TARTAN ARMADA

[The People's Chimp]

I was all set to question, as others have done, why so many Scots seem to be against the national team. But the thing is, throughout the Euro 2008 qualifiers, I wanted England to fail - and had a deeply detached attitude to our World Cup games against Ecuador and Portugal. Something snapped in me during the Sweden game in Germany: our performance was so laughable, so slapstick, that I became convinced we'd never be able to achieve anything without root and branch change throughout the game here.

 

I went on one of my best ever internet rants too:

 

http://www.football4less.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8637

 

So because McClaren represented no change, just more incompetence, I supported our opponents, and laughed myself silly when we were knocked out. I'm back onside now - at least we have one of the world's best coaches in charge - but still have my doubts, given the root and branch change still hasn't happened.

 

But in Scotland's case: well, it must be depressing. You had a tremendous side between the late 60s and early 80s; but so many incarnations since have been so dull, so stuffy, so plain tepid. There's no sense of joy within the team at all: nothing exciting or vibrant. So I can understand why you feel as you do. From my point of view, at least England have regular false dawns from time to time (usually around a year or so before a World Cup, so the next one's due) - Scotland just seem to drift on to nowhere in particular, much to the cost of my bank account come November!

 

That's true up to a point; the france game at hampden was special, and, well, mcfadden's goal in paris was straight out of the top drawer. I've yet to see a pub come even close to the mayhem when that went in. So, no, people haven't given up.

 

But, the italy game and the decision* which led to the italy goal at the end knocked the stuffing out of everyone. Burley has hardly set the heather on fire I have to say, and that's not helped...

 

 

*all too familiar to a hearts fan.

[Therapist]

Three things though:

 

1. International tournaments are played in the summer. British, high tempo stuff just doesn't work as well in the heat. Nonsense. Conditioning is everything. If this weren't the case, how can athletes run marathons in hot/humid conditions?

 

2. When Liverpool or Forest won the European Cup, they bored the pants off everyone with a possession game which amounted to organised tedium. No they didn't.

 

3. Scotland's results in 1986 and 1990 were essentially the same as those which had gone before. Qualify for the World Cup against the odds (for Italia 90, ahead of France!); get knocked out in the first round once there. Stein did the ground work for our repeated failure to qualify for future tournaments. 1998 was a one-off.

 

:yes2:

[Boab]

Was your style at the 1982 World Cup any different to what had gone before? I wouldn't know, because I've never seen any of it - but something seemed to change at some point in the early or mid-80s.

 

I wouldn't say you were a glory hunter: respectability hunter would be nearer the mark. It's a tricky one for smaller countries though. Without sacrificing our best qualities in the process, England have to become more flexible and somewhat more 'continental' if we're ever to break through; but when smaller countries try it, they usually end up throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I don't think it's a coincidence that Eire's best team played extremely stereotypical British football; ditto Wales' only great side in 1958 too.

 

On the subject of style,i recently watched some of the Scotland/Yugoslavia World Cup game and some of Scotland's passing football was terrific.I seen Scotland more than a few times at Hampden between the early 70's to mid 80's and agree with Therapist that Stein's approach was more guarded,if that's the word.Some fantastic players hung up their boots mid 80's,maybe too hard to fill?

[shaun.lawson]

:yes2:

 

It's not "nonsense". If you're up against opponents who are better on the ball technically than you are, and are playing in conditions they're more used to and grew up in, of course it's harder to play a game which requires monumental levels of fitness and for you never to give the ball away. Even more so if you go in with four in the middle against your opponents' five. In 2006, Germany appeared to be an exception - but Klinsmann had two years of friendlies in which to develop the right side, far more time than international managers in Britain enjoy, and lo and behold: they're in decline now, because their technical limitations are just too much.

 

In almost every game England or Ireland have played at a major tournament since 1990, we or they have performed better in the evening than the afternoon. It's not a coincidence. You've also ignored the huge proliferation of the game worldwide over the last 20 or 30 years: all sorts of countries are now vastly better organised and coached, which together with their technical qualities, makes them far tougher opponents.

 

Lastly - can you not remember Forest's two European Cup finals? **** me they were boring!

[The Old Tolbooth]

Whilst I always like to see Scotland win, I cant help thinking that with the ineffective Ferguson, the calamatous McGregor, the pensioners of Weir and Caldwell, and the headless chicken of Miller in the line up, that the Dutch could score as many as they like, I predict Holland 5 Scotland 0.

[shaun.lawson]

That's true up to a point; the france game at hampden was special, and, well, mcfadden's goal in paris was straight out of the top drawer. I've yet to see a pub come even close to the mayhem when that went in. So, no, people haven't given up.

 

But, the italy game and the decision* which led to the italy goal at the end knocked the stuffing out of everyone. Burley has hardly set the heather on fire I have to say, and that's not helped...

 

 

*all too familiar to a hearts fan.

 

True. But you could say the same for all sorts of decisions against England over the years (the Hand of God, or the disallowed goals against Argentina in '98 or Portugal in '04, both of which I agreed with, but most of my compatriots didn't), and it's not finished us off yet! Also, it would've been a scandal had Scotland only needed a draw; but as it was, you were heading out anyway. And that was McLeish's fault for picking a ridiculous side in Georgia.

 

I thought your Euro 2008 performance and subsequent higher seeding should've been a base from which you could build and reach South Africa. But it hasn't: you've started heading back in the other direction again, which is a shame. There's no reason why Scotland shouldn't qualify for things, and like most second or third-tier nations, reaching the last 16 of a World Cup should be the ultimate goal. That'd represent real, indubitable success in my book.

[shaun.lawson]

Whilst I always like to see Scotland win, I cant help thinking that with the ineffective Ferguson, the calamatous McGregor, the pensioners of Weir and Caldwell, and the headless chicken of Miller in the line up, that the Dutch could score as many as they like, I predict Holland 5 Scotland 0.

 

2-0 to the Oranje is my bet. 2nd place for Scotland in the group remains my guess too - though I'm worried you'll end up eliminated as the worst runners-up.

[The Old Tolbooth]

 

2. When Liverpool or Forest won the European Cup, they bored the pants off everyone with a possession game which amounted to organised tedium.

.

 

Sorry Shaun, but that's utter nonsense mate, both Liverpool and Notts Forest played some brilliant football when they were Euro champs in the 70's and 80's, I remember watching it and you just don't get football like that very often nowadays.

 

Villa, Everton, Spurs, Arsenal, Ipswich etc all played some bloody decent stuff back in those days, and the standard of the English game was very high, and very good to watch.

[The Old Tolbooth]

2-0 to the Oranje is my bet. 2nd place for Scotland in the group remains my guess too - though I'm worried you'll end up eliminated as the worst runners-up.

 

I reckon Scotland will finish 3rd in the group because we need to get a result in Norway due to our inept home performance against them, and under Burley it wont happen mate.

[neave]

 

You cannot choose which country to be born in so be proud of who you are and what it stands for -- a country who are not the best but will strive to be so and will make the best of their limited abilities -- the fact that we may have poor managers and players from time to time does not mean we should not want them to win in every sport -- if you don't then you are Traitors -- fact !

 

Aaaaaahahaha.

 

[Therapist]

2-0 to the Oranje is my bet. 2nd place for Scotland in the group remains my guess too - though I'm worried you'll end up eliminated as the worst runners-up.

 

Remember our bet Shaun.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Skybet are offering 1/5 on Scotland not qualifying= buying money

[shaun.lawson]

Sorry Shaun, but that's utter nonsense mate, both Liverpool and Notts Forest played some brilliant football when they were Euro champs in the 70's and 80's, I remember watching it and you just don't get football like that very often nowadays.

 

Villa, Everton, Spurs, Arsenal, Ipswich etc all played some bloody decent stuff back in those days, and the standard of the English game was very high, and very good to watch.

 

Both sides have been romanticised since as part of some golden era. I've watched plenty of footage of both in Europe, and completely disagree. There were great moments, certainly (notably Liverpool's comeback against St Etienne), but both were notably more circumspect than you might expect.

 

Taking Liverpool as an example John - with occasional exceptions such as the extraordinary side of 1987/8, Liverpool's style of pass and move is and has always been different to that of Man Utd, Spurs at their (1960s-1980s) best or Arsenal now. Chelsea, who've played in what I'd call a quasi-'Italian' way for over a decade, are closer to it.

 

Liverpool's traditional style is slow - or at least, slower than a number of English clubs. It was at its most extreme under Roy Evans, when it was unbelievable how often his side allowed their opponents to get everyone behind the ball. And Evans, of course, was a key member of the Anfield bootroom for several decades.

[shaun.lawson]

Remember our bet Shaun.

 

I remember it every day Therapist. D'oh!

[Therapist]

Liverpool's traditional style is slow - or at least, slower than a number of English clubs.

 

Shaun, stop making a fool of yourself. By your own admission you were not "football aware" in those days. The Liverpool teams I'm referring to had massive pace - Heighway, Keegan, Ray Kennedy, Rush, attacking full backs.

[shaun.lawson]

I reckon Scotland will finish 3rd in the group because we need to get a result in Norway due to our inept home performance against them, and under Burley it wont happen mate.

 

I think you'll get a draw there - I really, really don't rate Norway - and beat Holland reserves 1-0 in your last game at Hampden.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Skybet are offering 1/5 on Scotland not qualifying= buying money

 

Quite poor odds if you ask me.

 

You would have to put on some serious money to get something back from that and it's by no means a cert.

 

I'm hoping for plenty goals next week (hopefully for Scotland) because me and the lads are playing a football drinking game and a 0-0 would be a disaster. Still get reeking mind you.

[shaun.lawson]

Shaun, stop making a fool of yourself. By your own admission you were not "football aware" in those days. The Liverpool teams I'm referring to had massive pace - Heighway, Keegan, Ray Kennedy, Rush, attacking full backs.

 

But their style when passing the ball was different. There's a reason why Man Utd fans tend to demand entertainment as well as results; Liverpool fans, not so much. Chelsea have had plenty of pace in recent years too - but again, have had a very different style from Man Utd or Arsenal.

[Therapist]

Skybet are offering 1/5 on Scotland not qualifying= buying money

 

I got evens off Shaun.

[shaun.lawson]

I got evens off Shaun.

 

[Jimmy McNulty]

Anyone on the first Ferry Leaving Newcastle for the Dam on Thursday? 50+ of us going from the Tap Shop in Mid Calder. Should be bouncing!

 

Is the wife going with you? Or....

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Quite poor odds if you ask me.

 

You would have to put on some serious money to get something back from that and it's by no means a cert.

 

I'm hoping for plenty goals next week (hopefully for Scotland) because me and the lads are playing a football drinking game and a 0-0 would be a disaster. Still get reeking mind you.

 

Hopefully it will be won by the odd goal in 37 then

[The Old Tolbooth]

Both sides have been romanticised since as part of some golden era. I've watched plenty of footage of both in Europe, and completely disagree. There were great moments, certainly (notably Liverpool's comeback against St Etienne), but both were notably more circumspect than you might expect.

 

Taking Liverpool as an example John - with occasional exceptions such as the extraordinary side of 1987/8, Liverpool's style of pass and move is and has always been different to that of Man Utd, Spurs at their (1960s-1980s) best or Arsenal now. Chelsea, who've played in what I'd call a quasi-'Italian' way for over a decade, are closer to it.

 

Liverpool's traditional style is slow - or at least, slower than a number of English clubs. It was at its most extreme under Roy Evans, when it was unbelievable how often his side allowed their opponents to get everyone behind the ball. And Evans, of course, was a key member of the Anfield bootroom for several decades.

 

When Evans was manager I hated Liverpool's style of play, it was so boring it was unreal, but then it's not been that great under Benitez either.

 

Under Shankly, Fagan, Paisley and even to an extent Dalgliesh (although I think he basically just ran the end of the golden era) I thought Liverpool were superb to watch, I loved their passing play and the way they simply destroyed teams, it was a joy to watch at times, yes it maybe did get a bit robotic, but jesus they knew how to score goals and close games out, very professional.

 

The European nights at Anfield were special, I cant recall anyone going there and turning them over, and if they needed a result, they always got it, you don't do that by playing boring football mate.

 

Of all the sides in the 80's that I thought could challenge Liverpool, I always thought that Everton looked the most likely, I liked their styel of play also and there were some cracking derby matches, Everton were dead unlucky that Liverpool were so good at the time or they would have won more.

[portobellojambo1]

I was all set to question, as others have done, why so many Scots seem to be against the national team.

 

I am not against the Scottish national team as such Shaun, I can just no longer get excited about them either, I am neither up nor down if they win or lose, I really don't care.

 

Yet strangely, and it is something I cannot explain, if I were not going to Ibrox tomorrow I would sit and watch the England v Scotland rugby match passionately hoping for a Scotland win. As I say I cannot explain it in any way. When a Scottish national team competes in any other sport I watch with interest to see how they get on (e.g. when Scotland got a team into the cricket World Cup I watched to see how they did, similarly I watched the Scotland games in the recent (ish) Rugby League World Cup in Australia to see how we got on, etc. etc.) but with Scottish international football I just cannot get into it any more. It may have something to do with the fact an element of the support have turned supporting the Scottish football team into something more political, are using the team to try and make a statement, I really don't know, but I just cannot get excited at all.

 

Football wise my interest is Hearts, the week in week out stuff, rather than switching on once or twice every two or three months, or whatever.

 

Have some good memories of Scotland games I have attended, also some bad ones, but those are all way in the past now. I think the last Scotland game I was at was Scotland versus Russia at Hampden, at a wild guess mid 90's (finished 1-1), and if I am honest I was bored out of my skull.

[Therapist]

But their style when passing the ball was different.

 

Liverpool were also entertaining.

 

You probably think Liverpool were some sort of red "machine", but they had a series of very entertaining sides.

 

Much as I dislike the scallies, credit where credit is due.

[The Old Tolbooth]

I got evens off Shaun.

 

[Tazio]

This thread is the Kickback equivalent of Extreme Fishing With Robson Green.

 

Anyway I would hate to be on that ferry, lots of yokels who judge you on the amount of badges you have on your scarf from foreign countries and how big the feather on your hat is.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

I got evens off Shaun.

 

What do they teach them at those fancy Universities?

[Therapist]

What do they teach them at those fancy Universities?

 

Clearly, they don't teach statistics, probability or logic. :saddam:

[shaun.lawson]

When Evans was manager I hated Liverpool's style of play, it was so boring it was unreal, but then it's not been that great under Benitez either.

 

Under Shankly, Fagan, Paisley and even to an extent Dalgliesh (although I think he basically just ran the end of the golden era) I thought Liverpool were superb to watch, I loved their passing play and the way they simply destroyed teams, it was a joy to watch at times, yes it maybe did get a bit robotic, but jesus they knew how to score goals and close games out, very professional.

 

The European nights at Anfield were special, I cant recall anyone going there and turning them over, and if they needed a result, they always got it, you don't do that by playing boring football mate.

 

Of all the sides in the 80's that I thought could challenge Liverpool, I always thought that Everton looked the most likely, I liked their styel of play also and there were some cracking derby matches, Everton were dead unlucky that Liverpool were so good at the time or they would have won more.

 

Fair enough John. It may be, I guess, that whenever I watch a game from back then, all games are so much slower I can't get my head around it! Try it sometime: it's such a shock when you see the goalie pick the ball up from a backpass and the ref barely add on any stoppage time at all. And with fitness levels much more inferior too, it all plays its part.

 

But you know much more about Liverpool then than I do, so fair dos. I'm with you on Everton, by the way: that was a brilliant side which should have won the title three times on the bounce, and surely would've won the European Cup too. Alan Hansen's argued that the 85/6 double winners were seriously weak by Liverpool's standards: what do you reckon?

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

I know folk are just looking for a reaction on this thread but I really don't get the bitterness towards the national team.

 

It's not a choice between Hearts or Scotland. The amount of times I've heard someone say 'Hearts come first' aye, that's very good, but it doesn't make one bit of difference because they aren't linked in any way.

 

I love going to the boozer (or the occasional game) and supporting Scotland with my mates and the rest of the nation. Feel sorry for the guys that have a chip on their shoulder because you are missing out on a great time.

[Toxteth O'Grady]

Clearly, they don't teach statistics, probability or logic. :saddam:

 

I was going to suggest that he could lay the bet but who knows what he might get up to:biglaugh:

[shaun.lawson]

What do they teach them at those fancy Universities?

 

Total and utter stupidity.

[shaun.lawson]

I was going to suggest that he could lay the bet but who knows what he might get up to:biglaugh:

 

Now really. There's no call for that.

[Tazio]

It's not a choice between Hearts or Scotland.

 

As I have always said. I support Hearts because I chose to, I support Scotland because I have no choice. Therefore the conscious decision will always be closer to my heart.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

As I have always said. I support Hearts because I chose to, I support Scotland because I have no choice. Therefore the conscious decision will always be closer to my heart.

 

Closer to your heart is fine and understandable. It's when people say 'Hearts come first' that I don't understand ... no one comes first ... it's not a competition. There is no need to make a choice.

 

I don't know who is closer to my Heart. I find myself supporting Scotland with just as much passion as I do when I support Hearts. I'm usually absolutely gutted after a Scotland defeat so it's a tough one.

 

I chose to support Hearts but I'm also very proud of my nation so it's probably about equal for me although all my time and financial support suggests Hearts are closer to my Heart.

[Therapist]

There is no need to make a choice.

 

:7: :7:

 

Yes there is.

 

Let's take a simple example. You have enough money to attend either a Hearts game or a Scotland game but not both. Which do you choose?

[Tazio]

Closer to your heart is fine and understandable. It's when people say 'Hearts come first' that I don't understand ... no one comes first ... it's not a competition. There is no need to make a choice.

 

There is no choice process. Hearts are who I support.

[shaun.lawson]

I am not against the Scottish national team as such Shaun, I can just no longer get excited about them either, I am neither up nor down if they win or lose, I really don't care.

 

Yet strangely, and it is something I cannot explain, if I were not going to Ibrox tomorrow I would sit and watch the England v Scotland rugby match passionately hoping for a Scotland win. As I say I cannot explain it in any way. When a Scottish national team competes in any other sport I watch with interest to see how they get on (e.g. when Scotland got a team into the cricket World Cup I watched to see how they did, similarly I watched the Scotland games in the recent (ish) Rugby League World Cup in Australia to see how we got on, etc. etc.) but with Scottish international football I just cannot get into it any more. It may have something to do with the fact an element of the support have turned supporting the Scottish football team into something more political, are using the team to try and make a statement, I really don't know, but I just cannot get excited at all.

 

Football wise my interest is Hearts, the week in week out stuff, rather than switching on once or twice every two or three months, or whatever.

 

Have some good memories of Scotland games I have attended, also some bad ones, but those are all way in the past now. I think the last Scotland game I was at was Scotland versus Russia at Hampden, at a wild guess mid 90's (finished 1-1), and if I am honest I was bored out of my skull.

 

Interesting. I think I remember that Russia game: was it a Euro 96 qualifier? Remember too that most people only get into international football when it's major tournament time - so maybe your feelings will change when/if Scotland qualify for something again? Certainly, all the daft levels of hype/celebrity/football as the "in thing" down here resulted in part from England playing at six major tournaments on the bounce - and I'd say it's finally calmed down a bit since we bombed at the World Cup and made total fools of ourselves in Euro 2008 qualifying.

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

:7: :7:

 

Yes there is.

 

Let's take a simple example. You have enough money to attend either a Hearts game or a Scotland game but not both. Which do you choose?

 

Have Hearts and Scotland ever played on the same day? Not in my time anyway.

[Independence]

Anyone on the first Ferry Leaving Newcastle for the Dam on Thursday? 50+ of us going from the Tap Shop in Mid Calder. Should be bouncing!

 

Good luck and gie it laldy.

 

Ignore those KB's who are obviously Unionist bigots and who continue to disgrace our club with their cheap shots!

[shaun.lawson]

:7: :7:

 

Yes there is.

 

Let's take a simple example. You have enough money to attend either a Hearts game or a Scotland game but not both. Which do you choose?

 

I don't think that's a fair question. Few Scotland or England games are that important - but at a major tournament in another country, it's a wholly different thing.

[Adi Dassler]

Good luck and gie it laldy.

 

Ignore those KB's who are obviously Unionist bigots and who continue to disgrace our club with their cheap shots!

 

[Tazio]

Good luck and gie it laldy.

 

Ignore those KB's who are obviously Unionist bigots and who continue to disgrace our club with their cheap shots!

 

Or maybe just Hearts fans first and foremost?

[shaun.lawson]

Good luck and gie it laldy.

 

Ignore those KB's who are obviously Unionist bigots and who continue to disgrace our club with their cheap shots!

 

Probably 95% of fans in England favour club over country too. Are they "unionist bigots" as well?

[Independence]

:7: :7:

 

Yes there is.

 

Let's take a simple example. You have enough money to attend either a Hearts game or a Scotland game but not both. Which do you choose?

 

Pathetic question but very expected!

 

Hearts = My club team.

Scotland = My nation therefore my National team.

 

You will find that this is the way football is supported the world over.

 

I think that you are a very bitter person who is part of a small minority who would wish a UK team to follow. IT AINT GOING TO HAPPEN!!!!

[Mr Romanov Saviour of HMFC]

Probably 95% of fans in England favour club over country too. Are they "unionist bigots" as well?

 

The Scousers remind me of Therapist and co's attitude (they won't like that )

 

They completely ignore England results and are Liverpool only.

[Therapist]

Have Hearts and Scotland ever played on the same day? Not in my time anyway.

 

:7: :7: :7:

 

Where did I say they were playing on the same day? My only reference was that one has a finite amount of money to spend on one game.

[Independence]

 

[The White Cockade]

Or maybe just Hearts fans first and foremost?

 

except when they are supporting Chelsea, Linfield and England?

Mr Mitty continually gives us his "I support all the British teams" guff

Except Scotland it seems

Still i'm sure he was a big fan when they still played GSTQ at Scotland games:qqb003: