

I know you (on the surface anyway - though I stand corrected) have some misty, romantic notion of the Soviet Union Boris but that four decade occupation was unforgivable. Yes Churchill & Roosevelt were culpable for giving Stalin the green light to implement this but the ultimate execution of this policy belonged to Moscow.

 

Stalinism affected the people of the Soviet Union too! Many Heroes of the Great Patriotic War were disappeared as well, even their most famous General, Zhukov, was essentially placed in exile.

 

I make no argument in defence of the Stalinist regime post war and for the policies carried out by the puppet regimes installed and although this is not an excuse, but Poland itself was hardly a model democracy pre War.

 

Funnily enough we are still dealing with the fallout of one post war decision - namely the Palestinian/Israeli problem. Yeah the West!

[Scotland]

I love these wee google logo things. Featured on Google Germany Today:

[Denny Crane]

Stalinism affected the people of the Soviet Union too! Many Heroes of the Great Patriotic War were disappeared as well, even their most famous General, Zhukov, was essentially placed in exile.

 

I make no argument in defence of the Stalinist regime post war and for the policies carried out by the puppet regimes installed and although this is not an excuse, but Poland itself was hardly a model democracy pre War.

 

Funnily enough we are still dealing with the fallout of one post war decision - namely the Palestinian/Israeli problem. Yeah the West!

 

While you are right about the pre-war Polish govt there is one fundamental difference. My relations could leave and return (which the Silesian branch would often do) without fear of being 'disappeared' when they came back.