Was it a Penalty? (merged threads)

[Biko]

Just back and not seen it again but for me Boyd fouled before the penalty incident.

Exactly, play should have been stopped long before it went anywhere near the box.

[Victorian]

I think it's patently clear to anyone who has, you know, eyes, that it was outside the box. But it's happened before, and it'll happen again. No amount of moaning and bitching will make any difference now.

 

Save that for when "things even themselves out" by Celtic being given one against us too.

 

IJ this is an excellent point.

 

rangers will sleep well tonight because they know that celtic will get the same. they will always convince themselves that they deserve anything going because celtic will always be liable to get the same breaks.

 

in their world, as you say, things will even out.

 

where does that leave everyone else?

 

crying foul and getting very little sympathy.

[Shinzo]

Plus the ref correctly sent Thomson off for a foul many wouldn't have dismissed him for.

 

Corruption, my arse.

 

So...who and what are the "many" referess who wouldn't have dismissed him,given that it was the correct decision?

[Pistol1874]

Maybe that is why Boyd came on, they knew it was coming!!

 

As he came on, I said to my mate 'he's coming on to take their penalty'. Lo and behold the ref can't see Boyd's foul but almost blew before the challenge for penalty.

Ourselves to blame though, chances to seal the win but gave them the momentum second half by sitting too deep.

[Gambo]

Was it just me who thought one of the Rangers defenders (Bougherra?) blatantly armed the ball away from Witeveen in the box in the second half? He knew he was the right side of the ref and linesman for them not to see it. Witeveen seemed to be claiming for it, too.

 

That is what i thought.

[shaun.lawson]

So...who and what are the "many" referess who wouldn't have dismissed him,given that it was the correct decision?

 

Loads of 'em. It was early in the game, and many would've given him a yellow and a final warning. That's the problem when we call for refs to employ "common sense" - because one ref's version of it isn't another's. Ditto that football has laws, but not rules: meaning they're always open to interpretation.

 

It shouldn't be this way: every referee should always send a player off for a challenge like that. But that's not how it seems to play out; and certainly not just in Scotland either.

[kitster]

Loads of 'em. It was early in the game, and many would've given him a yellow and a final warning. That's the problem when we call for refs to employ "common sense" - because one ref's version of it isn't another's. Ditto that football has laws, but not rules: meaning they're always open to interpretation.

 

It shouldn't be this way: every referee should always send a player off for a challenge like that. But that's not how it seems to play out; and certainly not just in Scotland either.

 

I'm sorry but the sooner football drags itself in to the technical age the better Shaun. I'm all for transparency and accountability. I will always accept a decision against Hearts on merit if its justified but I am simply really sick of the way things are right now. Wrong decisions cost clubs money..if it stops play for a minute at controversial moments I'm sure most fans would agree its worth it if the right decision is made. Too many really really ropy decisions against us now and no consistency in referees whatsoever. Scottish football is becoming a joke and tonight I'm not very proud of that.

[Buffalo Bill]

We should never have let them get into a place where they could win a penalty; dodgy or not.

 

 

Sorry folks, but we ****ing blew it today.

[Scotland]

" So let me check that again; you want a penalty in the 89th minute, an in return you'll give me How much? "

 

No, on a serious note, BB is exactly right:

We should never have let them get into a place where they could win a penalty; dodgy or not.

 

 

Sorry folks' date=' but we ****ing blew it today. [/quote']

 

After the second half performance we deserved **** All.

[shaun.lawson]

I'm sorry but the sooner football drags itself in to the technical age the better Shaun. I'm all for transparency and accountability. I will always accept a decision against Hearts on merit if its justified but I am simply really sick of the way things are right now. Wrong decisions cost clubs money..if it stops play for a minute at controversial moments I'm sure most fans would agree its worth it if the right decision is made. Too many really really ropy decisions against us now and no consistency in referees whatsoever. Scottish football is becoming a joke and tonight I'm not very proud of that.

 

100% agree, and I've been on about goalline technology for many years now. But it'll probably take decades to employ it for other decisions too. The penalty earlier happened at high speed, and the ref had a split second to decide. It's a ****ing difficult job: far, far tougher than most appreciate.

[bigwull22]

Witenveen's clearly, theirs I was in the process of leaving due to our giving the GFA yet another chance to cheat I dont know. From what I have heard not a chance. Nothing changes in Scotland

[Piper X]

Just back and not seen it again but for me Boyd fouled before the penalty incident.

100% Spot on.

Infact when the whistle went, I thought for a split second we were getting the free kick.

 

 

 

Then the reality of the fact it was the last minute, we were playing one of the old firm, and they werent winning.....

[colinmaroon]

Here's the first part of an email I've just received from a pastor in North carolina (converted to a Jambo during a visit in 2006)

 

Dear Christian Brother,

 

"An absolutely unreal week for Hearts. I was gutted to see them lose today, at home, to Gers, on a phony penalty. So goes Scottish football"

 

 

 

Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings!!!

 

 

...............

[kitster]

100% agree, and I've been on about goalline technology for many years now. But it'll probably take decades to employ it for other decisions too. The penalty earlier happened at high speed, and the ref had a split second to decide. It's a ****ing difficult job: far, far tougher than most appreciate.

 

hence why you need a video a monitor and a replay Shaun..rugby does it..why won't football? It's too commercial a business now to have such utter luddites dragging their heels about the essence and spirit of the game. I suspect there are many reasons why many don't want it. Being a fan of a team who is constantly on the firing line of everything I am all for it as we have nothing to lose ..heaven forbid but we could actually gain from it.

[Malinga the Swinga]

But if you had video technology, how would refs manage to favout the Old Firm. Guess a few cameras would suddenly fail to work.

[shaun.lawson]

hence why you need a video a monitor and a replay Shaun..rugby does it..why won't football? It's too commercial a business now to have such utter luddites dragging their heels about the essence and spirit of the game. I suspect there are many reasons why many don't want it. Being a fan of a team who is constantly on the firing line of everything I am all for it as we have nothing to lose ..heaven forbid but we could actually gain from it.

 

I think the biggest single reason it hasn't been brought in is cost. Rugby has, what, half a dozen top flight union or league games each weekend? Football has miles more matches each week across England and Scotland; and how could poorer clubs afford it?

[kitster]

I think the biggest single reason it hasn't been brought in is cost. Rugby has, what, half a dozen top flight union or league games each weekend? Football has miles more matches each week across England and Scotland; and how could poorer clubs afford it?

 

I don't think its needed right across the board Shaun..every SPL match should be covered by video technology. As for funding well there's the GFA the SPL TV cash the clubs and the fans. You sure we couldn't afford it? I think we can it would just expose some who never want the status quo to change.

[shaun.lawson]

I don't think its needed right across the board Shaun..every SPL match should be covered by video technology. As for funding well there's the GFA the SPL TV cash the clubs and the fans. You sure we couldn't afford it? I think we can it would just expose some who never want the status quo to change.

 

If it came in in the Scottish top flight, it'd have to come in in every top flight everywhere, and lower divisions too. Otherwise, we'd be playing by different sets of rules in effect. And it's never, ever to protect the status quo that it hasn't been implemented thus far: it's a FIFA matter, and Blatter is implacably opposed.

[I.J]

I'd quite like video evidence for Real Maroon games on Saturday mornings.

 

I'd also quite like referees who don't abandon games midway through the first half to go for a sh*te, but that's by the by.

 

[kitster]

If it came in in the Scottish top flight, it'd have to come in in every top flight everywhere, and lower divisions too. Otherwise, we'd be playing by different sets of rules in effect. And it's never, ever to protect the status quo that it hasn't been implemented thus far: it's a FIFA matter, and Blatter is implacably opposed.

 

I know it's a FIFA matter Shaun..but you still have to ask yourself why? Wouldn't it be a great game without corruption and favourites? I'm so for it I actually want to start a facebook group on the matter. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. Ca c'est le vrai.

[shaun.lawson]

I know it's a FIFA matter Shaun..but you still have to ask yourself why? Wouldn't it be a great game without corruption and favourites? I'm so for it I actually want to start a facebook group on the matter. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear. Ca c'est le vrai.

 

I agree - but can't see it happening any time soon I'm afraid. If you start a FB group though, I'll join. It worked for Bryan Gunn's daughter!

[Gigolo-Aunt]

My first reaction was it was a penalty. Looking at the pic posted, it looks outside the box (just)

 

Did the referee give it on his own, or was it down to the linesman who was nearer the incident?

 

As for video technology...

 

Once its introduced in to the game, it will take over it. Pens and goals first, then free kicks in a certain area, throw in's etc etc etc.

 

I would leave it be tbh.

[maroonedinbriz]

No point in complaining too much. We played against 10 men for most of the game and got run ragged in the second half. Lack off balls again, hell, how many times have I had to say/think that as a Jambo?

[Mr Brightside]

Just back and not seen it again but for me Boyd fouled before the penalty incident.

 

I agree I thought both aerial challenges Boyd went for he was bcking in.

[cylawny]

I agree I thought both aerial challenges Boyd went for he was bcking in.

 

No pen, original offence outside the box !!!!

[kitster]

My first reaction was it was a penalty. Looking at the pic posted, it looks outside the box (just)

 

Did the referee give it on his own, or was it down to the linesman who was nearer the incident?

 

As for video technology...

 

Once its introduced in to the game, it will take over it. Pens and goals first, then free kicks in a certain area, throw in's etc etc etc.

 

I would leave it be tbh.

 

Leave it be? Why? It's fair and will happen at one point anyway. Why not now I say. It wont take over at all rugby's still a watchable sport but certain flashpoints need another view. It would probably cut out a lot of the rubbish on KB as well. No debate.

[I.J]

It would probably cut out a lot of the rubbish on KB as well.

 

Too far.

 

:laugh::laugh:

[blairdin]

I'd quite like video evidence for Real Maroon games on Saturday mornings.

 

Good call - it would justify every rant I've ever had at your back 4 in my few cameo appearances.

 

If it came in in the Scottish top flight, it'd have to come in in every top flight everywhere, and lower divisions too. Otherwise, we'd be playing by different sets of rules in effect. And it's never, ever to protect the status quo that it hasn't been implemented thus far: it's a FIFA matter, and Blatter is implacably opposed.

 

Don't agree Shaun. I used to be dead against it, but after taking in a few CFL games where big decisions were challenged last summer I'm a convert.

 

Guys playing in lower division/lower league canadian football, american footbal, ice hockey, etc don't expect video evidence. But in the top leagues where marginal decisions affect clubs in terms of revenue and tens of thousands of fans in the stadium, its different. I like to think if Hearts were on the receiving end of a penalty decision like that in 5 years time our then manager would be able to use one of his allotted video referee challenges to ensure the decision was just.

[rich-1874]

in real time i thought it was, but having seen it back... i dont think so now.

 

video evidence is a splendid idea:10900:

[shaun.lawson]

 

Don't agree Shaun. I used to be dead against it, but after taking in a few CFL games where big decisions were challenged last summer I'm a convert.

 

Guys playing in lower division/lower league canadian football, american footbal, ice hockey, etc don't expect video evidence. But in the top leagues where marginal decisions affect clubs in terms of revenue and tens of thousands of fans in the stadium, its different. I like to think if Hearts were on the receiving end of a penalty decision like that in 5 years time our then manager would be able to use one of his allotted video referee challenges to ensure the decision was just.

 

I'm not against it blair - and have already joined kitster's group! I just don't think it'll happen any time soon.

[I.J]

Good call - it would justify every rant I've ever had at your back 4 in my few cameo appearances.

 

Mate, have we ever won when you've played?!!!

 

Don't agree Shaun. I used to be dead against it, but after taking in a few CFL games where big decisions were challenged last summer I'm a convert.

 

Guys playing in lower division/lower league canadian football, american footbal, ice hockey, etc don't expect video evidence. But in the top leagues where marginal decisions affect clubs in terms of revenue and tens of thousands of fans in the stadium, its different. I like to think if Hearts were on the receiving end of a penalty decision like that in 5 years time our then manager would be able to use one of his allotted video referee challenges to ensure the decision was just.

 

That's pretty much how I see it. The NFL uses video evidence when needed, but when high school games are being played (which by the way in terms of attendance are far bigger than a lot of Scottish League games) there's no video evidence, just the official's decision. With the amount of money that even the difference between 6th and 7th place can cost in the SPL (let alone what a disallowed goal in the Champions League semi final could), it's only a matter of time before FIFA is forced to accept it.

[HelloSunshine]

Soft to call a foul IMO, hard to see if in the box from sec G, but looked to be outside...then I saw the ref point to the spot.

Thought there were worse offences in both boxes during the match, but would like to see on TV.

[blairdin]

Mate, have we ever won when you've played?!!!

 

Livingston away last season. Aided by a stunning save at the start of the second half if I do say so myself. 1 win in 3 appearances.

 

 

 

That's pretty much how I see it. The NFL uses video evidence when needed, but when high school games are being played (which by the way in terms of attendance are far bigger than a lot of Scottish League games) there's no video evidence, just the official's decision. With the amount of money that even the difference between 6th and 7th place can cost in the SPL (let alone what a disallowed goal in the Champions League semi final could), it's only a matter of time before FIFA is forced to accept it.

 

Now that I think about, I thought UEFA were piloting extra officals behind the goals in the EUROPA league this season?

 

But agree, it's a matter of time.

[Thunderstruck]

Yes, it does. Did the ref get the benefit of a freeze frame, or was he watching it at normal speed? At normal speed, as soon as the incident occurred, my instinct was to look at the ref in panic.

 

By the way, I can't remember who it was (Goncalves maybe?), but I'm sure there was an accidental handball in our box at one point. And I hope the stonewaller people are on about wasn't Witteveen going down after next to nothing, which would've been an unbelievably soft award. Plus the ref correctly sent Thomson off for a foul many wouldn't have dismissed him for.

 

Corruption, my arse.

 

Seen side-on from Section W, it was a clear push by Booger unless Witteveen is able to defy the laws of physics. Assistant Ref on Wheatfield side had an equally clear view.

 

Based on today alone, it is hard to lay a charge of corruption on Referees but, when viewed over several decades, I am quite convinced that some level of corruption or connivance exists. The laws of probabilty stand squarely against the level of favourable and game-changing decisions enjoyed by the Old Firm.

[rich-1874]

when we all sing, its just superb. The hair stands up at the back of the head. we start singing away up in gorgie, and stuggle to get to 2nd verse. But the ole family enclosure and the mad section is priceless:10900:

[shaun.lawson]

Seen side-on from Section W, it was a clear push by Booger unless Witteveen is able to defy the laws of physics. Assistant Ref on Wheatfield side had an equally clear view.

 

Based on today alone, it is hard to lay a charge of corruption on Referees but, when viewed over several decades, I am quite convinced that some level of corruption or connivance exists. The laws of probabilty stand squarely against the level of favourable and game-changing decisions enjoyed by the Old Firm.

 

If you and I are talking about the same incident (and I can't be sure until the highlights are up later), I'd have laughed my head off had a pen been given. It was nothing, and Witteveen went down like a sack of spuds.

 

More generally though, I agree. To my mind, bias is inevitable in a country in which two clubs are so institutionally dominant that Celtic or Rangers fans are bound to become managers, players, journalists, administrators and officials. And the SFA or SPL don't ask refs to declare club allegiances because if they did, there'd barely be any refs left!

 

Bear in mind too that throughout the world, big clubs invariably get all the decisions going. No country seems to be immune - and I'm not sure that that's corruption as much as human nature and more unwitting bias, except in recently reported cases in Italy and Germany.

[jdl2002]

If you and I are talking about the same incident (and I can't be sure until the highlights are up later), I'd have laughed my head off had a pen been given. It was nothing, and Witteveen went down like a sack of spuds.

 

More generally though, I agree. To my mind, bias is inevitable in a country in which two clubs are so institutionally dominant that Celtic or Rangers fans are bound to become managers, players, journalists, administrators and officials. And the SFA or SPL don't ask refs to declare club allegiances because if they did, there'd barely be any refs left!

 

Bear in mind too that throughout the world, big clubs invariably get all the decisions going. No country seems to be immune - and I'm not sure that that's corruption as much as human nature and more unwitting bias, except in recently reported cases in Italy and Germany.

 

in that case why do we bother playing against them?

[shaun.lawson]

in that case why do we bother playing against them?

 

Good question! But watch the EPL this season: watch how many dodgy pens, opponents sent off etc the Big Four (or maybe Big Five given City are so wealthy) get. Then do the same with Barca and Real in Spain; the same with Inter, Milan and Juve in Italy. It's a global phenomenon - as is, when the biggest clubs aren't involved, refs generally favouring the home team too.

 

Liverpool fans have been going on and on about the decisions Man Utd get for many years now - conveniently forgetting that they too get most of them, and were just as notorious as United are now during their heyday. Handball in the centre circle? George Courtney awards a penalty to Liverpool. Believe me, it was almost that bad: for whatever reason, it seems to go hand in hand with success.

[Thunderstruck]

If you and I are talking about the same incident (and I can't be sure until the highlights are up later), I'd have laughed my head off had a pen been given. It was nothing, and Witteveen went down like a sack of spuds.

 

I have just watched the Sky2 Highlights. Anywhere else on the pitch and that was a foul. Booger's guilty expression was telling.

 

Didn't get to see Miller's repeated attempts at dives when already on a booking and didn't get a look at McCulloch's "challenge" on Balogh.

 

As for the penalty awarded, the foul was outside the box and followed a clear foul by Boyd on Jos?.

 

As for Smith's view that Thomson never made contact with Black - he is either taking the p**s or is as dense as legend has it.

[shaun.lawson]

I have just watched the Sky2 Highlights. Anywhere else on the pitch and that was a foul. Booger's guilty expression was telling.

 

Didn't get to see Miller's repeated attempts at dives when already on a booking and didn't get a look at McCulloch's "challenge" on Balogh.

 

As for the penalty awarded, the foul was outside the box and followed a clear foul by Boyd on Jos?.

 

As for Smith's view that Thomson never made contact with Black - he is either taking the p**s or is as dense as legend has it.

 

Again, I've not seen the replays yet - but on the stream I was watching earlier, I didn't think Thomson touched Black either. Because Black took bloody necessary evasive action to stop Thomson not so much breaking his leg as separating it from the rest of his body! And as I've said already, to the naked eye and at full speed, I can easily see why the ref gave a pen against Bouzid: penalty was my first thought too.

 

Below, St Mirren v Dundee United yesterday. IMO, both sides had decent claims for penalties which weren't given: United's is early in the clip, Saints' is just after 3 minutes in. In both cases, some refs would give them, others wouldn't:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/8217050.stm

 

And at Hamilton, the home side might well have been denied a goal which looked awfully like it crossed the line to me too. Refs are crap far more than corrupt; and because football is all about opinions and interpretations, you'd really have to go some to prove corruption, as opposed to often perfectly explicable incompetence.

[Thunderstruck]

Again, I've not seen the replays yet - but on the stream I was watching earlier, I didn't think Thomson touched Black either. Because Black took bloody necessary evasive action to stop Thomson not so much breaking his leg as separating it from the rest of his body! And as I've said already, to the naked eye and at full speed, I can easily see why the ref gave a pen against Bouzid: penalty was my first thought too.

 

Below, St Mirren v Dundee United yesterday. IMO, both sides had decent claims for penalties which weren't given: United's is early in the clip, Saints' is just after 3 minutes in. In both cases, some refs would give them, others wouldn't:

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/scotland/8217050.stm

 

And at Hamilton, the home side might well have been denied a goal which looked awfully like it crossed the line to me too. Refs are crap far more than corrupt; and because football is all about opinions and interpretations, you'd really have to go some to prove corruption, as opposed to often perfectly explicable incompetence.

 

"Perfectly explicable incompetence" is fine but why, as I said earlier, should it favour the OF against the law of probability over any time period you care to choose.

 

Finding a "smoking gun" is well nigh impossible particularly when the connivance is so entrenched in the very body that would seek to root out the practice.

 

So what should we do? Grin and bear it or seek to change it?

 

The only way to sort this is, as said above, go to video review and, like tennis, allow a number of reviews per match to each team. This limits the power of the official on the pitch to "err".

[ERjambo]

But if you had video technology, how would refs manage to favout the Old Firm. Guess a few cameras would suddenly fail to work.

 

actually, there's been a few cases in rugby where decisions have gone to the video-ref and come back wrong! always borderline cases of course. but if you've seen endless replays (as i have now) of the rangers penalty, it's certainly a close call. and although i'm convinced it was JUST outside the box, i think a video-ref might easily go along with the initial decision.

 

a whole new debate would ensue no doubt. but SURELY it would be better than what we see week in/week out in the ess-pee-ell.

 

for that reason, i see no reason for the status quo to change. the GFA wouldn't want that, and most of the media in-firm/'pundits' etc will argue it's a bad idea. we'll probably get it one day. i see it as inevitable really. but not until every other backwater of football adopts it first.

 

don't hold your breath.

 

[Nelly Terraces]

Was it *****. The one where Pittenweem was barged off the ball was though.

[kitster]

actually, there's been a few cases in rugby where decisions have gone to the video-ref and come back wrong! always borderline cases of course. but if you've seen endless replays (as i have now) of the rangers penalty, it's certainly a close call. and although i'm convinced it was JUST outside the box, i think a video-ref might easily go along with the initial decision.

 

a whole new debate would ensue no doubt. but SURELY it would be better than what we see week in/week out in the ess-pee-ell.

 

for that reason, i see no reason for the status quo to change. the GFA wouldn't want that, and most of the media in-firm/'pundits' etc will argue it's a bad idea. we'll probably get it one day. i see it as inevitable really. but not until every other backwater of football adopts it first.

 

don't hold your breath.

 

 

Why hold your breath if you have something to say about the matter. Apathy rules. Just as something stands today it does not mean you cannot change it if other people agree with you. We will get it one day. I want it sooner rather than later.

[Dave Ross]

More generally though, I agree. To my mind, bias is inevitable in a country in which two clubs are so institutionally dominant that Celtic or Rangers fans are bound to become managers, players, journalists, administrators and officials.

 

Glad I know that now. I'll stop caring now.

[Guest gorgie kev]

Was it *****. The one where Pittenweem was barged off the ball was though.

 

We all know it was a pen when Vitamin C was barged of the ball.Today the refs showed they are right up the arses of the bigot brothers.

[Erik]

I said at the match that they'd win it with a late penalty that never was. Low and behold.....

 

Both our shouts (Ruben and Pitenweem) were more worthy of a penalty than their one soft shout. Which was barely a foul. And also wasnt even in the box.

[Gold fish]

ruben shoved by boughera when he looked set to head home - penalty to hearts

 

goal-machine shoved over by boughera - penalty to hearts.

[Erik]

ruben shoved by boughera when he looked set to head home - penalty to hearts

 

goal-machine shoved over by boughera - penalty to hearts.

 

Neither of these parts are true. However that doesnt change the fact that both were decent shouts for a penalty.

[ERjambo]

Why hold your breath if you have something to say about the matter. Apathy rules. Just as something stands today it does not mean you cannot change it if other people agree with you. We will get it one day. I want it sooner rather than later.

 

don't get me wrong, i want it sooner too. my point is it might not help the OF, so it probably won't happen for a while i'm afraid.