118-118 What did Big Jock Know?

[djf]

Out of interest, anyone know why "Hun" is deemed sectarian by NBM? Derogatory term for Rangers fans, yes, but how is it sectarian? I wasn't aware it was a term for any group of people of particular religion?

 

History lesson appreciated...

 

Because it's a nice simple way for NBM to pay lip service to a complicated problem. Like they do with pretty much every single one area of OF sectarianism.

[The Gasman]

Because it's a nice simple way for NBM to pay lip service to a complicated problem. Like they do with pretty much every single one area of OF sectarianism.

 

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

NBM tinkering round the edges and trying to hide the symptoms, rather than attempting to tackle the actual disease.

[John S]

......getting back to the OP.

 

Certain Celtic fans (also known as (vic)tims, even to some of their own fans) are claiming 118 is being bigoted for telling the truth. It is a claim both sides of the divide use to help hide any inconvienient facts that do not fit with their respective version's of "factual" history.

 

As for NBM, while I would fully support their aims, I have no time for the way they go about it. I have friends who are Rangers fans, and who would happily describe themselves as Huns. I have friends who are Celtic fans, a d who would happily describe themselves as Tims.

 

NBM trying to get these words banned is just political correctness gone mad, and IMHO, will do absolutely nothing to reduce Bigotry in Scotland, just alienate (and criminalise ?) the very people they have to engage.

 

If we want to make a difference, let's start in primary schools (nondenominational ones!) teaching kids to respect each other, regardless of race, religion, football team, disability, etc, etc. But then, trying to get rid of denominational schools would make me an anti-catholic bigot in the eyes of some.

 

So let's not try to do anything that might work, let's just play at it by "banning" some fairly innocuous words, then pat ourselves on the back for a job well done. We can just ignore the fact that we might criminalise innocent people, and leave the real bigots to carry on regardless.

 

A pretty thorough analysis of the situation Gasman; I think you've nailed it.

[Boaby Ewing]

I'll continue to use Hun and Tim thank you very much, unless anyone can convince me they're actually sectarian...

[Super T]

As was Sheriff Iain Peebles, It seems. His call I guess.

 

 

'HUN' is sectarian, as proved in court of law.

Celtic fan in court over T-shirt jibe

 

The Herald

 

A Celtic fan was arrested on the night of the Uefa Cup final for wearing a T-shirt that predicted Zenit St Petersburg's win over Rangers, a court heard yesterday.

 

Michael Devlin was spotted wearing the top, which had the words "dirty horrible huns" scrawled across the back, just minutes after the game in Manchester.

 

The top also had "Zenit St Petersburg, Champions Uefa Cup Final 2008" printed on the front. The 20-year-old was walking along Glasgow's Hillington Road South with friends when two police officers noticed the T-shirt and stopped him.

 

Sheriff Iain Peebles told Devlin: "This was an act of gross crassness and stupidity taking into account the timing and the place you were when wearing the T-shirt."

 

At Glasgow Sheriff Court, Devlin, of Gleddoch Road, Glasgow, was convicted of committing a religiously aggravated breach of the peace on May 14 this year.

 

The court heard that Devlin had been watching the game in a house with friends when the group decided to go out and get a takeaway at the end of the match.

 

Constable Andrew Gunn told the court he and his colleague were out on another call when they spotted the Celtic fan with a crowd of youths at around 10.10pm.

 

Mr Gunn said: "I informed him that the T-shirt was offensive and told him to take it off. He had a Celtic top on underneath. There were members of the public there and Rangers fans were walking along Paisley Road West nearby.

 

"There were no other difficulties, just that he was wearing that T-shirt."

 

Defence lawyer Bob Mackinnon told the court that the top was just a bit of "Glasgow banter".

 

He said: "From school to university to working life, almost everyone in Glasgow is affected by this divide and will get on the case of their friends and colleagues."

 

However, Sheriff Peebles told the court his decision was based purely on law. He deferred sentencing on Devlin until October next year for him to be of good behaviour.

 

I would like to know under what law this decision was based? Fair game the boy was probably a wee ned out for a wind-up but he was standing in the street wearing a t-shirt that nobody had made any complaints about. Then when asked by a policeman to remove it he did so with no issue and yet he gets a conviction for it!!!

Absolute madness!!!

[Super T]

......getting back to the OP.

 

Certain Celtic fans (also known as (vic)tims, even to some of their own fans) are claiming 118 is being bigoted for telling the truth. It is a claim both sides of the divide use to help hide any inconvienient facts that do not fit with their respective version's of "factual" history.

 

As for NBM, while I would fully support their aims, I have no time for the way they go about it. I have friends who are Rangers fans, and who would happily describe themselves as Huns. I have friends who are Celtic fans, a d who would happily describe themselves as Tims.

 

NBM trying to get these words banned is just political correctness gone mad, and IMHO, will do absolutely nothing to reduce Bigotry in Scotland, just alienate (and criminalise ?) the very people they have to engage.

 

If we want to make a difference, let's start in primary schools (nondenominational ones!) teaching kids to respect each other, regardless of race, religion, football team, disability, etc, etc. But then, trying to get rid of denominational schools would make me an anti-catholic bigot in the eyes of some.

 

So let's not try to do anything that might work, let's just play at it by "banning" some fairly innocuous words, then pat ourselves on the back for a job well done. We can just ignore the fact that we might criminalise innocent people, and leave the real bigots to carry on regardless.

 

Absolutely on the money with that post.

[The Gasman]

I would like to know under what law this decision was based? Fair game the boy was probably a wee ned out for a wind-up but he was standing in the street wearing a t-shirt that nobody had made any complaints about. Then when asked by a policeman to remove it he did so with no issue and yet he gets a conviction for it!!!

Absolute madness!!!

 

 

 

I'm confused by this as well.

 

As there was no actual Breech of the Peace in the first place (as confirmed by the arresting officer) I can't see how the guy could actually be found guilty of Religiously Aggrivated Breech of the Peace.

 

He may well be an erss, to I do not see what he's done to justify him now having a criminal record. This case will have cost the public purse thousands, and IMHO a half decent Lawer would tear appart the conviction at an appeal hearing. Still everyone concerned can feel all warm and fuzzy that this will have helped cure Scotland of it's sectairian shame.

 

On a slightly different point, and if I was at all cynical, I might suspect that the police in this case may have had an ulterior motive. They were on their way to another job when they decided to nick this guy for his dubious taste in clothing. Now, just supposing that original job had been something like a fight in a pub (not unheard of after a game like that) which would you suppose the police would rather do ?

 

Get involved in something where they could get hurt ?

 

Or lift some wee nobody who's doing nothing, then spend the rest of your shift in the safety and comfort of the police station filling out paperwork ?

[Super T]

On a slightly different point, and if I was at all cynical, I might suspect that the police in this case may have had an ulterior motive. They were on their way to another job when they decided to nick this guy for his dubious taste in clothing. Now, just supposing that original job had been something like a fight in a pub (not unheard of after a game like that) which would you suppose the police would rather do ?

 

Get involved in something where they could get hurt ?

 

Or lift some wee nobody who's doing nothing, then spend the rest of your shift in the safety and comfort of the police station filling out paperwork ?

 

Surely your not trying to suggest that the glasgow polis would rather take a soft option than deal with the proper erseholes of Celtic and Rangers fans that blight the place, in the same way that they would rather pick on a couple of away fans than deal with the actual core problems :xmassick:

[Captain Lithuania]

I think the article typifies just how childish the OF fans are, along with the Hokey Cockey outrage.

 

The section of clowns within our support who sing Britannia, and God save the queen also sing Big Jock knew. I think it's childish and immature. If he had known he would have either gotten rid of the coach or reported the matter.

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

The section of clowns within our support who sing Britannia, and God save the queen also sing Big Jock knew. I think it's childish and immature. If he had known he would have either gotten rid of the coach or reported the matter.

 

He was aware, Brazil said so in his book.

[shaun.lawson]

He was aware, Brazil said so in his book.

 

So you take the account of a drunken racist as gospel, then?

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

So you take the account of a drunken racist as gospel, then?

 

As someone who was there yes, i think his memories of the situation are more relevant than those of people who merely surmise.

[shaun.lawson]

As someone who was there yes, i think his memories of the situation are more relevant than those of people who merely surmise.

 

And it wouldn't be just like the aforementioned racist drunk to sensationalise things in order to sell his book? Just like he sensationalises and provokes on the radio all the time?

[davemclaren]

As someone who was there yes, i think his memories of the situation are more relevant than those of people who merely surmise.

 

So it's one man's word against....has anyone corroborated this?

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

So it's one man's word against....has anyone corroborated this?

 

Are you suggesting he lied under oath?

 

Can you please explain then why JT was removed from Celtic?

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

And it wouldn't be just like the aforementioned racist drunk to sensationalise things in order to sell his book? Just like he sensationalises and provokes on the radio all the time?

 

I believe the court case was well before his book.

[Commander Harris]

So it's one man's word against....has anyone corroborated this?

"There was always talk around Celtic about Torbett and boys, but nothing seemed to be done until Jock Stein found out. He kicked Torbett out, but it was still kept quiet. All the directors and lots of others knew why Torbett got the boot, but it was swept under the carpet."

 

John McLuskey, former Celtic youth player and brother of former Celtic player George McLuskey, in an interview with Anna Smith of the Daily Record 12/08/1996

[davemclaren]

Are you suggesting he lied under oath?

 

Can you please explain then why JT was removed from Celtic?

 

No-one ever lies under oath as you well know. :xmaseye:

 

I'm not suggesting anything, just trying to get some information.

[The Gasman]

Surely your not trying to suggest that the glasgow polis would rather take a soft option than deal with the proper erseholes of Celtic and Rangers fans that blight the place, in the same way that they would rather pick on a couple of away fans than deal with the actual core problems :xmassick:

 

 

 

...........as if anyone would suggest that.

[peckhamjambo]

Back onto the subject about the terms 'Huns' and 'Tims' and how they relate to bigotry - I know that a lot of Rangers and Celtic refer to themselves as either huns or tims, so I cannot see any issue with this point. I doubt whether they would refer to themselves as Orange bar stewards or fenians though.

 

Celtic even have a fanzine called 'e-tims'! http://www.etims.net/

[Guest S.U.S.S.]

Back onto the subject about the terms 'Huns' and 'Tims' and how they relate to bigotry - I know that a lot of Rangers and Celtic refer to themselves as either huns or tims, so I cannot see any issue with this point. I doubt whether they would refer to themselves as Orange bar stewards or fenians though.

 

Celtic even have a fanzine called 'e-tims'! http://www.etims.net/

 

So its ok to use the term [filter edit]?

 

they do in gangster rap!

[Commander Harris]

Back onto the subject about the terms 'Huns' and 'Tims' and how they relate to bigotry - I know that a lot of Rangers and Celtic refer to themselves as either huns or tims, so I cannot see any issue with this point. I doubt whether they would refer to themselves as Orange bar stewards or fenians though.

 

Celtic even have a fanzine called 'e-tims'! http://www.etims.net/

you are correct about "tims". I don't think you'll find Rangers stores called "hunland" or fanzines called "eHuns" though. "Hun" is a definite no-no for the vast majority of Rangers supporters whereas "Tim" is probably celtic fans' preferred label for themselves.

[peckhamjambo]

So its ok to use the term [filter edit]?

 

they do in gangster rap!

 

It is in my hood :xmasgrin:

 

Seriously though, from my understanding, Tim comes from 'Tim Malloy' which is rhyming slang for 'Bhoy' as well as reference to the catholic gangs and Rangers are called huns since the Royal Family derive from Germany (hence the word Hanoverian) and also some had Hungarian roots?

 

Not derogatory in my opinion.

 

As for the Commander's comment, not sure about the assertion that Rangers fans are not comfortable with being called 'huns'. Most of the guys I drink with when there is football on are Rangers fans and happily refer to themselves as huns. However, maybe the fact that we are such a distance from Scotland, and thus maybe a little more removed from things it may be more accpetable down here than up there?

[The People's Chimp]

I'll continue to use Hun and Tim thank you very much, unless anyone can convince me they're actually sectarian...

 

Indeed.

 

NBM are doing themselves a disservice by claiming 'hun' or 'tim' to be sectarian terms, especially given celtic fans run shops around the east end of glasgow called "timland." What of the hearts fan who is a regular attendee at the kirk, and calls rangers 'huns.' Is he being bigotted?

[djf]

So its ok to use the term [filter edit]?

 

they do in gangster rap!

 

But [filter edit] is a racist term :xmasunsure: