Heart of Midlothian War Memorial

[Coco]

With yesterday's news that a vast part of the so-called Waterfront development is not going to happen in the foreseeable future, the Council/TIE are in even more financial peril on the tram line.

 

They will be looking to avoid any extra costs on things insignificant to them and their juicy salaries such as the Memorial.

[Boris]

The Haymarket memorial is understood by most to be a Hearts memorial, erected and paid for by Hearts supporters.

 

If this is the case, who actually owns it? Can the Council simply remove it with no action at all? e.g. if it where a privately owned house would they not have to get a compulsary purchase order from the Executive?

 

Fingers crossed the Clowncil see sense and place it back at Haymarket, but if not then we must fight them.

[Gibbo]

According to The Scotsman report on the original unveiling that I quoted above the memorial was presented to Edinburgh Corporation, as the Council was then called. The Lord Provost promised that it would be "preserved with all reverence and honour in all coming time."

[Craig Herbertson]

Very well said Ulysses. I agree wholeheartedly. Time to do something to stop this and an action group is probably a good start.

 

Past generations have their representatives only in those who are here now and who can defend the possibilities for future generations. At the very least, and I mean the very least, the act of turning up ensures the meeting of old friends in a common purpose. For me, the soul of Heart of Midlothian rests in this yearly ceremony and its counterpart now in France. If we don't defend the monument's location it will be a disgrace to those poor men. Young kids coming up will have less reason to identify with the good things about our club - one of which is the constant acknowledgement of those other sportsmen involved - and from where I'm standing the good things are getting very hard to percieve.

[Ben Dover]

According to The Scotsman report on the original unveiling that I quoted above the memorial was presented to Edinburgh Corporation, as the Council was then called. The Lord Provost promised that it would be "preserved with all reverence and honour in all coming time."

 

Although the monument itself was 'left' in the care of the City, I'm sure I read somewhere that the ground that it stands on was gifted to the club in perpetuity .........or something along those lines

[brownkg]

Although the monument itself was 'left' in the care of the City, I'm sure I read somewhere that the ground that it stands on was gifted to the club in perpetuity .........or something along those lines

 

That would be a very interesting "fly in the ointment" to find out about. where did you think you heard this? how can one go about finding the veracity of this statement?

[Ulysses]

Some members have been in contact to say that they would be interested in helping out if an action group/committee is set up. We'll write back to them as soon as possible.

 

If anyone else reading this thread is interested, please let me know by PM.

[eusabio]

I think I am correct in saying that the Memorial has been moved on at least one, and possibly two previous occasions possibly in the fifties/sixties--check old photos----to facilitate traffic rearrangements, and I feel that now is the time to select a site that will be its location for all time. I would suggest the paved area to the west of Ryrires where the pavement is quite wide

[davemclaren]

I think I am correct in saying that the Memorial has been moved on at least one, and possibly two previous occasions possibly in the fifties/sixties--check old photos----to facilitate traffic rearrangements, and I feel that now is the time to select a site that will be its location for all time. I would suggest the paved area to the west of Ryrires where the pavement is quite wide

 

I totally agree it should stay at Haymarket however to expect a permanent site for all time is unrealistic. The traffic requirements for the Maglev in 2036 will necessitate a further move. Alternatively, going back to Horse and Carts may also allow a more central position.

[Boab Mugabe]

To say the memorial has served its purpose is absolutely disgusting and sums up the type of ****bags we're dealing with in the cooncil. I'm not an overly reverential person but it is our duty to ensure that the memorial is held with the appropriate importance/prominence.

 

If the removal of the memorial from Haymarket is allowed to happen then it is not only an affront to Edinburgh, Scotland and Britain, it is an affront to us for allowing it to happen.

[Cigaro]

Cheers for drawing attention to this Ulysses. I, as Im sure many others have, hadnt noticed this in the stickies section.

 

I agree that the memorial should be kept as much in the position it is at the moment as possible (barring for work to be done as mentioned by JA). I have never been to a service there, but every time I drive past it it makes me think about it, as Im sure it does with many others. Moving it would be like pushing the memory of these guys to one side, out of the way, which cant be allowed to happen.

[ArmiyaRomanova]

If the monument is to be moved even temporarily in order to accommodate the tram track works, then this November will be the last for it in its present location.

 

I'd suggest that a significant show of numbers for the service this year couldn't do any harm at all in showing the extent of feeling for the monument and all that it stands for.

 

I admit that I've been slow to roll out of bed on occasion (including last year).

 

But I certainly won't be this year.

[Ulysses]

I'd suggest that a significant show of numbers for the service this year couldn't do any harm at all in showing the extent of feeling for the monument and all that it stands for.

 

This year also sees the 90th anniversary of Armistice Day, which should mean that services have a higher profile than usual. The anniversary might also make it easier to explain our worries to a sympathetic public.

[magicTs]

 

Note that in addition to the possibility of returning the clocktower to the traffic island, there still remains the ‘second’ Haymarket option. Funding for the station redevelopment has yet to be confirmed by the Government. When this goes through, they explained that there will be sufficient funds to relocate the Memorial to the Council’s originally suggested site, in front of Ryrie’s. It occurred to me that the Football Club and its supporter bodies might look into the costing of this proposal with a view to calling the Council’s bluff by raising funds to pay for the landscaping themselves. In any case I think the fate of the Heart of Midlothian Memorial is too important to be tied into a project as large as the station plan. The two should not be linked.

 

 

Last year I attended the Remembrance Service for the umpteenth time but for some reason (it may have been that it was so well organised and much easier to hear and therefore follow) it had a greater effect on me and I vowed that I would always attend if in Edinburgh or nearby. To hear this news makes my blood boil. This is an issue that all Hearts fans and indeed those of other football clubs involved should embrace and to me it's all about raising awareness. I have already informed a journalist friend (and fellow ST holder) who was completely unaware of this but will be following up tomorrow ? Jack would you be prepared to speak to him and if so how would he get in touch ?

 

My question is who does know at the moment ?

What is Hearts position ? For instance has Campbell Ogilvie been made aware ? What about the Federation or other fan groups ? What about well known Hearts 'faces' like Foulkes, Deans, Pilmuir Smith etc ? Should leaflets be handed out before a home game letting a greater number of people know ? Would the club print something in the programme ? What about a public petition ?

[Devorgilla]

Being quite some distance from the Capital I'm maybe not as au-fait with the tram works as others. Therefore a couple of questions:

 

Is the design work for the track positions etc. limited to the plans available as downloads here?:

 

http://www.tramtime.com/tramhovermap.html

 

(The north Edinburgh loop is the relevant one - the Haymarket in the titles is the railway depot, not the station (large download, some 9Mb).)

 

If so are the upcoming consultations on Traffic Regulation Orders the first consultations on the detail of the alignment? They appear to be the ideal opportunity to make views known.

 

A related issue might be if the Memorial is listed? If so this would presumably affect parts of the process, ie presumably planning consent to move/take down would be needed?

 

It is listed, see:

 

http://hsewsf.sedsh.gov.uk/hslive/hsstart?P_HBNUM=26889

 

from:

 

http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/index/heritage/historicandlistedbuildings/listedbuildingsresults.htm?p_out=xml&p_all=war+memorial&p_couname=Edinburgh%2C+City+Of&p_parbur=0

 

although it is the lowest category. Guidance on listed building seems to be here:

 

http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/memorandum-of-guidance-listed-buildings.pdf#xml=http://www.historic-scotland.gov.uk/texis/webinator/pubssearch/pdfhi.txt?pr=publications&prox=page&rorder=500&rprox=500&rdfreq=500&rwfreq=500&rlead=500&rdepth=0&sufs=0&orde.

 

Hope some of this helps!

[Rab]

Lots of talk, lets see action.

 

Spell out what the average JKB user can do, and he/she'll do it.

[I P Knightley]

Lots of talk, lets see action.

 

Spell out what the average JKB user can do, and he/she'll do it.

 

Agreed. (& thanks, uly, for drawing it to my attention)

 

Would it be a good idea to have text for a standard letter available that we could each download and send to a chosen official?

 

In an earlier message, Jack expressed concern about vilifying any individuals. I'm sure if the text were standardised, it could convey the emotion put so eloquently by some on here and raise the profile of the place.

 

I'll put my signature to anything that helps prevent the erosion of Edinburgh's history and an element of it that is personally very meaningful.

 

Cheers

[connlach]

Lots of talk, lets see action.

 

Spell out what the average JKB user can do, and he/she'll do it.

 

Is it worth getting one of these online petitions going and also getting a petition signed outside Tynecastle on a match day, maybe at the next derby as Hibs fans I'm sure would be happy to sign as well?

[4marsbars]

Quite apart from what the clock signifies (and that's compelling enough for all the reasons outlined by other posters here) it is THE landmark object (perhaps along with the station and that big chimney) which Edinburgh folk associate with Haymarket.

 

It belongs in Haymarket and it should not be moved from there.

 

As it happens I'm strongly in favour of trams, but it cannot be beyond the wit of any planner / designer to ensure that the clock remains at the Haymarket junction where it belongs. An example (maybe not the best) would be the relocation of the Eros fountain when Piccadilly Circus was reconfigured.

[Guest juvehearts]

Lots of talk, lets see action.

 

Spell out what the average JKB user can do, and he/she'll do it.

 

 

I think that hits the nail on the head Rab.

 

what can we do to assist in this?

im not being funny when i say this but this affects the whole of edinburgh & fife also.

 

should this go on Hibs.net also?

 

it might heavily envlove Heart of Midlothian Football Club, but it also envloves Hibs, Raith Rovers & Dunfermline FC.

 

whatever our opnion of football teams. THIS GOES MUCH FUTHER

 

we can & must do everything possiable to fight for this to remain at haymarket.

[BigC]

Lots of talk, lets see action.

 

Spell out what the average JKB user can do, and he/she'll do it.

 

Some more ideas which could be incorporated (feedback welcome):

 

Let's have a website and/or an online petition. There must be several website designers who could do the campaign proud. You can easily start a petition at http://www.petitionsonline.com but it would be even better if a slick website was designed alongside it.

 

We could then visit other supporters forums for teams throughout the UK and share out story and post a link to the website to get as many signatures as possible.

 

Share resources:

 

Everyone with pictures of anything to do with memorial, the soldiers who lost their lives etc please post them on this thread so that others who actively get involved can use them.

 

Poster Campaign:

 

The website designers could also design posters which could be printed and displayed in shop windows in the Haymarket and Gorgie area.

 

Standard letter:

 

I agree with the standard letter idea. Can I suggest that Jack and Ulysess get together and draft a letter?

 

Public meeting:

 

We should try to meet up ourselves before the public meeting to discuss strategy. Can we have suggestions for a location if members agree with me that this is a good idea. The BMC club perhaps?

 

(I work until 8pm most nights so I'll struggle to get to meetings, but otherwise I will support the campaign in any way I can).

[BigC]

For some reason I can't edit my post above, but the link I gave was wrong, it should be:

 

http://www.petitiononline.com/

[Spellczech]

Is anybody outside of the Council Chambers actually in favour of these trams? I've met nobody at all who thinks they are a good idea...Nobody who thinks they will reduce traffic, nobody who would use them.

 

Seems like an expensive, inflexible replacement for the 100 Express bus between the stations and the airport, and quite why it needs expanded down to one housing estate out by Leith is beyond me...

 

From my experience of living in cities which have trams they require a network not just a single line. What happens if a tram breaks down? The whole Edinburgh line will grind to a halt!

 

Crass stupidity by a bunch of cooncillers who clearly don't have enough to do with their time or our money...Their sole motivation seems to be that Edinburgh is an old, historic city so needs a quaint, quasi-historic transport option to prettify Princes Street, which is a bit of an embarassment if you don't look south whilst walking along it...

[Father Tiresias]

Is anybody outside of the Council Chambers actually in favour of these trams? I've met nobody at all who thinks they are a good idea...Nobody who thinks they will reduce traffic, nobody who would use them.

 

Seems like an expensive, inflexible replacement for the 100 Express bus between the stations and the airport, and quite why it needs expanded down to one housing estate out by Leith is beyond me...

 

From my experience of living in cities which have trams they require a network not just a single line. What happens if a tram breaks down? The whole Edinburgh line will grind to a halt!

 

Crass stupidity by a bunch of cooncillers who clearly don't have enough to do with their time or our money...Their sole motivation seems to be that Edinburgh is an old, historic city so needs a quaint, quasi-historic transport option to prettify Princes Street, which is a bit of an embarassment if you don't look south whilst walking along it...

 

I was in both Nice and Bordeaux during the summer. These cities have recently had tram networks installed and those of you who were in Bordeaux for the Hearts game there will remember the city looked pretty much like Edinburgh looks today.

 

The feelings of the Nicoise and the Bordelais were similar to those residents in Edinburgh as I found out in Nice and a bar owner in Bordeaux pointed out to me back in 2003.

 

Now, the people of Nice and Bordeaux are hugely proud of their respective tram networks which are heavily used.

 

As someone who has an open mind on the Edinburgh trams, maybe, just maybe, we'll all be hugely impressed and proud of our network.

[Carl Spackler]

Have Historic Scotland been consulted? This is surely a scheduled monument and so they surely must have been. Are they not opposed to it being moved?

 

Atholl Crescent is a nice enough spot but the monument would not be prominent there. The monument is a prominent and important part of Haymarket.

[Deevers]

I was in both Nice and Bordeaux during the summer. These cities have recently had tram networks installed and those of you who were in Bordeaux for the Hearts game there will remember the city looked pretty much like Edinburgh looks today.

 

The feelings of the Nicoise and the Bordelais were similar to those residents in Edinburgh as I found out in Nice and a bar owner in Bordeaux pointed out to me back in 2003.

 

Now, the people of Nice and Bordeaux are hugely proud of their respective tram networks which are heavily used.

 

As someone who has an open mind on the Edinburgh trams, maybe, just maybe, we'll all be hugely impressed and proud of our network.

 

 

 

Not if they trample on the city's heritage and culture in order to drive this through no matter what. The simple truth in this matter is that the people involved with TIE don't give a flying hoot for the people of Edinburgh - they are only really concerned with pocketing their bonuses for finishing this project on time and as close to budget as possible. Edinburgh (and Hearts)heritage is unimportant to them and the faceless officials in the council.

That quite frankly is unacceptable - and it should be to our "elected" representatives on the council.

[Father Tiresias]

Not if they trample on the city's heritage and culture in order to drive this through no matter what. The simple truth in this matter is that the people involved with TIE don't give a flying hoot for the people of Edinburgh - they are only really concerned with pocketing their bonuses for finishing this project on time and as close to budget as possible. Edinburgh (and Hearts)heritage is unimportant to them and the faceless officials in the council.

That quite frankly is unacceptable - and it should be to our "elected" representatives on the council.

 

I totally agree with you, however, the rights and wrongs, the pro's and con's of the tram network is really for another thread.

 

This thread is about the proposed removal/relocation of the Hearts War Memorial away from it's 'home' at the Haymarket junction and that's the most important issue to us all.

[Deevers]

I totally agree with you, however, the rights and wrongs, the pro's and con's of the tram network is really for another thread.

 

This thread is about the proposed removal/relocation of the Hearts War Memorial away from it's 'home' at the Haymarket junction and that's the most important issue to us all.

 

Exactly - so I suggest you re-examine your own post!

[Father Tiresias]

Exactly - so I suggest you re-examine your own post!

 

I'm very well aware that my own post was off topic and pointed that out, but in my defence, I was simply replying to another poster.

[Stupid Sexy Flanders]

This is a disgrace, I would be happy to be part of any kind of action that we wish to take.

[john brownlee]

 

Me too

 

I don't live in Edinburgh so it would be no point in me threatening the cooncilers of the ward concerned with the precious vote but there's nothing more they fear, is losing their vote. Lobby them and harass them if they think that they're going to lose their seat they will act

[robin hood jambo]

[

Time for all Hearts fans to really start attending this event in very large numbers and 'jacking up' the pressure on the Council to not only retain what we want but improve on what they have been 'allowing' recently

 

Couldnt agree more! the best way to show the council how important the memorial is to fans, the club and edinburgh is to show up in record numbers this year.

 

As another post mentioned the council pay scant respect to this event by allowing traffic etc to start before the service is over, perhaps large numbers will make a significant impression on them.

 

There is NO reason for the memorial to be re-erected in or very near its exixting spot and this should be fought all the way.

[Jarhead]

Two things spring to mind for me,

1- Although the dominent connection with the memorial is with Heart of Midlothian Football Club we must not allow it to become seen as just a Hearts memorial. The Hearts players may have taken the lead but we must not downplay the role of those who followed.

2- The really striking thing about the memorial is its prominent position at one of the major gateways to the city centre. It would be an absolute tragedy if it was to be permanently sited in a side street garden.

[bean counter]

Like MagicT's I felt as did many others who posted at the time that last years service was one of the most emotive for many years due I suspect to the fact that the traffic was properly controlled\stopped cumulating in a proper respectful minutes silence.

 

Any plan to move the memorial away from Haymarket long term should be resisted and I also belive that the services during the two years of the Tram works should be held in Haymarket not Atholl crescent.

[stirlo]

The removal of the memorial from the Haymarket junction is unthinkable. I think that the location of the memorial in the heart of a busy junction that is one of the main throughfares into Edinburgh City Centre represents a very poignant and important reminder to the thousands of people that pass through that junction everyday, of the ultimate sacrifice made by some very brave individuals.

 

The problem we have is that as the First World War gradually becomes a more distant event, many people will become more and more ignorant of what a devastating impact that event had on a generation and what sacrifices so many people made.

 

We cannot allow such a momentous event in the history of not just Edinburgh, but the whole country, to be forgotten. The location of the Memorial at Haymarket is a crucial part of keeping the memory alive.

[mitch41]

That's a particularly perceptive and wise posting, CJGJ. I couldn't have put it better myself.

 

as a matter of interest what are the names of these officials who are causing us all this concern about our war memorial.

 

these people who have no other aim other than move anything that gets in the way of these trams need to be put straight about what is important to the hearts support as well as many other people.

 

elected members of the council had better start to take a lead in supporting the hearts war memorial staying in haymarket where it belongs.

[Jack Alexander]

At the meeting with the Council's Transport Co-ordinator on September 2, Alan and myself were somewhat taken aback to learn that the widely touted Ryrie's proposal was never really a 'formal' proposal - merely part of a 'suggested layout'.

 

What's undeniable, however, is that Edinburgh Council and TIE (the supposedly competent bodies in the Memorial debate) were quite prepared to freely publicise Ryrie's as a genuine possibility. It formed a key part of their 'Three Option' consultation over the future shape of Haymarket Station and its pedestrian approaches.

 

I've said before that the fate of the Heart of Midlothian War Memorial should not be tied into the somewhat uncertain plans for development of the railway station. If Ryries is the best place (and I believe that it is), then that's where it should end up.

 

The Council has embarked upon a two and a half year reconstruction of the Haymarket junction. Why can we not simply incorporate the Memorial into the redesign of the Ryrie's pavement area?

 

The Council accepted the practicality and desirability of that option only last year. They spent a great deal of (public) money on leaflets, mock-up drawings and films. In a virtual world it remains possible to walk into the spacious new station - directly past the clocktower. That clocktower, moreover, is only yards from the original position that it was built on in 1921/22 - on land granted 'in perpetuity' for the purposes of Remembrance.

 

I propose that we aim for the Ryrie's site - reminding the Council that it is their own suggestion! If (as they did a fortnight ago) they claim that the work is dependent on funding as part of the Station redevelopment, I propose that we ask them how much it will cost to do the work.

 

When they tell us, I suggest that the Heart of Midlothian 'family' come together (for once) and raise the necessary finance to carry out the work - calling upon the certain support of their many friends in the football and non-football worlds.

 

We are not talking about a 'statue' here. It's not a dead block of stone. It's a living, breathing, daily reminder of a terrible sacrifice. As it approaches its centenary it deserves to retain its pride and its prominence.

 

The Ryrie's site allows just that. It also allows the traffic planners to remove it from the absolute centre of the junction. It's a compromise, but an honourable one.

 

Over the past few days I have become increasingly concerned about the plan for a two-year storage period. I know that the work in the junction is important. And I know that the clocktower will be an inconvenient presence during that work.

 

Perhaps we could investigate the possibility of a short-term 'move' - say to the end of Grosvenor Street - with concrete written assurances that if funding can be put in place to return the Memorial to beside Ryrie's (almost, as I said, it's original home - and in accordance with the Council's own 'suggestion') the work will be carried out.

 

The option of a temporary home at Atholl Crescent is no more than a 'wooden horse'. Accept that and we accept the eventual removal of the jewel in the Heart of Midlothian crown to the same sorry spot.

 

It cannot be allowed to happen.

[davemclaren]

 

When they tell us, I suggest that the Heart of Midlothian 'family' come together (for once) and raise the necessary finance to carry out the work - calling upon the certain support of their many friends in the football and non-football worlds.

 

 

 

It cannot be allowed to happen.

 

 

I totally agree. Surely it's something that the existing fans groups ( as the Gn or whatever ) can unite over. As a member of the Shareholders Association and Supporters Trust I've already contacted them indicating that I feel this is something that needs their attention and action.

[londonjambo]

.

 

That clocktower, moreover, is only yards from the original position that it was built on in 1921/22 - on land granted 'in perpetuity' for the purposes of Remembrance.

 

Just a thought - if the land on which the Memorial stands was granted "in perpetuity" for the purposes of the Memorial, there may be a legal angle here for the Scots lawyers.

 

Not so much in terms of the movement of the Memorial itself but in terms of then allowing the land on which it stood to be used for any other purpose.

 

A legal move might be sufficient to make the Council think again but it will be expensive - unless there are some good Hearts supporting Scots property lawyers out there who do pro bono work.

 

Anyway, put me down as someone who will do what he can to help, albeit from a distance.

 

GC

[redm]

Just a thought - if the land on which the Memorial stands was granted "in perpetuity" for the purposes of the Memorial, there may be a legal angle here for the Scots lawyers.

 

Not so much in terms of the movement of the Memorial itself but in terms of then allowing the land on which it stood to be used for any other purpose.

 

A legal move might be sufficient to make the Council think again but it will be expensive - unless there are some good Hearts supporting Scots property lawyers out there who do pro bono work.

 

Anyway, put me down as someone who will do what he can to help, albeit from a distance.

 

GC

 

Good point, and one which Jack can maybe shed some light upon? If not, a quick search at land registry might help. Might be tricky if nothing much has happened to the land in the last few decades as it won't have been moved on to the new system and might then require a shufty through the jungle known as sasines.

 

Link here to some of the council docs including a location plan if anyone wants a look: http://citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk/WAM/showCaseFile.do?appType=DC&appNumber=08/00980/PA

[frankblack]

One option here could be to contact your local councillor and let them know that you wish them to ensure the retention of the memorial at Haymarket in a prominent location.

 

When are the next Council elections - 2 years?

 

Let them know that if they fail to support the future of the memorial that you and an organised group of Hearts fans will be voting them out. Remember that hobo councilor - Ponton? that tried every stalling tactic to prevent the sale of the land to us? Lost his seat for it.

 

These people are in politics for their own self interest and will soon change their tune when their seat is under threat.

[Independence]

Fat Alex is an oily self-publicist, not a Hearts fan. This was proven conclusively in a thread from a few weeks ago. He's been nowhere near Tynecastle since nineteen oatcake.

 

What a disgrace that anyone would use this thread to highlight their own political beliefs in such a childish way!!!

 

Mr. Salmond is a Hearts fan and I am sure he would be more than willing to help.

[davemclaren]

I totally agree. Surely it's something that the existing fans groups ( as the Gn or whatever ) can unite over. As a member of the Shareholders Association and Supporters Trust I've already contacted them indicating that I feel this is something that needs their attention and action.

 

I got a reply from Derek Watson of the HMST as follows.

 

Thanks for the e mail. We will put this on the agenda for the next Trust Board meeting on Sept 29th.

 

No point in having these organisations if we don't try to use them in circumstances such as these.

[john brownlee]

THIS IS IS NOT A STICKY

 

PUT ON THE TERRACE AS WELL

[Jack Alexander]

Good point, and one which Jack can maybe shed some light upon? If not, a quick search at land registry might help. Might be tricky if nothing much has happened to the land in the last few decades as it won't have been moved on to the new system and might then require a shufty through the jungle known as sasines.

 

Link here to some of the council docs including a location plan if anyone wants a look: http://citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk/WAM/showCaseFile.do?appType=DC&appNumber=08/00980/PA

 

The land on which the Memorial originally stood (ie just to the right of the suggested Ryrie's site, as you face the station) was granted by the Corporation 'in perpetuity'.

 

Remember, however, that in 1972 the clocktower was moved thirty yards to its present position. No renewed commitment about perpetuity was given at that time, so it's simply sitting on another piece of municipal roadway.

 

It is a listed building - Category C (S). Interestingly, there is potential to have that listing raised to grade 'B'. Under those circumstances it could then be formally 'grouped' with other nearby buildings in that class - Haymarket Station, Ryrie's Bar and parts of Haymarket Terrace.

 

Clearly it would not suit the Council at the moment if an application for such 'elevation' was successful.

[WorldChampions1902]

The land on which the Memorial originally stood (ie just to the right of the suggested Ryrie's site, as you face the station) was granted by the Corporation 'in perpetuity'.

 

Remember, however, that in 1972 the clocktower was moved thirty yards to its present position. No renewed commitment about perpetuity was given at that time, so it's simply sitting on another piece of municipal roadway.

 

It is a listed building - Category C (S). Interestingly, there is potential to have that listing raised to grade 'B'. Under those circumstances it could then be formally 'grouped' with other nearby buildings in that class - Haymarket Station, Ryrie's Bar and parts of Haymarket Terrace.

 

Clearly it would not suit the Council at the moment if an application for such 'elevation' was successful.

See image below for its original location.

 

Given that this land was granted in perpetuity, does that mean a legal challenge along those lines could result in it being removed back to its original location?

 

Presumably, that in turn would inconvenience the route of the tramway and therefore provide the leverage we would all want, to have the monument placed at an alternative Haymarket site less disruptive to the councils plans?

 

Or is life not that simple?

 

[Jack Alexander]

See image below for its original location.

 

Given that this land was granted in perpetuity, does that mean a legal challenge along those lines could result in it being removed back to its original location?

 

Presumably, that in turn would inconvenience the route of the tramway and therefore provide the leverage we would all want, to have the monument placed at an alternative Haymarket site less disruptive to the councils plans?

 

Or is life not that simple?

 

 

I wish life were that simple.

 

I don't think we should be tilting at that particular windmill - at least not if we want to be taken seriously. It's a bit too mischevious. We must present a constructive and practical front.

 

There may, however, be some mileage in pursuing a planning objection to the Haymarket Memorial's removal. We wouldn't win, but the process would have to take its statutory course ... with (presumably) some degree of delay to the Haymarket section of the tramway project.

 

These are the kind of issues that will doubtless be discussed by Ulysses' proposed 'brains trust'. At that point we could perhaps seek professional advice.

[Devorgilla]

 

Link here to some of the council docs including a location plan if anyone wants a look: http://citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk/WAM/showCaseFile.do?appType=DC&appNumber=08/00980/PA

 

Seems to be details for the tram stop next to the railway station? The plans didn't seem to include details in the vicinity of the Memorial? However proposals for the memorial are mentioned on this particular page (a move of about 1.1m):

 

http://citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk/WAM/doc/Page-8?extension=.pdf&page=8&wmTransparency=0&id=693424&wmLocation=0&location=VOLUME1&contentType=application%2Fpdf&wmName=&pageCount=20

 

(Is also page 42 of 54 of the whole application, which is page 8 of 20 of the second part of the application PDF).

 

And the approval only seems to mention need for submission and agreement of a method statement for works to Memorial. See:

 

http://citydev-portal.edinburgh.gov.uk/WAM/doc/Page-8?extension=.pdf&page=8&wmTransparency=0&id=707145&wmLocation=0&location=VOLUME1&contentType=application%2Fpdf&wmName=&pageCount=17

 

The application is for "prior approval". Think a planner would need to be asked as to exactly what that means.

 

Hope some of this helps.

[Jammy Git]

Good luck.

 

http://blogs.row-z.co.uk/hearts/2008/09/edinburgh-city-council-bulldoz.html

[DMcNay]

Hi there,

 

Just registered to let you know that Jack Alexander posted this on my forum, The Scottish War Memorials Project, and I have posted it on the Great War Forum.

 

I'm sure the members of both forums will be more than willing to lend a hand in whatever capacity is required.

 

I thought I'd quote a passage that was written by the Rector of Kilmarnock Academy after the Second World War. It's a passage that perhaps Edinburgh Council might like to consider, especially the second sentence.

 

"The inescapable fact about a war memorial is that it must be a memorial of war, with all that that implies of heartbreak, suffering, and the premature and seemingly fortuitous extinction of hope and promise.

 

It is well that, if sacrifice is not again to prove vain, succeeding generations should not forget these bitter realities."

 

Regards,

 

David McNay