PresidentRomanov Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Nothing could be more satisfying than thousands of vermin roaring and greeting in Lochend as the locks are put on Easter Road for the last time. Wishing for Hibs to survive is essentially wishing for them to be successful, imo. As is wishing for any Hibby to be successful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therapist Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 away and lie in your own pish. Personal abuse. A clear sign you've lost the argument. Can I also take this opportunity to remind you that personal abuse is against the rules? Consequently I'd urge you to desist forthwith. Thanks for your cooperation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbo27_22 Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 What could possibly be a bigger embarrassment than being put out of existence by your biggest rivals? As i said, we must have moved in different circles. To this day, my friends and i all wish that hibs had been put of their misery and hope that one day this will happen. I've said previously, being our whipping boys is not a good enough reason for their continued existence. As I said, fair do's if that's your wish. No sweat of my brow. No sweat of the brow of the 62% who are likeminded as myself either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Don Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 You aint far wrong tbh. In all seriousness though, I wasn't on here pre VR but there was definitely scepticism about him, just not a lot due to our circumstances. The concern surrounded his failed attempts in Dundee and Dunfermline, but given the way things were going with the club, we as fans were primed to believe, we were desperate for something to believe in or someone to come and save us. At the time, if you were not as bad as CPR you were a hero. If you are talking about the rumoured attempt to buy Dundee UTD, it has been made clear on many occasions that at no point did VR attempt to buy them. VR, Foulkes and Thompson all stated this. This was a rumour drudged up by the media and it all started because VR was with Foulkes at the time and was introduced to Eddie Thompson by Foulkes at an airport terminal, some reporter put 2 and 2 together and as usual came up with 5. In essence your right about if you weren't as bad as CPR you were a hero, however the major factor was Tynecastle VR promised to keep us there. Your spot on about the other stuff, we were desperate for some white knight to come in and save us and wanted to "Believe" in anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 As is wishing for any Hibby to be successful Oh well, must be a Hibs fan. I'm sure you wish your pal Therapists Hibs supporting wife the worst, eh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therapist Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 It certainly was a hostile takeover which would've removed Hibs from the map. Thus with those words did Moira Stuart inflame the passions of Leith! Ah, Moira Stuart - she of the encyclopaedic knowledge of Scottish football. Honestly, you couldn't make it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Personally I always had my doubts.In practice it would have been a takeover and nothing was said at the time but I always had a suspicion that after a few years we would have a change of name to something with Edinburgh in it We certainly would have moved stadium, and at the time Millerhill was Mercer's favourite. I'm always surprised at Mercer's statement of surprise about "tribalism" in Edinburgh. He generally gave the impression he understood that, and seemed to actually endorse it to an extent. In his excellent The Battle for Hearts and Minds, Craig Watson quotes Dave McPherson's amazement that Mercer didn't get the tribalism (mind you, neither did I until pretty recently), and Watson himself wrote this: "Fans from both clubs were stunned. Some Hearts fans regarded the very suggestion as getting one over on their rivals and confirmation that the Gorgie club was Edinburgh's dominant force. Others were concerned about the implications for Hearts' future. The move had been described as a merger that would see the new super team playing in a purpose built out-of-town stadium but that cast doubt over everything the supporters held dear - the club's name, colours, home and history... ... Whatever the truth, it seriously damaged (Mercer's) standing among Hearts fans who began to distrust his motives and his understanding of the club's traditions". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlock Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 As I said, fair do's if that's your wish. No sweat of my brow. No sweat of the brow of the 62% who are likeminded as myself either. Oh dear. Out of those 62% who voted No & No on the poll, in your opinion how many do you reckon actually were (a) old enough to go to games back then and ( understand the situation? A couple of posters on this thread are always saying how they have their fingers on the pulse of the Hearts support. With regard the feeling of the Hearts support back at the time of the proposed takeover, they are spot on. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therapist Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 No sweat of the brow of the 62% who are likeminded as myself either. KB polls are so representative that the Electoral Commission is planning to do away with polling stations and simply have everyone vote via KB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Ah, Moira Stuart - she of the encyclopaedic knowledge of Scottish football. Honestly, you couldn't make it up. I did have my tongue firmly in my cheek when writing that, T! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 KB polls are so representative that the Electoral Commission is planning to do away with polling stations and simply have everyone vote via KB. Whereas what they should do instead is conduct all elections at whatever haunt you and your mates happen to frequent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therapist Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 In his excellent The Battle for Hearts and Minds, Craig Watson quotes Dave McPherson's amazement that Mercer didn't get the tribalism (mind you, neither did I until pretty recently), and Watson himself wrote this: "Fans from both clubs were stunned. Some Hearts fans regarded the very suggestion as getting one over on their rivals and confirmation that the Gorgie club was Edinburgh's dominant force. Others were concerned about the implications for Hearts' future. The move had been described as a merger that would see the new super team playing in a purpose built out-of-town stadium but that cast doubt over everything the supporters held dear - the club's name, colours, home and history... ... Whatever the truth, it seriously damaged (Mercer's) standing among Hearts fans who began to distrust his motives and his understanding of the club's traditions". Who is Craig Watson and what are his Hearts credentials? Oh wait, is he Moira Stuart's boyfriend or something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therapist Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Whereas what they should do instead is conduct all elections at whatever haunt you and your mates happen to frequent. It'd certainly be a lot more representative than the ridiculous views on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Stinkfinger Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 I did have my tongue firmly in my cheek when writing that, T! Are you double jointed Shaun ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDonald Jardine Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 In his excellent The Battle for Hearts and Minds, Craig Watson quotes Dave McPherson's amazement that Mercer didn't get the tribalism (mind you, neither did I until pretty recently), and Watson himself wrote this: "Fans from both clubs were stunned. Some Hearts fans regarded the very suggestion as getting one over on their rivals and confirmation that the Gorgie club was Edinburgh's dominant force. Others were concerned about the implications for Hearts' future. The move had been described as a merger that would see the new super team playing in a purpose built out-of-town stadium but that cast doubt over everything the supporters held dear - the club's name, colours, home and history... ... Whatever the truth, it seriously damaged (Mercer's) standing among Hearts fans who began to distrust his motives and his understanding of the club's traditions". But his previous statements always gave the impression he understood tribalism, in the media and otherwise. There are a few examples on the Back from the Brink video. My dad was at a lunch that Mercer spoke at well before 1990. He was asked if he would have gone for Hibs had he not bought Hearts. (They were up for sale at about the same time and ended up with Kenny Waugh.) His reply was no, that he wasn't a bigot but their history and culture didn't appeal to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Who is Craig Watson and what are his Hearts credentials? Oh wait, is he Moira Stuart's boyfriend or something? Nope, he's a lifelong Hearts supporter. You should really read his book: it's the best one on Hearts in many years in my opinion. A book which he researched exhaustively, and for which he spoke to, amongst others, Donald Ford, Freddie Glidden, Jack Alexander, Leslie Deans, Chris Robinson, George Foulkes, Peter McGrail, Robert McGrail, Gary Mackay... and Wallace Mercer. But what would any of them know, when set against you and your mates? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighusref Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Firstly, before I reply directly to your post, are you denying that there was scepticism about VR's links with those three clubs? As I am sure you will notice that I never said that I was sceptical about these links but that it was there. If you are talking about the rumoured attempt to buy Dundee UTD, it has been made clear on many occasions that at no point did VR attempt to buy them. VR, Foulkes and Thompson all stated this. This was a rumour drudged up by the media and it all started because VR was with Foulkes at the time and was introduced to Eddie Thompson by Foulkes at an airport terminal, some reporter put 2 and 2 together and as usual came up with 5. "Made clear" or not, VR tried to buy Dundee United. Believe what you wish. In essence your right about if you weren't as bad as CPR you were a hero, however the major factor was Tynecastle VR promised to keep us there. Your spot on about the other stuff, we were desperate for some white knight to come in and save us and wanted to "Believe" in anything. I disagree re Tynecastle. Tynecastle may have been the symbol for some, but it was not the reason that his approach was welcomed so. CPR wanted to take us away from Tynecastle to nowhere, had we been going somewhere after Tynecastle then many would have welcomed it. The problem was that there was no plan; Sell our largest asset and "we'll wait and see". It was the first step towards the club going under. I cannot guarantee, but I certainly believe that had Romanov came in, offering to buy out CPR AND build us a 25,000 all seater stadium in the west of Edinburgh that he would have been just as welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PresidentRomanov Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Nope, he's a lifelong Hearts supporter. You should really read his book: it's the best one on Hearts in many years in my opinion. A book which he researched exhaustively, and for which he spoke to, amongst others, Donald Ford, Freddie Glidden, Jack Alexander, Leslie Deans, Chris Robinson, George Foulkes, Peter McGrail, Robert McGrail, Gary Mackay... and Wallace Mercer. But what would any of them know, when set against you and your mates? Shaun, if I wrote a book, would you take everything in it as gospel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therapist Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Nope, he's a lifelong Hearts supporter. Like Fat Alex Salmond? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therapist Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 The problem was that there was no plan; Sell our largest asset and "we'll wait and see". It was the first step towards the club going under. Spot on sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 But his previous statements always gave the impression he understood tribalism, in the media and otherwise. There are a few examples on the Back from the Brink video.My dad was at a lunch that Mercer spoke at well before 1990. He was asked if he would have gone for Hibs had he not bought Hearts. (They were up for sale at about the same time and ended up with Kenny Waugh.) His reply was no, that he wasn't a bigot but their history and culture didn't appeal to him. That's evidence of the 'soft' tribalism common to many clubs though, and not what he found himself up against in 1990. I wish I had a copy of Back from the Brink: it used to be on sale in the Virgin Megastore in London many years ago, but I never bought it; because as a kid, I couldn't bring myself to watch the events at Dens! It is very interesting, though, that Mercer only finally acted and bought Hearts when a Hibs fan was on the point of agreeing a deal. Donald Ford had been frantically trying to get him on board for years - and when he got hold of WM to tell him what was going on, Wallace moved with lightning quick pace to stop it in its tracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Shaun, if I wrote a book, would you take everything in it as gospel? That'd depend on how thoroughly it was researched, the references you'd provided, and the people you'd interviewed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PresidentRomanov Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 That's evidence of the 'soft' tribalism common to many clubs though, and not what he found himself up against in 1990. I wish I had a copy of Back from the Brink: it used to be on sale in the Virgin Megastore in London many years ago, but I never bought it; because as a kid, I couldn't bring myself to watch the events at Dens! It is very interesting, though, that Mercer only finally acted and bought Hearts when a Hibs fan was on the point of agreeing a deal. Donald Ford had been frantically trying to get him on board for years - and when he got hold of WM to tell him what was going on, Wallace moved with lightning quick pace to stop it in its tracks. Shaun, PM me your address, and I'll post you a loan of mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Like Fat Alex Salmond? I highly doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Shaun, PM me your address, and I'll post you a loan of mine A very kind offer Sir - but with no telly, I don't have a VCR either! You can tell me all about it when I meet up with you for a drink next season though - which I assuredly will, assuming I'm welcome of course! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherlock Posted June 21, 2009 Author Share Posted June 21, 2009 ...It is very interesting, though, that Mercer only finally acted and bought Hearts when a Hibs fan was on the point of agreeing a deal. Donald Ford had been frantically trying to get him on board for years - and when he got hold of WM to tell him what was going on, Wallace moved with lightning quick pace to stop it in its tracks. When we were about to go under, Mr Mercer had to put his family home up as collateral. Perhaps he felt, in the years leading up to his stewardship, where the situation wasn't as perilous, that ensuring his family had a roof over their head was more important. You've mentioned this a couple of times Shaun, and it sounds like a dig at Mr Mercer for not getting involved. If it is a dig then why? The man put everything he had on the line to save us and pull us back from the brink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacDonald Jardine Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 That's evidence of the 'soft' tribalism common to many clubs though, and not what he found himself up against in 1990. I wish I had a copy of Back from the Brink: it used to be on sale in the Virgin Megastore in London many years ago, but I never bought it; because as a kid, I couldn't bring myself to watch the events at Dens! It is very interesting, though, that Mercer only finally acted and bought Hearts when a Hibs fan was on the point of agreeing a deal. Donald Ford had been frantically trying to get him on board for years - and when he got hold of WM to tell him what was going on, Wallace moved with lightning quick pace to stop it in its tracks. Yes but if you're aware of that it doesn't take a genius to work out that the tribalism will harden if your club's existence is threatened. He also claimed to be unaware of a religious dimension. Ignoring whether or not he overstated that as a factor, to claim no knowledge is patently untrue. I suspect he was guilty of assuming because the rivalry isn't as bitter as the Old Firm it wasn't really serious, a view not uncommon in the West of Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gambo Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Nothing could be more satisfying than thousands of vermin roaring and greeting in Lochend as the locks are put on Easter Road for the last time. Wishing for Hibs to survive is essentially wishing for them to be successful, imo. Well said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 When we were about to go under, Mr Mercer had to put his family home up as collateral. Perhaps he felt, in the years leading up to his stewardship, where the situation wasn't as perilous, that ensuring his family had a roof over their head was more important. You've mentioned this a couple of times Shaun, and it sounds like a dig at Mr Mercer for not getting involved. If it is a dig then why? The man put everything he had on the line to save us and pull us back from the brink. It's no dig at all, Sherlock. In my opinion, three men have done more than any other to safeguard and sustain this club: Elias Furst, Wallace Mercer and Vladimir Romanov. I'm in no doubt at all as to the magnificence of Mercer's legacy: I only mentioned his acting when Kenny Waugh was on the point of buying us as evidence of the tribalism MacDonald Jardine mentioned above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun.lawson Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Yes but if you're aware of that it doesn't take a genius to work out that the tribalism will harden if your club's existence is threatened.He also claimed to be unaware of a religious dimension. Ignoring whether or not he overstated that as a factor, to claim no knowledge is patently untrue. I suspect he was guilty of assuming because the rivalry isn't as bitter as the Old Firm it wasn't really serious, a view not uncommon in the West of Scotland. I agree - which is why his behaviour in Summer 1990, however justifiable on a basis of cold, hard supply and demand, represented a huge brain fart on his part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Don Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Firstly, before I reply directly to your post, are you denying that there was scepticism about VR's links with those three clubs? As I am sure you will notice that I never said that I was sceptical about these links but that it was there. Im not denying there was scepticism, people including myself wondered why go for other clubs and be turned down by them etc. "Made clear" or not, VR tried to buy Dundee United. Believe what you wish. This isn't my belief it has been stated and on record that at no point did VR try to buy Dundee UTD. Foulkes is on record stating the incident at the airport terminal VR is on record (In the BBC Documentary) stating he did not try to purchase Utd, and Eddie Thompson was also on record saying that no attempt to buy him out by VR was made, and im pretty sure that even if you want to call Foulkes and VR liars which many would, you cant also say Thompson is lying about the situation. I disagree re Tynecastle. Tynecastle may have been the symbol for some, but it was not the reason that his approach was welcomed so. CPR wanted to take us away from Tynecastle to nowhere, had we been going somewhere after Tynecastle then many would have welcomed it. The problem was that there was no plan; Sell our largest asset and "we'll wait and see". It was the first step towards the club going under. It was because of where CPR wanted to take us and his reasons for doing so. He lied to us when he said Tynecastle could not be made fit for European matches etc stating at the time if i remember correctly something about the floodlght position and also pitch could not be lengthened or widened. Many people knew he was lying and knew his only motive to move us was financial reasons for himself. Along with the bank and SMG breathing down our necks for money he did not have. I cannot guarantee, but I certainly believe that had Romanov came in, offering to buy out CPR AND build us a 25,000 all seater stadium in the west of Edinburgh that he would have been just as welcome. When Romanov first took over he gave a very lengthy interview to the hibsman about his visions and what he would like to achieve. In that interview he clearly stated he would love to build a multi purpose stadium "Fit for a capital" with a possibility when needed of an 80,000 capacity. Shared by both Edinburgh clubs and Edinburgh Council. Within days of that interview the tash blasted any idea or dream of his out the water by saying Hibs would never be interested in a ground share with Hearts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bighusref Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 This isn't my belief it has been stated and on record that at no point did VR try to buy Dundee UTD. Foulkes is on record stating the incident at the airport terminal VR is on record (In the BBC Documentary) stating he did not try to purchase Utd, and Eddie Thompson was also on record saying that no attempt to buy him out by VR was made, and im pretty sure that even if you want to call Foulkes and VR liars which many would, you cant also say Thompson is lying about the situation. Again, it is your belief. My missus knows people involved with United, at a level that would know the real answer, and the real answer is that Eddie had fought a bitter fight with Jim McLean for so long that he, for want of a better term, wanted his shot before even considering moving on. The offer was thrown out completely, that doesn't mean it didn't exist. Whatever you have read or heard saying that it didn't exist is incorrect I am afraid. It was because of where CPR wanted to take us and his reasons for doing so. He lied to us when he said Tynecastle could not be made fit for European matches etc stating at the time if i remember correctly something about the floodlght position and also pitch could not be lengthened or widened. Many people knew he was lying and knew his only motive to move us was financial reasons for himself. Along with the bank and SMG breathing down our necks for money he did not have. Fair points tbh. The reasons cited (and these reasons still exist in the UEFA rules) were that we had no "run off" area around the pitch and the dimensions of the pitch. The floodlights position and their tie to the stands precluded any change. However, I found it more galling that he was happy to sell our largest asset and not invest the money in some sort of future led plan for a home for Hearts. I cannot speak for a majority/minority but that feeling was not something that was particular to me. When Romanov first took over he gave a very lengthy interview to the hibsman about his visions and what he would like to achieve. In that interview he clearly stated he would love to build a multi purpose stadium "Fit for a capital" with a possibility when needed of an 80,000 capacity. Shared by both Edinburgh clubs and Edinburgh Council. Within days of that interview the tash blasted any idea or dream of his out the water by saying Hibs would never be interested in a ground share with Hearts. I don't disagree with that. That however was not what I was saying. I was saying that if he came in with plans for a new stadium it would have been roundly followed. To say in the EEN/Scotsman that his "vision" was a mythical 80,000 all seater stadium somewhere is far from the sort of plan I was referring to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Don Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 I don't disagree with that. That however was not what I was saying. I was saying that if he came in with plans for a new stadium it would have been roundly followed. To say in the EEN/Scotsman that his "vision" was a mythical 80,000 all seater stadium somewhere is far from the sort of plan I was referring to. I believe it probably would have been followed by many depending on the motives and reasons behind it, but as has been proven Tynecastle can be made fit for European football, So i doubt now many would be willing to move. The fact VR has/is trying to build a new stand etc as well is due mainly to the fact he knows there is no chance of his "Dream" he originally had ever coming to fuition. As soon as it was dismissed thats when plans were drawn up for a new stand etc. If VR came out tomorrow and said he wanted to build a new stadium say Sighthill for arguments sake (Im using that area because there was plans for a stadium there before with the council) then i suspect it would be met with the very same scepticism and divide Very much like Mercers plans were for Millerhill. ie some would be for the idea and others against it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Chat Posted June 21, 2009 Share Posted June 21, 2009 Most Hearts fans didn't react in the same way because, as far as they could see, it was a takeover, and Mercer never made any public comment on what would become of us, so assumed nothing would happen to us. I just think it's at odds with what Mercer regularly wrote and said in the years afterwards, as well as to Mike Aitken - but what Le Chat wrote above has got me thinking, and is at least one possible explanation. Its a shame that Alex Jones (he was the Fed's Chairman at the time I think) doesn't post on JKB as he may be able to confirm this but the story going about the 'informed' Hearts supporters at the time was that Wallace had given assurances to the likes of the Federation that Hearts existence was not in any doubt. If the Hearts fans felt that we were, we would have been outside his house in Barton with the half-Niddries along with the bitters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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