Inclusion, integration, beliefs

[Harry Potter]

15 hours ago, Greedy Jambo said:

Go in to work tomorrow and ask for a seperate room to pray in. 

Report back here. 

lucky to have a bog in my work😕.

[I P Knightley]

4 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I wouldn't be a fan of Birbalsingh either, but did she say that?

 

In the article linked in the OP she was quoted as saying: 

 

"Multiculturalism can only succeed when we understand that every group must make sacrifices for the sake of the whole. We allow our children freedoms of all sorts, as long as those freedoms do not threaten the happiness and success of the whole school community"

 

It has also been reported that the student who took the case intends to stay in the school, and that the student's family plans to send another child to the school while also taking a different legal action against the school.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/prayer-ban-muslim-britain-strictist-school-b2529351.html

 

There's more going on here than meets the eye. 

 

I've also noticed that the organisations whose philosophical views are closest to mine (the National Secular Society and Humanists UK) have welcomed the court decision.

 

That was me reading between the lines and making my own exaggerated interpretation of her intolerance. 

 

The school's website no longer has its list of governors (or at least, I couldn't find it) but one of its early governors - may have been Chair - was Suella Braverman. I wanted to check the current make up as something in the back of my mind is saying that it's not too far off being the front row of a National Conservativism rally. 

[doctor jambo]

18 hours ago, Cade said:

I'm all for keeping faith out of schools.

The whole point of things like school uniforms is so every pupil is to be treated the same, with nobody being elevate or put down when compared to any other pupil.

 

But the school in question sounds more like a concentration camp with all those bonkers rules.

They should have expected a large scale reaction against such a strict environment.

 

 

Except the kids do brilliantly .

Id remove all ideology from school.

Strict hair policy , piercing rules, gender neutral uniform .

No gods, no pronouns.

[Jim_Duncan]

40 minutes ago, I P Knightley said:

I find Birbalsingh odious. I think she runs that school as much for her own benefit and profile as for that of the pupils. I'd be interested to know what their policy is for entering pupils to the exams that led to that 'outstanding' Ofsted judgement. 

 

You've titled the thread as "Integration" and "Inclusion" of beliefs but what I understand her to be doing is to drive ignorance and intolerance. 

 

"Don't come round these parts with your beliefs and your praying; I don't want other pupils to see it or hear of it."

 

Whilst religion is horribly divisive, you don't build tolerance by putting it in a dark corner. 

I don’t disagree with your last paragraph. 
 

However, integration and cohesiveness, by definition, require some give and take. 
 

The pupil (clearly encouraged by her mother and doubtless other interested parties) and her actions may have been seen as the thin end of the wedge.
 

There are elements of religious rituals and behaviours that, for better or worse, do not function well within broader cultural and, in this case, specific institutional norms. How compatible the right to practice these rituals and behaviours are with the right of these institutions to maintain what they see as benefits for the group as a whole, is the issue. The school is not trying to impact on her beliefs, but rather on her right to do so in a way that may have a detrimental impact on the group as a whole. 

[Jim_Duncan]

20 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I wouldn't be a fan of Birbalsingh either, but did she say that?

 

In the article linked in the OP she was quoted as saying: 

 

"Multiculturalism can only succeed when we understand that every group must make sacrifices for the sake of the whole. We allow our children freedoms of all sorts, as long as those freedoms do not threaten the happiness and success of the whole school community"

 

It has also been reported that the student who took the case intends to stay in the school, and that the student's family plans to send another child to the school while also taking a different legal action against the school.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/prayer-ban-muslim-britain-strictist-school-b2529351.html

 

There's more going on here than meets the eye. 

 

I've also noticed that the organisations whose philosophical views are closest to mine (the National Secular Society and Humanists UK) have welcomed the court decision.

 

Do you suspect, as I do, that there are background actors within the faith’s community pushing this to enable a discrimination case/narrative?

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, I P Knightley said:

That was me reading between the lines and making my own exaggerated interpretation of her intolerance. 

 

The school's website no longer has its list of governors (or at least, I couldn't find it) but one of its early governors - may have been Chair - was Suella Braverman. I wanted to check the current make up as something in the back of my mind is saying that it's not too far off being the front row of a National Conservativism rally. 

 

I was also intrigued to read in one article that the school has always declared itself as secular, but only introduced the no-prayer policy after some of the students tried to pray in the yard together but broke another rule in doing so.  At least one news report says that students were intimidated by other students and that a bomb threat was made against the school.

 

Definitely more here than meets the eye.

[Ulysses]

1 minute ago, Jim_Duncan said:

Do you suspect, as I do, that there are background actors within the faith’s community pushing this to enable a discrimination case/narrative?

 

I'll put it like this.  When we chose schools, their ethos was front and centre of our decision-making process.  We unequivocally wanted schools that directly reflected our philosophical standpoint. If we couldn't get those, we wanted schools that explicitly created space for that standpoint and didn't try to suppress it.  We got those, as it happened.  If subsequently something had gone wrong, we might have taken a legal case.  But if we had, and if we'd lost, we'd have done our level best to end our association with the school.  If circumstances prevented us from doing that, we'd have put up with things, but we wouldn't have contemplated another legal action.  

 

That's my explanation from the point of view of someone who has a strongly committed viewpoint, but who doesn't expect everyone else to see things the same way.  Others may (and do) have different approaches to mine.

[Jim_Duncan]

24 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I'll put it like this.  When we chose schools, their ethos was front and centre of our decision-making process.  We unequivocally wanted schools that directly reflected our philosophical standpoint. If we couldn't get those, we wanted schools that explicitly created space for that standpoint and didn't try to suppress it.  We got those, as it happened.  If subsequently something had gone wrong, we might have taken a legal case.  But if we had, and if we'd lost, we'd have done our level best to end our association with the school.  If circumstances prevented us from doing that, we'd have put up with things, but we wouldn't have contemplated another legal action.  

 

That's my explanation from the point of view of someone who has a strongly committed viewpoint, but who doesn't expect everyone else to see things the same way.  Others may (and do) have different approaches to mine.

Off-topic a little, but I've had quite the eye-opener with what my sons tell me about the curriculum at their primary school here in Edinburgh. 

[Jim_Duncan]

42 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

I was also intrigued to read in one article that the school has always declared itself as secular, but only introduced the no-prayer policy after some of the students tried to pray in the yard together but broke another rule in doing so.  At least one news report says that students were intimidated by other students and that a bomb threat was made against the school.

 

Definitely more here than meets the eye.

 

Just as no child is born racist, no child is born following a particular religion.

[Ulysses]

13 minutes ago, Jim_Duncan said:

 

Just as no child is born racist, no child is born following a particular religion.

 

That's why religious groups obsess over schools.

 

Religious faiths differ from each other, but they all share a fundamental flaw, which is their belief in something that is as unreasonable as it is impossible. 

 

They can't admit to that flaw, but the people who climb to the top of their power structures are clever enough to realise that the only way - the only possible way - to keep such an illogical intellectual artifice alive is to hardwire it into the minds of children. If children weren't constantly told that this stuff is true by their parents and teachers it would go out of fashion in two generations.

 

That's why schools matter to religious groups.  Sometimes other political reasons come into play as well, but religions have always tried to exercise control over schools and they always will.

[John Findlay]

8 minutes ago, Ulysses said:

 

That's why religious groups obsess over schools.

 

Religious faiths differ from each other, but they all share a fundamental flaw, which is their belief in something that is as unreasonable as it is impossible. 

 

They can't admit to that flaw, but the people who climb to the top of their power structures are clever enough to realise that the only way - the only possible way - to keep such an illogical intellectual artifice alive is to hardwire it into the minds of children. If children weren't constantly told that this stuff is true by their parents and teachers it would go out of fashion in two generations.

 

That's why schools matter to religious groups.  Sometimes other political reasons come into play as well, but religions have always tried to exercise control over schools and they always will.

When did the local priest banish you?🤣

[main]

The arguments around faith schools are like many others, being dressed up as a new debate when in fact it is boring and tedious beyond belief. Fwiw, possibly the biggest single reason why religious(Christian) schools are still in operation and doing well in comparison to others is parents faking belief to get their children into a better school. Why they do that is another question but it makes a mockery of the ‘sky fairies vs sensible secular schools’ argument. 

[Jim_Duncan]

2 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

That's why religious groups obsess over schools.

 

Religious faiths differ from each other, but they all share a fundamental flaw, which is their belief in something that is as unreasonable as it is impossible. 

 

They can't admit to that flaw, but the people who climb to the top of their power structures are clever enough to realise that the only way - the only possible way - to keep such an illogical intellectual artifice alive is to hardwire it into the minds of children. If children weren't constantly told that this stuff is true by their parents and teachers it would go out of fashion in two generations.

 

That's why schools matter to religious groups.  Sometimes other political reasons come into play as well, but religions have always tried to exercise control over schools and they always will.

 

1 hour ago, John Findlay said:

When did the local priest banish you?🤣

 

Coloured in Jesus wrong at Sunday school is what I heard, John.

[i8hibsh]

Teach kids how to think, not what to think.

[Generic Username]

I enjoyed religious education at high school but that was primarily because my teacher looked like Ned Flanders and did not enjoy being reminded of this fact. 

[PortyJambo]

2 minutes ago, Generic Username said:

I enjoyed religious education at high school but that was primarily because my teacher looked like Ned Flanders and did not enjoy being reminded of this fact. 

RE at my High School was the only time I saw a teacher running crying out the room (never to return). She was pretty hopeless but, in hindsight, kids can be very cruel!

[Mikey1874]

 

[Ulysses]

7 hours ago, John Findlay said:

When did the local priest banish you?🤣

 

Never met him.

 

Happy birthday, by the way.   

[Sydney]

At our non-denominational state primary school in Edinburgh in the 1980s, it was still a protestant minister who came in every week and we all had to sing hymns (All things bright and beautiful being one I remember).  A teacher would play the piano.

[John Findlay]

9 hours ago, Ulysses said:

 

Never met him.

 

Happy birthday, by the way.   

Thanks very much.

I never met mine either.