Hibs Financials

[Charlie-Brown]

Here is Hibs operating profit ie excluding player sales for the last 5 years

 

?(0.8)m:2004

?0.6m :2005

?1.2m:2006

?1.5m :2007

?(1.5)m :2008

 

It's hard to see any other conclusion that they run the business on a break even basis and use player sales to pay off debt and build their training ground.

 

I have our figures as well but don't nobody will want me to go there except to say there has been a welcome shift in the unsustainable financial structure at Hearts over the last 12 months without any great loss to the performance on the pitch.

 

Would 12 YEARS not be a more accurate statement ?

[winston churchill]

All true, depending on the provision made, if any (STF's son is more empassioned by Hibs and football than his father), for selling the club.

 

when he tyre boy falls of his perch............his family will sell the sangiro for housing.

 

i am still waiting on a start date for re building the coo shed.

[SMcD]

The scenario you allude to would still see Hibs dependent on the whim of one very wealthy hobbyist.

 

It's only the identity hobbyist that would have changed.

 

The actual movements in the direction of self-sufficiency at both clubs are the stadium redevelopment plans.

 

In the latest accounts, Hibs property is valued at ?18.86M (up from ?14.65M the previous year - East Mains). If a new East stand is constructed, as seems to be the intention, the property value will remain basically the same but the club will be ?7M or so worse off. Hibs debt is currently approx. ?6.7M (ignoring the ?3.9M cash balance, which will be used to pay normal monthly outgoing during the coming season). Assuming no further substantial transfer fee income, a new stand would probably bring the debt up to around ?14M - not far off the value of the stadium land alone (current financial chaos notwithstanding). This makes Hibs wholly unattractive for any prospective buyer who only wants to get his hands on the land, given that a new stadium would have to be built elsewhere.

 

It should also be remembered neither STF nor his family will sell to just anybody. Brian Kennedy (Weathershield guy) tried to buy Hibs a few years back, around about the time we were relegated and Farmer, Gold, etc. were getting serious stick from the fans. STF could have taken the easy option and bolted, but wasn't confident enough in Kennedy's plans for the club.

 

Personally, I have an inkling that the Farmer family will eventually be repaid the sums that STF has spent on Hibs with the club, self-sufficient, being left in trust thereafter. This of course could be total nonsense.

[SMcD]

It's pretty clear that STF hasn't run Hibs to try and make money out of the club. He's acted as guarantor and made finance available when the club needed it but crucially not by just giving the money to Hibs.

 

That's the key to it with STF - his ethos since building up Kwik-Fit is based around the notions of community and sustainability. That's reflected in his other business activities. With Hibs he cited the importance to the community in guiding him to intervene nearly twenty years ago. The dection we have been going in and to an extent the point where we have arrived at is one of sustainability.

 

IMO the evidence points to STF backing Hibs to a point where he can relinquish his arms-length ownership and see the club run in some form of trust status. I wouldn't be surprised if he buys RP's stake of him either.

 

Snap!

[SMcD]

when he tyre boy falls of his perch............his family will sell the sangiro for housing.

 

i am still waiting on a start date for re building the coo shed.

 

Nicely put!

 

Anyway, you'll have to await an official announcement like everyone else.

[The Baldmans Comb]

Would 12 YEARS not be a more accurate statement ?

 

Your taking my quote out of context I think.

 

But to be clear it's obvious over the last 12 months major steps have been taken to address the financial mismanagement of the last 10/12 years.

 

Vlad is now trying to follow the Hibs model of break even operating profit and sale of players to clear the debt and will no longer just pump money in.

 

I don't have a problem with this as it how Hearts and all Scottish clubs have always operated until the financial madness of the nineties and the noughties.

 

Vlad has to get the balance right though and so far he has done well to slash the wages and cut the playing staff while maintaining a decent enough team and recruiting a good manager.

[scotland1978]

Here is Hibs operating profit ie excluding player sales for the last 5 years

 

?(0.8)m:2004

?0.6m :2005

?1.2m:2006

?1.5m :2007

?(1.5)m :2008

 

It's hard to see any other conclusion that they run the business on a break even basis and use player sales to pay off debt and build their training ground.

 

I have our figures as well but don't nobody will want me to go there except to say there has been a welcome shift in the unsustainable financial structure at Hearts over the last 12 months without any great loss to the performance on the pitch.

 

These are exactly the figures to that have allowed hibs to splash the cash in the last couple of years. Which has caused the loss of 1.5m. I would expect another loss next year to be offset by the selling of Fletcher.

 

Its for more fun to watch Rangers sell Hutton half way through a season as they have been broke for years !!

 

Most hibs/hearts fans want a better team on the pitch the problem being whenever we see that we both make a loss. One exception being when hibs brought through 6/7 good young players at the same time. Its clear that a decent youth developement program is the best way forward for both clubs. Now and again making a loss once you sell the best players and bring in a few to make up for it. If you don't have any good young players you have to wait for the next crop or try and get some bargains.

[Sherlock]

C'mon, keep up!

 

The accounts published at the weekend show 2 "stadium" mortgages and a parent company loan of ?250K. That's all.

 

Oh! And knocking on ?4M in the bank.

 

Are you saying the information held at Companies House and the Registers of Scotland is wrong!!!!

 

Hobonomics at it's finest!!!

 

And if you're so familiar with your published accounts - how did you manage to get the name of the parent company wrong?

[Calum Anderson]

Are you saying the information held at Companies House and the Registers of Scotland is wrong!!!!

 

Hobonomics at it's finest!!!

 

And if you're so familiar with your published accounts - how did you manage to get the name of the parent company wrong?

 

To be honest, and this isn't meant as criticism, but I remember a thread on here a while ago about East Mains where you and another poster were claiming all sorts but couldn't even agree about the acreage.

 

As for this case we have filed, published accounts on the one hand and we have a random poster on a messageboard appearing to claim something else. As I say, this isn't meant as criticism but which do you think has more credibility?

[topcat]

Assuming no further substantial transfer fee income, a new stand would probably bring the debt up to around ?14M - not far off the value of the stadium land alone (current financial chaos notwithstanding). This makes Hibs wholly unattractive for any prospective buyer who only wants to get his hands on the land, given that a new stadium would have to be built elsewhere.

 

So Hibs' future will actually be secured by running up a large amount of debt, a strategy obviously inspired by the Pieman.

[The Baldmans Comb]

So Hibs' future will actually be secured by running up a large amount of debt, a strategy obviously inspired by the Pieman.

 

Hibs future is quite clear in a financial sense at least which is that their business model is to operate over a 3 to 5 year period on a break even basis and anything they can get in the way of player sales go towards capital projects such as their training place and maybe a new stand.

 

Their debt is quite low though not nearly as low as they try to pretend and is probably around ?4 million.

 

They just can't afford a new stand though and refuse to go into serious debt to fund this hence the reason why they have put this on hold for the moment.

 

Hearts financial future is a bit more murky but I think they are heading towards the same lines as Hibs but are probably a few years behind. Vlad seems to have seriously rained in the spending and has sold off the better players though for very good money.

 

Debt is being reduced and the days of having 50 players on the books have at last gone.

 

His next big decision will be the new stand and that's a tough one as there is huge potential (both fanbase and commercial) out there but is this the right financial climate to add ?20m to ?40m to the debt burden.?

[Sherlock]

To be honest, and this isn't meant as criticism, but I remember a thread on here a while ago about East Mains where you and another poster were claiming all sorts but couldn't even agree about the acreage.

 

As for this case we have filed, published accounts on the one hand and we have a random poster on a messageboard appearing to claim something else. As I say, this isn't meant as criticism but which do you think has more credibility?

 

Are you saying that Companies House and the Registers of Scotland have no credibility?

 

I assume the thread you refer to is this one. The other poster in question was employed by the same company as myself but worked in a different field. I forwarded the correct documents onto him to clarify matters and he agreed with me. I trust this helps.

 

If you want to bury your head in the sand then that's no skin of my nose. If you are actually interested in the subterfuge and skullduggery that Saint Tom and the mowser are up to their neck in, then pop on down to CH or ROS and pay the small fee required to view the documents. It's all public information, anyone can access it.

 

Have you even seen the accounts? or are you just going on the word of a random hibby poster on a Hearts messageboard who claims to have seen the accounts yet doesn't even know the correct name of your clubs parent company?

[The Baldmans Comb]

Are you saying that Companies House and the Registers of Scotland have no credibility?

 

I assume the thread you refer to is this one. The other poster in question was employed by the same company as myself but worked in a different field. I forwarded the correct documents onto him to clarify matters and he agreed with me. I trust this helps.

 

If you want to bury your head in the sand then that's no skin of my nose. If you are actually interested in the subterfuge and skullduggery that Saint Tom and the mowser are up to their neck in, then pop on down to CH or ROS and pay the small fee required to view the documents. It's all public information, anyone can access it.

 

Have you even seen the accounts? or are you just going on the word of a random hibby poster on a Hearts messageboard who claims to have seen the accounts yet doesn't even know the correct name of your clubs parent company?

 

 

I tried to follow your posts and I think most of your information is correct concerning Hibs structure and shareholdings and who owns what.

 

It's one of my hobbys running the rule over Hibs and Hearts statutory accounts and have copies of both clubs now for the last 10 years.

 

I was wondering though about your comment that 'Saint Tom and the mowser are up to their neck in'?

 

Do you mean debt ? because if you do then you are very well off the mark as it's quite hard to find much debt on Hibs balance sheet either in the football club, the holding company that owns the club or these dodgy companies such as Morsten Securites that exist from time to time.

 

This is quite recent though as you could see debt of around ?18m up until about 2/3 years ago but they cleared this by selling the old car park and half of the team.

 

There debt now was described in their latest accounts as 'distinctly mangeable' by the auditors and I would expect Hearts will also get a much better audit report in a few months time when Hearts accounts are due out.

[Sherlock]

...I was wondering though about your comment that 'Saint Tom and the mowser are up to their neck in'?

 

Do you mean debt?...

 

I mean the subterfuge, skullduggery and general financial shenanigans.

 

Hibby's would have you believe they are a 'model' club and the gruesome twosome run the club the way all clubs should be run.

 

Luckily, most clubs and most clubs owners & chief executives actually have some ambition.

 

Edit: That should read ambition for the football club they own / run.

 

Obviously STF & RTM have ambition. Unfortunately for the weeteamers, that ambition only extends as far as lining their pockets. If your in doubt, have a guess as to who the highest earner at ER is. I'll give you a hint... it's not the manager or any of the players.

[SMcD]

Are you saying that Companies House and the Registers of Scotland have no credibility?

 

I assume the thread you refer to is this one. The other poster in question was employed by the same company as myself but worked in a different field. I forwarded the correct documents onto him to clarify matters and he agreed with me. I trust this helps.

 

If you want to bury your head in the sand then that's no skin of my nose. If you are actually interested in the subterfuge and skullduggery that Saint Tom and the mowser are up to their neck in, then pop on down to CH or ROS and pay the small fee required to view the documents. It's all public information, anyone can access it.

 

Have you even seen the accounts? or are you just going on the word of a random hibby poster on a Hearts messageboard who claims to have seen the accounts yet doesn't even know the correct name of your clubs parent company?

 

I have. What would you like to know?

[Sherlock]

I have. What would you like to know?

 

Nothing thanks. I have 100% faith in the information i have provided.

 

Just thought it strange that you can get basic information incorrect despite having perused said accounts.

 

I'm sure it was just a slight oversight on your part.

[SMcD]

Nothing thanks. I have 100% faith in the information i have provided.

 

Just thought it strange that you can get basic information incorrect despite having perused said accounts.

 

I'm sure it was just a slight oversight on your part.

 

You're right - I made a mistake re. the parent company's name.

 

I do however have a copy of the accounts to July 2008 and can assure you that the information you have is no longer correct - that's assuming it ever was.

[Sherlock]

You're right - I made a mistake re. the parent company's name.

 

I do however have a copy of the accounts to July 2008 and can assure you that the information you have is no longer correct - that's assuming it ever was.

 

Aye, okay then.

 

Admin, why don't we have a 'burying their head in the sand' smiley?

[SMcD]

Aye, okay then.

 

Admin, why don't we have a 'burying their head in the sand' smiley?

 

Exactly how am I burying my head in the sand?

[Calum Anderson]

Have you even seen the accounts?

 

I have a copy, yes. If you would like me to relate anything in them, just ask.

[Sherlock]

Exactly how am I burying my head in the sand?

 

I'm getting bored with this.

 

I ... can assure you that the information you have is no longer correct - that's assuming it ever was.

 

You're burying your head in the sand because you're dismissing the facts without reasonable argument because they don't suit your point of view.

 

I'd suggest you actually go and have a look for yourself by visiting the two government bodies i mentioned earlier, paying the small charge and accessing the relevant information.

 

Once you've done that, feel free to bump this thread and we can take things from there.

 

Dismissing the facts without first investigating their validity is simply burying your head in the sand. I trust this helps.

[Sherlock]

I have a copy, yes. If you would like me to relate anything in them, just ask.

 

[The Baldmans Comb]

I mean the subterfuge, skullduggery and general financial shenanigans.

 

Hibby's would have you believe they are a 'model' club and the gruesome twosome run the club the way all clubs should be run.

 

Luckily, most clubs and most clubs owners & chief executives actually have some ambition.

 

Edit: That should read ambition for the football club they own / run.

 

Obviously STF & RTM have ambition. Unfortunately for the weeteamers, that ambition only extends as far as lining their pockets. If your in doubt, have a guess as to who the highest earner at ER is. I'll give you a hint... it's not the manager or any of the players.

 

If you don't mind I won't go into discussions of ''subterfuge, skullduggery and general financial shenanigans'' as it's something that at Hibs or Hearts that I know nothing about and you just can't get this sort of information from bland statutory accounts and register of shareholders

 

I would imagine the Chief Executive: Rod Petrie is easily the highest earner and this was from memory around ?190k as Hibs published this in the 2006 and 2007 accounts (as they had to) under staff cost and wages (sorry don't have access at the moment).

 

I'd agree completely about ambition (and lack of) though to be honest 'lining their pockets' just sounds with respect to be have no foundation in fact in the same way as Hibs fans claim that Vlad is just 'a money laundering crook'.

 

Hibs are obviously a very financially stable club there is no getting away from that though they had to sell lots of players to get to that position.

 

When it comes to big decisions 'The gruesome twosome' as you call them make very impressive financial decsions such as the ?9m car park sale at the peak of the market and I was impressed as well by their decision to buy their training ground outright and cleverly buy up far more land than they need which they will sell for housing later when the green belt is eventually breached further.

 

Equally Vlad's no slouch either financially as his land deal with Edinburgh council was very impressive and at a great price and long term can only be good for Hearts whether or not he is around for much longer or not as it will give tremendous opportunities for future owners.

[The Baldmans Comb]

I'm getting bored with this.

 

 

 

You're burying your head in the sand because you're dismissing the facts without reasonable argument because they don't suit your point of view.

 

I'd suggest you actually go and have a look for yourself by visiting the two government bodies i mentioned earlier, paying the small charge and accessing the relevant information.

 

Once you've done that, feel free to bump this thread and we can take things from there.

 

Dismissing the facts without first investigating their validity is simply burying your head in the sand. I trust this helps.

 

 

I was wondering what it is you are arguing about here?

 

I have copies of all Hibs statutory accounts, register of shareholders and new stand planning permission and I also have Hearts statutory accounts and planning permssion submission and the land sale document report put together by Edinburgh City Council in 2006 as well as an out of date register of shareholders.

 

 

What point are you trying to make in specific terms and maybe I can help answer it as I'm not able to follow from the thread what your claim is about either of the two clubs.

[Sherlock]

I was wondering what it is you are arguing about here?

 

I have copies of all Hibs statutory accounts, register of shareholders and new stand planning permission and I also have Hearts statutory accounts and planning permssion submission and the land sale document report put together by Edinburgh City Council in 2006 as well as an out of date register of shareholders.

 

What point are you trying to make in specific terms and maybe I can help answer it as I'm not able to follow from the thread what your claim is about either of the two clubs.

 

Last post on this thread.

 

I'm not 'claiming' anything. I simply posted a few facts about Hibs financials, as per the thread title. These facts were dismissed by hibs fans. I then suggested that they check this info out for themselves if they didn't believe me.

 

I'm unsure as to why that wasn't clear to you from my posts.

[The Baldmans Comb]

Last post on this thread.

 

I'm not 'claiming' anything. I simply posted a few facts about Hibs financials, as per the thread title. These facts were dismissed by hibs fans. I then suggested that they check this info out for themselves if they didn't believe me.

 

I'm unsure as to why that wasn't clear to you from my posts.

 

It was very clear from your posts that you knew the structure of Hibs shareholders and I think you are absolutely correct on this.

 

What wasn't at all clear was your points about 'Hibs being dependant on one wealthy hobbyist' (not your words) but 'That's it in a nutshell' was your reply and then you went on to talk about the 'skullduggerry' and 'lining of the pockets' of Farmer and Petrie.

 

My apologies but by your continual references to Register House and Companies House I thought you had come to some sort of conculsion based upon the available information and I was intrigued to know why.

 

Overall it's pretty clear Hibs are no longer dependant on Farmer and can operate their model independantly of him and are a run as a very financially stable club. It is just daft for some Hearts fans to argue otherwise.

 

Equally unlike many others I think Hearts will get there as well even with Vlad at the helm as he is making the right financial steps and as long as he doesn't try to go to quickly and keeps a decent team on the pitch I think in time the financial position will stabilise and improve significantly and long term the deal with Edinburgh council was excellent.

[topcat]

Exactly how am I burying my head in the sand?

 

You're suggesting that a breakeven business that takes on a large debt for a stand it can't fill remains a breakeven business.

 

You're assuming that if a new owner sold Foster Road they'd have to build another stadium

 

And some of the stuff Legend said

[bishyhibby15]

You're suggesting that a breakeven business that takes on a large debt for a stand it can't fill remains a breakeven business.

 

You're assuming that if a new owner sold Foster Road they'd have to build another stadium

 

And some of the stuff Legend said

 

You could make the identical point about Hearts this season, how often have they filled Tynecastle!

 

Hibs by building the new stand will increase the capacity by around just over 3,000 taking Easter Road's capacity to just under 21,000, not a massive increase in the capacity. The poor facilities of the East stand will be replaced by a modern stand. I know people who are deterred from attending Easter Road due to the available seats only being in the East stand. I think if the facility is built crowds will increase. The ground once complete could also become the best alternative to the SFA/SFL for internationals/cup semis outside Glasgow thus earning Hibs more revenue? They also intend to widen the pitch at the same time making the stadium fully UEFA compliant.

 

Why do you doubt Tom Farmer's motives? He's not going to sell it to somebody who will close the club down to make a quick buck for housing development. The likely option is some sort of trust but if some credible Hibs business leaders/wealthy individuals approached Sir Tom I'm sure he would consider it. But just as David Murray has said at Rangers I'm sure he will be careful who he sells to, to ensure the Hibees remain in reasonably safe hands

[Charlie-Brown]

There a no serious buyers for Hibs just like there are no serious buyers for Hearts - very few can afford it & even fewer have the motivation or will to actually make the purchase.