Wallace Mercer Takeover Bid

[shaun.lawson]

Shaun, I can normally read your "internet expertise" with a smile on my face, but I suggest you try and stick to subjects that won't offend people so deeply.

 

Wallace Mercer had no intention of changing the name, or colours, of Heart of Midlothian FC.

 

I supported his plan 100% at the time, do you think I'd have done so if what you say was correct?

 

I don't think you fully thought through the implications of what he was doing, PB.

[shaun.lawson]

Really, you seem to be the only poster so far who thinks that.

 

It's true: he wasn't. The crooks, clowns and cowboys running Hibs at the time approached Mercer: that's all documented, and one of the many reasons why Hibs fans' demonisation of WM is so ridiculous. Mercer saw a business opportunity, so was happy to oblige - at which point, all hell broke loose.

 

You'd think, wouldn't you, that if he had simply been motivated by a despotic desire to destroy Hibs and hand Hearts fans our "greatest ever victory", he'd have remained incredibly popular throughout his remaining time at the club? But he didn't. When he sold to Deans and Robinson, he was widely loathed - but thankfully, got out in time to protect and resurrect his legacy, which as you say, was a great one.

 

Three different owners have saved this club at one point or another: Elias Furst, Wallace Mercer and Vladimir Romanov. And Mercer's achievement in transforming a bedraggled, antiquated club which was lurching from one disaster to the next into the thriving, modern day Heart of Midlothian was simply stunning: he created the HMFC that we know and love now.

 

Ten years later, he was still talking about mergers, as the article below shows. He won the financial argument hands down; he just didn't win the emotional one.

 

http://sport.scotsman.com/football/Mercer-talking-without-mercy.2233882.jp

 

"It’s ludicrous to stick your head in the sand and pretend everything’s okay when nothing could be further from the truth. I remember when Hearts were able to challenge Rangers and Celtic on a regular basis in the late 1980s and early 1990s, but these days have gone, and I don’t foresee them returning while we have two teams in Edinburgh who are making the best of a bad job," said Mercer. "This very morning, when I drove into the city on the west side, it struck me that we should have gone ahead with my plans to build a 30,000 all-seater stadium on the outskirts of Edinburgh. It would have been magnificent, and that’s what Derby County have done, what Blackburn Rovers have done, and what Southampton and Coventry are doing in England.

 

"As it is, we have seen Tynecastle refurbished and redeveloped with all the attendant problems of a facility in a built-up area. It’s another case of tradition winning over common sense, isn’t it? I’m not denigrating all the hard work and commitment which has been expended by both Hibs and Hearts over the last five years, but honestly, where has it got them? Lagging 30 or 40 points behind Rangers, that’s where. Trailing behind a Celtic set-up which has been shooting itself in the foot all year.

 

"Frankly, I wouldn’t want to be chairman of any company which was happy to be third- or fourth-best in such an impoverished market as Scotland, but there you are. Answer me this. Do Aberdeen have any cash? No. Do any of the members of the First Division outwith Livingston have money? No. You can forget the sides in the Second and Third Divisions, given that they’re operating on a wing and a prayer and hoping they draw the Old Firm in the cup competitions every two or three seasons. Even the injection from the Scottish Media Group into Hearts hasn’t changed things one iota. So it doesn’t take a genius to predict that the Old Firm will scarper if this situation continues. Don’t forget, I was the inaugural chairman of Scottish Superleague in 1992, and I reckoned then that the day would soon arrive when Rangers would service two squads – one for domestic duty and the other for Europe. It’s coming to pass, isn’t it?

 

"So the equation is pretty simple. Will Hearts and Hibs allow small-time attitudes and religious division to keep them apart for ever, or will they wake up to reality? Merger is the best option. Actually, it’s the only option if, like me, you believe that there will be a European League, driven by television revenue and market forces, and bolstered by a franchising system similar to that which flourishes throughout the United States.

[fug]

"This very morning, when I drove into the city on the west side, it struck me that we should have gone ahead with my plans to build a 30,000 all-seater stadium on the outskirts of Edinburgh. It would have been magnificent, and that?s what Derby County have done, what Blackburn Rovers have done, and what Southampton and Coventry are doing in England.

 

[/i]

 

derby county, coventry and southampton all almost went bankrupt as a result of these moves. so these are great examples to bring up....

 

mercer also left us with significant debts and was not the financial genius some make him out to be. yes he saved the club but his 'wallace knows best' arrogance, contempt for the fans and attempts to destroy another team lost him my respect.

 

football is not about 'franchises' like basketball. hearts and hibs are a big part of our city and the city would be poorer without either of them. i hate hibs. i hate their scrawny, ugly, rat-like aids riddled fans, but i always want them to be there in our shadow.

 

a combined edinburgh team would be nowhere near as big as the old firm. anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded. hearts are the 3rd team in scotland and the combined team would be the same. they would get the same frequent european campaigns, the same frequent early exits but without the passion of the derby and rivalry, the banter at work and in the pub. a football team withot a major rival is a sad, sad thing.

 

closing hibs down would give (some) people a short peroid of extreme pleasure but when that died there would be little left. for all hearts fans the majority of their best memories involve hibs. i wouldnt sell these memories for anything.

[John Findlay]

derby county, coventry and southampton all almost went bankrupt as a result of these moves. so these are great examples to bring up....

 

mercer also left us with significant debts and was not the financial genius some make him out to be. yes he saved the club but his 'wallace knows best' arrogance, contempt for the fans and attempts to destroy another team lost him my respect.

 

football is not about 'franchises' like basketball. hearts and hibs are a big part of our city and the city would be poorer without either of them. i hate hibs. i hate their scrawny, ugly, rat-like aids riddled fans, but i always want them to be there in our shadow.

 

a combined edinburgh team would be nowhere near as big as the old firm. anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded. hearts are the 3rd team in scotland and the combined team would be the same. they would get the same frequent european campaigns, the same frequent early exits but without the passion of the derby and rivalry, the banter at work and in the pub. a football team withot a major rival is a sad, sad thing.

 

closing hibs down would give (some) people a short peroid of extreme pleasure but when that died there would be little left. for all hearts fans the majority of their best memories involve hibs. i wouldnt sell these memories for anything.

 

My sentiments too.

 

 

 

 

John

[gary18]

Mickey Weir makes me want to vomit!!

[Guest juvehearts]

watching those clips vs hibs does make you wonder again if their will ever be another john robertson at our club again

[bighusref]

I don't think you fully thought through the implications of what he was doing, PB.

 

Whether it was the right or wrong thing to do Shaun, his aim was as described by speedbump earlier in the thread.

 

Your distance learning HND on "following a football team" has served you well. You have chosen a wonderful football team with a fantastic history, however in this instance your source material is incorrect.

 

[shaun.lawson]

Whether it was the right or wrong thing to do Shaun, his aim was as described by speedbump earlier in the thread.

 

Your distance learning HND on "following a football team" has served you well. You have chosen a wonderful football team with a fantastic history, however in this instance your source material is incorrect.

 

 

Blimey. Did you just turn into PickyBum without me noticing?

 

At the famous press conference announcing what he was about to do, Mercer never made exactly clear what would've become of us. However, in an article in the Scotsman on 5 June 1990, Mike Aitken wrote about the views Mercer had expressed to him when they co-wrote Heart to Heart in 1988.

 

http://users.quista.net/fraserp/handsoff/0506rival.htm

 

"The Hearts Chairman was unyielding, both privately and publicly, on the subject of clubs amalgamating. He was convinced of the inevitability of such a course of action if Scottish sides outwith the Old Firm of Rangers and Celtic were to have a significant role to play in the changing future of the sport...

 

... Before examining the arguments on both sides, it may be worth recalling the views the Hearts chairman put forward regarding the imminent contraction of the Scottish football industry prior to becoming actively involved in seeking the creation of just one major football power in Edinburgh.

 

Discussing what lay in store for the game in the 1990s, he said: "Inevitably it will mean that the gulf between the haves and the have-nots will increase yet again. It is out of this financial situation that a different structure for the game will emerge.

 

"I foresee in the long term a variety of European leagues in which the clubs of matching economic resources will band together.

 

"By then the barriers of parochialism will have been dismantled. That would lead to a market with three or four tiers of competitiveness. I appreciate that we would not be able to compete with the Barcelonas, the Real Madrids and the Liverpools. However we would be in a position to hold our own with just about anyone else.

 

"This process of international fragmentation will take many years to evolve. In order to cope with what lies ahead it will be imperative to have economic strength. That?s why I envisage amalgamations between clubs and the rationalisation of our industry."

 

Do these views appear to you those of someone concerned with Hearts and only Hearts - or with the wider footballing interests of Edinburgh and the Lothians in a rapidly changing world in which he was way ahead of his time, as subsequent events showed? How about these views, expressed a full decade after the failed merger attempt?

 

http://sport.scotsman.com/sport/Mercer-talking-without-mercy.2233882.jp

 

"The equation is pretty simple. Will Hearts and Hibs allow small-time attitudes and religious division to keep them apart for ever, or will they wake up to reality? Merger is the best option. Actually, it?s the only option if, like me, you believe that there will be a European League, driven by television revenue and market forces, and bolstered by a franchising system similar to that which flourishes throughout the United States."

 

In his article mentioned above, Aitken went on to suggest that, if the takeover went through, a change of name and colours would've followed in time for the start of 1991/2. Plenty of other fans around at the time have confirmed the very real doubt over his intentions concerning us, let alone Hibs: sorry, but he'd never, ever have gone to so much trouble if the fruit of his work couldn't be seen for another fifteen or twenty years. Mercer would have had to change our name and colours to have any hope of wooing new fans - without whom, there was no point in what he tried to do.

 

If you want to romanticise and mythologise what he was doing almost two decades on, that's up to you. But it ignores the point that many Hearts fans were themselves opposed to the takeover/merger; that instead of being a hero for coming so close to the "ultimate victory", he became more and more unpopular among Hearts fans over his remaining four years as owner; and that he was always entirely open about what he was motivated by. Not the destruction of a rival club - but simple financial and commercial considerations.

 

Mercer again, from a second press conference later that tumultuous week:

 

http://users.quista.net/fraserp/handsoff/aftermath.htm

 

"What astounded observers was the strength of the criticism which Mr Mercer and his advisers chose to direct at the record of his own club. Neither Hibs nor Hearts, he said, had won a major trophy since the formation of the Premier Division in 1975.

 

Mr Mercer's adviser, Professor Donald Mackay, produced a report which compared the attendances of both clubs with those at other premier league teams. Both clubs failed to achieve the attendances which would be expected from their catchment area, he said, with Hibs falling particularly far short.

 

The offer document itself said: "Given the inability of Edinburgh's premier league clubs to win at the Scottish domestic level, it is hard to see either of them competing, let alone winning, at the highest level of football, domestically or internationally".

 

Hence his desire for a merger, creating one super club: not Hearts, but Edinburgh United.

[Le Chat]

Shaun

 

Remember that time you ended up making a spectacular **** of yourself ?

 

You're about to do it again.

[shaun.lawson]

Shaun

 

Remember that time you ended up making a spectacular **** of yourself ?

 

You're about to do it again.

 

It's there, in print. Or did the man who co-wrote a book with Mercer, listened at length to his views and in the article I quoted, expanded on the case for a merger, not know what he was talking about?

[PresidentRomanov]

Shaun

 

Remember that time you ended up making a spectacular **** of yourself ?

 

You're about to do it again.

 

Leave him alone, if it's half as funny as the last time, it'll be worth it

 

Incidentally, I know alot of Hearts supporters, and can't recall many being against the idea at the time, but I suppose having been there isn't the same as scouring the internet for inaccurate information

[PresidentRomanov]

It's there, in print. Or did the man who co-wrote a book with Mercer, listened at length to his views and in the article I quoted, expanded on the case for a merger, not know what he was talking about?

 

I listened at length to his veiws too, and the man who co wrote the book is wrong, it's all his opinion, Wallace Mercer never once said he'd change Hearts name or colours, if he had, he wouldn't have had the backing of the vast majority of Hearts supporters, and he did.

[Sherlock]

...In his article mentioned above, Aitken went on to suggest that, if the takeover went through, a change of name and colours would've followed in time for the start of 1991/2...

 

Where in that article does Aitken suggest a change of name and colours would've followed?

 

In fact where anywhere does it say that the name of Heart of Midlothian FC and the Maroon that's famously associated with the name would have disappeared? I can't find anything.

 

...Hence his desire for a merger, creating one super club: not Hearts, but Edinburgh United.

 

I think Edinburgh United FC would have had something to say about it, if a newly formed club decided to use their name.

[Robbo27_22]

Blimey. Did you just turn into PickyBum without me noticing?

 

At the famous press conference announcing what he was about to do, Mercer never made exactly clear what would've become of us. However, in an article in the Scotsman on 5 June 1990, Mike Aitken wrote about the views Mercer had expressed to him when they co-wrote Heart to Heart in 1988.

 

http://users.quista.net/fraserp/handsoff/0506rival.htm

 

"The Hearts Chairman was unyielding, both privately and publicly, on the subject of clubs amalgamating. He was convinced of the inevitability of such a course of action if Scottish sides outwith the Old Firm of Rangers and Celtic were to have a significant role to play in the changing future of the sport...

 

... Before examining the arguments on both sides, it may be worth recalling the views the Hearts chairman put forward regarding the imminent contraction of the Scottish football industry prior to becoming actively involved in seeking the creation of just one major football power in Edinburgh.

 

Discussing what lay in store for the game in the 1990s, he said: "Inevitably it will mean that the gulf between the haves and the have-nots will increase yet again. It is out of this financial situation that a different structure for the game will emerge.

 

"I foresee in the long term a variety of European leagues in which the clubs of matching economic resources will band together.

 

"By then the barriers of parochialism will have been dismantled. That would lead to a market with three or four tiers of competitiveness. I appreciate that we would not be able to compete with the Barcelonas, the Real Madrids and the Liverpools. However we would be in a position to hold our own with just about anyone else.

 

"This process of international fragmentation will take many years to evolve. In order to cope with what lies ahead it will be imperative to have economic strength. That?s why I envisage amalgamations between clubs and the rationalisation of our industry."

 

Do these views appear to you those of someone concerned with Hearts and only Hearts - or with the wider footballing interests of Edinburgh and the Lothians in a rapidly changing world in which he was way ahead of his time, as subsequent events showed? How about these views, expressed a full decade after the failed merger attempt?

 

http://sport.scotsman.com/sport/Mercer-talking-without-mercy.2233882.jp

 

"The equation is pretty simple. Will Hearts and Hibs allow small-time attitudes and religious division to keep them apart for ever, or will they wake up to reality? Merger is the best option. Actually, it?s the only option if, like me, you believe that there will be a European League, driven by television revenue and market forces, and bolstered by a franchising system similar to that which flourishes throughout the United States."

 

In his article mentioned above, Aitken went on to suggest that, if the takeover went through, a change of name and colours would've followed in time for the start of 1991/2. Plenty of other fans around at the time have confirmed the very real doubt over his intentions concerning us, let alone Hibs: sorry, but he'd never, ever have gone to so much trouble if the fruit of his work couldn't be seen for another fifteen or twenty years. Mercer would have had to change our name and colours to have any hope of wooing new fans - without whom, there was no point in what he tried to do.

 

If you want to romanticise and mythologise what he was doing almost two decades on, that's up to you. But it ignores the point that many Hearts fans were themselves opposed to the takeover/merger; that instead of being a hero for coming so close to the "ultimate victory", he became more and more unpopular among Hearts fans over his remaining four years as owner; and that he was always entirely open about what he was motivated by. Not the destruction of a rival club - but simple financial and commercial considerations.

 

Mercer again, from a second press conference later that tumultuous week:

 

http://users.quista.net/fraserp/handsoff/aftermath.htm

 

"What astounded observers was the strength of the criticism which Mr Mercer and his advisers chose to direct at the record of his own club. Neither Hibs nor Hearts, he said, had won a major trophy since the formation of the Premier Division in 1975.

 

Mr Mercer's adviser, Professor Donald Mackay, produced a report which compared the attendances of both clubs with those at other premier league teams. Both clubs failed to achieve the attendances which would be expected from their catchment area, he said, with Hibs falling particularly far short.

 

The offer document itself said: "Given the inability of Edinburgh's premier league clubs to win at the Scottish domestic level, it is hard to see either of them competing, let alone winning, at the highest level of football, domestically or internationally".

 

Hence his desire for a merger, creating one super club: not Hearts, but Edinburgh United.

 

Shaun, I know you are an intelligent guy and usually side with most things you say but I think you are maybe missing the most important thing. Maybe it was because you weren't around the city at the time I'm not sure.

 

Whilst there were some guys who would have taken the greatest of pleasure from Hibs demise, the over riding feeling I got from everyone that I spoke to about it was that it wouldn't have been the start of a new beginning when trophies would have came rolling in, it would have been the beginning of the end. Rangers had a sugar daddy who at that time was throwing oodles about - regardless of what all the reports and experts were saying, Mercer wouldn't have matched that money. Also, Hearts are a name that have an attraction to some, Hibs are the same. Who would go out and sign for a new club with no history, no prestige and no guarantee on where they were going? Christ, Chelsea have spent a small countries defecit and still can't get the trophy they want!

 

I don't know where Mercer got the idea from but for me and many others, it was always a non starter.

[Le Chat]

It's there, in print. Or did the man who co-wrote a book with Mercer, listened at length to his views and in the article I quoted, expanded on the case for a merger, not know what he was talking about?

 

Reading stuff written on reflection and quotes from the man himself boxing clever after the event cannot make up for being there when it happened.

 

Take it from someone who lived through it and imersed himself in it for 6 weeks Shaun - it was an extermination. A complete and utter asset-grab which would have left Hibs as dead as a dodo and Hearts in a much healthier position.

[shaun.lawson]

I listened at length to his veiws too, and the man who co wrote the book is wrong, it's all his opinion, Wallace Mercer never once said he'd change Hearts name or colours, if he had, he wouldn't have had the backing of the vast majority of Hearts supporters, and he did.

 

In public? No. Events moved very quickly, and if he'd lost the Hearts fans as soon as announcing the takeover, well... But to have maintained HMFC in the same colours would've rendered what he was doing completely pointless: because not a single Hibs fan would've started coming to Tynecastle instead, and he'd have gone through immense grief for little or no financial gain for his club. That he became disillusioned and lost his drive in the years following Summer 1990 was plainly because he realised he'd taken us as far as he could without a complete revolution in football in Edinburgh.

[Sherlock]

... the over riding feeling I got from everyone that I spoke to about it was that it wouldn't have been the start of a new beginning when trophies would have came rolling in, it would have been the beginning of the end...

 

... but for me and many others, it was always a non starter.

 

Every Hearts fan that i knew at the time was 100% behind Mr Mercer.

 

For me and many others, the destruction of the vermin was always a go'er.

 

We must have moved in different circles.

[shaun.lawson]

Reading stuff written on reflection and quotes from the man himself boxing clever after the event cannot make up for being there when it happened.

 

Take it from someone who lived through it and imersed himself in it for 6 weeks Shaun - it was an extermination. A complete and utter asset-grab which would have left Hibs as dead as a dodo and Hearts in a much healthier position.

 

Fair enough - but is your perspective based on what Mercer said? Or purely on how Hibs fans reacted?

[Sherlock]

In public? No. Events moved very quickly, and if he'd lost the Hearts fans as soon as announcing the takeover, well... But to have maintained HMFC in the same colours would've rendered what he was doing completely pointless: because not a single Hibs fan would've started coming to Tynecastle instead, and he'd have gone through immense grief for little or no financial gain for his club. That he became disillusioned and lost his drive in the years following Summer 1990 was plainly because he realised he'd taken us as far as he could without a complete revolution in football in Edinburgh.

 

Shaun, you're showing your naivety on this subject.

 

Not a single hibs fan would have went to any newly formed team, regardless if the team was called Heart of Midlothian FC or Edinburgh Amalgamated FC. Mr Mercer was looking at the bigger picture and thinking of the generations to come.

 

However, if he had stripped the name Heart of Midlothian FC then he would also have lost his Hearts fan base and with no fans it would have been unsustainable in the short to medium term. The newly formed Edinburgh Amalgamated FC would have obviously folded.

 

DO you think he would have done this?

[Le Chat]

Fair enough - but is your perspective based on what Mercer said? Or purely on how Hibs fans reacted?

 

It was the Hibs fans reaction which has lead to the revisionism by Wallace on the subject.

 

The guy was so much in fear of his life that he went into hiding for a spell. That's why he hinted, after the fact, that it would have been a merger - so he could get on with his life again.

 

When the offer was first made it was perfectly clear what was happening - hence the reaction of the Hibs fans and the lack of reaction from the Hearts fans. If we thought that the existence of HMFC was in doubt we would have kicked up a bigger stink about it than the bitters.

[shaun.lawson]

Shaun, you're showing your naivety on this subject.

 

Not a single hibs fan would have went to any newly formed team, regardless if the team was called Heart of Midlothian FC or Edinburgh Amalgamated FC. Mr Mercer was looking at the bigger picture and thinking of the generations to come.

 

However, if he had stripped the name Heart of Midlothian FC then he would also have lost his Hearts fan base and with no fans it would have been unsustainable in the short to medium term. The newly formed Edinburgh Amalgamated FC would have obviously folded.

 

DO you think he would have done this?

 

Yes, as a fait accompli. He probably hoped Hibs' demise and continuing to play at Tynie until the new stadium was built would've assuaged the fury of Hearts fans - but remember, he chronically underestimated how Hibs fans would react in the first place. You can see and I can see that an amalgamated club would've been a complete non-starter: franchises don't work in football for all kinds of reasons, as Robbo explained above.

 

The trouble is, I don't think Mercer realised this, or understood the emotional pull of any football club: otherwise, why did he keep talking about American-style franchises and amalgamations for many years afterwards? He was a businessman first and foremost, and actually waited in the background for some years before gazumping Kenny Waugh and buying us when we were at rock bottom. With regard to which, thank God he did!

[Robbo27_22]

Every Hearts fan that i knew at the time was 100% behind Mr Mercer.

 

For me and many others, the destruction of the vermin was always a go'er.

 

We must have moved in different circles.

 

Defo wasn't my wish. I'm talking about the real end of the day scenario - not the watching them squirm effect.

 

As I said earlier in the thread, can you imagine a world without looking forward to the next embarassment of the Hubz?

 

If that's a yes, then I can only imagine you lived through the late 60's/early 70's.

[shaun.lawson]

It was the Hibs fans reaction which has lead to the revisionism by Wallace on the subject.

 

The guy was so much in fear of his life that he went into hiding for a spell. That's why he hinted, after the fact, that it would have been a merger - so he could get on with his life again.

 

When the offer was first made it was perfectly clear what was happening - hence the reaction of the Hibs fans and the lack of reaction from the Hearts fans. If we thought that the existence of HMFC was in doubt we would have kicked up a bigger stink about it than the bitters.

 

Interesting: thanks for that. It's a really fresh perspective. It still doesn't explain why he said what he did to Mike Aitken two years earlier though - and having feared for his life during the saga itself, it also doesn't explain why he'd have continued to talk mergers for much of the rest of his time.

[PresidentRomanov]

Defo wasn't my wish. I'm talking about the real end of the day scenario - not the watching them squirm effect.

 

As I said earlier in the thread, can you imagine a world without looking forward to the next embarassment of the Hubz?

 

If that's a yes, then I can only imagine you lived through the late 60's/early 70's.

 

It's certainly a yes from me, as I said earlier, I'd look forward to embarrassing the old firm in title deciding games, alot more than pishing all over they peasants

[shaun.lawson]

Shaun, I know you are an intelligent guy and usually side with most things you say but I think you are maybe missing the most important thing. Maybe it was because you weren't around the city at the time I'm not sure.

 

Whilst there were some guys who would have taken the greatest of pleasure from Hibs demise, the over riding feeling I got from everyone that I spoke to about it was that it wouldn't have been the start of a new beginning when trophies would have came rolling in, it would have been the beginning of the end. Rangers had a sugar daddy who at that time was throwing oodles about - regardless of what all the reports and experts were saying, Mercer wouldn't have matched that money. Also, Hearts are a name that have an attraction to some, Hibs are the same. Who would go out and sign for a new club with no history, no prestige and no guarantee on where they were going? Christ, Chelsea have spent a small countries defecit and still can't get the trophy they want!

 

I don't know where Mercer got the idea from but for me and many others, it was always a non starter.

 

Robbo, I completely agree with you. Wallace was astonishingly prescient about many aspects of the future of the game: what he said in '88 was before SKY, before the Premier League breakaway in England, before the Champions League and so on and so on. And even after 1990, he was at the forefront of calls for change: he was the inaugural Chairman of Scottish Superleague, for example, which clearly presaged a breakaway, albeit was concerned first and foremost with reducing the top flight back to something more manageable.

 

But franchises? Over my dead body. The day franchises are all in vogue, football will have died. This is the bit I just don't think he grasped: if it works in America, he seems to have thought, why couldn't it work here?

[bighusref]

Blimey. Did you just turn into PickyBum without me noticing?

 

At the famous press conference announcing what he was about to do, Mercer never made exactly clear what would've become of us. However, in an article in the Scotsman on 5 June 1990, Mike Aitken wrote about the views Mercer had expressed to him when they co-wrote Heart to Heart in 1988.

 

 

At least you are not questioning my loyalty. Seriously, it was meant to be a light hearted jibe and hope you took it as such.

 

Anyway, back to the point. The other week there I watched a programme on Island Records, I witnessed people "recalling" the facts on contentious situations as the present climate suited them. Similarly, a programme on Blackadder, where Michael Grade tries to take credit for it's success whilst the writers say he was about to chuck them. Add a few years to anything and people will react differently to the current situation. As Le Chat states, Mercer's life in Edinburgh was worse than Fred Goodwin's after the proposed buy out. It wasn't Hearts fans that were threatening his and his families lives, it was Hibs fans, why is that? Why would ONLY Hibs fans be upset about a merger and why would Hearts fans be okay (by and large) with it? Hibs fans started a pressure group called Hands Off Hibs, they had rallies, marches and they sold T-Shirts (including one my friend owned with the term "these colours will never die" written in green. Green only for the first wash. ) to support their cause. Why is that? You cannot honestly be suggesting that they have greater feeling for their "club" than we do, can you?

 

Much like others on the thread, and I try to say this in the nicest possible way, as we were here, not only following the club but living in the city at the time, we were in no doubt what was to happen. Hell, the whole of Edinburgh knew what was going on.

[Therapist]

the over riding feeling I got from everyone that I spoke to about it was that it wouldn't have been the start of a new beginning when trophies would have came rolling in, it would have been the beginning of the end.

 

You don't half talk some nonsense. The talk at the time was never about winning trophies it was about putting the Leith vermin out of business. And the vast majority of Hearts fans were all for it. This is a fact, and none on your revisionist lily-livered PC nonsense will change it.

[Robbo27_22]

You don't half talk some nonsense. The talk at the time was never about winning trophies it was about putting the Leith vermin out of business. And the vast majority of Hearts fans were all for it. This is a fact, and none on your revisionist lily-livered PC nonsense will change it.

 

So am I lying?

 

And what's with this PC ****e? Never been that in my puff.

 

You wanted Hibs out of business - I can accept that. Maybe alot of people you know wanted Hibs out of business - I can accept that.

 

I didn't want Hibs out of business - can you accept that? Most of the folk I socialise with didn't want Hibs out of business - can you accept that?

 

If not, away and lie in your own pish. And whilst you are doing that, go and have a look at the poll on the matter.

[shaun.lawson]

 

At least you are not questioning my loyalty. Seriously, it was meant to be a light hearted jibe and hope you took it as such.

 

Anyway, back to the point. The other week there I watched a programme on Island Records, I witnessed people "recalling" the facts on contentious situations as the present climate suited them. Similarly, a programme on Blackadder, where Michael Grade tries to take credit for it's success whilst the writers say he was about to chuck them. Add a few years to anything and people will react differently to the current situation. As Le Chat states, Mercer's life in Edinburgh was worse than Fred Goodwin's after the proposed buy out. It wasn't Hearts fans that were threatening his and his families lives, it was Hibs fans, why is that? Why would ONLY Hibs fans be upset about a merger and why would Hearts fans be okay (by and large) with it? Hibs fans started a pressure group called Hands Off Hibs, they had rallies, marches and they sold T-Shirts (including one my friend owned with the term "these colours will never die" written in green. Green only for the first wash. ) to support their cause. Why is that? You cannot honestly be suggesting that they have greater feeling for their "club" than we do, can you?

 

Much like others on the thread, and I try to say this in the nicest possible way, as we were here, not only following the club but living in the city at the time, we were in no doubt what was to happen. Hell, the whole of Edinburgh knew what was going on.

 

Not at all! The curious thing is I think that if someone else, motives unknown, had made a takeover bid for Hibs, I'm sceptical their fans would've been roused at all. It was the source of the takeover that made them so angry. Much myth and legend has developed on their side since about the fans 'saving' Hibs: actually, as far as I can see, they'd had no clue whatever of what Duff and Gray had been up to. They didn't even react when Hibs' owners put the money Hibs fans had raised in a share issue into paying off loans and buying a pub in the West country!

 

And all they did afterwards was locate a white knight, and plead with him to become involved: something which later served them well when he bought the club, but Mercer's idea very quickly became a non-starter. He had David Rowland's shares in the bank - but where would the rest have come from?

 

Most Hearts fans didn't react in the same way because, as far as they could see, it was a takeover, and Mercer never made any public comment on what would become of us, so assumed nothing would happen to us. I just think it's at odds with what Mercer regularly wrote and said in the years afterwards, as well as to Mike Aitken - but what Le Chat wrote above has got me thinking, and is at least one possible explanation.

 

PS. No probs with the jibe. I burst out laughing when I saw it!

[PresidentRomanov]

So am I lying?

 

And what's with this PC ****e? Never been that in my puff.

 

You wanted Hibs out of business - I can accept that. Maybe alot of people you know wanted Hibs out of business - I can accept that.

 

I didn't want Hibs out of business - can you accept that? Most of the folk I socialise with didn't want Hibs out of business - can you accept that?

 

If not, away and lie in your own pish. And whilst you are doing that, go and have a look at the poll on the matter.[/QUOTE]

 

Fact is, that vast majority of "supporters" who voted on the poll, would've been running about in nappies at the time, and don't know what they're voting for.

[shaun.lawson]

 

Fact is, that vast majority of "supporters" who voted on the poll, would've been running about in nappies at the time, and don't know what they're voting for.

 

This makes no sense. Take me out of the equation for a minute, given my lack of "true fan" credentials - but surely everyone on that poll knows what they'd be voting for now?

[Robbo27_22]

So am I lying?

 

And what's with this PC ****e? Never been that in my puff.

 

You wanted Hibs out of business - I can accept that. Maybe alot of people you know wanted Hibs out of business - I can accept that.

 

I didn't want Hibs out of business - can you accept that? Most of the folk I socialise with didn't want Hibs out of business - can you accept that?

 

If not' date=' away and lie in your own pish.[b'] And whilst you are doing that, go and have a look at the poll on the matter.[/[/b]QUOTE]

 

Fact is, that vast majority of "supporters" who voted on the poll, would've been running about in nappies at the time, and don't know what they're voting for.

 

Fact is, age is irrelevant in that poll as people who are voting are voting no then and no now because they don't want football life without Hibs. FACT

[PresidentRomanov]

 

Fact is' date=' age is irrelevant in that poll as people who are voting are voting no then and no now because they don't want football life without Hibs. [b']FACT[/b]

 

Fact is, polls on here do not represent the feelings of the Hearts support who actually go to games regularly

[davemclaren]

 

Fact is' date=' polls on here do not represent the feelings of the Hearts support who actually go to games regularly [/quote']

 

That's not because they don't represent your views is it?

[bighusref]

Most Hearts fans didn't react in the same way because, as far as they could see, it was a takeover, and Mercer never made any public comment on what would become of us, so assumed nothing would happen to us. I just think it's at odds with what Mercer regularly wrote and said in the years afterwards, as well as to Mike Aitken - but what Le Chat wrote above has got me thinking, and is at least one possible explanation.

 

Come on mate!

 

You are not seriously suggesting that a bunch as sceptical, untrusting and pessimistic as Hearts fans would not have had their own faction expressing their concern if there was any sleight of hand or dubiety?

 

The reason that Hearts fans were not fearful as we were not in danger, it was Hibs that could have been obliterated.

 

As for what has been written since, anything that has been written since that suggests that it was anything other than a hostile takeover that would have removed Hibs from the map is incorrect, sorry but it is just the way it is, or to be more accurate, it is the way it was.

[Robbo27_22]

 

Fact is' date=' polls on here do not represent the feelings of the Hearts support who actually go to games regularly [/quote']

 

 

Mate, you've lost the plot and the argument.

[PresidentRomanov]

 

That's not because they don't represent your views is it?

 

They don't represent my veiws, because my veiws represent the vast majority of Hearts supporters who go to the games veiws

[davemclaren]

 

They don't represent my veiws' date=' because my veiws represent the vast majority of Hearts supporters who go to the games veiws [/quote']

 

[shaun.lawson]

Come on mate!

 

You are not seriously suggesting that a bunch as sceptical, untrusting and pessimistic as Hearts fans would not have had their own faction expressing their concern if there was any sleight of hand or dubiety?

 

The reason that Hearts fans were not fearful as we were not in danger, it was Hibs that could have been obliterated.

 

As for what has been written since, anything that has been written since that suggests that it was anything other than a hostile takeover that would have removed Hibs from the map is incorrect, sorry but it is just the way it is, or to be more accurate, it is the way it was.

 

It certainly was a hostile takeover which would've removed Hibs from the map. Thus with those words did Moira Stuart inflame the passions of Leith! But purely in my opinion, it was with a view to something else - and as soon as Hearts fans had had that confirmed, then their characteristic scepticism, lack of trust and pessimism would've been given full vent.

 

Mind you, speaking of that - where was it in Romanov's case when he rode to the rescue on his white charger? It's a serious question.

[The Don]

I know a lot of Jambos who actually went on the "Hands Of Hibs" march. There was not the overwhelming 100% backing by all Jambos of Mercers takeover. Im 37 so can quite clearly remember the feelings of many at the time and what it was like. I was not in total favour of the takeover myself however, Mercer never made clear at the time his real plans everything was speculative, would it still be Heart of Midlothian and no Hibs? would we be renamed? As if said before i do not and have never held what Mercer tried against him. Having met the man on many occasion and spoken to him, i genuinely believe he was doing it for the best intentions albeit the wrong way of doing it.

[PresidentRomanov]

 

 

Dave, you only yesterday, admitted yourself, that there is more bad feeling toward Celtic than Rangers FC among the Hearts support, yet a recent poll on here suggested otherwise, I would say that more than backs up my theory

[bighusref]

Mind you, speaking of that - where was it in Romanov's case? It's a serious question.

 

Parked outside Pieman's door.

[Robbo27_22]

 

They don't represent my veiws' date=' because my veiws represent the vast majority of Hearts supporters who go to the games veiws [/quote']

 

I go to the games as do the people who shared my views on the matter.

 

You are just coming across as a sanctimonious **** now.

[PresidentRomanov]

 

I go to the games as do the people who shared my views on the matter.

 

You are just coming across as a sanctimonious **** now.

 

Hence why I said the vast majority, and not all

[shaun.lawson]

Parked outside Pieman's door.

 

Hehehe! Of course, I could go further back, and ask where it was in Robinson's case when he and Deans rode to the rescue too. But then, I guess it was parked outside Mercer's door in the south of France...

[MacDonald Jardine]

Come on mate!

 

You are not seriously suggesting that a bunch as sceptical, untrusting and pessimistic as Hearts fans would not have had their own faction expressing their concern if there was any sleight of hand or dubiety?

 

The reason that Hearts fans were not fearful as we were not in danger, it was Hibs that could have been obliterated.

 

As for what has been written since, anything that has been written since that suggests that it was anything other than a hostile takeover that would have removed Hibs from the map is incorrect, sorry but it is just the way it is, or to be more accurate, it is the way it was.

 

Personally I always had my doubts.

In practice it would have been a takeover and nothing was said at the time but I always had a suspicion that after a few years we would have a change of name to something with Edinburgh in it

We certainly would have moved stadium, and at the time Millerhill was Mercer's favourite.

 

I'm always surprised at Mercer's statement of surprise about "tribalism" in Edinburgh. He generally gave the impression he understood that, and seemed to actually endorse it to an extent.

[bighusref]

Hehehe! Of course, I could go further back, and ask where it was in Robinson's case when he and Deans rode to the rescue too. But then, I guess it was parked outside Mercer's door in the south of France...

 

You aint far wrong tbh.

 

In all seriousness though, I wasn't on here pre VR but there was definitely scepticism about him, just not a lot due to our circumstances. The concern surrounded his failed attempts in Dundee and Dunfermline, but given the way things were going with the club, we as fans were primed to believe, we were desperate for something to believe in or someone to come and save us. At the time, if you were not as bad as CPR you were a hero.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Nothing could be more satisfying than thousands of vermin roaring and greeting in Lochend as the locks are put on Easter Road for the last time.

 

Wishing for Hibs to survive is essentially wishing for them to be successful, imo.

[shaun.lawson]

You aint far wrong tbh.

 

In all seriousness though, I wasn't on here pre VR but there was definitely scepticism about him, just not a lot due to our circumstances. The concern surrounded his failed attempts in Dundee and Dunfermline, but given the way things were going with the club, we as fans were primed to believe, we were desperate for something to believe in or someone to come and save us. At the time, if you were not as bad as CPR you were a hero.

 

Completely agree.

[Sherlock]

Defo wasn't my wish. I'm talking about the real end of the day scenario - not the watching them squirm effect.

 

As I said earlier in the thread, can you imagine a world without looking forward to the next embarassment of the Hubz?

 

If that's a yes, then I can only imagine you lived through the late 60's/early 70's.

 

What could possibly be a bigger embarrassment than being put out of existence by your biggest rivals?

 

As i said, we must have moved in different circles. To this day, my friends and i all wish that hibs had been put of their misery and hope that one day this will happen.

 

I've said previously, being our whipping boys is not a good enough reason for their continued existence.