Hibs Financials

[SMcD]

Why would the training centre be mentioned? Hibs don't own that.

Even if the stand is built, what price will you pay? Compromises (excuses) are made left, right and centre on your wage structure and your transfer policy as it is.

 

Interesting read....

 

http://www.eufootball.biz/Finance/2008085-Lindsay-Hibernian-player-wage.html

 

Yes they do. 100% bought and paid for and included in the accounts.

[Calum Anderson]

And made a profit this year as well unless you ignore the fact we sold players.

However if you ignore the fact we sold players do you ignore the fact we spent a load of cash bringing players in ?

 

Maka 200k

O'brien 200k

Nish 120k

Rankin 120k

 

 

Correct. That's why I said 'operating profit'.

 

You're right though, it's been a net profit the last four years.

[Calum Anderson]

Why would the training centre be mentioned? Hibs don't own that.

 

 

 

See that's the thing. If we didn't own it we wouldn't be able to feature it in the accounts.

 

Guess that means we own it

[scotland1978]

What a joke -- without transfer fees you made a loss of over #1 million -- you cannot sustain that unless as you did last season sell players to cover the costs.

So you have a choice sell players or cut costs -- you can't have both.

As for that being a good set of accounts well then do not offer to run my company as you are gambling with one off sales to finance your business -- once Fletcher has gone the generation has died.

 

Someone mentioned Hibs under 19's being the best batch in years -- well if thats the case then Hearts are laughing because ours are far better and this will show in the next 2-3 seasons -- it has already started with the breakthrough of approx half the current first team.

 

PS i am aware of our accounts by the way and the same stands for those

 

What a joke ?

 

Profit for the Financial Year was ?1.2m (2006-07: ?7.4m)

 

We sold some players we brought in some players and we made a profit of 1.2 million.

 

We are not gambling on one off sales. We sold loads of players so we needed to buy some players to replace the players we sold.(lots of these players went on the accounts the year before)

 

We will cut costs we will not have to buy as many players when we don't sell as many players. We will not have to build the training ground again.

 

Our wages to turnover ratio was 56%. This is ok I think.

We can't afford the new stand. No doubt when we sell Fletcher we can.

As I said I am not a huge fan of Petrie but these are very good accounts.

 

The confusion I think is that when we buy players it comes out of our turnover. When we sell players that money is not an income we can rely on so its not added onto the turnover. This may confuse some people.

[bishyhibby15]

What a joke -- without transfer fees you made a loss of over #1 million -- you cannot sustain that unless as you did last season sell players to cover the costs.

So you have a choice sell players or cut costs -- you can't have both.

As for that being a good set of accounts well then do not offer to run my company as you are gambling with one off sales to finance your business -- once Fletcher has gone the generation has died.

 

Someone mentioned Hibs under 19's being the best batch in years -- well if thats the case then Hearts are laughing because ours are far better and this will show in the next 2-3 seasons -- it has already started with the breakthrough of approx half the current first team.

 

PS i am aware of our accounts by the way and the same stands for those

 

The Accounts state it is the Directors intention to restore a break even position in the year ahead and not to have to depend on the sale of players. This is likely to be a combination of maximising turnover and controlling costs

[scotland1978]

No wonder Romanov paid off Charlie Mann when he has you.

 

Can I just add that hibs were finacially in a bad place around 5 years ago. Since then we have sold a car park and loads of players. Petrie has traded his way out the mess built a stadium and a training ground. Hibs are in a superb financial position. The way to tell that is to look at the accounts of Aberdeen/Hearts. I want a good team on the park though and not too sure if we have that but will wait and see. Hearts fans slagging Rankin or Kerr and the likes I can understand slagging our finances is funny but prob not the best route to take.

[redm]

See that's the thing. If we didn't own it we wouldn't be able to feature it in the accounts.

 

Guess that means we own it

 

Who told you that?

 

It can be an asset without you owning it. But if you're absolutely sure that it's not just a long term leasehold and that it's not owned by one of Uncle Tom's investment companies...

[grumpyjambo]

He is and has started by taking a drop in wages himself. I think most clubs that have a poor season will struggle to make an operating profit. Fortunately we do still have players that can be sold. Also the training centre is bought and paid for and most of the money is in place to redevelop the east stand. Having that done without increasing the debt is pretty good management I'd say.

 

Apart from ratboy and fletcher, who else is there to sell?

[bishyhibby15]

Who told you that?

 

It can be an asset without you owning it. But if you're absolutely sure that it's not just a long term leasehold and that it's not owned by one of Uncle Tom's investment companies...

 

Can you not give up on this as what you state isn't the case. The Directors report states the club procured and opened the new training centre and the Club's balance sheet has it valued at ?5.8m. If the Club didn't own it (say they leased it) it couldn't be included in the balance sheet as they would be overstating the worth of the club as they would include an asset that isn't theirs to dispose of if they wished to do so (which they don't!)

[SMcD]

Who told you that?

 

It can be an asset without you owning it. But if you're absolutely sure that it's not just a long term leasehold and that it's not owned by one of Uncle Tom's investment companies...

 

"The state-of-the-art centre has been built at a cost of ?4.9m and is owned by the football club in perpetuity."

 

From HFC official site.

 

http://www.hibs.co.uk/news/comments.php?id=2507_0_1_0_C

[redm]

Can you not give up on this as what you state isn't the case. The Directors report states the club procured and opened the new training centre and the Club's balance sheet has it valued at ?5.8m. If the Club didn't own it (say they leased it) it couldn't be included in the balance sheet as they would be overstating the worth of the club as they would include an asset that isn't theirs to dispose of if they wished to do so (which they don't!)

 

Don't get shirty about it. Just asking.

 

Strange that it isn't in Hibs name though.

[SMcD]

Don't get shirty about it. Just asking.

 

Strange that it isn't in Hibs name though.

 

Where's this? In your head?

[Im1874]

Don't get shirty about it. Just asking.

 

Strange that it isn't in Hibs name though.

 

Give it up mate... Hibs own their training ground...

[Rudolf's Mate]

Will accounts definitely be published now that they don't have to? When are the accounts due?

 

Sorry mate, not quite sure what you mean by that comment. We have to file yearly accounts by law. Yes we can hold them back however it wouldn't do us any good as there would be financial penalties.

 

Not sure when they are due however thought we only posted the last set a few months back.... Could be wrong!

[siegementality]

Can I just add that hibs were finacially in a bad place around 5 years ago. Since then we have sold a car park and loads of players. Petrie has traded his way out the mess built a stadium and a training ground. Hibs are in a superb financial position. The way to tell that is to look at the accounts of Aberdeen/Hearts. I want a good team on the park though and not too sure if we have that but will wait and see. Hearts fans slagging Rankin or Kerr and the likes I can understand slagging our finances is funny but prob not the best route to take.

 

 

Listen I'll be up front, I detest Hibs, but how anyone can argue your financial position against ours is beyond me. You are five years down the line of where Romanov says he wants us to be. A self sufficient, sustainable business, who has a wage structure that is a certain pecentage of their turnover, no debt, and the possibility of growing our own youngsters.

 

Whether you own this or can sell that is neither here nor there. What do we own and what can we sell?

 

The one undoubted difference is that Hearts are the biggest club. If we can get ourselves into the same financial position as you we have the potential to grow more because quite simply Hearts have a far bigger fanbase.

 

That aside, Petrie has shown prudence and it has reaped benefits in that you are more or less debt free. Still a bunch of smelly peg sellers though!

[ramrod]

thought i'd stumbled onto hibs.net for a moment................................

 

who cares about the balance sheets for fecks sake its scottish cups we want...............................:107years:

[scotland1978]

Listen I'll be up front, I detest Hibs, but how anyone can argue your financial position against ours is beyond me. You are five years down the line of where Romanov says he wants us to be. A self sufficient, sustainable business, who has a wage structure that is a certain pecentage of their turnover, no debt, and the possibility of growing our own youngsters.

 

Whether you own this or can sell that is neither here nor there. What do we own and what can we sell?

 

The one undoubted difference is that Hearts are the biggest club. If we can get ourselves into the same financial position as you we have the potential to grow more because quite simply Hearts have a far bigger fanbase.

 

That aside, Petrie has shown prudence and it has reaped benefits in that you are more or less debt free. Still a bunch of smelly peg sellers though!

 

5 years down the line from where romanov wants to be. That will only work of he sells some car parks or pays off 12.5 of your debt again. Notice Romanov has put far more money into Hearts than Tom Farmer has ever or will ever put into Hibs. In terms of wage bill hearts are a massive club compared to hibs 12.5 million in 2007. Thats say 3 times hibs wage bill of last year which kicked off this discussion. Your fan base is bigger but not that much bigger.

 

Its all going to get very interesting soon with finances. I think Hibs fans are waiting for some massive benefit to our prudence. The truth is in football that can never be certain. Romanov might just decide to bankroll Hearts wage bill till the day he dies.

 

If Setanta don't get a buyer soon they will prob go bust(prob wishfull thinking)(most SPL clubs do have quite wealthy chairmen so could take the hit?) . There is no way football chairman can blame them for the problems like they did with sky(did not see it comming . Hopefully they will go bust and we will go back to sky as I used to hate sky doing scottish football but setanta have changed my mind ....

[Gizmo]

He is and has started by taking a drop in wages himself. I think most clubs that have a poor season will struggle to make an operating profit. Fortunately we do still have players that can be sold. Also the training centre is bought and paid for and most of the money is in place to redevelop the east stand. Having that done without increasing the debt is pretty good management I'd say.

 

"But our current cash resources are insufficient to pay for the sort of new stand everyone would want." - Petrie.

 

I said at the time it was announced it was vapourware, more hobo posturing to appease the deluded support.

 

Who you gonna sell then? Apart from the vastly-overrated Fletcher, who would want any of your journeymen and poor crop of youngsters? The track record of your golden crop of youngsters has been appalling. Riordan - fail. Murray - fail. McManus - epic fail. Brown - gone backwards dramatically. Whittaker - jury out. Infact only the cheating Thomson and perhaps O'Connor could be said to be a success.

 

I'd imagine clubs will think twice before being conned by the snake-oil salesman next time you sell some players!

[Fenerjambo]

Your fan base is bigger but not that much bigger.

 

??? So it was Hearts who had all these empty seats at Hampden in the biggest derby ever and it was Hibs who managed to fill their stadium 36 times in a row not so long ago??? Hibs will never come near to having anything like Hearts' fanbase so don't kid yourself?!

[Drylaw Hearts]

I find it incredible that any Hearts fan questions Hibs financial status.

[Kenbo]

I find it incredible that any Hearts fan questions Hibs financial status.

 

I find it incredible that any Hearts fan would be interested in the Hobos financial status!!!!! The peg sellers can GTF! :107years:

[Drylaw Hearts]

I find it incredible that any Hearts fan would be interested in the Hobos financial status!!!!! The peg sellers can GTF! :107years:

 

Agreed.

[SMcD]

"But our current cash resources are insufficient to pay for the sort of new stand everyone would want." - Petrie.

I said at the time it was announced it was vapourware, more hobo posturing to appease the deluded support.

Who you gonna sell then? Apart from the vastly-overrated Fletcher, who would want any of your journeymen and poor crop of youngsters? The track record of your golden crop of youngsters has been appalling. Riordan - fail. Murray - fail. McManus - epic fail. Brown - gone backwards dramatically. Whittaker - jury out. Infact only the cheating Thomson and perhaps O'Connor could be said to be a success.

 

I'd imagine clubs will think twice before being conned by the snake-oil salesman next time you sell some players!

 

 

Exactly what posturing was this?

 

When planning consent for a new East stand was approved in 2005 the club said absolutely nothing about it. The statements made by the club over the past year or so are in direct response to the supporters who had discovered that the consent was in place. The same fans on .net, the Bounce, etc. pushed for some form of consultation re. any proposed stand - the club responded to this.

 

Hibs have never given a fixed date for starting work, nor have they said that it definitely won't be happening. The board are now saying that Hibs don't have cash in the bank to pay for a new stand. It doesn't mean that they can't/won't borrow it. Do HMFC have ?51M in the bank to fund their proposed development? No, but they may borrow it from the parent company - as Hibs might do.

[SMcD]

And then there's this:

 

HIBS today reacted with anger to claims they have abandoned plans to complete the redevelopment of Easter Road in the face of the current global financial crisis.

 

"We have repeated that message a number of times so nothing has changed in that respect. What we have not said are that the plans have been shelved, abandoned or moth-balled.

 

"We are not able to say when work will commence but we continue to explore the options to make it happen. It's been made all the harder by economic circumstances but we are still working on it."

 

from

 

http://sport.scotsman.com/hibernianfc/Hibs-insist-stadium-plans-are.4494810.jp

[heartsfc_fan]

Makes you wonder why Hibs need to build a new stand (ok the current East stand is probably the worst stand in the SPL) but they would never fill it!

[winston churchill]

And then there's this:

 

 

 

from

 

http://sport.scotsman.com/hibernianfc/Hibs-insist-stadium-plans-are.4494810.jp

 

 

still cant find the line in the article thats says when the first brick will be layed.

[SMcD]

still cant find the line in the article thats says when the first brick will be layed.

 

That'll be because Hibs don't make any grand statements until everything is in place.

 

Mod Edit

[tommythejambo]

That'll be because Hibs don't make any grand statements until everything is in place.

Mod Edit

 

You have made a few valid points up until now and I have read what you have been saying with interest. However, thinly veiled digs like that will get you nowhere.

[SMcD]

You have made a few valid points up until now and I have read what you have been saying with interest. However, thinly veiled digs like that will get you nowhere.

 

Fair enough - it was a dig which, as a guest, is something I try to avoid doing on here. It's still valid though.

[Gizmo]

Exactly what posturing was this?

 

When planning consent for a new East stand was approved in 2005 the club said absolutely nothing about it. The statements made by the club over the past year or so are in direct response to the supporters who had discovered that the consent was in place. The same fans on .net, the Bounce, etc. pushed for some form of consultation re. any proposed stand - the club responded to this.

 

Hibs have never given a fixed date for starting work, nor have they said that it definitely won't be happening. The board are now saying that Hibs don't have cash in the bank to pay for a new stand. It doesn't mean that they can't/won't borrow it. Do HMFC have ?51M in the bank to fund their proposed development? No, but they may borrow it from the parent company - as Hibs might do.

 

There was a big feature about hibs 'new' stand in the evening hobo several months aog. I even recall deluded hibs posters on this forum claiming their stand would be completed before ours.

 

Why announce it in the press when they clearly have neither the cash nor the inclination, nor indeed the need, to build it?

 

Like I said: Vapourware

[SMcD]

There was a big feature about hibs 'new' stand in the evening hobo several months aog. I even recall deluded hibs posters on this forum claiming their stand would be completed before ours.

 

Why announce it in the press when they clearly have neither the cash nor the inclination, nor indeed the need, to build it?

 

Like I said: Vapourware

 

We'll see.

[Walter Bishop]

He is and has started by taking a drop in wages himself. I think most clubs that have a poor season will struggle to make an operating profit. Fortunately we do still have players that can be sold. Also the training centre is bought and paid for and most of the money is in place to redevelop the east stand. Having that done without increasing the debt is pretty good management I'd say.

 

Who buy? Hibernian football club, Hibernian PLC, Hibernian Holdings..... or Tom (1000%apr) Farmer????

[The Riddler]

There was a big feature about hibs 'new' stand in the evening hobo several months aog. I even recall deluded hibs posters on this forum claiming their stand would be completed before ours.

 

Why announce it in the press when they clearly have neither the cash nor the inclination, nor indeed the need, to build it?

 

Like I said: Vapourware

 

And Hearts plan to start work on the main stand at Tynie when exactly?

 

It's hardly deluded for hibs fans to think that the East will go up at Easter Rd before the main at Tynie, just the same as it's not deluded the other way about. It's all guess work until the builders come in etc. There was also a massive front page feature on the biggest stand in the world Hearts are meant to be building too. That's all about selling papers to interested punters.

[SMcD]

Who buy? Hibernian football club, Hibernian PLC, Hibernian Holdings..... or Tom (1000%apr) Farmer????

 

Hibernian Football Club Ltd., which is almost entirely owned by Hibernian Holdings, which is owned by STF - 90% and Rod Petrie - 10%.

 

Any more questions?

 

While we're at it, who owns Hearts and the parent companies?

[The Riddler]

Hibernian Football Club Ltd., which is almost entirely owned by Hibernian Holdings, which is owned by STF - 90% and Rod Petrie - 10%.

 

Any more questions?

 

[While we're at it, who owns Hearts and the parent companies?[/[/u][/b]B]

 

 

Thats the biggest Riddle of the lot.

[Sherlock]

Hibernian Football Club Ltd., which is almost entirely owned by Hibernian Holdings, which is owned by STF - 90% and Rod Petrie - 10%.

 

Any more questions?

 

While we're at it, who owns Hearts and the parent companies?

 

Close but it's actually HFC Holdings. Couldn't tell you the percentage owned by STF and Rod individually but i can tell you about the various mortgages...

 

Hibernian football club: HFC Holdings are the majority shareholder of HFC (the football club) with 58,903,512 shares. The remainder of the 60,000,000 shares are held by hundreds of small shareholders. HFC (the football club) has 3 mortgages and a floating charge with the Bank of Scotland, a floating charge with Girobank plc, a mortgage as well as a bond & floating charge with HFC Holdings and a bond & floating charge to STF.

 

The new training centre is owned by HFC (the football club) but has a mortgage to HFC holdings.

 

HFC holdings: Only two directors, STF & Rod the mowser. This company also has registered 3 mortgages and a floating charge with the Bank of Scotland along with a mortgage and bond & floating charge to STF

 

Saint Tom should consolidate all that debt into one easy payment. It'd be a lot less hassle.

[topcat]

Close but it's actually HFC Holdings. Couldn't tell you the percentage owned by STF and Rod individually but i can tell you about the various mortgages...

 

Hibernian football club: HFC Holdings are the majority shareholder of HFC (the football club) with 58,903,512 shares. The remainder of the 60,000,000 shares are held by hundreds of small shareholders. HFC (the football club) has 3 mortgages and a floating charge with the Bank of Scotland, a floating charge with Girobank plc, a mortgage as well as a bond & floating charge with HFC Holdings and a bond & floating charge to STF.

 

The new training centre is owned by HFC (the football club) but has a mortgage to HFC holdings.

 

HFC holdings: Only two directors, STF & Rod the mowser. This company also has registered 3 mortgages and a floating charge with the Bank of Scotland along with a mortgage and bond & floating charge to STF

 

Saint Tom should consolidate all that debt into one easy payment. It'd be a lot less hassle.

 

Hibs "financial position" is essentially still dependent on the whim of one very wealthy hobbyist.

 

Our positions are not too dissimilar.

[Seymour M Hersh]

Hibs "financial position" is essentially still dependent on the whim of one very wealthy hobbyist.

 

Our positions are not too dissimilar.

 

Ours does like football though.:107years:

[Sherlock]

Hibs "financial position" is essentially still dependent on the whim of one very wealthy hobbyist.

 

Our positions are not too dissimilar.

 

That's it in a nutshell.

 

Try explaining that to a hobonomics expert though.

[SMcD]

Hibs "financial position" is essentially still dependent on the whim of one very wealthy hobbyist.

 

Our positions are not too dissimilar.

 

That's it in a nutshell.

 

Try explaining that to a hobonomics expert though.

 

The difference is that if Hibs major shareholder was to have a fatal accident tomorrow, this would cause no problems for Hibs businesswise, ie. the club is self sufficient.

 

Can the same be said for HMFC? I know Vlad made reference to this very scenario sometime last year, but has anything been done about it?

[SMcD]

Close but it's actually HFC Holdings. Couldn't tell you the percentage owned by STF and Rod individually but i can tell you about the various mortgages...

 

Hibernian football club: HFC Holdings are the majority shareholder of HFC (the football club) with 58,903,512 shares. The remainder of the 60,000,000 shares are held by hundreds of small shareholders. HFC (the football club) has 3 mortgages and a floating charge with the Bank of Scotland, a floating charge with Girobank plc, a mortgage as well as a bond & floating charge with HFC Holdings and a bond & floating charge to STF.

 

The new training centre is owned by HFC (the football club) but has a mortgage to HFC holdings.

 

HFC holdings: Only two directors, STF & Rod the mowser. This company also has registered 3 mortgages and a floating charge with the Bank of Scotland along with a mortgage and bond & floating charge to STF

 

Saint Tom should consolidate all that debt into one easy payment. It'd be a lot less hassle.

 

C'mon, keep up!

 

The accounts published at the weekend show 2 "stadium" mortgages and a parent company loan of ?250K. That's all.

 

Oh! And knocking on ?4M in the bank.

[CJGJ]

The difference is that if Hibs major shareholder was to have a fatal accident tomorrow, this would cause no problems for Hibs businesswise, ie. the club is self sufficient.

 

Can the same be said for HMFC? I know Vlad made reference to this very scenario sometime last year, but has anything been done about it?

 

How is a club that lost money last year -- over ?1m -- be self sufficient ? -- only self sufficient if you include player sales and they are cyclical -- there is only 1 asset left at Easter Road and we all know he is the future of that stand -- when he goes the stand starts.

But once more only by selling have Hibs made a profit -- not self sufficiency.

 

If I sell my house this year I will be in profit but next year with no house to sell ?

[SMcD]

How is a club that lost money last year -- over ?1m -- be self sufficient ? -- only self sufficient if you include player sales and they are cyclical -- there is only 1 asset left at Easter Road and we all know he is the future of that stand -- when he goes the stand starts.

But once more only by selling have Hibs made a profit -- not self sufficiency.

 

If I sell my house this year I will be in profit but next year with no house to sell ?

 

Hibs returned an operating profit for each of their 3 previous financial years - nothing to do with player sales (although player purchases are included). Yes an operating loss was made last year, but there was still a net profit of ?1.2M.

 

If Hibs were to continue to make operating losses year in year out then of course I would be concerned, but for the moment, one or two 'bad' years following 3 good ones doesn't bother me too much.

[CJGJ]

Hibs returned an operating profit for each of their 3 previous financial years - nothing to do with player sales (although player purchases are included). Yes an operating loss was made last year, but there was still a net profit of ?1.2M.

 

If Hibs were to continue to make operating losses year in year out then of course I would be concerned, but for the moment, one or two 'bad' years following 3 good ones doesn't bother me too much.

 

So now you admit that you are not self sufficient but to try and wheedle out of it you state that it is ok to lose money every 2/3 years -- as long as you are relying on player sales you are not self sufficient -- waken up.

All Hobos are quick to point out our financial problems -- as soon as facts are pointed out to you you try to twist them -- exactly what you accuse us of doing -- can't have it both ways.

If you only make a profit by selling assets you will eventually run out of assets -- this is the scenario facing hibs and their fans -- but as they accuse us of doing their heads are in the sand with their backside in the air.

[SMcD]

So now you admit that you are not self sufficient but to try and wheedle out of it you state that it is ok to lose money every 2/3 years -- as long as you are relying on player sales you are not self sufficient -- waken up.

All Hobos are quick to point out our financial problems -- as soon as facts are pointed out to you you try to twist them -- exactly what you accuse us of doing -- can't have it both ways.

If you only make a profit by selling assets you will eventually run out of assets -- this is the scenario facing hibs and their fans -- but as they accuse us of doing their heads are in the sand with their backside in the air.

 

Did you read or even understand my post? Even if you take player sales out of the equation, Hibs have still operated at a profit for 3 out of the last 4 years. Football being what it is (and especially Hibs being what they are), ups and downs are to be expected with last season being a definite down. I'm saying that as long as there aren't too many consecutive 'downs' then Hibs wil be just fine.

 

You can call it hobonomics all you want, but everyone else accepts that Hibs are a well run club - why can't you?

[topcat]

The difference is that if Hibs major shareholder was to have a fatal accident tomorrow, this would cause no problems for Hibs businesswise, ie. the club is self sufficient?

 

Assuming the new ownership was happy to sit on a big lump of real estate halfway between the Parliament and the Executive in return for doing little more than breaking even.

 

Even without Hibs Losing money as a business every year the new owner would be losing out on the potential returns from a more economically rational investment.

 

Hibs position would remain essentially dependent on the whim of a very wealthy hobbyist (Or a consortium of not quite so wealthy ones).

[SMcD]

Assuming the new ownership was happy to sit on a big lump of real estate halfway between the Parliament and the Executive in return for doing little more than breaking even.

 

Even without Hibs Losing money as a business every year the new owner would be losing out on the potential returns from a more economically rational investment.

 

Hibs position would remain essentially dependent on the whim of a very wealthy hobbyist (Or a consortium of not quite so wealthy ones).

 

All true, depending on the provision made, if any (STF's son is more empassioned by Hibs and football than his father), for selling the club.

[topcat]

All true, depending on the provision made, if any (STF's son is more empassioned by Hibs and football than his father), for selling the club.

 

The scenario you allude to would still see Hibs dependent on the whim of one very wealthy hobbyist.

 

It's only the identity hobbyist that would have changed.

 

The actual movements in the direction of self-sufficiency at both clubs are the stadium redevelopment plans.

[The Baldmans Comb]

Here is Hibs operating profit ie excluding player sales for the last 5 years

 

?(0.8)m:2004

?0.6m :2005

?1.2m:2006

?1.5m :2007

?(1.5)m :2008

 

It's hard to see any other conclusion that they run the business on a break even basis and use player sales to pay off debt and build their training ground.

 

I have our figures as well but don't nobody will want me to go there except to say there has been a welcome shift in the unsustainable financial structure at Hearts over the last 12 months without any great loss to the performance on the pitch.

[Calum Anderson]

All true, depending on the provision made, if any (STF's son is more empassioned by Hibs and football than his father), for selling the club.

 

It's pretty clear that STF hasn't run Hibs to try and make money out of the club. He's acted as guarantor and made finance available when the club needed it but crucially not by just giving the money to Hibs.

 

That's the key to it with STF - his ethos since building up Kwik-Fit is based around the notions of community and sustainability. That's reflected in his other business activities. With Hibs he cited the importance to the community in guiding him to intervene nearly twenty years ago. The dection we have been going in and to an extent the point where we have arrived at is one of sustainability.

 

IMO the evidence points to STF backing Hibs to a point where he can relinquish his arms-length ownership and see the club run in some form of trust status. I wouldn't be surprised if he buys RP's stake of him either.