Financial Crisis (merged threads)

[Ally Alexander]

You got a calculator?

 

Can you work out just how big a proportion of the Hearts debt is a thousand times the price of a season ticket?

 

Have you ever seen a drop in the ocean?

 

The problem is with cashflow not the total debt. Reckon that 1000 Sts would be in the regions of 1/3rd M. Enough to get over any short falls. but I was actually being a bit frivilous - should have added a smiley.

[portobellojambo1]

Its not an overdraft facility. If HBOS is Ukio's correspondent then they require a minimum deposit to mange their payments. As Ukio is seen as a greater credit risk, they MAY have ask for more funds to be deposited.

 

This was idle speculation and it appears that the problem is just the monies being transferred into the wrong account, which I am sure has happend to many of us.

 

The correspondent bank for UKIO in the UK is Deutsche Bank AG, based in London (according to their own website).

[Fraggle]

Another "non" Weegia news desk reporting payment.

 

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/24092008/1/hearts-end-worry-wage-issue.html

[ToadKiller Dog]

Another "non" Weegia news desk reporting payment.

 

http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/24092008/1/hearts-end-worry-wage-issue.html

 

Its so much better to read a non agenda driven report on events.

[Cigaro]

So we're waiting on the sources who were so quick in reporting NON payment, to report that it has been sorted.

 

There's a shock. Small 5 line piece 8 pages in sound right?

[Fraggle]

Its so much better to read a non agenda driven report on events.

 

Chances are it will be Reuters or one of the other news agencies that are touting the story around. Expect Sky Sports News to run it shortly and some of the more "reputable" news broadcasters to follow suit.

[londonjambo]

Chances are it will be Reuters or one of the other news agencies that are touting the story around. Expect Sky Sports News to run it shortly and some of the more "reputable" news broadcasters to follow suit.

 

The source appears to be the Official Site

 

BBC is now reporting wages paid as well

 

GC

[Rosewood]

In the Evening Hobo as well:

 

http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/sport/Hearts-begin-to-pay-wages.4521502.jp

 

PAYMENT of wages is underway at Tynecastle with Hearts stressing in a statement that a repeat of this week's salary delay is "highly unlikely" in future.

Both players and administative staff at Tynecastle are owed overdue wages but the club have informed them that payment is imminent. Hearts failed to pay players their weekly wages last Friday and then informed non-football staff yesterday that their regular monthly salaries would not be in the bank today.

 

Lithuanian director Sergejus Fedotovas jetted into Edinburgh to alleviate concerns amongst employees and Hearts insist they are now rectifying the problem, which was blamed on a technical hitch.

 

The club said in a statement: "Payment to staff and players has now been processed as planned and a similar situation is highly unlikely to arise again in the future.

 

"The minor error that occurred has not affected the running of the club in any way. All players and staff are training and working at the club as normal."

[Diego10]

good to hear the wages have been paid, especially for those who work in the lower paid jobs. The concerns over the way Hearts handle cashflow remain though and should really be getting addressed as soon as possible. It's unprofessional and gives out entirely the wrong image.

 

Hopefully this is the last time this will happen but everything we do (and all other clubs to be fair) should be subject to scrutiny given the financial climate we are in and how many clubs have got into severe difficulties in the last few years.

[jayjay]

All staff have been paid there wages right up to date. Also there was evidence provided that the problem stemed from an error at the banks end.

Everyone seems to be happy and the staff have been assured that in the highly unlikely event of this ever happening again a back up plan will be in waiting.

 

My only problem is if this is very highly unlikely to happen again why would we need a back up plan.

Anyway my source is happy and seems a lot more confident in the future of his own role and of our famous football club.

 

P.S Stoke City had a bid for larry knocked back just before the transfer window shut. 1.2 mil was the offer received It was knocked back Stoke were told to come back with 2.5. They refused and signed Michael Tonge instead.

 

Lets get back to beefing the Hobos and hope nothing like this happens to us again. For what its worth i still would like Vlad to sell up. Cheers guys Jayjay.

[hearts_crazy]

Can we take this as a cautionery tale, not to believe everything you read in the papers. Not the non payment of wages of course, but the garnish they used to sex up the story. The pesh about players strikes etc, which was, quite simply complete fabrication used to add weight to the Hearts about to fold slant they were angling for.

 

In the meantime can we try to organise a boycott of the Daily ****** and any other so called newspaper that has an anti Hearts agenda. Frankly I really don't understand why any Hearts fan would buy these rags in the first place.

[Drylaw Hearts]

All staff have been paid there wages right up to date. Also there was evidence provided that the problem stemed from an error at the banks end.

Everyone seems to be happy and the staff have been assured that in the highly unlikely event of this ever happening again a back up plan will be in waiting.

 

My only problem is if this is very highly unlikely to happen again why would we need a back up plan.

Anyway my source is happy and seems a lot more confident in the future of his own role and of our famous football club.

 

P.S Stoke City had a bid for larry knocked back just before the transfer window shut. 1.2 mil was the offer received It was knocked back Stoke were told to come back with 2.5. They refused and signed Michael Tonge instead.

 

Lets get back to beefing the Hobos and hope nothing like this happens to us again. For what its worth i still would like Vlad to sell up. Cheers guys Jayjay.

 

Ditto

[monkfish1979]

Frankly I really don't understand why any Hearts fan would buy these rags in the first place.

 

Word. The red tops have nothing to do with news. Almost all their stories are dressed up to appeal to the knuckle dragging mongoloids trying to read them. I'm assuming that the generous inclusion of exposed breasts is aimed at those that struggle with words and whose general illegitimacy of mind precludes them from working so that they can afford to obtain proper porn.

 

Rags. Written by toilers for toilers.

[IMA MAROON]

Ditto

 

That is why will continue to back anyone that says anything against the club.

[Ivan Drago]

Word. The red tops have nothing to do with news. Almost all their stories are dressed up to appeal to the knuckle dragging mongoloids trying to read them. I'm assuming that the generous inclusion of exposed breasts is aimed at those that struggle with words and whose general illegitimacy of mind precludes them from working so that they can afford to obtain proper porn.

 

Rags. Written by toilers for toilers.

 

Its not the gutter press that annoy me, its the people who believe what they write. I remember getting stick off of people because Hearts gave Berti Vogts and Craig Brown the managers job.....

[Boab]

Word. The red tops have nothing to do with news. Almost all their stories are dressed up to appeal to the knuckle dragging mongoloids trying to read them. I'm assuming that the generous inclusion of exposed breasts is aimed at those that struggle with words and whose general illegitimacy of mind precludes them from working so that they can afford to obtain proper porn.

 

Rags. Written by toilers for toilers.

 

Ah,but you don't get headlines like "Horse drinks fifteen pints." in the broadsheets!

 

I have been "out the loop" the past couple of days and wasn't aware of any of this "crisis."

That probably speaks volumes about the power of the media,I suppose.

[Drylaw Hearts]

That is why will continue to back anyone that says anything against the club.

 

Pardon ?

[Seymour M Hersh]

I wonder if the girl who arrived home in tears after being made redundant but being told to say nothing (this info via real radio and her dad allegedly) got her job back?

[Jambof3tornado]

I wonder if the girl who arrived home in tears after being made redundant but being told to say nothing (this info via real radio and her dad allegedly) got her job back?

 

Aye,you could smell the ****e coming from my radio last night!!!

[BlackJAC?]

98.769% of Kbers read The Herald, The Independent, The Times or The Guardian FACT!!!!! Anyone that has to use public transport will know it's a nightmare with all those broadsheets being opened en mass. I personally read The Financial Times fwiw.

[The Real Maroonblood]

That is why will continue to back anyone that says anything against the club.

 

What do you mean?

[Snake Plissken]

So......

 

Players didn't get paid on time.

 

Cue 13 pages of getting rid of Vlad and theorising what supporting a team in the East of Scotland League would be like as we were bound to fold.

 

The next day the players get paid.

 

This place defies belief at times.

[Stanley_]

So......

 

Players didn't get paid on time.

 

Cue 13 pages of getting rid of Vlad and theorising what supporting a team in the East of Scotland League would be like as we were bound to fold.

 

The next day the players get paid.

 

This place defies belief at times.

 

It really is a joke isn't it?

 

This place is far too depressing for me...

[Sheriff Fatman]

My only problem is if this is very highly unlikely to happen again why would we need a back up plan.

 

Probably because, even though it is highly unlikely, they want to make sure the staff would never have to wait for their wages again and more importantly the media wouldn't have an excuse to go on a feeding frenzy again.

[The People's Chimp]

Can we just sticky this thread and then wheel it out when there is another late wages crisis if anything like this ever happens again? It's like a carbon copy of the one we had last week.

[southside1874]

Can we just sticky this thread and then wheel it out when there is another late wages crisis if anything like this ever happens again? It's like a carbon copy of the one we had last week.

 

Flats flats glorious flats

[hearts_crazy]

This has probably been mentioned somewhere in this thread but I canny be arsed trawling through 14 pages. Scott Booth was on the radio last night banging on about this situation. He actually quoted what Vlad had said about continuing to support us financially while looking for a partner/ buyer, and somehow his brain tuned that into 'Vlad is going to up sticks and leave Hearts in the lurch with squillions of quid in debt". Apparently we are all shitting bricks over this. I'm not, i've been waiting for him to sell up and **** off for years now, I can't see this as anything but a positive move.

[The Merse]

I never gave him 3 lots of season ticket money this season, Am i bovvered?

 

More faces than Big Ben.

 

[I.T.K]

This has probably been mentioned somewhere in this thread but I canny be arsed trawling through 14 pages. Scott Booth was on the radio last night banging on about this situation. He actually quoted what Vlad had said about continuing to support us financially while looking for a partner/ buyer, and somehow his brain tuned that into 'Vlad is going to up sticks and leave Hearts in the lurch with squillions of quid in debt". Apparently we are all shitting bricks over this. I'm not, i've been waiting for him to sell up and **** off for years now, I can't see this as anything but a positive move.

 

Again, probably mentioned somewhere in this thread but I canny be arsed trawling through 14 pages. We have had financial issues before Romanov came. We have been cost cutting since for the last 3.5 years which takes time as we have to let contracts run out. Its all good IMO as we were living beyond are means.

 

My only concern is how we will shift the 30 million debt.

[world_3]

Again, probably mentioned somewhere in this thread but I canny be arsed trawling through 14 pages. We have had financial issues before Romanov came. We have been cost cutting since for the last 3.5 years which takes time as we have to let contracts run out. Its all good IMO as we were living beyond are means.

 

My only concern is how we will shift the 30 million debt.

 

If Romanov doesn't write off most if not all of the debt he won't find a buyer. Assuming he really wants to sell and it's not all hot air.

[Francis Albert]

Nice picture of the war memorial in the OP's avatar.

[Charlie-Brown]

If Romanov doesn't write off most if not all of the debt he won't find a buyer. Assuming he really wants to sell and it's not all hot air.

 

I think Romanov & UBIG will probably end up having to write off approx 50% of HMFC debts. I think they will try to recoup the other half by taking ownership of Tynecastle stadium plus also a couple of player sales.

 

My guess is we will probably become tenants at Tynecastle whether we stay long term or move.

[I.T.K]

If Romanov doesn't write off most if not all of the debt he won't find a buyer. Assuming he really wants to sell and it's not all hot air.

 

I think if the UBIG share holders want their money back they would be happy to force a sale of the club's asset's. ie. the players, Tynecastle and not forgetting the fax machine.

 

Bit like the HMRC and Rangers. HMRC just want the ?49 million back in the quickest possible way.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

I think if the UBIG share holders want their money back they would be happy to force a sale of the club's asset's. ie. the players, Tynecastle and not forgetting the fax machine.

 

Bit like the HMRC and Rangers. HMRC just want the ?49 million back in the quickest possible way.

Selling assets in a deep recession = crystallising losses

[I.T.K]

Selling assets in a deep recession = crystallising losses

 

 

Removing a business that is ?30 million in debt and losing ?8 million +/- a year from your portfolio = damage limitation.

[Geoff Kilpatrick]

Removing a business that is ?30 million in debt and losing ?8 million +/- a year from your portfolio = damage limitation.

Quite but some people seem to think there will be an asset strip to pay the debt. The assets aren't there to strip!

[Charlie-Brown]

Removing a business that is ?30 million in debt and losing ?8 million +/- a year from your portfolio = damage limitation.

 

How about a loss minimizing plan for UBIG - drastically cut costs to minimise or stop big annual losses. Write down half the debt but exercise the floating charge and claim a fitba stadium worth approx equal to 50% of debt. Instead of selling the stadium now at depressed market prices - hold the asset, charge 5-10 years rental and earn back in rental income equivalent to 50%-100% of the debt you had to write off plus you still own the stadium which you can sell back or sell off depending on where HMFC plan their long term future?

[scott_jambo]

UBIG BUYING TYNECASTLE AND RENTING IT BACK TO THE CLUB FOR YEARS.

 

SELLING TYNECASTLE TO STEWART MILNE & CALA HOMES BUILDING APARTMENTS ON THE RUBBLE AND PLAYING AT MURRAYFIELD

[I.T.K]

How about a loss minimizing plan for UBIG - drastically cut costs to minimise or stop big annual losses. Write down half the debt but exercise the floating charge and claim a fitba stadium worth approx equal to 50% of debt. Instead of selling the stadium now at depressed market prices - hold the asset, charge 5-10 years rental and earn back in rental income equivalent to 50%-100% of the debt you had to write off plus you still own the stadium which you can sell back or sell off depending on where HMFC plan their long term future?

 

The first part of the plan is needed... i.e. stop losing money, and this seems to be happening. Which is a good thing.

 

The second part I don't understand.

[Hawick Jambo]

The only interesting thing in this thread is that we turned down over a million quid apparently from Stoke for Larry Kingston. Jees we should have bitten their hands off

[Charlie-Brown]

The first part of the plan is needed... i.e. stop losing money, and this seems to be happening. Which is a good thing.

 

The second part I don't understand.

 

Okay lets assume for simple figures Hearts debt is ?30M and Tynecastle has a book value of ?15M

 

UBIG have a legal right to take sell or take ownership of Tynecastle if Hearts can't meet their debt obligations.

 

Instead of writing off all the debt and selling Tynecastle immediately which might only fetch ?10M in current circumstances .........UBIG instead write off ?15M of Hearts debt and take ownership of Tynecastle for exchange of the other ?15M of Hearts debt.

 

Hearts are now debt free but also asset(stadium) free.

 

Hearts sign a medium term lease of 5-10 years to rent Tynecastle whilst they fully explore all future stadium possibilites ie relocating or staying put.

 

At a rental figure of say ?1.5M per year then over 5-10 years UBIG would recoup between ?7.5M-?15M in stadium rent thereby getting back between 50%-100% of the ?15M they'd been forced to write off above.

 

They would still own Tynecastle (worth ?10M-?15M possibly more in future) which they could then sell or lease-back to HMFC if we decide staying put is best or else give Hearts notice to quit and sell it on the open market if Hearts no longer want to stay or property values dramatically increase in the next 5-10 years.

 

It takes longer of course but this way sees them get much more of their money back than any immediate fire-sale of HMFC assets would.

[I.T.K]

Okay lets assume for simple figures Hearts debt is ?30M and Tynecastle has a book value of ?15M

 

UBIG have a legal right to take sell or take ownership of Tynecastle if Hearts can't meet their debt obligations.

 

Instead of writing off all the debt and selling Tynecastle immediately which might only fetch ?10M in current circumstances .........UBIG instead write off ?15M of Hearts debt and take ownership of Tynecastle for exchange of the other ?15M of Hearts debt.

 

Hearts are now debt free but also asset(stadium) free.

 

Hearts sign a medium term lease of 5-10 years to rent Tynecastle whilst they fully explore all future stadium possibilites ie relocating or staying put.

 

At a rental figure of say ?1.5M per year then over 5-10 years UBIG would recoup between ?7.5M-?15M in stadium rent thereby getting back between 50%-100% of the ?15M they'd been forced to write off above.

 

They would still own Tynecastle (worth ?10M-?15M possibly more in future) which they could then sell or lease-back to HMFC if we decide staying put is best or else give Hearts notice to quit and sell it on the open market if Hearts no longer want to stay or property values dramatically increase in the next 5-10 years.

 

It takes longer of course but this way sees them get much more of their money back than any immediate fire-sale of HMFC assets would.

 

I see, where you are going, but not sure it would work.

 

As I see it UBIG own Hearts so they already own the debt and Tynecastle.

 

What this does is add 1.5 million of rent to Hearts expenses each year, which would cripple the club and would be a risk for UBIG. UBIG would only be doing this action under expectation that Hearts could service the rent agreement for the next 10 years. As UBIG own Hearts the rent agreement is also their rent agreement.

 

The only way this would work if UBIG would spin off Hearts for free in a deal that would commit the new owners to pay the 1.5 million to rent Tynecastle for 10 years. But that would also be a risk for anyone willing to buy as they would be buying Hearts for 15 million without a stadium.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Charlie-Brown]

I see, where you are going, but not sure it would work.

 

As I see it UBIG own Hearts so they already own the debt and Tynecastle.

 

What this does is add 1.5 million of rent to Hearts expenses each year, which would cripple the club and would be a risk for UBIG. UBIG would only be doing this action under expectation that Hearts could service the rent agreement for the next 10 years. As UBIG own Hearts the rent agreement is also their rent agreement.

 

The only way this would work if UBIG would spin off Hearts for free in a deal that would commit the new owners to pay the 1.5 million to rent Tynecastle for 10 years. But that would also be a risk for anyone willing to buy as they would be buying Hearts for 15 million without a stadium.

 

If you don't think Hearts can manage a ?1.5M rent how on earth will we survive in a new stadium we won't own? ?1.5M rent equals the first three thousand ST sold for the platinum seats. We would still have another 6 or 7 thousand ST sales which on itself is higher than most of the other SPL clubs. (assumes Hearts fans don't desert in big numbers)

 

?1.5M per year to pay rental on Tynecastle could be generated by a combination of a sponsorship deal ie Umbro and also retaining the naming rights for the stadium and selling that as well ie

 

Tesco Bank Tynecastle Stadium etc

 

For what it's worth from www.football-finances.org I managed to get the following income levels for some of our SPL competitors for the most recent seasons available on that site.

 

HMFC ?8.3M

Dundee Utd ?5.8M

Aberdeeen ?8.6M

Hibernian ?7.1M

Killie ?6.9M

Motherwell ?4.4M

Falkirk ?5.4M

St Mirren ?3.5M

 

So even paying ?1.5M in rental would leave us with ?6.8M which is more than most of the others and you also have to factor that Hibs, Aberdeen, Utd, Killie etc will be paying commercial rates of interest on their debt which will reduce their net income.

 

UBIG will not write off the vast majority of our debt AND sell the club including Tynecastle for a low price - it simply won't happen.

 

If we ever have to play at Murrayfield or another new stadium we will be paying rental without ownership or certainly not more than a minority ownership so we better get used to being able to pay a rental or commercial interest rates on debt quite quickly!

[grumpyespana]

If you don't think Hearts can manage a ?1.5M rent how on earth will we survive in a new stadium we won't own? ?1.5M rent equals the first three thousand ST sold for the platinum seats. We would still have another 6 or 7 thousand ST sales which on itself is higher than most of the other SPL clubs. (assumes Hearts fans don't desert in big numbers)

 

?1.5M per year to pay rental on Tynecastle could be generated by a combination of a sponsorship deal ie Umbro and also retaining the naming rights for the stadium and selling that as well ie

 

Tesco Bank Tynecastle Stadium etc

 

For what it's worth from www.football-finances.org I managed to get the following income levels for some of our SPL competitors for the most recent seasons available on that site.

 

HMFC ?8.3M

Dundee Utd ?5.8M

Aberdeeen ?8.6M

Hibernian ?7.1M

Killie ?6.9M

Motherwell ?4.4M

Falkirk ?5.4M

St Mirren ?3.5M

 

So even paying ?1.5M in rental would leave us with ?6.8M which is more than most of the others and you also have to factor that Hibs, Aberdeen, Utd, Killie etc will be paying commercial rates of interest on their debt which will reduce their net income.

 

UBIG will not write off the vast majority of our debt AND sell the club including Tynecastle for a low price - it simply won't happen.

 

If we ever have to play at Murrayfield or another new stadium we will be paying rental without ownership or certainly not more than a minority ownership so we better get used to being able to pay a rental or commercial interest rates on debt quite quickly!

 

Looks good on paper but are you forgetting that our old stand is falling down it will have to be replaced at great cost.

 

Grumpy.

[Rick Grimes]

If you don't think Hearts can manage a ?1.5M rent how on earth will we survive in a new stadium we won't own? ?1.5M rent equals the first three thousand ST sold for the platinum seats. We would still have another 6 or 7 thousand ST sales which on itself is higher than most of the other SPL clubs. (assumes Hearts fans don't desert in big numbers)

 

 

under the stadium rental scenario would Hearts not stand to lose a fair chink of their hospitality & function room rental directly to UBIG? if so this would further curtail our income - we'd need to fund the squad almost entirely off those remaining ST sales.

[Eldar Hadzimehmedovic]

Love reading Charlie's stuff on threads like this.

 

One question though, and excuse me for maybe being a bit thick; is there anything, anywhere, in law or even a precedent, of a company's liability for its debt being treated differently if it was the creditor themselves that were responsible for a large chunk of that debt?

[Marvin]

Can we take this as a cautionery tale, not to believe everything you read in the papers. Not the non payment of wages of course, but the garnish they used to sex up the story. The pesh about players strikes etc, which was, quite simply complete fabrication used to add weight to the Hearts about to fold slant they were angling for.

 

In the meantime can we try to organise a boycott of the Daily ****** and any other so called newspaper that has an anti Hearts agenda. Frankly I really don't understand why any Hearts fan would buy these rags in the first place.

 

I totally agree. Not bought the ****** or the other rag in over 15 years. For a half decent story on Hearts have a read of the Times. The Times being an English based newspaper are much kinder to us and no smelly style journalism