Underachieving massively

[Johanes de Silentio]

An excercise in logic:

 

A successful club needs the best players.

 

Good players cost money.

 

We have the third biggest playing budget in the country.

 

If this playing budget was spent on the best players we could afford, we would be at third in the league, in the semi-finals of both cup competitions , and in Europe.

 

We're not!

 

We were eight in the league, and are generally oot the cups early doors.

 

The logical conclusion from these premises, is that the playing budget is not being used to bring in players who are good enough to justify the expense, and the person making the decisions on the playing squad is not spending the budget wisely.

 

The person making most of the decisions on the playing squad would appear to be Vladimir Romanov.

 

Thus begging the following question:

 

Is it really worth having Vladimir Romanov and his money if he is wasting it on players who are not good enough to achieve what the playing budget should?

 

Al.

 

P.S. I hope no one is checking my ****-poor logic!

[scott_jambo]

An excercise in logic:

 

A successful club needs the best players.

 

Good players cost money.

 

We have the third biggest playing budget in the country.

 

If this playing budget was spent on the best players we could afford, we would be at third in the league, in the semi-finals of both cup competitions , and in Europe.

 

We're not!

 

We were eight in the league, and are generally oot the cups early doors.

 

The logical conclusion from these premises, is that the playing budget is not being used to bring in players who are good enough to justify the expense, and the person making the decisions on the playing squad is not spending the budget wisely.

 

The person making most of the decisions on the playing squad would appear to be Vladimir Romanov.

 

Thus begging the following question:

 

Is it really worth having Vladimir Romanov and his money if he is wasting it on players who are not good enough to achieve what the playing budget should?

 

Al.

 

P.S. I hope no one is checking my ****-poor logic!

 

Give Csaba time to build a team son. He only had less than a month before the transfer deadline in the summer.

 

Hopefully we will ship out the p*sh and replace them with quality and bring suksiss

[Tott]

Is it really worth having Vladimir Romanov and his money if he is wasting it on players who are not good enough to achieve what the playing budget should?

 

 

Worth?

At the moment no alternative

 

Player budgets are ******* by the english leagues,vastly overpaid average players flooding the market.

 

Our player budget was far too high,only thing vlad is actually doing right is bringing it down.

[nanananananana-angus]

Hearts as a club, some would say have been under achieving for the greater part of its' history.I would rather say that the OF have been over achieving at the expense of the rest of Scottish football through institutionalised bias by the GFA.

[Johanes de Silentio]

Fair enough - but surely you agree that we have wasted vast amounts of cash on ordinary players?

 

I like Csaba, but the squad he has to work with just isn't as good as it should be, given the budget.

 

Yes, the budget is being slashed, but it will still be 3rd biggest in Scotland - why aren't we 3rd?

[ArmiyaRomanova]

An excercise in logic:

 

A successful club needs the best players.

 

 

Hull City?

[Charlie-Brown]

Hull City?

 

Tottenham Hotspur?

[Buffalo Bill]

It goes without saying that we're spending too much to achieve very little.

 

I'd feel a lot more comfortable if the club issued a staement like "we will be building the new stand but over the next three years we need to cut back in wages but hang in there, we'll do our best and there IS a plan".

 

If they said that, then we could accept who and what we are.

 

But there is no logic in what we are.

 

Over the last two years we've had inflated wages, terrible results, too many players, possibly still a split dressing room, guys who haven't given a toss, and new signings that have contributed nothing.

 

Off the park, we are hated or laughed at by the media, the GFA and the general public (not that I'm too bothered by that). New fans were won, and then lost again. And we appear to be teetering towards financial meltdown, depending on who you believe.

 

At least now however, we have a manager who is trying his best, and the team (in the last two games) have battled hard.

 

We still lack direction form the top. We have good people at the club like Campbell Ogilvie and David Southern, but we hear nothing in terms of finance, leadership and vision.

 

The sad thing is, it is all so simple to change.

 

But our glorious leader is too stubborn for that.

 

The frustration, worry and anger of thousands of loyal suppoters means nothing.

 

The team might be 'together' but the Hearts family isn't.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

[jamcow1]

most of the imports fae kaunus arnt on massive mages(like kello and the polish guy recently) all the big earners from the earlly point of vlads rein are going out the door.

 

i was a firm believer that with a proper manager these players would be good enough to challenge for 3rd

 

now we have proper manager( i think) but obviousy some of the playing staff are just not very good....2-3 players in in january and get rid of some of the worst players we have the now and i think we should be sitting pretty good.

[Heart of the Matter]

During the past 35 years, I think Hearts have underachieved in the sense that we have won only two pieces of silverware. That is a poor return for a club that has a huge support, and is generally considered to be the third team in Scotland.

 

For me, watching Hearts during these decades, the main factor in that lack of success was that they we never seemed to be able to hold onto any of our quality players. With a few notable exceptions such as Gary MacKay, Craig Levein and Robbo, it just seemed to be inevitable that star players departed sooner or later. Players such as Bannon, Naysmith, Mclaren, Cameron, McCann, Weir, Fuller, Gordon, Johnston, Niemi, Hartley, Skacel, Bednar, and quite a few others were sold or left Tynecastle, in most (but not all) cases to reduce the Club's level of debt.

 

During that period, Dundee United and Aberdeen teams achieved far greater success. It wasn't just about having exceptional managers, they were able to build squads full of quality players and retain them for many seasons. I don't remember too many players from these league winning teams being sold at the peak of their powers.

 

Hearts just never seemed to be able to build and retain a squad that matched their potential and status. In contrast to Aberdeen of Dundee United, our lack of leadership or vision, weak management, poor stewardship, high levels of debt to be serviced, all got in the way.

 

The closest we came to a league title was in '86, seven minutes away as history shows, and that was because we had a team with quality players and experience, an excellent manager who knew how to get the best out of these players - footballers who knew what it meant to wear maroon and white. Although TBF, the old firm were weak that season.

 

There was a sense, albeit short lived, that Burley's team of 2005 might have achieved something special, but that too is history now.

 

With respect to the OP, I don't think it's fair to say that Hearts are "underachieving massively". We have a very average squad of players quality-wise who, in some cases, are paid way above their relative levels of ability.

 

Hand on heart, I can't say I'd be disappointed to lose any one of our current first team to another club in the way I was when any of the aforementioned players left during the last 35 years. From what is reported, the morale of our team seems to reach rock bottom on a regular basis, requiring regular 'bonding' or 'clear' the air' sessions to repair the ongoing damage.

 

There is a lack of stability, zero accountability, poor communication and abject leadership. We are suddenly a selling club again. Staff are often treated badly these days, whether it be players such as Steve Banks, or the recent shameful case of the den mums.

 

I believe personally that we have a first team coach who exudes 'passion' to the public, but who took the job on the private understanding that he would follow Romanov's instructions to the letter. It is still VR who calls all the shots IMO - nothing has changed in that respect and nothing will until the day that Romanov himself departs. Laslo Csaba's role seems to be degenerating into some kind of animated pantomime queen in the technical area.

 

So no - Hearts are not underachieving massively. Given the players and coaching staff at our disposal and all that is going on in the background, fifth or sixth place would be about right.

[Johanes de Silentio]

 

With respect to the OP, I don't think it's fair to say that Hearts are "underachieving massively". We have a very average squad of players quality-wise who, in some cases, are paid way above their relative levels of ability.

 

So no - Hearts are not underachieving massively. Given the players and coaching staff at our disposal and all that is going on in the background, fifth or sixth place would be about right.

 

Sorry, mate - but this is exactly my point: with the 3rd biggest playing budget in the country, we should have the 3rd best squad - but we don't!

 

Why don't we? Because the budget is being wasted on ordinary players.

 

Whether it's guys like Kingston or Beslija earning fortunes or guys like Mrowiec or Kello earning peanuts, we're not getting our (or Vlad's) money's worth.

 

What is required to remedy this situation is a massive change in our signing policy - i.e. to start using the 3rd biggest playing budget in the country to sign quality players. It's not brain surgery, Vlad!

[Groatallar]

The main problem with Hearts is that despite having some quality we always throw in some junk.

 

It doesn't matter how well we play the lack of quality in both defence and up front is more suited to a struggling first divison team rather than a team that is meant to be competing for honours.

 

Clearly evidenced again yesterday - Zaliukas is a great athelete and plays well for 80 mins or so but always does something stupid every game. Against Hibs he let Nish go which gave them their goal and then almost sold them the winner.

Our attack is just garbage - Nade is getting better but still doesn't score, Tulberg always injured, Glen looks promising but is still a young laddie, Jamie Mole (FFS!).

 

Almost forgot about Audrey, another one who is just rubbish and should be shown the door.

 

If we sign a few decent players in Jan we may get there

[scots civil war]

its not just about expenditure on his generally poor perception of what a good player is

 

 

its the fact that he refuses to deal with british players/agents

 

as pointed many times,there are some good spl players about who would do a job for hearts,and stick it in the onion bag

 

romanov the maverick that he is,looks the other way........

 

if he still wants us to work,then why doesnt he ****ing sort it out and eat humble bollocks

[lewis2006]

It goes without saying that we're spending too much to achieve very little.

 

I'd feel a lot more comfortable if the club issued a staement like "we will be building the new stand but over the next three years we need to cut back in wages but hang in there, we'll do our best and there IS a plan".

 

If they said that, then we could accept who and what we are.

 

But there is no logic in what we are.

 

Over the last two years we've had inflated wages, terrible results, too many players, possibly still a split dressing room, guys who haven't given a toss, and new signings that have contributed nothing.

 

Off the park, we are hated or laughed at by the media, the GFA and the general public (not that I'm too bothered by that). New fans were won, and then lost again. And we appear to be teetering towards financial meltdown, depending on who you believe.

 

At least now however, we have a manager who is trying his best, and the team (in the last two games) have battled hard.

 

We still lack direction form the top. We have good people at the club like Campbell Ogilvie and David Southern, but we hear nothing in terms of finance, leadership and vision.

 

The sad thing is, it is all so simple to change.

 

But our glorious leader is too stubborn for that.

 

The frustration, worry and anger of thousands of loyal suppoters means nothing.

 

The team might be 'together' but the Hearts family isn't.

 

 

Buffalo Bill

 

.

 

Top post Andy...every word SPOT ON!!!!!

[Charlie-Brown]

During the past 35 years, I think Hearts have underachieved in the sense that we have won only two pieces of silverware. That is a poor return for a club that has a huge support, and is generally considered to be the third team in Scotland.

 

For me, watching Hearts during these decades, the main factor in that lack of success was that they we never seemed to be able to hold onto any of our quality players. With a few notable exceptions such as Gary MacKay, Craig Levein and Robbo, it just seemed to be inevitable that star players departed sooner or later. Players such as Bannon, Naysmith, Mclaren, Cameron, McCann, Weir, Fuller, Gordon, Johnston, Niemi, Hartley, Skacel, Bednar, and quite a few others were sold or left Tynecastle, in most (but not all) cases to reduce the Club's level of debt.

 

During that period, Dundee United and Aberdeen teams achieved far greater success. It wasn't just about having exceptional managers, they were able to build squads full of quality players and retain them for many seasons. I don't remember too many players from these league winning teams being sold at the peak of their powers.

 

Hearts just never seemed to be able to build and retain a squad that matched their potential and status. In contrast to Aberdeen of Dundee United, our lack of leadership or vision, weak management, poor stewardship, high levels of debt to be serviced, all got in the way.

 

The closest we came to a league title was in '86, seven minutes away as history shows, and that was because we had a team with quality players and experience, an excellent manager who knew how to get the best out of these players - footballers who knew what it meant to wear maroon and white. Although TBF, the old firm were weak that season.

 

There was a sense, albeit short lived, that Burley's team of 2005 might have achieved something special, but that too is history now.

 

With respect to the OP, I don't think it's fair to say that Hearts are "underachieving massively". We have a very average squad of players quality-wise who, in some cases, are paid way above their relative levels of ability.

 

Hand on heart, I can't say I'd be disappointed to lose any one of our current first team to another club in the way I was when any of the aforementioned players left during the last 35 years. From what is reported, the morale of our team seems to reach rock bottom on a regular basis, requiring regular 'bonding' or 'clear' the air' sessions to repair the ongoing damage.

 

There is a lack of stability, zero accountability, poor communication and abject leadership. We are suddenly a selling club again. Staff are often treated badly these days, whether it be players such as Steve Banks, or the recent shameful case of the den mums.

 

I believe personally that we have a first team coach who exudes 'passion' to the public, but who took the job on the private understanding that he would follow Romanov's instructions to the letter. It is still VR who calls all the shots IMO - nothing has changed in that respect and nothing will until the day that Romanov himself departs. Laslo Csaba's role seems to be degenerating into some kind of animated pantomime queen in the technical area.

 

So no - Hearts are not underachieving massively. Given the players and coaching staff at our disposal and all that is going on in the background, fifth or sixth place would be about right.

 

All of the players you mention left to play at a higher level and a step up in their careers.....Hearts are medium-big club in a small country and simply cannot compete on a level playing field with the economic superiority of the top 30-35 english clubs and the Old Firm in Scotland....just as the Old Firm have discovered they cannot compete on equal terms with Premiership and even some top championship clubs when it comes to signing or retaining players and also when they play the giant clubs from europes major countries in the champions league. The French & Dutch clubs came to this realisation in the 70's / 80's and since then all their top players have played most of their careers abroad and apart from brief flashes of brilliance their clubs have been over-shadowed bythe Spanish, Italians, English & German clubs.

 

Aberdeen and Dundee Utd also sold their top players in the Ferguson & McLean era with the likes of Archibald, Ray Stewart, Strachan, McGhee, Eric Black, Neale Cooper & Jim Leighton all made big money moves to English clubs or abroad - what Fergie & McLean did manage though was to buy canny lower cost replacements usually without reducing quality and avoided competing with the Old Firm for signing targets thus those clubs ran at a profit which helped them to retain players & fund improvements - there was also much less movement of players as well in that era as the clubs had much greater contractual hold over players and the fees they could demand.

[Rust Cohle]

Our player budget was far too high,only thing vlad is actually doing right is bringing it down.

 

Levein done an amazing job of bringing the wage bill down from J.J's brief period of transfer insanity (fitzroy simpson, petric et al) and gave us consecutive third place finishes and some memorable european jaunts.

 

Romanov then came in and knackered the wage structure at the club, thus we have come full circle with him trying to cut it down again.

 

Seeing as how he's not doing it anywhere near as successful as Levein, I don't think he should be getting praise for this.

[Charlie-Brown]

Levein done an amazing job of bringing the wage bill down from J.J's brief period of transfer insanity (fitzroy simpson, petric et al) and gave us consecutive third place finishes and some memorable european jaunts.

 

Romanov then came in and knackered the wage structure at the club, thus we have come full circle with him trying to cut it down again.

 

Seeing as how he's not doing it anywhere near as successful as Levein, I don't think he should be getting praise for this.

 

Levein did do very well on less money than Jefferies however Hearts did not cut back anywhere nearly enough in that period as we still continued to lose big money each season cos player costs were still far too high meanwhile Aberdeen, Hibs, Dundee Utd, Dundee & Motherwell etc were all forced to make much deeper cuts in their wage bill to improve their finances and most of these clubs had to endure bottom six league placings as a result whilst Hearts continued to significantly overspend. Levein's supposed pain of cost-cutting was massivley overstated compared to what our SPL peers did at the same time.

[wibble]

An excercise in logic:

 

A successful club needs the best players.

 

Good players cost money.

 

We have the third biggest playing budget in the country.

 

If this playing budget was spent on the best players we could afford, we would be at third in the league, in the semi-finals of both cup competitions , and in Europe.

 

We're not!

 

We were eight in the league, and are generally oot the cups early doors.

 

The logical conclusion from these premises, is that the playing budget is not being used to bring in players who are good enough to justify the expense, and the person making the decisions on the playing squad is not spending the budget wisely.

 

The person making most of the decisions on the playing squad would appear to be Vladimir Romanov.

 

Thus begging the following question:

 

Is it really worth having Vladimir Romanov and his money if he is wasting it on players who are not good enough to achieve what the playing budget should?

 

Al.

 

P.S. I hope no one is checking my ****-poor logic!

 

 

 

Posters like you should remember that the Jambos are Barry.

[Guest Fabuloso]

All of the players you mention left to play at a higher level and a step up in their careers.....Hearts are medium-big club in a small country and simply cannot compete on a level playing field with the economic superiority of the top 30-35 english clubs and the Old Firm in Scotland....just as the Old Firm have discovered they cannot compete on equal terms with Premiership and even some top championship clubs when it comes to signing or retaining players and also when they play the giant clubs from europes major countries in the champions league. The French & Dutch clubs came to this realisation in the 70's / 80's and since then all their top players have played most of their careers abroad and apart from brief flashes of brilliance their clubs have been over-shadowed bythe Spanish, Italians, English & German clubs.

 

Aberdeen and Dundee Utd also sold their top players in the Ferguson & McLean era with the likes of Archibald, Ray Stewart, Strachan, McGhee, Eric Black, Neale Cooper & Jim Leighton all made big money moves to English clubs or abroad - what Fergie & McLean did manage though was to buy canny lower cost replacements usually without reducing quality and avoided competing with the Old Firm for signing targets thus those clubs ran at a profit which helped them to retain players & fund improvements - there was also much less movement of players as well in that era as the clubs had much greater contractual hold over players and the fees they could demand.

 

Two completely different time-periods. Comparison is almost meaningless I'm afraid.

[Charlie-Brown]

Two completely different time-periods. Comparison is almost meaningless I'm afraid.

 

I agree although to be fair Heart of the Matter did start with Bannon who left in a big money move to Chelsea which was in the Fergie / McLean era indeed when Dundee Utd sold Ray Stewart for ?400K which was a record transfer fee for an SPL player at the time he re-invested half that money on bringing Bannon back from Chelsea and signing top scorer Wullie Pettigrew from Motherwell and banked the rest which enabled them to offer better deals to Hegarty, Narey, Sturrock, Holt etc. Interestingly both Bannon & Willie Pettigrew both subsequently came (back) to play at Tynie.

[Guest Fabuloso]

I agree although to be fair Heart of the Matter did start with Bannon who left in a big money move to Chelsea which was in the Fergie / McLean era indeed when Dundee Utd sold Ray Stewart for ?400K which was a record transfer fee for an SPL player at the time he re-invested half that money on bringing Bannon back from Chelsea and signing top scorer Wullie Pettigrew from Motherwell and banked the rest which enabled them to offer better deals to Hegarty, Narey, Sturrock, Holt etc. Interestingly both Bannon & Willie Pettigrew both subsequently came (back) to play at Tynie.

 

Yup - good stuff. I wonder what VR would have thought of Eamonn...

 

A complete traitor probably!

[Charlie-Brown]

Yup - good stuff. I wonder what VR would have thought of Eamonn...

 

A complete traitor probably!

 

Two completely different time-periods. Comparison is almost meaningless I'm afraid.

[Del1812]

Why do people, Hearts fans and otherwise, constantly ask if we need/should keep Romanov as if we have any choice in the matter?

[Guest Fabuloso]

Two completely different time-periods. Comparison is almost meaningless I'm afraid.

 

Good son.

[Guest Fabuloso]

Why do people, Hearts fans and otherwise, constantly ask if we need/should keep Romanov as if we have any choice in the matter?

 

You have a choice to sit idle and watch or stand up for what you believe in. Just like 1939.

 

You'd be the guy trying to stop the hooligans from knocking down the Berlin Wall because "there's nothing we can do about it".

[Charlie-Brown]

Why do people, Hearts fans and otherwise, constantly ask if we need/should keep Romanov as if we have any choice in the matter?

 

I know it's a nonsense - I never had any choice on Parker, Mercer, Robinson & Deans, Romanov's ultimate control of the club although you could also say that in real terms at certain periods it has been the bean counters at Bank of Scotland and then UKIO Bankas who have held ultimate control in the periods of financial distress. Basically as a Hearts fan you get what you've been given and it's always been that way....and this is true for most clubs.

 

Fans can choose to attend or not attend and also protest and not buy merchandise etc but that is the limit of their power unless they united to raise a big amount of money to gain control of the club however the Hearts support has always shown apathy towards this - Mercer got control for about ?250K, Pieman & Deans for a couple of million and it would only have taken ?2.5M to dislodge Robinson but it never happened......has there been any increase in militancy, solidarity amongst the support or improving economic circumstances since then?

[Guest Fabuloso]

I know it's a nonsense - I never had any choice on Parker, Mercer, Robinson & Deans, Romanov's ultimate control of the club although you could also say that in real terms at certain periods it has been the bean counters at Bank of Scotland and then UKIO Bankas who have held ultimate control in the periods of financial distress. Basically as a Hearts fan you get what you've been given and it's always been that way....and this is true for most clubs.

 

Fans can choose to attend or not attend and also protest and not buy merchandise etc but that is the limit of their power unless they united to raise a big amount of money to gain control of the club however the Hearts support has always shown apathy towards this - Mercer got control for about ?250K, Pieman & Deans for a couple of million and it would only have taken ?2.5M to dislodge Robinson but it never happened......has there been any increase in militancy, solidarity amongst the support or improving economic circumstances since then?

 

Much of what you say is true unfortunately however if people feel so strongly about VR then they should be active or vocal in some way shape or form. Personally I find this frustrating. I have voted with my feet however this is dampened by fans who will always attend (that's not a criticism). Ideally those fans attending should at least bring the current issues to the board and the media's attention which would at least be something. Chanting, banners, whatever it takes to make a sustained message. The worst thing any group of supporters can do is just accept things as they are. Hearts have such a great history - look at the contribution made by our team in WWI for example. I'd hate to think what they'd make of the current, for want of a better word, circus. Surely they'd want the fans to stand up for what they believe in? Maybe it's just me - maybe there is a lack of real desire to try and change things. Same old posts...

[Hearts Heritage]

During the past 35 years, I think Hearts have underachieved in the sense that we have won only two pieces of silverware. ....

 

During that period, Dundee United and Aberdeen teams achieved far greater success. It wasn't just about having exceptional managers, they were able to build squads full of quality players and retain them for many seasons. I don't remember too many players from these league winning teams being sold at the peak of their powers.

 

.....

 

A & DU had success for 6 to 7 years at the start of the 1980s. Whilst they did have 2 very good managers part of the success was the poverty of the OF.

 

Since 1986 the OF have dominated Scottish Football in a manner without historical comparison. Their crowds are now bigger that ever the income gap gets wider and wider every season.

[Heart of the Matter]

A & DU had success for 6 to 7 years at the start of the 1980s. Whilst they did have 2 very good managers part of the success was the poverty of the OF.

 

Since 1986 the OF have dominated Scottish Football in a manner without historical comparison. Their crowds are now bigger that ever the income gap gets wider and wider every season.

 

Fair point.

 

The main thing I was trying to get at was, notwithstanding the relative poorness of the OF at that time, both Aberdeen and Dundee Utd achieved what Hearts never did. For a while these two teams dominated Scottish football and did really well in Europe. They had players of the stature of Sturrock, Narey, Heggarty, Gough, Bannon, Dodds, Leighton, Miller, McGhee, Weir, Strachan, Mcleish, Bell and others who were mainstays of the international team, as well as being more talented than anything we had over these years (with the notable exceptions of John Robertson and Craig Levein).

 

Why could this not have been achieved at Tynecastle? Hearts had a bigger fan base, more drawing power commercially and a stronger heritage in Scottish football. We just always seemed to underachieve relative to other clubs. We won more games than we lost during these decades but apart from 1986, we never looked like a real force.

 

Was it the manager? If we'd had a Ferguson or a McLean would that have made the crucial difference? Was our scouting and coaching second rate for decades? Did the Board lack the vision and leadership needed to create the right conditions for success? Did Hearts consistently recruit the wrong type of players? Were we always too saddled with debt to rise above the mediocrity that our journeymen footballers produced.

 

I saw a lot of both Aberdeen and United over these years and believe me, they were both top quality sides that would give the Old Firm a run for their money today. How they achieved what they did with limited resources is another story, and maybe it does belong to another era, but whilst Hearts were moving their better players on season after season, these two clubs enjoyed a period of stability that enabled them to retain the nucleus of their first team squads.

 

For a short period in 2005, we had a glimpse of what might have been. In players like Gordon, Fysass, Pressley, Webster, Skacel, Brellier, Bednar, Jankauskis, Hartley we had the core of a team that might have matched these New Firm sides of the '80s, plus a very good manager. Had we been able to add two or three players of similar quality and kept GB, I truly believe we would have won the SPL that season. We couldn't and didn't as the history books show, but I felt that Hearts were on the verge of something really amazing that season, carried along by the confidence and belief that winning brings (just as it was in season 1985-86). The team of '98 was very strong too but that was basically broken up soon after.

 

Sadly, we don't have the players in the current squad who stand comparison with the aforementioned individuals. We have a first team coach that I feel won't cut it because his hands are tied. We have an owner who, for reasons only he will understand, feels the need to dismantle, destabilize and destroy much of what is good at Tynecastle, whilst treating players and supporters with complete distain.

[Heart of the Matter]

Aberdeen and Dundee Utd also sold their top players in the Ferguson & McLean era with the likes of Archibald, Ray Stewart, Strachan, McGhee, Eric Black, Neale Cooper & Jim Leighton all made big money moves to English clubs or abroad -

 

Didn't most of these guys leave Aberdeen after Ferguson joined MU? I seem to recall Strachan and Leighton going to MU after Fergie left and McGhee joining Celtic after that too. Fair point about Ray Stewart, and of course Richard Gough and Andy Gray before him. I'd forgotten about these guys.

[Charlie-Brown]

Aberdeen & Dundee Utd had a very strong nucleus of home produced players and for a while they both churned out very good players on a regular basis - they also didn't compete with the Old Firm for signing targets so they didn't have to pay too much over the odds and instead raided clubs like Dundee, St Mirren, Morton etc for players as well as bringing home some 'anglo' players on good deals.

 

Ferguson & McLean were of course important but the chairmen Donald & Fox were just as important and managed the clubs in a financially sound way ie at a profit! They did sell players against the wishes of their managers if it was in the best interest of the club and at that time there is no way any Scots club could have refused the kind of money the arabs & dons got for Andy Gray, Ray Stewart, Stevie Archibald or Strachan etc. What they did manage to do though was find cheaper replacements without reducing the overall quality too much and use the money to improve the other players deals....it was a virtuous circle that helped produce success in that era.

[Charlie-Brown]

Didn't most of these guys leave Aberdeen after Ferguson joined MU? I seem to recall Strachan and Leighton going to MU after Fergie left and McGhee joining Celtic after that too. Fair point about Ray Stewart, and of course Richard Gough and Andy Gray before him. I'd forgotten about these guys.

 

McGhee went to Hamburg and Eric Black to Metz and Strachan to Man Utd in the years BEFORE Fergie left - he signed buys like Billy Stark & Frank McDougall from St Mirren as replacements as well as meaning Hewitt & Joe Miller started get starts & game-time.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Re the 80's comparison. You cannot draw anything like the SPL today to the Premier League of the 1980s, simply because Scotland's southern neighbour top division was far, far weaker financially, although not in a playing sense. This meant that top players would either remain in Scotland or play in the English top flight. The Scottish Premier League would have been the second best, financially, in comparison to the English 1st division.

 

Now you have teams in League 1 (the old Division 3) who are better off than SPL teams. That's added to the erosion of quality from Scotland and an ambition to replace players with "imports". People criticise Romanov, rightly, for not considering buying "home grown" SPL players. In truth, a lot of these players are far more costlier than the "imported" players.

 

Now, as for our spending in relation to the league, it is completely true to say we are under-achieving. However, the problem we have is that we have players promoted above their ability in terms of the contracts they are on. Where would they go that would pay them a better wage? Until the leeches are gone from the squad, progress will be hampered.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

McGhee went to Hamburg and Eric Black to Metz and Strachan to Man Utd in the years BEFORE Fergie left - he signed buys like Billy Stark & Frank McDougall from St Mirren as replacements as well as meaning Hewitt & Joe Miller started get starts & game-time.

 

At the same time, Fergie did break the Scottish transfer record when he signed Peter Weir from St Mirren. A lot of people forget how broke the gruesomes were at that point in time. Rangers were outbid by Watford for the services of John McClelland!

[Charlie-Brown]

At the same time, Fergie did break the Scottish transfer record when he signed Peter Weir from St Mirren. A lot of people forget how broke the gruesomes were at that point in time. Rangers were outbid by Watford for the services of John McClelland!

 

I'm sure the transfer was valued at a Scottish record at the time although I don't think it was in terms of actual cash changing hands - Aberdeen gave money plus winger Ian Scanlon (who was one of their better players) in exchange for the blossoming Peter Weir...in short I think it was the part-valuation placed on Scanlon that allowed Aberdeen to claim they'd paid a record transfer fee.

 

Rangers & Celtic were relatively broke compared to now however they still paid by far the best wages & highest transfer fees and still took the better players from their rivals - examples being Davie Cooper from Clydebank, Iain Redford from Dundee, Craig Paterson from Hibs, Cammy Fraser from Dundee, Dougie Bell from Aberdeen whilst Celtic signed a steady stream of 'Celtic-minded' players....it was also really only the Old Firm that could afford to sign players from English First Division (ie Premiership) clubs and got McLelland, McCoist & McGarvey and foreign based players Robert Prytz, Jim Bett & Aussie striker Dave Mitchell etc.

 

Ferguson left soon afer Rangers started to exploit their economic superiority when they signed half the English national team & bunch of top english based players and Celtic were eventually forced to follow suit.

[Heart of the Matter]

Ferguson & McLean were of course important but the chairmen Donald & Fox were just as important and managed the clubs in a financially sound way ie at a profit! They did sell players against the wishes of their managers if it was in the best interest of the club and at that time there is no way any Scots club could have refused the kind of money the arabs & dons got for Andy Gray, Ray Stewart, Stevie Archibald or Strachan etc. What they did manage to do though was find cheaper replacements without reducing the overall quality too much and use the money to improve the other players deals....it was a virtuous circle that helped produce success in that era.

 

Good analysis NMH. A lot of AFC and DUFC success was probably down to Ferguson and McLean being able to spot a player and see how they could fit into the teams that they were building. If Romanov, by contrast, is the person selecting the players for Hearts, the evidence would suggest that (a) he has no eye for a player ( these acquisitions, at the outset, are not intended to fit into anything being built by way of a team, rather assets for speculation and trade.

[Craig Herbertson]

Heart of the Matter - your right.

[Craig Herbertson]

Or even 'you're right'.

[Guest JamboRobbo]

Good analysis NMH. A lot of AFC and DUFC success was probably down to Ferguson and McLean being able to spot a player and see how they could fit into the teams that they were building. If Romanov, by contrast, is the person selecting the players for Hearts, the evidence would suggest that (a) he has no eye for a player ( these acquisitions, at the outset, are not intended to fit into anything being built by way of a team, rather assets for speculation and trade.

 

spot on IMO.

[bigandy]

Hearts as a club, some would say have been under achieving for the greater part of its' history.I would rather say that the OF have been over achieving at the expense of the rest of Scottish football through institutionalised bias by the GFA.

 

I agree that it would be fair to expect a club of Hearts stature to have won more than 4 league chmpionships over a period of over 100 years and also more than 7 Scottish/4 League Cups. There are many reasons for that, some Hearts self made problems and some outwith our control. Obviously our league winning record would look better if various circumstances had not led to us losing out in 85/86, 64/65, 58/59 and 14/15. Clearly WWI tragically stopped what could have been a highly succesful team in its tracks.

 

Hearts appeared to under achieve quite badly throughout the 30's when despite at various times having real superstars like Walker, Harkness, Massie and Anderson they won nothing. We contributed to our own downfall in the late 50's early 60's by selling our best players and took years to recover. 1986 was sore for many reasons - it was the last season before Rangers moved up a league financially and as such a great opportunity to win things. Even after the Rangers 'revolution' we still had the players to win some cups but the scars of 86 were added to by the 87 and 88 cup semi defeats to put a monkey on the back that the team of that era never got rid of.

 

Present day football is the hardest climate for Hearts to compete with bigger clubs ie the OF because of the amount of money in football. Having said that finishing 8th IS underachieving for a club like Hearts no question.

[wibble]

Can't PM you Uncle Albert cos your mailbox is full, but I didnt report your abusive post, so don't PM me calling me a Grass.

[Hearts Heritage]

 

Hearts appeared to under achieve quite badly throughout the 30's when despite at various times having real superstars like Walker, Harkness, Massie and Anderson they won nothing.

 

 

The side of the 1930s were 'robbed' in 2 Semis of the Cup versus the OF. The sale of Massie (and McCullough) in the mid 1930s deprived the team from going onto win the league. Massies sale like that of Dave McKay 25 years later took away the 'powerhouse' from the team.

 

Also there was definitely things going on behind the scenes as the players threatened to go on strike at one point.

[Johanes de Silentio]

Can't PM you Uncle Albert cos your mailbox is full, but I didnt report your abusive post, so don't PM me calling me a Grass.

 

Move on!

[i8hibsh]

An excercise in logic:

 

A successful club needs the best players.

 

Good players cost money.

 

We have the third biggest playing budget in the country.

 

If this playing budget was spent on the best players we could afford, we would be at third in the league, in the semi-finals of both cup competitions , and in Europe.

 

We're not!

 

We were eight in the league, and are generally oot the cups early doors.

 

The logical conclusion from these premises, is that the playing budget is not being used to bring in players who are good enough to justify the expense, and the person making the decisions on the playing squad is not spending the budget wisely.

 

The person making most of the decisions on the playing squad would appear to be Vladimir Romanov.

 

Thus begging the following question:

 

Is it really worth having Vladimir Romanov and his money if he is wasting it on players who are not good enough to achieve what the playing budget should?

 

Al.

 

P.S. I hope no one is checking my ****-poor logic!

 

There are 3 reasons why we are so poor and 3 reasons alone:

 

1.The player's just simply are not interested if we win,lose or draw

2.Interference from above

3.So many of the current squad are simply not good enough

[Johanes de Silentio]

There are 3 reasons why we are so poor and 3 reasons alone:

 

1.The player's just simply are not interested if we win,lose or draw

2.Interference from above

3.So many of the current squad are simply not good enough

 

Yup - my whole point is this:

 

We've NEVER had this kind of money before. (even after the cuts) - so we should have much better players, and be doing much better.

 

8th place just isnae good enough for a club like Hearts.

 

Apparently my saying this makes me a hobo? I'm not quite sure how that works, but there you go - never mind!

 

Go Csaba!

 

'mon the Hearts!

[i8hibsh]

Yup - my whole point is this:

 

We've NEVER had this kind of money before. (even after the cuts) - so we should have much better players, and be doing much better.

 

8th place just isnae good enough for a club like Hearts.

 

Apparently my saying this makes me a hobo? I'm not quite sure how that works, but there you go - never mind!

 

Go Csaba!

 

'mon the Hearts!

 

You are not allowed to be negative on here.

 

We must all be losers and accept sub standard performances and shocking results every week

 

shabba Rules (apparently)

[Heart of the Matter]

There are 3 reasons why we are so poor and 3 reasons alone:

 

1.The player's just simply are not interested if we win,lose or draw

2.Interference from above

3.So many of the current squad are simply not good enough

 

In the wider picture, reasons 1 and 3 stem from your second reason.

 

2.Interference from above

[wibble]

Move on!

 

It you who's PMing people and calling them names.

[bigandy]

The side of the 1930s were 'robbed' in 2 Semis of the Cup versus the OF. The sale of Massie (and McCullough) in the mid 1930s deprived the team from going onto win the league. Massies sale like that of Dave McKay 25 years later took away the 'powerhouse' from the team.

 

Also there was definitely things going on behind the scenes as the players threatened to go on strike at one point.

 

As usual your historical knowledge is appreciated. My mums uncle who started taking me to Tynecastle did always mention a semi in the 30s when we were robbed now I think about it. He also said that Tommy Walker as the best player he ever saw in the flesh and that included a lot of great players though he did eventually admit after the 86 World Cup that Maradonna was possibly 'slightly better'

[Johanes de Silentio]

It you who's PMing people and calling them names.

 

er...didn't you call me a hobo? Let it go!