Inclusion, integration, beliefs

[Jim_Duncan]

I thought this was a really interesting story. 
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68731366

 

I can see both sides, TBH. I wonder if there is anyone else behind encouraging the girls to pray, such as local faith leaders? 

[JudyJudyJudy]

4 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

I thought this was a really interesting story. 
 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68731366

 

I can see both sides, TBH. I wonder if there is anyone else behind encouraging the girls to pray, such as local faith leaders? 

Keep any religions out of schools

[Jim_Duncan]

I agree, but let’s make this a thread for discussion, not the same old statements that appear in other threads.
 

What is it about religion that makes it such a divisive issue in schools? Is it about identity? Is it about freedom? Is it about fear?

 

This was also on the front page of the BBC today: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/68739487

 

 
 

 

 

[Lord Montpelier]

Right decision. We should have more non faith schools about time kids were taught to not bow down to fictional sky fairies that are the source of many conflicts in the world. 

[Jim_Duncan]

1 minute ago, Lord Montpelier said:

Right decision. We should have more non faith schools about time kids were taught to not bow down to fictional sky fairies that are the source of many conflicts in the world. 

Yes, but (playing devils advocate) is this going to stoke anger rather than solve the issue? I realise that’s not the court’s place to decide, but it’ll be interesting to see what happens next. 

[Lord Montpelier]

Just now, Jim_Duncan said:

Yes, but (playing devils advocate) is this going to stoke anger rather than solve the issue? I realise that’s not the court’s place to decide, but it’ll be interesting to see what happens next. 

Maybe.

If it does I'm sure other schools are available to move to if they feel that strongly about it. 

[hughesie27]

It starts and ends with the opening line from the judge that they lassie and her family knew what they were signing up to.

 

Having said that I don't see any reason why they can't offer private prayer rooms out of class time for them. Do what you want in your spare time and all that. Also keeps it away from the other kids if they are concerned about an "us and them" issue developing.

[Jim_Duncan]

4 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

It starts and ends with the opening line from the judge that they lassie and her family knew what they were signing up to.

 

Having said that I don't see any reason why they can't offer private prayer rooms out of class time for them. Do what you want in your spare time and all that. Also keeps it away from the other kids if they are concerned about an "us and them" issue developing.

This is one of the issue that this case exposes, IMO. There appears, among certain religious groups, to be a faith-first approach to identity which perhaps prevents folk pulling in a common direction for the country, to the detriment of all. 

[Lord Montpelier]

The school seems to be performing very well. I wouldn't let any of this creep in to threaten that. 

[Cade]

I'm all for keeping faith out of schools.

The whole point of things like school uniforms is so every pupil is to be treated the same, with nobody being elevate or put down when compared to any other pupil.

 

But the school in question sounds more like a concentration camp with all those bonkers rules.

They should have expected a large scale reaction against such a strict environment.

 

 

[Benny Klack]

1 hour ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Keep any religions out of schools

Such a lazy knee jerk statement. 

[Ked]

13 minutes ago, Benny Klack said:

Such a lazy knee jerk statement. 

Steady on.

I think most right thinking people agree no?

 

 

 

 

[queensferryjambo]

1 hour ago, hughesie27 said:

Having said that I don't see any reason why they can't offer private prayer rooms out of class time for them. 

 

Unfortunately if you allow one religion a room surely everyone else of any other faith are well within their rights to demand a room as well. In fact I would say that if this prayer room was granted a pile of other people would be demanding rooms out of principle or just being trouble makers. 

 

There are 4000+ recognised religions in the world but even if you stuck to Buddhism, Hinuism, Christianity Catholic & Prodestant, Judaism and Islam things would start to get a bit messy.

 

I am all for giving the Church of Satan and the Jedi's their own room, but where do you stop?

[Benny Klack]

Mmm not sure what most “right thinking” people would say to be honest.

 

From personal experience of going to a faith school I was taught about all the different beliefs, on top of my own, and respect for all religions and most importantly a person’s right to choose.

 

I didn’t (and don’t) have a problem with anyone attending a faith school.

 

Unfortunately the same could not be said for a hell of a lot of other folks when they saw my school uniform. Perhaps more schools should educate kids better on religion and respecting other people’s choices.

 

Just find it a very easy trope to blame faith schools for religious intolerance. In my experience it’s the opposite. 

[Benny Klack]

23 minutes ago, Ked said:

Steady on.

I think most right thinking people agree no?

 

 

 

 

Sorry, my previous post was in response to your question. 

[Ked]

2 minutes ago, Benny Klack said:

Sorry, my previous post was in response to your question. 

I agree .

And I don't.

School should be secular for lots of good reasons.

But I think I'm right when I say schools faith based perform better.

That I'd say would be more down to family discipline.

 I take it you went to Catholic school?

Actually you were probably right about Judy's post.

Fek him.

😄

[queensferryjambo]

1 minute ago, Benny Klack said:

Mmm not sure what most “right thinking” people would say to be honest.

 

From personal experience of going to a faith school I was taught about all the different beliefs, on top of my own, and respect for all religions and most importantly a person’s right to choose.

 

I didn’t (and don’t) have a problem with anyone attending a faith school.

 

Unfortunately the same could not be said for a hell of a lot of other folks when they saw my school uniform. Perhaps more schools should educate kids better on religion and respecting other people’s choices.

 

Just find it a very easy trope to blame faith schools for religious intolerance. In my experience it’s the opposite. 

 

 

When I went to High school it was a non denominational school. Religious education was mandatory and covered all major religions in first and second year unless your parents objected and opted you out.

 

The children of two religions who were opted out by their parents were Jehovah Witnesses and Muslims. This was 100% the case for every year at school I was there for 5 years. They had no interest in exposing their children to anything other than their own faith. That is of course their prerogative, but I think that had they attended these classes I very much doubt it would have had any effect on their children practicing their own faiths.

 

One thing I will say is I don't remember anyone ever feeling any kind of animosity towards the kids of other religions who never attended we just never thought that much about it at that age. 

 

This was in the 1980s so not sure if this is how it is done nowadays. 

[Benny Klack]

8 minutes ago, queensferryjambo said:

 

 

When I went to High school it was a non denominational school. Religious education was mandatory and covered all major religions in first and second year unless your parents objected and opted you out.

 

The children of two religions who were opted out by their parents were Jehovah Witnesses and Muslims. This was 100% the case for every year at school I was there for 5 years. They had no interest in exposing their children to anything other than their own faith. That is of course their prerogative, but I think that had they attended these classes I very much doubt it would have had any effect on their children practicing their own faiths.

 

One thing I will say is I don't remember anyone ever feeling any kind of animosity towards the kids of other religions who never attended we just never thought that much about it at that age. 

 

This was in the 1980s so not sure if this is how it is done nowadays. 

Yeah, not sure why the parents of those kids would feel that way to be honest.

 

As said my experience was pretty different - I just think it’s too easy to say faith schools = bad.

 

Personally I think religious intolerance comes from the home and not the school. 

[queensferryjambo]

Just now, Benny Klack said:

Yeah, not sure why the parents of those kids would feel that way to be honest.

 

As said my experience was pretty different - I just think it’s too easy to say faith schools = bad.

 

Personally I think religious intolerance comes from the home and not the school. 

 

I absolutely agree, one thing that is in the mixer nowadays that fans the flames of intolerance is the internet.

 

Twitter is a sewer of hatred.

[Benny Klack]

8 minutes ago, queensferryjambo said:

 

I absolutely agree, one thing that is in the mixer nowadays that fans the flames of intolerance is the internet.

 

Twitter is a sewer of hatred.

👍

[JudyJudyJudy]

1 hour ago, Ked said:

I agree .

And I don't.

School should be secular for lots of good reasons.

But I think I'm right when I say schools faith based perform better.

That I'd say would be more down to family discipline.

 I take it you went to Catholic school?

Actually you were probably right about Judy's post.

Fek him.

😄

What ! 

[Greedy Jambo]

I can see this thread getting banned. 

 

[hughesie27]

1 hour ago, queensferryjambo said:

 

Unfortunately if you allow one religion a room surely everyone else of any other faith are well within their rights to demand a room as well. In fact I would say that if this prayer room was granted a pile of other people would be demanding rooms out of principle or just being trouble makers. 

 

There are 4000+ recognised religions in the world but even if you stuck to Buddhism, Hinuism, Christianity Catholic & Prodestant, Judaism and Islam things would start to get a bit messy.

 

I am all for giving the Church of Satan and the Jedi's their own room, but where do you stop?

You use the same room, like airports etc. Praying doesn't take long. 

[Greedy Jambo]

Go in to work tomorrow and ask for a seperate room to pray in. 

Report back here. 

[Morgan]

Do they not need a wall to wail at?  🤷🏿‍♂️

[queensferryjambo]

5 minutes ago, hughesie27 said:

You use the same room, like airports etc. Praying doesn't take long. 

 

That doesn't sound very practical. The school in the article has 350 Muslim pupils. Looking at the 5 times of the day when Muslims pray it would have to be lunch break. Their prayers take 10 to 15 minutes each. You would have to have a big hall not a room.

 

One of the biggest problems seems to have been that Muslim pupils were intimidating all the other Muslim pupils into praying as well, along with a few other things they intimidated other Muslim pupils to do.

 

Had they been given a prayer room it sounds like 350 pupils would have been pressured into having to pray in this room.

 

Throw in anyone else from other faiths and it is going to be more than busy. I am also thinking that considering the intimidation towards the Muslim students by other Muslim students the people doing the intimidation might not be too happy sharing with other faiths. 

 

There is a lot more going on at this school than just a simple prayer room. The article from January says more about intimidation, death and bomb threats if you have a look at it. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68013174 

 

Either way it's an interesting topic for many reasons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jim_Duncan]

7 minutes ago, queensferryjambo said:

 

That doesn't sound very practical. The school in the article has 350 Muslim pupils. Looking at the 5 times of the day when Muslims pray it would have to be lunch break. Their prayers take 10 to 15 minutes each. You would have to have a big hall not a room.

 

One of the biggest problems seems to have been that Muslim pupils were intimidating all the other Muslim pupils into praying as well, along with a few other things they intimidated other Muslim pupils to do.

 

Had they been given a prayer room it sounds like 350 pupils would have been pressured into having to pray in this room.

 

Throw in anyone else from other faiths and it is going to be more than busy. I am also thinking that considering the intimidation towards the Muslim students by other Muslim students the people doing the intimidation might not be too happy sharing with other faiths. 

 

There is a lot more going on at this school than just a simple prayer room. The article from January says more about intimidation, death and bomb threats if you have a look at it. 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68013174 

 

Either way it's an interesting topic for many reasons.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing that article, couldn’t find any breadcrumbs back the way. 
 

This is a great example, I’d say, of the serious challenges facing a multicultural society in which practices from some groups are at odds with existing norms and practices. It is incumbent on all to find a reasonable route through such difficulties. 

[Gizmo]

 

29 minutes ago, Greedy Jambo said:

Go in to work tomorrow and ask for a seperate room to pray in. 

Report back here. 

No need, we have one 🙏🏼

[Jim_Duncan]

37 minutes ago, Greedy Jambo said:

Go in to work tomorrow and ask for a seperate room to pray in. 

Report back here. 

I work from home. Will be converting the wife’s wardrobe into my prayer space. 
 

 

[queensferryjambo]

9 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

Thanks for sharing that article, couldn’t find any breadcrumbs back the way. 
 

This is a great example, I’d say, of the serious challenges facing a multicultural society in which practices from some groups are at odds with existing norms and practices. It is incumbent on all to find a reasonable route through such difficulties. 

 

Yes there are a few related articles, just in case you or anyone else hasn't seen them - 

 

These ones from the pupil who wants the prayer room point of view 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68000098

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68170336 

 

One about the head teacher as well 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64187298

 

 

[Jim_Duncan]

10 minutes ago, queensferryjambo said:

 

Yes there are a few related articles, just in case you or anyone else hasn't seen them - 

 

These ones from the pupil who wants the prayer room point of view 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68000098

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68170336 

 

One about the head teacher as well 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64187298

 

 

The more I hear about that school the more I like it. Proper rules, focus on learning and getting learners prepared for the outside world in which having a bit of steel and putting in the hard yards may just pay dividends. 

[il Duce McTarkin]

3 hours ago, Ked said:

 

Actually you were probably right about Judy's post.

Fek him.

😄

 

 

24 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

The more I hear about that school the more I like it. Proper rules, focus on learning and getting learners prepared for the outside world in which having a bit of steel and putting in the hard yards may just pay dividends. 

 

It's a decent start, but not enough focus on corporal punishment, imo.

[il Duce McTarkin]

45 minutes ago, queensferryjambo said:

 

 

One about the head teacher as well 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-64187298

 

 

 

[Jim_Duncan]

3 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

[il Duce McTarkin]

 

12 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

 

[luckyBatistuta]

6 hours ago, JudyJudyJudy said:

Keep any religions out of schools

Agree with this James. Not got a problem with anyone following whichever religious beliefs they want, but do it in your own time if it’s so important to you. 

[luckyBatistuta]

3 hours ago, Greedy Jambo said:

I can see this thread getting banned. 

 

Maybe a few posters first😁

[Jim_Duncan]

14 minutes ago, luckyBatistuta said:

Agree with this James. Not got a problem with anyone following whichever religious beliefs they want, but do it in your own time if it’s so important to you. 

I think this is the problem nowadays. People are obsessed with themselves and their identity (encouraged to pigeon hole themselves on social media) that anything that may present even a practical obstacle to that is taken as an outrageous slight on the ‘victim’. 

Edited April 16 by Jim_Duncan

[Jim_Duncan]

24 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

 

 

Spoiler

Preferred Ken over Ryu, though. 

 

Edited April 16 by Jim_Duncan

[luckyBatistuta]

4 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

I think this the problem nowadays. People are obsessed with themselves and their identity (encouraged to pigeon hole) themselves on social media, that anything that may present even a practical obstacle to that is taken as an outrageous slight on the ‘victim’. 

Exactly Jim🙄

 

I fell out with a mate over this very subject recently. He’s a catholic and instantly thought I was having a go at Catholic schools, he was totally against it. I have no agenda whatsoever against Catholic schools or any other of sorts. By having them though, you’re just creating a divide amongst children from an early age. If anyone wants to personally follow a faith then that’s your prerogative. I don’t have a problem with it, just don’t try to push your faith on my kids. I send them to school to learn, so they can hopefully have themselves a nice career and life, not to have someone else’s fairy stories pushed upon them. They can make those choices themselves if they want to in their own free time…not school time.

[Jim_Duncan]

2 minutes ago, luckyBatistuta said:

Exactly Jim🙄

 

I fell out with a mate over this very subject recently. He’s a catholic and instantly thought I was having a go at Catholic schools, he was totally against it. I have no agenda whatsoever against Catholic schools or any other of sorts. By having them though, you’re just creating a divide amongst children from an early age. If anyone wants to personally follow a faith then that’s your prerogative. I don’t have a problem with it, just don’t try to push your faith on my kids. I send them to school to learn, so they can hopefully have themselves a nice career and life, not to have someone else’s fairy stories pushed upon them. They can make those choices themselves if they want to in their own free time…not school time.

I find it sad that people wish their religious beliefs (or anything other ideology for that matter) to play a prominent role in their children’s academic education. 
 

 

[il Duce McTarkin]

49 minutes ago, luckyBatistuta said:

 

I have no agenda whatsoever against Catholic schools 

 

 

What?

 

[luckyBatistuta]

34 minutes ago, il Duce McTarkin said:

 

What?

 

[Nookie Bear]

The school is almost 50% Muslim 

 

Seems astonishing to us living in Scotland tbh

[queensferryjambo]

3 hours ago, Nookie Bear said:

The school is almost 50% Muslim 

 

Seems astonishing to us living in Scotland tbh

 

 

It depends were you live in Scotland I suppose, same as where you stay in England.

 

I am sure there are Islamic faith schools in Glasgow and there are plans for one in Edinburgh as we speak on the Calder Road although it doesn't look very big (https://edenschooledinburgh.org/). 

 

I am not sure if they are state funded or privately funded. I do know one in Glasgow tried for state funding, but unsure how they got on.

 

Either way if you are a Muslim in Scotland and want to attend a faith school it looks like there are at least options at least in the 2 main cities.

 

 

[luckyBatistuta]

4 minutes ago, queensferryjambo said:

 

 

It depends were you live in Scotland I suppose, same as where you stay in England.

 

I am sure there are Islamic faith schools in Glasgow and there are plans for one in Edinburgh as we speak on the Calder Road although it doesn't look very big (https://edenschooledinburgh.org/). 

 

I am not sure if they are state funded or privately funded. I do know one in Glasgow tried for state funding, but unsure how they got on.

 

Either way if you are a Muslim in Scotland and want to attend a faith school it looks like there are at least options at least in the 2 main cities.

 

 

I just don’t think these schools are healthy going forward. If we all want to get on, then why are we trying to divide and distance children from a young age. Surely the world would be a better place if the next generation grow up together as one. 

[Ulysses]

41 minutes ago, luckyBatistuta said:

I just don’t think these schools are healthy going forward. If we all want to get on, then why are we trying to divide and distance children from a young age. Surely the world would be a better place if the next generation grow up together as one. 

 

We aren't.  Somebody else is.

[I P Knightley]

18 hours ago, Jim_Duncan said:

I agree, but let’s make this a thread for discussion, not the same old statements that appear in other threads.
 

What is it about religion that makes it such a divisive issue in schools? Is it about identity? Is it about freedom? Is it about fear?

 

This was also on the front page of the BBC today: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/olympics/68739487

I find Birbalsingh odious. I think she runs that school as much for her own benefit and profile as for that of the pupils. I'd be interested to know what their policy is for entering pupils to the exams that led to that 'outstanding' Ofsted judgement. 

 

You've titled the thread as "Integration" and "Inclusion" of beliefs but what I understand her to be doing is to drive ignorance and intolerance. 

 

"Don't come round these parts with your beliefs and your praying; I don't want other pupils to see it or hear of it."

 

Whilst religion is horribly divisive, you don't build tolerance by putting it in a dark corner. 

[BlueRiver]

If the school is explicitly one that states its a religion free zone then I quite honestly don't understand what the complaints are. 

 

**** off to another one. This school hasn't hidden the rules you have to follow. 

 

This student herself used to avail herself of making up for her missed prayers at the end of the day which Islam allows for. What changed that this suddenly became unpalatable? 

[Ulysses]

15 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

 

"Don't come round these parts with your beliefs and your praying; I don't want other pupils to see it or hear of it."

 

 

I wouldn't be a fan of Birbalsingh either, but did she say that?

 

In the article linked in the OP she was quoted as saying: 

 

"Multiculturalism can only succeed when we understand that every group must make sacrifices for the sake of the whole. We allow our children freedoms of all sorts, as long as those freedoms do not threaten the happiness and success of the whole school community"

 

It has also been reported that the student who took the case intends to stay in the school, and that the student's family plans to send another child to the school while also taking a different legal action against the school.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/prayer-ban-muslim-britain-strictist-school-b2529351.html

 

There's more going on here than meets the eye. 

 

I've also noticed that the organisations whose philosophical views are closest to mine (the National Secular Society and Humanists UK) have welcomed the court decision.