Where Is All The Money Coming From?

[The Don]

Lovely use of punctuation and grammar in the above, with the apt, obligatory smiley, to deflect one from one's lack of knowledge on the subject being discussed.

 

You don't have a clue what you're on about, do you?

 

Guessing. Assuming. Presuming. Hoping.

 

Clutching....

 

We have �20M to play with. Our debt cap is �40M.

 

FACT according to your �20M debt up-date.

 

Id hasten a guess that you may be Sir Gay from pegsellers.net my stalker from the EN forums

[N User]

the 05/06 season showed that with some investment you could sustain a title challenge. We had the best team that year but Vlad sabbotaged us.

 

The difference now is quite a bit though.

 

Before Burley came in we already had the spine of a title winning team. Gordon, Pressley, Webster and Hartley.

We don't have that right now. (None of our current players are their quality at that time)

 

The spending in 05/06 was not sustainable because we did not progress (and get more income that comes with progression). We do not have the means to spend the way Burley & Vlad did in 2005 and it would not be wise to do so financially anyway.

 

One or two players on low money but of decent quality is all we can hope for.

[Lay of the Land]

Id hasten a guess that you may be Sir Gay from pegsellers.net my stalker from the EN forums

 

I haven't a pheckin clue what you're on about.

 

You obviously do.

 

Crack on. I'll put you in my ignore file.

[Enzo Chiefo]

Great post.

 

Aberdeen and D. Utd won the SPL (or equivalent) with a shoestring budget compared to the OF.

 

We have that shoestring

 

When Dundee Utd won the league in 1983 they only used 13 players during the course of the entire season. A fantastic achievement that definitely highlights the benefit of playing a settled side. To be fair we have a settled side, compared to last season, but we still need an injection of quality and leadership along with the removal of some of the dead wood from the squad. Maybe getting rid of the dead wood will help to pay for a couple of signings but who knows...

[Only a Game]

So you at least agree Vlad made poot financial decisions in 05/06 which is what i had said that he made a mistake, but now this is being rectified by the reducing of debt. Which then leads on to original posts i made what would people rather have? a large increase to debt to chase a dream and we go living outwith our means again in an already volatile financial climate, or would people prefer we take measures to reduce debt first?

 

Vlad's poorest decision that season was not to follow through on the financial investment by supporting those he had put in place to oversee the investment.

 

He more than doubled on that that poor decision by not even making minimal investment in a team that was one (serious) tie away from the Champions League group stages so we ended up with a team on very decent wages with no way of re-couping the investment except to sell it off. That decision, more than any other, put us back to where we are now.

 

Incidentally, the stand apart, which should be immediatly binned or at least downgraded, I think he's doing a half decent job financially now. (I think he's preparing to sell the club not too far down the line) I just wish he'd come out and tell us the truth about what the real plan is for the team over the next five years so that we all have the same expectations. Stop getting involved in team affairs and tell us the truth about what can be achieved in his view and I think he'd have a lot more people on board than he does now.

[The Don]

I haven't a pheckin clue what you're on about.

 

You obviously do.

 

Crack on. I'll put you in my ignore file.

 

Any more contradictions you would like to add to this debate then?

 

When you first came on here with all of 4 or 5 posts to your name you came out with this nice little gem

 

If what you say is FACT, then we have �20M to play with, given our debt level was curbed at �40M

 

Sell a few "assets" and we'll have more to spend.

 

I don't think we're skint.

 

I foresee a few big names joining us in January and the stand getting given the green-light.

 

I wouldn't worry about the debt. It's Vlad's money after all and we don't really need to pay it back.

 

Then followed that up later with

 

 

Great post.

 

Aberdeen and D. Utd won the SPL (or equivalent) with a shoestring budget compared to the OF.

 

We have that shoestring

 

 

Then went on to back up Only A Game with this, so you were agreeing with his sentiments therefore contradicting yourself yet again.

 

Listen, bud. I've got more than an inkling you may be wasting your time with this one.

 

Read his/her posts

 

All from someone with a mere few posts to his/her name.

 

As i said i suspect your a hobo on awind up, no jambo could ever be so dumb

[The Don]

Vlad's poorest decision that season was not to follow through on the financial investment by supporting those he had put in place to oversee the investment.

 

He more than doubled on that that poor decision by not even making minimal investment in a team that was one (serious) tie away from the Champions League group stages so we ended up with a team on very decent wages with no way of re-couping the investment except to sell it off. That decision, more than any other, put us back to where we are now.

 

Incidentally, the stand apart, which should be immediatly binned or at least downgraded, I think he's doing a half decent job financially now. (I think he's preparing to sell the club not too far down the line) I just wish he'd come out and tell us the truth about what the real plan is for the team over the next five years so that we all have the same expectations. Stop getting involved in team affairs and tell us the truth about what can be achieved in his view and I think he'd have a lot more people on board than he does now.

 

FWIW i agee with a lot of what your saying, and to be honest it frustrates me as well, but i also see the need for financial security within the club. I do think he will sell us and having planning consent in place makes us a worthwhile venture for an outside investor. If we are to believe what we were told about the stand and hotel complex then i could see from a financial position where he wanted to go with it, and could possibly have been a very good investment LONG TERM. Once our debt is reduced firther and IF we have a planning consent we could be an attractive buy for investors.

[fc-1874]

FWIW i agee with a lot of what your saying, and to be honest it frustrates me as well, but i also see the need for financial security within the club. I do think he will sell us and having planning consent in place makes us a worthwhile venture for an outside investor. If we are to believe what we were told about the stand and hotel complex then i could see from a financial position where he wanted to go with it, and could possibly have been a very good investment LONG TERM. Once our debt is reduced firther and IF we have a planning consent we could be an attractive buy for investors.

It may well be that simple:eek:

[Only a Game]

FWIW i agee with a lot of what your saying, and to be honest it frustrates me as well, but i also see the need for financial security within the club. I do think he will sell us and having planning consent in place makes us a worthwhile venture for an outside investor. If we are to believe what we were told about the stand and hotel complex then i could see from a financial position where he wanted to go with it, and could possibly have been a very good investment LONG TERM. Once our debt is reduced firther and IF we have a planning consent we could be an attractive buy for investors.

 

The stand complex is a good long term investment for the CURRENT OWNER if he is prepared to do what it takes to get people to pay to use it. That means putting a team on the park that will attract 20,000 season ticket holders IMO. It also means getting the hotel product right for the market or selling it off for a profit as soon as its built.

 

Having little or no debt in REAL TERMS, PLUS planning permission makes us a decent investment for someone prepared to develop what we have IMO.

 

Building that stand, or starting to build it will put off any other prospective buyer IMO because they would need to immediatly cover the costs of the stand plus whatever the market value of rest of the club is. The investment potential doesnt get any better until that stand has paid for itself and we are back in positive equity which will take at least 20 years if they keep the hotel as a going concern IMO

 

I just cant see the viability of investing ?51 million in a club that turns over ?12 million pa and a hotel that couldnt make more than ?3 million a year in clear profit even operating at its maximum capacity.

 

As I said, I thoroughly believe he's preparing to sell in the short to medium term and building that stand makes that impossible for him in the short to medium term, so it wont be done.

[Francis Albert]

Okay your being pedantic in his defence but I see that even you are speaking in the past tense about the project now so I guess Ive made my point.

 

I'm being pedantic?

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

The stand complex is a good long term investment for the CURRENT OWNER if he is prepared to do what it takes to get people to pay to use it. That means putting a team on the park that will attract 20,000 season ticket holders IMO. It also means getting the hotel product right for the market or selling it off for a profit as soon as its built.

 

Having little or no debt in REAL TERMS, PLUS planning permission makes us a decent investment for someone prepared to develop what we have IMO.

 

Building that stand, or starting to build it will put off any other prospective buyer IMO because they would need to immediatly cover the costs of the stand plus whatever the market value of rest of the club is. The investment potential doesnt get any better until that stand has paid for itself and we are back in positive equity which will take at least 20 years if they keep the hotel as a going concern IMO

 

I just cant see the viability of investing ?51 million in a club that turns over ?12 million pa and a hotel that couldnt make more than ?3 million a year in clear profit even operating at its maximum capacity.

 

As I said, I thoroughly believe he's preparing to sell in the short to medium term and building that stand makes that impossible for him in the short to medium term, so it wont be done.

 

I agree but the real question is financing of the stand. We don't know how much of Vlad's personal wealth or his companies' wealth has been burnt in the credit crash (I'm referring to UBIG here).

[Francis Albert]

I just cant see the viability of investing ?51 million in a club that turns over ?12 million pa and a hotel that couldnt make more than ?3 million a year in clear profit even operating at its maximum capacity.

 

 

No-one has (or is) proposing a ?51m investment in "a club".

[davemclaren]

I agree but the real question is financing of the stand. We don't know how much of Vlad's personal wealth or his companies' wealth has been burnt in the credit crash (I'm referring to UBIG here).

 

Any stand will only ever be built if VR thinks the hotel etc...alongside will make the money to pay for it. It was a risky business prior to the credit crunch and it would take a brave man to go ahead with it now.

[Only a Game]

No-one has (or is) proposing a ?51m investment in "a club".

 

I have no figures which tell me what proportion of the ?51 million is directly football club related and which is hotel/conference centre/apartments related. but if he wants to build a stand alone hotel complex as a singular going concern I can think of plenty of other more lucrative locations than Gorgie, attached to a football club.

 

Is it not one of the core plans that the revenue from the complex as a whole is meant entirely for the benefit of the football club and therefore the ?51million investment is "in the club"

[Only a Game]

Any stand will only ever be built if VR thinks the hotel etc...alongside will make the money to pay for it. It was a risky business prior to the credit crunch and it would take a brave man to go ahead with it now.

 

I think another key is that he gets more land than he needs so that he can sell off the unused land for housing (i.e The entire Tynie High School footprint)

 

A sucessful hotel of the type proposed might return ?3 million clear profit in a year (after the credit crunch) if run independantly. I cant see how there would be a market to build it and sell it on right away and not enough guaranteed return to build it and have it chain managed.

[The Don]

The stand complex is a good long term investment for the CURRENT OWNER if he is prepared to do what it takes to get people to pay to use it. That means putting a team on the park that will attract 20,000 season ticket holders IMO. It also means getting the hotel product right for the market or selling it off for a profit as soon as its built.

 

Having little or no debt in REAL TERMS, PLUS planning permission makes us a decent investment for someone prepared to develop what we have IMO.

 

Building that stand, or starting to build it will put off any other prospective buyer IMO because they would need to immediatly cover the costs of the stand plus whatever the market value of rest of the club is. The investment potential doesnt get any better until that stand has paid for itself and we are back in positive equity which will take at least 20 years if they keep the hotel as a going concern IMO

 

I just cant see the viability of investing ?51 million in a club that turns over ?12 million pa and a hotel that couldnt make more than ?3 million a year in clear profit even operating at its maximum capacity.

 

As I said, I thoroughly believe he's preparing to sell in the short to medium term and building that stand makes that impossible for him in the short to medium term, so it wont be done.

 

Correct but 51million is not being invested in Hearts, the stand alone was estimated approx 8-10million. Now that could be covered by a naming rights of the stand which i believe is or was being looked into. A ten year or even 15 year naming rights for 10million thats less than a milion per year for major advertisement and rights for whoever took this offer up.

 

The other outlets hotel and apartments we can argue about who would benefit from those either Hearts or UBIG but obviously in selling the apartments and leasing the hotel the remainder of the money paid to build would have to be initially paid back to UBIG to cover the initial outlay.

[Only a Game]

Correct but 51million is not being invested in Hearts, the stand alone was estimated approx 8-10million. Now that could be covered by a naming rights of the stand which i believe is or was being looked into. A ten year or even 15 year naming rights for 10million thats less than a milion per year for major advertisement and rights for whoever took this offer up.

 

The other outlets hotel and apartments we can argue about who would benefit from those either Hearts or UBIG but obviously in selling the apartments and leasing the hotel the remainder of the money paid to build would have to be initially paid back to UBIG to cover the initial outlay.

 

I have no difficulty if thats the case and the two projects are distinctly separated so that the survival or the very future of Hearts FC does not depend on the success or otherwise of the adjoining hotel and has no dependant link so that, if the hotel doesnt work (and its a huge gamble IMO) it doesnt mean that Hearts go t|ts up as a result.

 

Imagine after all the times we've been close to the brink over the years if we finally go down beause of the failure of a totally unrelated business

[The Don]

I have no difficulty if thats the case and the two projects are distinctly separated so that the survival or the very future of Hearts FC does not depend on the success or otherwise of the adjoining hotel and has no dependant link so that, if the hotel doesnt work (and its a huge gamble IMO) it doesnt mean that Hearts go t|ts up as a result.

 

Imagine after all the times we've been close to the brink over the years if we finally go down beause of the failure of a totally unrelated business

 

I think thats how it was being sold to us, that the projects would be seperate albeit the building work was combined. The idea on paper is a very good idea in that we could get a new stand at not really a cost to the club, and then proftis from the other outlets initially being paid back to UBIG untill all debt cleared. Was it not estimated everything together would add an extra 6-7 million net profit a year? There are lots a lots of different scenarios which we could see happen, and until it does happen IF it happens we wont really know.